It would ludicrous to deny that some anti-zionism is fueled by anti-semitism. That being said I am sure that no one's opposition on this Board to Zionism is fuelled by anti-semitism.
"Zionism" and other labels; do they mean anything?
Mon, 2011-08-08 07:45
#52
Mon, 2011-08-08 10:11
#53
M. Spector
How can you be so sure? If your first statement is correct (it isn't, BTW), then your second statement is "ludicrous".
Mon, 2011-08-08 10:15
#54
Of course, my first statement is correct, M. Spector. My second is of course an act of faith.
Mon, 2011-08-08 10:30
#55
M. Spector
Your first statement is designed to blur the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Anti-semitism is a right-wing ideology that is incompatible with anti-imperialism except in the mind of some very confused and deranged individuals.
They are entirely separate phenomena. They may co-exist within a single person, but to allege that one "fuels" the other is nonsense.
You might as well say that it would be ludicrous to deny that some anti-imperialism is fuelled by anti-Americanism.
You are imputing motives to people you don't even know.
And to what purpose? How does your "observation" advance an anti-imperialist, anti-oppression agenda?
Mon, 2011-08-08 10:39
#56
Geez, M. Spector, you can impute an awful lot from a simple statement of facts. Of course, not all opposition to Zionism is from an anti-imperialist perspective. A person can be both anti-zionist and anti-semitic. Or maybe not from your perspective.
Mon, 2011-08-08 10:57
#57
M. Spector
Didn't I just say as much?
But what's your point, other than to cast aspersions on anti-Zionism?
Your function in this thread amounts to trolling, pure and simple.
Mon, 2011-08-08 18:49
#58
Interesting, because we are seeing a similar blurring of lines next door on the question of religion in schools, where any who support separation of church and state are accused of supporting the JDL.
In fact, both positions (regarding whether discrimination can influence political belief or not) are true.
Sorry if I don't believe the notion that all people keep their range of beliefs packaged in separate boxes in their minds that have nothing to do with one another.
All anti Zionists aren't racist? I have a hard time believing that.
And of course, some (including those here, I would argue) who oppose Zionism do so because they are anti-racist, and oppose the racist aspects of that belief system.
(edit)
To be clear - I do not think that anti-Zionism, or criticism of Israel are by definition anti-semitic.
On the other hand, one should be able to criticize peoples' actions without being accused of being an Israeli apologist.
Mon, 2011-08-08 20:38
#59
M. Spector
On the other hand, one should be able to criticize peoples' actions without being accused of being an Israeli apologist.
It would be ludicrous to deny that some who criticize people's actions are Israeli apologists. That being said I am sure that no one who criticizes people's actions on this Board is an apologist for Israel.
Call it an "act of faith".
Mon, 2011-08-08 22:52
#60
@ M. Spector
I agree with you there - hence my comment about those who try to shut down criticusm of Israel as anti-semitism. ButI am glad that we agree that it is not a black and white issue.
Wed, 2011-08-10 13:44
#61
Re; the closing of yet another thread on the JDL-EDL-Fascists, Racists and other Haters
The evidence that this is a 'progressive' board declines rapidly. The JDL-EDL-Wilders-Breivik-et al Zio-Nazi hate network continues with their 'free pass' for Islamophobia in Canada.
Wed, 2011-08-10 14:48
#62
Re; the closing of yet another thread on the JDL-EDL-Fascists, Racists and other Haters
The evidence that this is a 'progressive' board declines rapidly. The JDL-EDL-Wilders-Breivik-et al Zio-Nazi hate network continues with their 'free pass' for Islamophobia in Canada.
NDPP, this is a productive discussiion. Stop trying to derail it and drag it down to the level of hair-pulling and name-calling. Your thread closed - it failed basically - because it didn't discuss hate. It became hate.
Wed, 2011-08-10 15:12
#63
And is Cueball still around?
Wed, 2011-08-10 15:20
#64
There was hate in those threads long before Cueball's arrival.
Wed, 2011-08-10 15:34
#65
Catchfire
Both Cueball and Northern Shoveler were given some time off for personal attacks in the other thread. NDPP was given some time off for repeatedly flouting the moderators' request that he refrain from using the term Zionazi. If there are any further remarks to be made about thos threads, please move them to rabble reactions and keep this discussion in tact. Thanks.
Wed, 2011-08-10 16:31
#66
Actually I am pleasantly surprised that this powderkeg of a thread has made it this far without exploding. My compliments to all who have managed to show restraint in discussing this very contentious issue.
