Fidel wrote:Agreed. But whatever it is we want to reduce exports to, corporate America still wants 60%. It's in writing. Signed sealed and delivered long time ago. I suggest that the NDP propose that Ottawa not approve of anymore new oil sands projects. The pipelines are another thing. They've got a phony majority for four years.
The US violates NAFTA and existing WTO treaties on an ongoing basis. There is little beyond political will and insouciance that prevents Canada, ie, we Canadians, from collectively crushing this monstrous thing. Any of this shit can be argued in Int'l Court, and even successfully. Canada doesn't stand a chance from an economic POV - the US is our major market - but Int'l support might be more helpful.
This is absolutely correct, even though I had to lookup the word 'insuzyance'.
I think the NDP looks at it in the way that NAFTA could easily be renegotiated and even abrogated if it came down to that. Ottawa is holding a big hand in any free trade negotiations that could take place if they possessed the political will to actually pursue our sovereign rights to bargain and trade freely. They do not, however.
I don't want Americans in the Northern US to freeze in the dark anymore than Canadians. It's why we must pursue conservation and efficiency so that as many Northern USians and Canadians have the right not to freeze in the dark for as long as possible. And we need to invest in alternative energy science in the mean time. The US is our natural geographic trade partner just as the U.S. is for Cuba and vice versa. We are all interconnected and interdependent with one another and must collectively decide to do the right thing. Otherwise we will be putting undue pressure on future generations to make hard choices. Otherwise we will be staring into the abyss sooner than necessary.
You're crying over spilt milk. You should have voted for the real anti-NAFTA party back in '89 and '93.
Too late now, though. So let's scapegoat on one guy, Doer, he's handy. And never mind the rest of the sellouts in the two old line parties who were actually paid under the table for their stoogery. It was a done deal decade ago sans Doer or any other former NDPer. Let's give full credit where due, shall we? Didn't think so. No thanks, youre full. Don't be afraid to speak up about these things, because I'm not.
Doer is the current spokesman/salesman for Canada's stake in Keystone XL - why are you deflecting criticism away from him, Fidel? And why doesn't the NDP speak out against him? Vested interest?
We can follow the big money straight back to the bagmen and corrupt politicians in the two old line parties over the last 50 years or so.
Doer is a bit player. He's down there lobbying them to take what already belongs to them legally through NAFTA and other crooked deals over the years. 60% of the oil production has to go to corporate America - it's in writing and NAFTA dispute panels there in the good ol' USA where Canadians can count on a fair shake, for sure for sure.
Blame the little strangler from Shawinigan and Lyin Brian, John Manley etc for signing the stupidest trade deal in history. It's like being shackled to a building billowing odd puffs of smoke here and there with cutter charges set to go off by remote control from CIA field offices over there in 7WTC. I think our past and currently corrupt stooges in federal power deserve about 90 percent of the credit for this colonial-extractive economy we have today in general. It's not our country and never was. We were renters in our own land decades ago, and I think we should admit to that reality. Who are we fooling referring to Canada as a real G8 economy and sovereign country? It's ridiculous. Gary Doer didn't sell you or the environment down the Mississippi, come on.
More deflection. He's the current Keystone shyster, and because he has an NDP past, you steadfastly refuse to allow criticism of him.
Not Doer, the NDP. This is all about spinning blame from Doer to the NDP, a party which he is no longer part of. This is about assigning guilt by previous association, as if Doer is just another corrupt old line party candidate rejected by voters and boosted to the red chamber by default, or accepting positions on corporate boards after the dirty deed was done while in federal government. As if that is typical of NDPers who leave politics.
Observe the feeble smear of the NDP @ post #2 . He's feebly attempting to link Gary Doer, a former provincial NDP leader, with the people and NDPers speaking out against the tar sands.
And he's about 17 years too late, because NAFTA was signed and sealed by Jean Chretien, John Manley, and dozens of Ottawa lawyers who signed NAFTA as is in 1994. They lied. And I think some people here are still feeling betrayed and so much so that they feel they have a new scapegoat in little Gary Doer. They are way off the mark though.
