Breivik et al Continued: Organized Political Terrorism - The Norwegian Massacre, the State, the Media and Israel

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Tue, 2011-08-02 17:47

Mr.Tea

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Here are some other sources and one thing is clear. None of them accept his ideology as Zionist but they all spoke out because it is a big part of his manifesto. Instead of that kind of denial on babble we got pro Israel activists attacking the messenger as anti-Semitic. I prefer knowing what this man is actually promoting even if it is a mish mash of politically irrational thought.

You're completely ridiculous. Now anyone who objects to your promoting ludicruous conspiracy theories without so much as a thread of evidence, written by a known anti-Semite are now "pro Israel activists"? The scary part is that I think this isn't just some cheapt rhetorical device. You actually seem to believe this shit...

How gives a shit if this guy thought of himself as a zionist, whatever his warped understanding of that now meaningless term to be. The guy who shot Congresswoman Gifford listed The Communist Manifesto as one of his favourite books. Does that, therefore, discredit the entire ideology of what might be called "socialism"? Should all people on the left be assumed to support his shooting spree in Arizona? Should we speculate as to whether Cuba may have been behind it (the complete lack of any evidence notwithstanding) because the guy had a "socialist" book?

Tue, 2011-08-02 18:59

#53

Buddy Kat

Excellant read and educational....For the life of me I can't figure out how the public doesn't see the realtionship between the hardcore conservative kid killer from Norway and the NATO soldier...both branded with the hardcore conservative stamp of approval and in the case of the NATO soldier they are probably killing an innocent child as I type and getting away with it..SAD and Shameful but 100% true. A testament to the moron phrse in the story.

No question there is a strong neocon connection to these attrocities and they are right branding it right wing terrorism ...cause that's exact;ly what it is. There is also no contest connecting it all to the ones with the power and control over the conservatives, and it sure aint the socialist countries of the world , that's for sure.

Tue, 2011-08-02 20:31

#54

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Erik Redburn wrote:

Oh spare us the broad characterizations Shoveller. I have *never* defended the Zionist campaign to destroy the Palstinian people. I do however question THAT paticular angle put out by THAt paticular author. Not a real subtle distincton, nor one wich should be too diffucult to respect by anyone concerned about equality.

Take the chip of your shoulder. I didn't mention you and did not have you in mind.

I meant Mr. Tea and to some extent Bekayne. Note how Mr. Tea is now implying I am anti-Semitic.

Did anyone read the links I posted which are to MSM Jewish sites. Apparently this man's believes can only be discussed on those sites and anyone else seeking to analysis this aspect of his rant is anti-Semitic. Those are the tactics of Israeli apologists and they are all over the internet. When he called me a two bit anti-Semite I knew for sure what he is.

If Mr. Tea had started out with an analysis of the piece I would have reacted differently to him but he did not. He jumped to character assination of the author and absurd comments like no one was justifying thei terrorists actions.

Tue, 2011-08-02 20:34

#55

MegB

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Please stop trying to stifle debate that makes you uncomfortable.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

Be that as it may, there is so much about Israel's apartheid domestic policy, all based in proven fact, that any principled person with an inkling of history will be justifiably outraged. I draw the line, however, at conspiracy-theorist drivel.

The people who are uncomfortable with this debate are those who stick to a rigid ideology that refuses to embrace subtlety, nuance and political complexity. You can't bully people into compliance with a reactionary position.

Tue, 2011-08-02 20:39

#56

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Rebecca West wrote:

You can't bully people into compliance with a reactionary position.

Quote:

No doubt, he probably thinks that we started the Reichstag fire as well. He has a long history of Jew-baiting conspiracy nonsense including stating that Israel had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks and has written numerous other anti-semitic articles, including one in which he mocks Barack Obama as "America's First Jewish President". This sort of filth has no place in progressive discussions and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your peddling of anti-Semitic trash was inadvertent but please be more careful in what you quote.

But you can sure try.

Tue, 2011-08-02 21:04

#57

MegB

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Rebecca West wrote:

You can't bully people into compliance with a reactionary position.

But you can sure try.

There's a lot of that going around here - on all sides.

People who have been on babble for many years seem to have forgotten how much right-wing Israel-apologist crap we had to deal with when Bernie Farber was a frequent poster here and all these discussions were lumped into the Middle East forum. We lost a lot of great babble contributors over that toxic mess, and I'm trying to prevent a repeat performance.

[/end thread drift]

Tue, 2011-08-02 21:21

#58

Erik Redburn

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Erik Redburn wrote:

Oh spare us the broad characterizations Shoveller. I have *never* defended the Zionist campaign to destroy the Palstinian people. I do however question THAT paticular angle put out by THAt paticular author. Not a real subtle distincton, nor one wich should be too diffucult to respect by anyone concerned about equality.

Take the chip of your shoulder. I didn't mention you and did not have you in mind.

I meant Mr. Tea and to some extent Bekayne. Note how Mr. Tea is now implying I am anti-Semitic.

Did anyone read the links I posted which are to MSM Jewish sites. Apparently this man's believes can only be discussed on those sites and anyone else seeking to analysis this aspect of his rant is anti-Semitic. Those are the tactics of Israeli apologists and they are all over the internet. When he called me a two bit anti-Semite I knew for sure what he is.

If Mr. Tea had started out with an analysis of the piece I would have reacted differently to him but he did not. He jumped to character assination of the author and absurd comments like no one was justifying thei terrorists actions.