Fri, 2011-08-12 10:11
#67
knownothing
Fri, 2011-08-12 11:03
#68
Northern Shoveler
Both Cueball and Northern Shoveler were given some time off for personal attacks in the other thread. NDPP was given some time off for repeatedly flouting the moderators' request that he refrain from using the term Zionazi. If there are any further remarks to be made about thos threads, please move them to rabble reactions and keep this discussion in tact. Thanks.
Zionazi and fuck off are restricted terms. Being called Northern "Shit" Shoveler is fair comment. I arrive at that conclusion since it doesn't even get a reference as something inappropriate. Being referred to as being possessed by demons is fair comment again since it was not decried by the moderators. Being accused of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia is fair comment.
So to be clear on the rules as enforced at babble. No swearing on babble. Yeah I get it and will try to merely get in the gutter with the rest of the posters but don't ever swear. Throw around nasty insults but never ever swear at people who make them because that will lead to a suspension and a direct naming of the sin that was engaged in.
Sat, 2011-08-13 07:03
#69
I was banned for two days for use of the 'prohibited term' "Zio-Nazi". The context is the hate network which includes the JDL-Canada (Zios) and the English Defence League (Nazis). I reason that such an alliance, can only be referred to as "Zio-Nazi", since, that is, in fact what it is.
This alliance came about after all key European "Zio-Nazis" including Geert Wilders, the EDL and our own Meir Weinstein, met in Israel in 2010, with other right-wing, bloggers, activists and parliamentarians for a series of meetings. Out of this emerged the 'Jerusalem Declaration' which was a "Zio-Nazi" declaration of intent towards fighting the takeover of Western civilization by "Islamofascism" and the central role of Israel.
Notwithstanding the fact that I have explained my useage ad nauseum - the position of Rabble is apparently non-negotiable and the use of the term "Zio-Nazi" is indeed prohibited regardless of it being an accurate one.
In personal emails to me on my suspension, which I urged instead to be posted to the board, as is customary, Catchfire says
"As has been explained to you ad nauseum there is a difference between "Zionazi" and "Nazi Zionist".
Your word, like another banned term, 'Islamofascist', equates Zionism and Nazism. Such a facile equation is against babble policy. This explanation has been posted on babble before and I won't indulge your little drama by making another spectacle. If you use it again you'll be banned again..."
Such censorship and silencing runs counter to anything remotely 'progressive', and violates constitutional rights of free expression as well. But since there is no willingness to even entertain the notion that JDL (zio) + EDL (nazi) = "zio-nazi" and since the culture of rabble has apparently so resolutely chosen to defend either one or the other of these two.. (wonder which?)
I am forced to forgo the more accurate "Zio-Nazi", when describing the aforementioned JDL-EDL-Wilders et al hate network and substitute as demanded "Nazi-Zio" instead - which IS permitted by Catchfire/Babble
Unfortunately these continuing ridiculous, heavy handed and unnecessary pin-headed interventions will continue to drive good people off this board in droves..
ps re: Anders Breivik, who has now been linked to the aforesaid EDL-JDL Nazi-Zionist hate network:
"He realizes the ultimate paradox of a Zionist Nazi..."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/anders-behring-breiv...
Sat, 2011-08-13 10:06
#70
M. Spector
So now "facile equations" are against babble policy. Good to keep that in mind.
I wonder whose feelings are being protected by babble - the Zionists' or the Nazis'?
Sat, 2011-08-13 14:54
#71
I totally understand the emotional level under what is happening here and, as an aside, I myself am not happy with what I saw as a moderator's intervention in a discussion they were involved in in an entirely seperate thread. That being said, the moderators are in a tough position; less than two weeks ago, a false concept about supposed anti-semitism was leveled at rabble.ca by other right-wing bloggers, websites etc and all because of a post by an advocate of the Social Credit party (Wow!!!). Yet most of the moderators here clearly are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and are mindful of the nonsense spewed about Palestinians (hence Rebecca West's response to Brian White above). I myself have no particular problem with 'Zio-N----' but for the time being there is here on babble a problem with it. So be it; to me given the long history of sympathy (i e Vladimir Jabotinsky) or outright collaboration ( i e Yitshak Shamir), one could argue that term is somewhat redundant. I sure hope everybody can take a deep breath at this moment and reset to give greater emphasis to one fact; the corporate, mainstream media's dedication to isolating Breivik's actions from the larger context and the pretense/lie/chimera that the racist campaign against Arabs and the discriminatory campaign against Islam had no relevance to what happened in Norway. Ultimately there is a much larger challenge about the lies against Palestine that has to be confronted in the real world out there.