I voted for the party that spoke out against the very crooked trade deals in several elections and continues telling Canadians that NAFTA needs renegotiating as well as there being a dire need for made in Canada national energy policy.
It wasn't Gary Doer who sold the environment to Exxon-IMPERIAL and the fossil fuel industry - they were federal LIEberal and Tory Governments in Ottawa who did that and while you weren't looking apparently.
IOWs, you can't have made in Canada national energy policy when it's being dictated to you from corporate board rooms in America. Is the fact that we have no national energy policy and are restrained from creating one at Gary Doer's feet? I don't think so.
Who did you guys vote for in '89 and '93 anyway?
Go on, speak up now or forever hold your peace.
Why are you defending Doer? He is the CURRENT shsyter for the Keystone project! Get with the program.
Clinton, Baird talk Keystone
Clinton says Keystone XL decision by year-end
John Baird? WTH? Doer must have been on holiday, and Baird is the standby colonial administrator in charge of snivelling and grovelling to U.S. power. But nobody knows for sure what so many Tories are doing in Ottawa. Why does Canada need a permit for Canadians to pay the Yanks to take it off our hands, like our corrupt stooges did when giving away TransCanada Pipeline decades ago? I think they get liquored-up when down there in Warshington and get really generous with the oil and lumber and whatever else the colony has in cornucopia reserve. Hell, Canada doesn't need it - we're sitting on their oil and their timber, massive amounts of hydroelectric power etc to be raided at will by corporate America. Our corrupt stooges made sure of it long ago.
Apparently, since no one has yet provided a link to the NDP taking Doer to task for promoting the Keystone project, the NDP must regard him as untouchable.
Nothing on the NDP's web site except to say that we shouldn't be shipping raw natural resources south to be processed and creating tens of thousands of jobs in Texas at the expense of workers here in the northern colony. Oh ya, and the NDP's energy policies will put Canadians first. That would be a refreshing change for the better.
What's afta NAFTA?
Yeah, that was the first place I looked, then Google. Criticism of Doer is here on rabble.ca, though:
Ambassador Doer: Stop lobbying for the Keystone XL pipeline
excerpt:
Today the Council of Canadians joined with the Indigenous Environmental Network and Greenpeace Canada to send a clear message to Gary Doer (Canadian Abassador to the U.S.):
Message to Canada's ambassador to U.S.: Stop lobbying for Keystone XL pipeline
(same article as first)
ACTION ALERT: Ambassador Doer - Get your facts straight!
excerpt:
Increasing numbers of people are concerned about the impacts of the proposed pipeline which will cross important water sources including the Ogallala aquifer, tar sands contributions to climate change and it's social, human right and environmental consequences in Canada.
Gary Doer sells oil sands from coast to U.S. coast (G&M)
excerpt:
Since becoming Canada's ambassador to the United States in late 2009, the former Manitoba premier has travelled from the Carolinas to California, and to most points in between, to make the case for the oil sands.
The NDP to remain credible on this file need to address Doer's role in Keystone XL, and not be afraid to criticize publicly someone who is a former NDP Premier.
They could start by having at least one lousy backbencher publicly endorse the September 26 action against the Keystone pipeline in Ottawa, referred to in [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/activism/call-stop-keystone-xl#comment-1275502]post #1[/url], above!
(see the list in post #2)
It's hard not to think the NDP have zero credibility on Keystone XL when it's so difficult to find any criticism from the NDP for the prime propagandist of the project who just happens to be a former NDP premier.
Well, even if they don't want to denounce St. Gary by name, they could at least throw their support behind the protests against the Keystone XL.
But of course they don't want to, because they actually support the tar sands obscenity. It creates JOBS for Canadians, dontcha know. And they don't want to alienate the sucky trade unions that support the tar sands for that same reason.
I voted against FTA and NAFTA when I voted NDP in '89 and '93. I gave up crying over spilt milk some time ago. Too late for that now. About 17 years too late. The Libranos sold your national energy policy and the environment to Exxon-Imperial and multinats years ago. Apparently some of us missed the announcement. I'd hand yas some tissues but I'm all out.