You weren't at all clear who you were referring to in your broad accusation of 'suppressing' debate here. If "Mr. Tea" or anyone else here starts to argue that any criticism of the Israeli regime is anti-Semitic (as was common in the 'good' old days here) then you can be sure I'll call him out on it too. There is as Rebeccca says a lot of good solid material on the crimes of that partiular racist regime, (the world is full of them) so there's no need to add lame conspiracies written by authors with questionable motives. Since NDPP couldn't even be bothgered to explain for myself, I'll just have to hope he'll be more careful in the future.

Tue, 2011-08-02 21:26

#59

Hoodeet

Responding to No. 17 - It seems that Northern Shoveler is unaware of the bloody history of the Iranian regime and the revolutionary guards, or has forgotten it. The thorough elimination of Communists and other secular leftists after 1979-80 (often accompanied by torture) and the persecution and killing of Baha'is, the sick "temporary marriages" into which female prisoners were forced to justify their rape by revolutionary guards or other creatures of the Ayatollah's regime, the draining of the blood of condemned prisoners on the eve of their execution so they had to be dragged or carried on stretchers to the scaffold or the firing squad... There are no known statistics on the number of persons killed since 1979 - it could go as high as 100,000, not counting all the youth sent into battle virtually unarmed against Saddam Hussein's chemicals and superior weaponry.

This is not to say that I agree with Israel's policies toward Palestinians. I don't. I know they have carried out somewhat limited massacres and they torture and assassinate and they are currently hold 10,000 Palestinian prisoners. Or perhaps it's just apples and oranges. Such comparisons can be odious.

As for Petras, I must admit that, even if he is one of the most solid analysts of Latin American politics alive today, I have found him increasingly irritating and obnoxious. His anti-Zionist position may, objectively, be accurate --even his intemperate slashing at Jewish dentists and insurance salesmen in the hinterland (which isn't far-fetched if we consider that most Jews are knee-jerk defenders of Israel and fight like hell to keep U.S. policy in line with support of Israel)-- but I look at it in the context of Latin America, where Nazi and other fascist ideologies are alive and well, where blood libel inherited from the Middle Ages dies hard, and where the dominant prejudice against Jews is a sick mix of the arch-Spanish-Catholic view of Jews as perfidious for killing Jesus and rejecting Christianity, with the Nazi and neo-Nazi ideas -- the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf and other canonical texts of anti-semitism are widely read and distributed and taken as gospel truth by many. Unfortunately, therefore, Mr. Petras speaks the language of the most vicious anti-Jewish Latin Americans, and that code cannot be misinterpreted in Latin America, where his main audiences are.

I confess that I too believe that there is a widespread and insidious influence of the Zionist agenda through AIPAC and Mossad agents and the very effective continual brainwashing of overseas Jews through synagogues, youth organizations, Hollywood, etc. , and that there are no extremes to which Israel will not go in order to protect its perceived interests and further its expansionist goals. It's just that I get a very queasy feeling about Petras and I can't accept his discourse because of the context in which and from which he expounds so blithely. As a long-time student of Latin America and a resident in countries where anti-Jewish attitudes are par for the course, Petras should know better than to keep using horrible Nazi and medieval code for Jews when referring to supporters of Israel.

Tue, 2011-08-02 22:16

#60

Mr.Tea

Northern Shoveler wrote:

If Mr. Tea had started out with an analysis of the piece I would have reacted differently to him but he did not. He jumped to character assination of the author and absurd comments like no one was justifying thei terrorists actions.

I have no interest in engaging in 'analysis' over an absurd conspiracy theory that Israel was somehow behind a massive conspiracy to murder to teenagers at a summer camp in Norway when there's not the tiniest shred of evidence to suggest so. Just as I have no interest in debating the accusation that Israel was responsible for a shark attack off the coast of Egypt, that they were behind 9/11, that the Holocaust was a hoax or that Elvis is still alive (a conspiracy theory that, at the very least, wouldn't be motivated by aject bigotry).

And I didn't engage in "character assassination" against the author, I quoted his own words to show that he has a bizarre pre-occupation with Israel and with Jews in general, characterizes Jews negatively and suggests that "Jewish dentists and podiatrists" are part of some vast conspiracy to control the media, the banks and the government and engages in all sorts of wild speculation without offering any shred of evidence.

Tue, 2011-08-02 23:23

#61

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Okay so you are saying that there are no dentists and podiatrists that send money to Israeli groups. Could you give us a breakdown of who it is that sends the millions of dollars to the settler groups that are engaged in ethnic cleansing? It must be someone right. I know I don't send them any money. He claims there are Israeli groups that are trying to control the MSM in North America. You don't think that is true? Well I do.

He is off the wall in his idea that this guy could not figure out how to set off a car bomb. Hell I could do that with no problem and my blasting ticket expired 30 years ago. However do I think that intelligence agencies are capable of doing illegal nasty things that kill innocent citizens? Absolutely. His piece strained credibility on a number of issues but it was not particularly anti-Semitic although it is clearly anti-Israel. You see I think that one does not equal the other and you can be very anti-Israel without bearing any malice against Jewish people who are not complicit in its crimes. Nor is it anti-Semitic IMO to say that some Jewish people who send money to settler organizations are complicit in crimes against humanity.

So with your nice handle I guess you are a big Koch brothers fan which would help explain your virulent attacks on a Marxist academic.

Tue, 2011-08-02 23:39

#62

Mr.Tea

You know, this is fucking ridiculous. You go around making wild accusations against people based on nothing. Apparently, not agreeing with the utter nonsense that Israel was behind the Norway attack makes on an "Israel apologist". Do you think that Stephen Harper was complicit in the Norway attack? If not, does that make you a "Harper supporter"?