Sat, 2011-08-13 18:07
#72
I hear you 2dawall - thanks.
Sat, 2011-08-13 20:09
#73
Feel free to start a thread about Mods' decisions, etc., but stop derailing this thread from its intended purpose.
Sat, 2011-08-13 21:09
#74
"Breivik identifies with the Zionist extreme Right. This calls to mind the likes of the Jewish Defense League, Likud, the settler movement etc. Breivik's support for the expansion of Israeli borders north and south also reminds one of the 'Greater Israei Empire' that has always been a basis of the Zionist 'extreme right'. He sees Israel as the Vanguard in the fight against Islam.."
http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/08/anders-breivik-and-the-clash-of-...
Sat, 2011-08-13 21:10
#75
Catchfire
Newsflash: this thread is not about Breivik. Please start a new thread if you feel the need.
Sat, 2011-08-13 22:30
#76
The thread canvases 'Zionism' and other labels and do they mean anything?' Proferred are significant individuals and formations (other labels) that "identifies with the Zionist extreme Right' - directly germane and applicable to the thread's objective . The need I feel is to have you stop your attempts to interfere, derail or suppress my submissions to the topic.
Sun, 2011-08-14 12:25
#77
So now "facile equations" are against babble policy. Good to keep that in mind.
I wonder whose feelings are being protected by babble - the Zionists' or the Nazis'?
How about those those who know the difference between anti-Zionism, criticism of that Zionist inspired state, and base anti-semitism seeking to use these as a cover?
Sun, 2011-08-14 13:19
#78
"Breivik identifies with the Zionist extreme Right. This calls to mind the likes of the Jewish Defense League, Likud, the settler movement etc. Breivik's support for the expansion of Israeli borders north and south also reminds one of the 'Greater Israei Empire' that has always been a basis of the Zionist 'extreme right'. He sees Israel as the Vanguard in the fight against Islam.."
http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/08/anders-breivik-and-the-clash-of-...
And please stop linking to ultra-far-right neo-Nazi hate sites. Some Nazis retain their hatred of Jews before all others.
Sun, 2011-08-14 14:14
#79
Stop making thinly veiled accusations of anti-semitism. THe enemy is to be found in an expanding Nazi-Zionist alliance of the JDL-EDL-Wilders et al, openly and actively operating in Canada and elsewhere, with impunity - not those trying to expose this alarming state of affairs.
Sun, 2011-08-14 14:23
#80
You making a thinly veiled accusation that I'm pro-zionist too? This is a openly antisemtic far-right site yet you keep linking to it. Why?
Sun, 2011-08-14 14:30
#81
I mean read the fucking links on IT:
Sun, 2011-08-14 14:39
#82
I link to lots of sites -including pro-zionist far right ones. For information. I make no such accusations against you. Please do the same. Enough
Sun, 2011-08-14 14:40
#83
All we're reading here folks is a turf war between the old antiJewish supremacists and the new antiIslamic ones. The only innovation is that some are trying to suck in lefties so it takes one or two extra steps online to find the usual hatemongering filth.
Sun, 2011-08-14 14:41
#84
Fuck you, youve been warned before and refuse to explan yourself. I'm going to the mods.
Sun, 2011-08-14 15:16
#85
...good idea Eric (here we go again..)
Gideon Levy on Zionism
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/gideon-levy-zionism-in-its-present-meaning...
"..The problem is that Zionism in its present meaning, in its common meaning, is contradictory to human rights, to equality, to democracy.."
Sun, 2011-08-14 16:47
#86
So you think posting something else from a Jewish anti-Zionist makes it all ok? Do you really think G. Levy is saying the same thing for the same reasons as those on the 'new' racist right? Do you really think those on this 'new' racist right really care about the evil of fascism and racist oppression?? More to the point, do you think I should waste aymore time arguing with someone who obviously takes others for bigger fools than you are?
The mods have been contacted, you can explain your noble intentions to them.
Sun, 2011-08-14 16:49
#87
Catchfire
NDPP, Erik is right. Do not link to neo-nazi websites again. You've been warned. You disagree with this policy, consider it registered. Even so, babble has never condoned linking to hate sites. So don't do it again. This is a final warning.
Since this thread has been killed, I'm closing it.