And, yes, I attack a "Marxist academic" (as if that descriptor is remotely relevant) because he's clearly a lunatic who makes absurd accusations without a shred of evidence to back it up. That, apparently, means I'm in step with the Koch brothers. It's all a big conspiracy, you see. Your name is "Northern Shoveler". Does that mean you support the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan? For what it's worth, my last name is difficult to pronounce and starts with a "T" so people tend to call me "Mr. T". Though my patients tend to call me "Dr. T" when I'm doing their dental work in order to earn money to control the media and manipulate the government as I gather with podiatrists and insurance salesmen in our underground zionist lair...

Tue, 2011-08-02 23:50

#63

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Nice crab walking. Your handle here is TEA not T. Oh and by the way you noted that Red Tory Tea Girl and you had similar handles. Did you think it was because her name started with a T and was unpronounceable?

So who in america supports the Settler organizations? You claim his thoughts are absurd so tell us who it is so we can all see how absurd it is for him to make such a claim.

Oh and by the way I support the right of all the Afghanistan people from all groups to resist their occupiers and collaborators and I hope they drive NATO our of their country as soon as possible.

Tue, 2011-08-02 23:51

#64

MegB

@ NS:

My dentist is Muslim, so I'm pretty sure he isn't sending money to Israeli extremist groups. I'm also fairly certain he isn't sending money to any other flavour of extremist group.

Maybe there are few dentists who donate to extremist groups. I have no idea, and neither does the writer making the claim, since he offers no evidence.

Picking apart spurious arguments and damaging unsubstantiated claims is an important of babble life. Failing to do so because of fear of verbal reprisal or simple moral cowardice, is simply that - moral cowardice. It's no worse than taking the case of a welfare recipient defrauding the system and painting every person in poverty dependent on gov't income as a fraud. These are the ideas of people who refuse to think outside a very narrow and blaming scenario.

Wed, 2011-08-03 00:08

#65

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Quote:

The power of Israel in the US does not reside only in the influence and leadership of powerful Washington based “pro-Israel lobbies”, like AIPAC. Without the hundreds of thousands of militant locally based dentists, podiatrists, stockbrokers, real estate brokers,profesors and others, the “lobby” would be unable to sustain and implement its policy among hundreds of millions of Americans outside the major metropolises.

Just so the actual words being discussed are clear. I am sorry but I don't get him saying all Jewish dentists or podiatrists support Israel. I guess I just don't read between the lines well enough.

Are you really saying that the millions of dollars and local letters to the editor, etcetera are being sent by MacDonald's burger flippers and not well educated and sophisticated professionals? Or are you saying there is no pro-Israel lobby in the US and that the letters to the editors and the funds going to Israel are fabrications and don't really exist.

Wed, 2011-08-03 00:14

#66

Mr.Tea

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Nice crab walking. Your handle here is TEA not T. Oh and by the way you noted that Red Tory Tea Girl and you had similar handles. Did you think it was because her name started with a T and was unpronounceable?

Oh, for fuck's sake. Yes, it's Mr. TEA, a joke contrasting a mild-mannered tea-drinking Jewish dentist with the original Mr. T - a giant ass-kicker with a mohawk, covered in gold chains. If only you'd spend a fraction of the time you spent over-analyzing some guy's screen name on a message board on giving a tiny bit of analysis to some "marxist academic" spewing absurd accusations...

Apparently, enjoying a nice cup of tea makes oen a Koch brothers acolyte, just as dismissing the idea that Mosad plotted the Norway masscre makes one a "pro-Israel activist" and "zionist propagandist".

Wed, 2011-08-03 00:21

#67

Freedom 55

Professor Petras,

[img]http://flash.sonypictures.com/shared/tv/seinfeld/myspace/comments/anti-d...

Wed, 2011-08-03 00:46

#68

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Sorry for thinking a poster with the name Mr. Tea (who posted in support of Harper being given an honour, or how small business owners were the people terrorized during the G20 summit in TO or calling for harsh penalties for protestors because they were drunk) held right wing views and that the name meant something more than a reference to a nice cuppa.

As for my presumption you are an Israeli apologist I got that impression from your virulent attack on Unionist. How absurd of me to jump to such conclusions. It must mean I am a two bit anti-Semite, to use your words.

Wed, 2011-08-03 00:56

#69

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Perhaps this is off-topic, given the thread title, but:

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/07/married-lesbian-couple-saves-dozens-d...

Here is a bit of this story. These are brave women and if the story is accurate they saved many young lives. Maybe this will be something we can all agree on.

Quote:

Hege Dalen and her spouse, Toril Hansen were near Utöyan having dinner on the opposite shore across from the ill-fated campsite, when they began to hear gunfire and screaming on the island.

“We were eating. Then shooting and then the awful screaming. We saw how the young people ran in panic into the lake,” says Dale to HS in an interview.

The couple immediately took action and pushed the boat into Lake Tyrifjorden.

Dalen and Hansen drove the boat to the island, picked up from the water victims in shock in, the young and wounded, and transported them to the opposite shore to the mainland. Between runs they saw that the bullets had hit the right side of the boat.

Since there were so many and not all fit at once aboard, they returned to the island four times.

They were able to rescue 40 young people from the clutches of the killer.

Wed, 2011-08-03 01:30

#70

NDPP

Erik Redburn wrote:

Since NDPP couldn't even be bothgered to explain for myself, I'll just have to hope he'll be more careful in the future.

NDPP

I just returned from work. I needn't explain anything nor do I particularly care if you like the posting or not. And I have posted quite a number of pieces relating to Breivik of which this is only one. Please read them. As it was the first in this thread, I used it as a title as it is an expansive one which will cover the field and allow a range of postings. I obviously think it has something to contribute to a broader understanding of Breivik and the networks he connects to.

like that of the EDL-JDL - Wilders etc - I hope there are also those here who appreciate the implications and obligations to act against their agenda to further spread their Islamophobic hate propaganda here in Canada.

Wed, 2011-08-03 01:57

#71

NDPP

Islamophobia; Zionism and the Norway Massacre - by Ali Abunimah

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/2011829164395822.html

"...by criticising the ideology that inspired Breivik, and pointing the finger at a few of its purveyors, Foxman appears to be trying to obscure the key role that he and some other pro-Israel advocates have played in mainstreaming the poisonous Islamophobic rhetoric that has now - Foxman himself argues - led to bloodshed in Norway.

Foxman's claim that Breivik's support for Israel is 'bizarre' is a brazen attempt to deflect attention from the alliance that Foxman and leading Israeli politicians have made with the most racist Islamophobes...European ultra-nationalists, such as Dutch Islamophobe Geert Wilders, have put support for Israel's right-wing government at the centre of their policies...

anyone who wants to dissociate from ultranationalism, racism and Islamophobia, also has to repudiate Israel's state ideology, Zionism..."

Wed, 2011-08-03 03:38

#72

6079_Smith_W

Geez, how about rifling through my posting history on unrelated issues and working up a profile to tell me who and what I am, and what I think.

And some wonder why there are people who don't feel like posting under our real names here.

Right now I feel like heading for a shower.

(edit, a fair bit later)

NS,

I'm sorry if I overspoke, but this personal stuff is fucked up, Can we keep this on the issue, please?

As for my history.... feel tree.

Wed, 2011-08-03 03:50

#73

NDPP

[Breivik-JDL-EDL-Wilders-Neocons-Likud-Israel] Anders Breivik: Neo Conned - by Dr KR Bolton

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2011/07/29/anders-breivik-neo-conned/

"...The only 'Right' that Breivik can be said to identify with is the Zionist extreme Right. This calls to mind the likes of the Jewish Defence League, Likud, the settler movement etc...

It is just this type of alliance between the neo-cons, Zionists and the European 'right wing' that Breivik regards as a basis for the anti-Islamic civil war he hopes to foment in Europe. It is not an isolated phenomenon.

The well publicized English Defence League's anti-Muslim demonstrations and riots are marked by the number of Israeli flags appearing amidst their shaven headed ranks. Breivik regards the EDL as one of the better organizations..."

Unlike many Norwegians you can never say you didn't know...

'JDL-Canada Draws Hundreds To Highly Successful GEERT WILDERS Support Rally'

http://jdlcanada.wordpress.com/201/01/21/geert-wilders-solidarity-rally-...

"We are all Geert Wilders facing the same threat"

EDL Makes Links With Jewish Defence League in Canada

http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/edl-makes-link-with-jewish-d...

"...Over the past three to four months, the EDL has been trying to forge links internationally and has reached out to Dutch far-right politician Geert Wilders and US conservatives, he said. 'This is part of that attempt to forge international links,' Prof. Goodwin said of the Toronto rally.

The EDL support rally is advertised on the JDL website: 'JDL Supports The EDL' The announcement reads. 'The EDL needs international support to help it support the values of freedom that Britain was famous for and stop Political Islam...We must revive the Winston Churchill policy of direct confrontation to victory..'

This same Zio-Nazi hate network is now spreading their poison here - just days ago holding a rally at the Toronto District School Board against "Radical Islam in Toronto Schools'. It is this hate network that should be impugned and silenced, not the messenger or message that Breivik's evil is among us here now...

Wed, 2011-08-03 10:47

#74

6079_Smith_W

NDPP wrote:

. It is this hate network that should be impugned and silenced, not the messenger or message that Breivik's evil is among us here now...

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But I think it is also fair that any message should be held up to scrutiny. And sorry, the claims of direct links to the bombing, police complicity and accomplices in the article in the opening post is fiction. He does not present one shred of real evidence to back it up.

Wed, 2011-08-03 12:17

#75

NDPP

6079_Smith_W]</p> <p>[quote=NDPP wrote:

. It is this hate network that should be impugned and silenced, not the messenger or message that Breivik's evil is among us here now...

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But I think it is also fair that any message should be held up to scrutiny.

NDPP:

But they AREN'T, only those dealing with Zionism. Support for all things Zionist is deeply entrenched here, even amongst some 'progressives', who become hysterical in defence of Israel wherever and whenever it is criticized, frequently accompanied by that tired old gambit the allegation of anti-Semitism. The present denial of the Zionist linkage to Breivik is part and parcel of the same pathology that continues to protect, Israel and the JDL-EDL hate network's expansion and organizing, here - such as the JDL's Islamophobic TDSB demo - widely supported, even on this board. Both the government and official opposition are already at item numerous times for their support of Zionism and Israel. The collusion of the NDP with Israel to sabotage the recent Gaza initiative is just the latest example.

"Canada is so friendly there is no need to convince or explain anything to anyone. We need allies like this in the international arena.." Avigdor Lieberman

Let us see if this is uncovered more at Breivik's trial The pro-Zionist, Islamophobic ground work, officially and unofficially has already been laid for just such an incident here.

Wed, 2011-08-03 12:28

#76

NDPP

Oslo Is Not OK

http://yorikirii.blogspot.com/2011/08/oslo-is-not-ok.html

"ABB's views are mainstream...I'm very scared of the things to come."

Wed, 2011-08-03 12:31

#77

6079_Smith_W

I am just saying that Petras provides no evidence, and not even a professional opinion to support his claim.

In short, he made it up. Until I see any evidence to the contrary, I consider it fiction.

Wed, 2011-08-03 12:53

#78

Mr.Tea

NDPP wrote:

But they AREN'T, only those dealing with Zionism. Support for all things Zionist is deeply entrenched here, even amongst some 'progressives', who become hysterical in defence of Israel wherever and whenever it is criticized, frequently accompanied by that tired old gambit the allegation of anti-Semitism.

I asked you before and you dodged it but I'll try again: what do you mean by "zionism"? Is is the secular, socialist "labour zionism" of David ben Gurion? The messianic "religious zionism" of Rabbi Avraham Kook? Is anyone who supports Israel's right to exist a "zionist"? If so, I guess you have to include Mahmoud Abbas on your list of zionists as well.

It's become a term that means nothing and is used by people to signify whatever they want and often used to badger and bash anyone with whom they disagree by labelling and dismissing them as "zionist", as you do repeatedly.

It's like labelling someone a "socialist". How do you define socialism? Who is your model of socialism? Franklin D. Roosevelt? Pol Pot? Whether the label applies depends entirely on what you think it means. In the case of "zionism", the label does far more to obscure, rather than to clarify and discussion or understanding.

Wed, 2011-08-03 13:04

#79

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Since you are the self proclaimed expert you tell us what terms to use to describe the current immoral government and the settler movement and its allies. I will be happy to defer to your description of these human rights abusers who control the murderous army of occupation.

I would like to have the right words so as to avoid being tarred as anti-Semitic.

Wed, 2011-08-03 13:07

#80

NDPP

Mr Tea - why not start a separate thread: 'What is Zionism?'

For me: Zionism is racism.

Wed, 2011-08-03 13:45

#81

Mr.Tea

Good idea. I'll start a new thread on labels in general and "zionist" in particular. I think it could be a good discussion.

Thu, 2011-08-04 02:54

#82

NDPP

Anders Behring Breivik: Mystery Man - by Justin Raimondo

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/07/28/anders-behring-breivik-mys...

"Never has a 'lone wolf' had this much company.."

Thu, 2011-08-04 03:59

#83

NDPP

Re the Breivik-JDL-EDL Hate Network Alive and Well and Growing Openly in Canada

"...the JDL is and always has been a hate group and a violent one at that. Had any other group said about Jews what the JDL has long said about Muslims, the CJC would have been rightly outraged and insisted that the group in question be ostracized..."

http://rabble.ca/news/2011/01/long-last-farber-forced-denounce-jdl

Clearly this hasn't been the case, as the recent JDL-Canada organized TDSB demo against Muslim students demonstrates. Rabid Zionism, Islamophobia, and hate in Canada gets a free pass - AGAIN!

Fri, 2011-08-05 00:50

#84

Erik Redburn

NDPP wrote:

Erik Redburn wrote:

Since NDPP couldn't even be bothgered to explain for myself, I'll just have to hope he'll be more careful in the future.

NDPP

I just returned from work. I needn't explain anything nor do I particularly care if you like the posting or not. And I have posted quite a number of pieces relating to Breivik of which this is only one. Please read them. As it was the first in this thread, I used it as a title as it is an expansive one which will cover the field and allow a range of postings. I obviously think it has something to contribute to a broader understanding of Breivik and the networks he connects to.

like that of the EDL-JDL - Wilders etc - I hope there are also those here who appreciate the implications and obligations to act against their agenda to further spread their Islamophobic hate propaganda here in Canada.

NOne of which addresses anything that was written regarding the article in question. I say again it was conspiratorial to the point of silliness, badly written and authored by a fellow who frames things in ways which ought to set off a few alarm bells. There's enough good material on the subject to avoid bothering with that old shark bait.

Fri, 2011-08-05 01:10

#85

Erik Redburn

NDPP wrote:

Re the Breivik-JDL-EDL Hate Network Alive and Well and Growing Openly in Canada

"...the JDL is and always has been a hate group and a violent one at that. Had any other group said about Jews what the JDL has long said about Muslims, the CJC would have been rightly outraged and insisted that the group in question be ostracized..."

http://rabble.ca/news/2011/01/long-last-farber-forced-denounce-jdl

Clearly this hasn't been the case, as the recent JDL-Canada organized TDSB demo against Muslim students demonstrates. Rabid Zionism, Islamophobia, and hate in Canada gets a free pass - AGAIN!

And there you go, even guys like Bernie Farber, fellow Likudniks and the Jerusalem Post are starting to reject the extremist JDL, therefore the theory is even flimsier than before. There is a difference between a homicidal maniacs citing Zionists as a inspiration and claiming tht the Zionist movement is itself giving him marching orders. I mean why would Mossad even Want such a thing to happen, when its likley to put supposed fellow travellors on the defensive again? Given all his other hatreds cited (feminists, liberals, blacks et al) I'd put more blame on the mostly WASP led neo-con movement, which uses bigotry against every progressive cause and oppressed minority to gain and maintain power. Israel has gained importance more recently because of its strategic position destabilizing neighbouring oil states, and because the Republican fundamentalist base sees it as the site of Armegeddon and salvation -for them. In the end they want all Jews to be deported there too, and forced to convert or die when Christ's thousand year dictatorship begins.

Naturally the state of Israel will take their political $upport too, on the theory I presume that it's unlikely to actually occur on planet earth. I'm not so sure about the Armegeddon part myself.

Fri, 2011-08-05 04:31

#86

NDPP

Another Smoking Gun: Breivik Link to Israel - by Wayne Madsen

http://www.opinion-maker.org/2011/07/another-smoking-gun-breivik-link-to...

"Mossad's control of formerly anti-Semitic neo-Nazi groups in Europe lies at the heart of Breivik's terrorist network.."

Fri, 2011-08-05 12:00

#87

NDPP

Captain America, Captain Norway - by Keith Harmon Snow

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25896

"...Some call the Nordic Aryan a psychopath. Others are calling him a savior. Is he a self-styled Norwegian version of Captain America?

Fri, 2011-08-05 14:16

#88

Erik Redburn

So, you're still not addressing what others are arguing. What a surprise.

Ok, my next point is that far right parties have been springing up all across Europe for sometime now, the anti-islamic(extremist) language used to inflame existing prejudices (and redirect genuine frustraton at the neo-liberal economic policies of the Eurocrats, which far right parties actually want to expand on) has its roots in the neo-conservative movement aligning the deeply racist American South (easily spreading to other high racist zones) with the economic 'shock' doctrine put out by the Chicago school of economics and its subsidiaries in London and elsewhere. The Mossad, once again, would have little reason t support this kind of mass murder against White European youth, thats not its usual MO.

Fri, 2011-08-05 14:17

#89

Erik Redburn

NDPP wrote:

Another Smoking Gun: Breivik Link to Israel - by Wayne Madsen

http://www.opinion-maker.org/2011/07/another-smoking-gun-breivik-link-to...

"Mossad's control of formerly anti-Semitic neo-Nazi groups in Europe lies at the heart of Breivik's terrorist network.."

Madsen BTW is well known as something of a conspiracy nutter whos popular among teabag militia types. You know, the guys who like to coopt elements of leftwing anti-globalization and antiimperialist movements and convert them into Buchanan friendly dross.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Madsen

Madsen's own site:

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

"Sacking of Turkish top military officers appears to have been something more serious -- perhaps the suppression of an attempted military coup by Ergenekon holdouts. Reuters/Rothschild calls Ergenekon an "alleged conspiracy." There's nothing alleged about the Rothschild/Israeli connection to Ergenekon and the Turkish Donmeh.

....

Screw with Social Security and Medicare as President and be prepared to lose Florida. If Barky the Trained Kenyan Circus Seal does not get that, he's the dumbest bastard to ever occupy the White House.

.....

Indian parliamentarian says Mossad and CIA behind latest Mumbai terrorist attack. Israel poses a clear and present danger to the entire world.

.....

First Hugo Chavez and now Canada's New Democratic Party leader Jack Layton have cancer. Who is playing around with cancer delivery weapons? The CIA's Sidney Gottlieb pioneered in the research.

Israel looks to renounce Oslo Accords. Israel renounced Oslo when it attacked the city in a blatant act of war against Norway."

And check out some of the 'favourite' links!

Fri, 2011-08-05 22:43

#90

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Come on Erik, it's got to be true, it's posted on the internet after all.

Fri, 2011-08-05 23:20

#91

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

Another Smoking Gun: Breivik Link to Israel - by Wayne Madsen

http://www.opinion-maker.org/2011/07/another-smoking-gun-breivik-link-to...

"Mossad's control of formerly anti-Semitic neo-Nazi groups in Europe lies at the heart of Breivik's terrorist network.."

The article seems to undermine the point the author is trying to make

Sat, 2011-08-06 04:14

#92

NDPP

Was There A Context for Breivik's Madness?

http://www.forward.com/articles/140923/

"It is, I believe, altogether too easy to label as insane people who do horrid things as Breivik admittedly did...As chaotic as is his background, which is clear from yet another substantial part of his manifesto, Breivik cannot fairly be described as a 'loner'. He drank deeply from the cesspool of Islamophobia, drew strenght from Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, Marine Le Pen in France; far right parties in Denmark, Sweden and Britain, and also from the noisy American Islamophobia.

A plea of insanity lets the perpetrator off the hook and lets society off the hook as well. It is self-serving, far too facile, hence appropriately suspect. Wherever the contextual chips fall, they warrant careful consideration."

The Mass Murderer's Manfesto

http://www.counterpunch.org/shamir08032011.html

"...Shooting people who can't shoot back is a vile act, the work of a mass murderer, a paid executioner, or a NATO soldier. For two hours the killer professionally, confidently and cooly stalked the unarmed youth, executing them and one by one in absolute safety...for 100 days the killer's ex-classmates, now in NATO's Air Force, professionally, confidently and cooly stalked unarmed Libyans from the absolute safety of distant compounds.

Breivik hated Muslims, hated Socialists, no doubt he hated Gadhafi, a Muslim Socialist; but better than a thousand Gadhafi-dispatched terrorists, his deed should remind the people of Europe that wars abroad will bring war home, too. There are too many licences to kill being produced.

Politically the killer's sympathies lie squarely with the United States and Israel.."

JDL-Canada and their allies in the EDL, BNP, Wilders, Haider etc are of the same ilk. What are Canadians prepared to do to shut them down as well as the NATO murderers bombing Libya and led by NATO's Canadian butcher-boy General Charles Bouchard? I suspect nothing. Like the wildly successful JDL-TDSB protest, both appear to have more than a little traction here.

Sat, 2011-08-06 08:09

#93

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

The Mass Murderer's Manfesto

http://www.counterpunch.org/shamir08032011.html

Did you actually read the entire article?

As children of the defeated ’68 revolution, we were free to love, smoke, think and act. We could travel and fly without being stripped at the airport, and our booze was not confiscated. We could make love and smoke in cafés. Since then, it has been downhill all the way: smoking has been banned, free thought has been incarcerated by Political Correctness, and political action has been reduced to joining a Facebook group.

In the US, as Noam Chomsky has instructed me, the U-turn coincided with the 1968 teachers’ strike in New York which reminded the Jews that their narrow interests are not necessarily best served by progressive and revolutionary tactics.

Support of dubious gender politics and retreat from the class struggle changed the Left. While the Left had always pushed for equality between the sexes, this equality leaned rather towards the masculine pole: whether it was a worker building the barricade, sailors storming the Winter Palace, cigar-smoking barbudos of Castro, they were all manly symbols of the Left. During the epic confrontation of the first half of 20th century, the Red Guards were not more feminine than the Stormtroopers, and Ernst Thaelmann was not less masculine than Ernst Roehm.

The present misbalance of male/female factors in the developed world was caused by technological developments (man’s physical strength is less needed), by ideological shift and by capitalists’ desire to maximise profit by employing women. As a result, men are frustrated. Their old traditional role of providers is over; their jobs went away to China, fighting is done by drones. Breivik’s massacre bears the mark of a frustrated and marginalized Norwegian man.

Breivik felt his manhood threatened by “television, where nearly every major offering has a female 'power figure' and the plots and characters emphasize the inferiority of the male and superiority of the female… by government-mandated employment preferences and practices that benefit women and use 'sexual harassment' charges to keep men in line, [by] colleges where women’s gender studies proliferate and 'affirmative action' is applied in admissions and employment.”

Yes, the killer is a psychotic man whose vision is hardly adequate, but his point should be considered. Even his hatred towards Muslim immigrants could be traced to the threat to his manhood presented by virile, unencumbered-by-fear-of-harassment-charges Southerners successfully competing for the charms of the Nordic girls. This massacre and its possible follow-ups might well have been averted if this European man did not feel his manhood threatened in so many ways.

Sat, 2011-08-06 11:36

#94

NDPP

One of Israel's leading intellectuals...

Sat, 2011-08-06 12:00

#95

NDPP

BNP Chief's Hitler Salute to Breivik Heroine

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3732148/BNP-chiefs-Hitler-salu...

"The SUN infiltrates nazi festival in hungary.."

BNP is part of the EDL-JDL Canada's extended family...

Sat, 2011-08-06 18:52

#96

NDPP

Horror of Horrors

http://www.counterpunch.org/doebbler08052011.html

"The tragedy that befell Norway that left almost 100, mostly young people dead, killed by a bombing and shooting rampage, is a terrifying horror. Even more horrifying is how we reacted to it, and how we continue to react to it. While few people would go to the extremes of the Norwegian mass murderer, our leaders have, with our complaisant compliance, consented to even greater mass murder..."

Sat, 2011-08-06 22:37

#97

Erik Redburn

NDPP wrote:

One of Israel's leading intellectuals...

Really? No wonder Israel is in trouble.

Support of dubious gender politics and retreat from the class struggle changed the Left. While the Left had always pushed for equality between the sexes, this equality leaned rather towards the masculine pole: whether it was a worker building the barricade, sailors storming the Winter Palace, cigar-smoking barbudos of Castro, they were all manly symbols of the Left. During the epic confrontation of the first half of 20th century, the Red Guards were not more feminine than the Stormtroopers, and Ernst Thaelmann was not less masculine than Ernst Roehm.

The present misbalance of male/female factors in the developed world was caused by technological developments (man’s physical strength is less needed), by ideological shift and by capitalists’ desire to maximise profit by employing women. As a result, men are frustrated. Their old traditional role of providers is over; their jobs went away to China, fighting is done by drones. Breivik’s massacre bears the mark of a frustrated and marginalized Norwegian man.

Breivik felt his manhood threatened by “television, where nearly every major offering has a female 'power figure' and the plots and characters emphasize the inferiority of the male and superiority of the female… by government-mandated employment preferences and practices that benefit women and use 'sexual harassment' charges to keep men in line, [by] colleges where women’s gender studies proliferate and 'affirmative action' is applied in admissions and employment.”

Yes, the killer is a psychotic man whose vision is hardly adequate, but his point should be considered. Even his hatred towards Muslim immigrants could be traced to the threat to his manhood presented by virile, unencumbered-by-fear-of-harassment-charges Southerners successfully competing for the charms of the Nordic girls. This massacre and its possible follow-ups might well have been averted if this European man did not feel his manhood threatened in so many ways.

I was waiting for the part that put put all this into the context of a desperately deluded and unsuccesful young man, grasping at all the usual macho rightwing images and excuses but I was abit suprised to find these were treated as valid grievances. I know that Counterpunch has gone off on some weird tangents but I had no idea how far they've fallen.

Sun, 2011-08-07 01:35

#98

NDPP

Breivik Was No Lone Wolf - Now We Must Act

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/107950

"Some of those quoted by Breivik ahve sought to absolve themselves from association with him. However, their adoption of the same language of fear and resentment has fuelled the hatred expressed by Breivik and by groups such as the English Defence League, to whom he paid homage...

homage was also paid by JDL-Canada which allied with the EDL last year - the JDL is planning another 'Radical Islam' hate-fest demo at the Toronto District School Board against Muslim prayers, this week. For further information check the JDL Canada website:

www.jdl-canada.com

Sun, 2011-08-07 04:13

#99

NDPP

When Slogans Beget Slaughter

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2086839,00.html

"Last year on Sept. 11, I stood at Ground Zero on hundreds of people shouted obscenities against Muslims and Islam. They were gathered to protest the proposed construction of a Muslim-run interfaith community center nearby, which had earned the inaccurate moniker Ground Zero mosque.

The rally was conducted by a motley crew of Islamophobia among them several European visitors. Dutch politician Geert Wilders, who has called for a ban on immigration to the Netherlands from Muslim countries, denounced the arrival of a 'new Mecca' on the shores of what was once New Amsterdam. Members of the far-right, anti-immigrant English Defence League unfurled banners voicing support for an American war on Islam.

I mention this because the manifesto of Anders Behring Breivik, the man behind the massacre in Norway, echoed these calls...Breivik's actions are rooted in a zenophobic hysteria that seems to be growing in the West.."

Here's what Meir Weinstein of JDL-Canada had to say re the above;

"Rabbi Kahane's blood is crying out to us', declared Meir Weinstein, the director of the JDL-Canada. 'What we need now, more than ever, are those that have a Jewish head attached to a Jewish fist. Following the yahrzeit, Mr Weinstein led a group of Kahane supporters at a special rally at Ground Zero, where he called Rabbi Kahane the first victim of Al Qaeda terrorism on US soil.

He decried the proposed building of a mosque at Ground Zero saying that 'the ideology that will be taught in this mosque is the same ideology responsible for the murder of Rabbi Kahane.' Weinstein said that the mosque would represent 'Islamic dominance..It is another attempt to make all non-Muslims subservient to them.'

Rally participants held aloft signs saying 'From the River to the Sea, the Land of Israel Must Be Free' and 'Arabs Out Now! It Doesn't Matter How!"

http://rabble.ca/comment/1271379

Sun, 2011-08-07 04:57

#100

NDPP

Israel Being Courted By Right-Wing European Politicians [or/and visa-versa...] -( December 2010)

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/2010/12/22/israel-being-courted-by-righ...

"...Far right political parties in Europe are stepping up their anti-Muslim rhetoric and forging ties across borders, even going so far as to visit Israel to hail the Jewish state as a bulwark against militant Islam...Geert Wilders, whose populist far-right party supports the Dutch minority government, told Reuters last week he was organising 'an international freedom alliance' to link grass roots groups active in 'the fight against Islam...Our culture is based on Christianity and Judaism. The Israelis are fighting our fight,' Wilders told Reuters in Amsterdam last week:

'If Jerusalem falls, Amsterdam and New York will be next...'

Europe's Extreme Righteous

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/02/27/europe-s-extreme-righte...

"...Invited by a right-wing Israeli businessman named Chaim Muehlstein...members of the Knesset did meet with the group, which signed a 'Jerusalem Declaration' guaranteeing Israel's right to defend itself against terror. 'We stand at the vanguard in the fight against the totalitarian threat of fundamentalist Islam,' says the document which was signed by members of the group, that included Heinz-Christian Strache, head of the Austrian Freedom Party; Filip Dewinter, head of Belgium's ultranationalist Vlaams Belang; Rene Stadtkewitz, founder of the German Freedom Party and Kent Exeroth, the international secretary for the Sweden Democrats, a populist anti-immigration party..."

Meir Weinstein interview Jan 6, 2011, AM 640 Radio

http://www.jdl-canada.com/am640edlmeir.mp3

"in December I was in Israel. And I was amongst a delegation of European parliamentarians, bloggers and activists, that came to Israel. These people are considered to be on the Right-Wing - that's what they're called. They represent a new direction going on in Europe. They see a threat. I see a threat.."

and I see a threat...wilful blindness to the power, influence and backers of that same network here.

Sun, 2011-08-07 06:37

#101

NDPP

Netanyahu's Likud Party Connection to Europe's Right Wing Politicians

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com?p=145197

"Islamophobic parties in Europe have established a tight network, stretching from Italy to Finland. But recently, they have extended their feelers to Israeli conservatives, enjoying a warm reception from members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition. Some in Israel believe that the populists are Europe's future.

Many in Israel see it the same way. Eliezer Cohen, known in Israel by his nickname 'Cheetah' says that leftist parties in both Europe and Israel have lost their way. Cohen, a decorated Israeli air force colonel now in retirement, is a former member of the Knesset with Yisrael Beiteinu, the hardline nationalist party led by Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, that currently governs together in a coalition with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud Party.

'Right-wing politicians in Europe are far more sensitive to the dangers facing Israel,' Cohen, who told Spiegel ONLINE 'They are talking the exact same language as Likud and others on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting. We hope the right wing wins out in Europe.."

In Canada, of course, for Israel, it already has, 'Both the government and opposition support us' Avigdor Lieberman on Canada

'Shmuel Sackett in Toronto'

http://jdlcanada.wordpress.com

"Urgent meeting against the creation of a Palestinian state within Israel. Hear the only plan to stop the creation of this terror-state. Shmuel Sackett is the co-founder of Man higut Yehudit, the largest faction within the powerful Likud Central Committee..."

JDL-Canada

"It's hard to find a country friendlier to Israel than Canada.." Avigdor Lieberman

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