Death and loss is a difficult thing to deal with in life. It's never easy. The Libranos and their other sellout cousins, the Tories, should perhaps have offered seminars on loss of sovereignty and colonial-extractive economics sometime back in the late 80s-early 90s or so. There are very many Canadians who are still traumatized by the issue and still in a state of denial over those mega-losses/sellouts with CUSFTA and NAFTA. But we must forge on and live in the present not the past. There is still hope for the future. There is still time to vote NDP. But it's a window of opportunity that won't last forever. There is still time to vote for Canadian interests before we end up freezing in the dark and reciting principles to ourselves. As Tommy once said, we may well wakeup one day to just trickles of water from our kitchen taps. That day will come as surely as the most profitable crude oil and natural gas was siphoned off years ago and nothing to show for it after too many years with Ottawa stooging it up for their rich American friends.
I agree 100% - we got shafted with NAFTA and other trade deals. No one excels at trading like the USA*. As for voting, the only time in my life I ever voted Conservative was for Bill Davis provincially in Ontario (1968 I think) because as Education Minister he was great. I think (can't recall really) I voted Liberal around the time of Trudeau in the 1970s federally**. But after that it was mostly for the NDP until I moved to Quebec and have voted BQ - they were the real alternative to Mulroney here at the time. Then, sometime in 2000's I voted Liberal federally because a friend of mine was the local candidate and he is a really great guy - a legend here on the coast. When he lost, I switched to Pierre Ducasse. When he moved, it was back to the BQ - as I said, I didn't see the Orange Wave coming.
*I think because the USA is our main trading partner - and they take the majority of Canadian resources and products by a wide margin - Canadian politicians actually in Government are spineless and terrified of being cut off from the US market, so they basically gave away the store and the keys.
**Back then in the 60s/70s I wasn't into politics much - mostly sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
Right now they're (USA) in competition with China and India, but I believe upthread you were talking about quite a few years back, which is also what I was referring to.
Boom Boom, I don't buy that excuse for selling out with FTA-NAFTA. There is absolutely no reason for our corrupt politicians to have feared losing access to US markets. For one thing, it's energy, and their's is the most energy intensive and most wasteful economy in the world. And America is going to need
Canadianthe oil that is situated in Canada for a long time and whether they decide on conservation and efficiency and green economy or to continue their wasteful ways.1. Canada has, or at least should have maintained the right to bargain on energy prices and supplies. It's perfectly in line with free market principles for a country to bargain and trade freely with other countries. NAFTA has nothing to do with bargaining or trading freely or even gauranteeing access to US markets. Energy is energy, and our's is not a supply that the Yanks could replace easily. They can go bargain hunting all they want, but right now they are in competition with China and India and other countries for world supply. Competition and bargaining on price and supply are all natural to free markets and free trade in the real sense not what the Yanks manage to sucker our corrupt stooges into signing.
2. As I was saying about the USA, they are our natural geographic trade partners just as Cuba was during the Batista years. It makes sense to sell our oil to the US. But as Maurice Strong said in 2001, Canada owes an obligation to the rest of the world to help corporate America wean or wien? itself off of cheap Canadian fossil fuels. If we were to pay attention to real free market and economic principles in general, we should never run out of oil in Canada. Let me repeat, WE SHOULD NEVER RUN OUT OF GAS OR OIL IN CANADA if our stooges were to demand market prices for our natural resource exports. It's a principle of economics whereby supply should always dictate price. And with dangerous climate change a going concern around the world, Canada has an obligation to the rest of the world to include cost to the environment in the price. No Yanquis will freeze in the dark and especially not if we push and prod them into creating a sustainable national energy policy themselves by insisting on free market principles and free trade in general. Our corrupt stooges will never take that approach though.
#3. Canada has always been the USA's number one export market. We buy whatever it is they make from our oil byproducts, plastic widgets etc. Canadians are their best customers for like 50 years running. There is that side of the issue as well - they can't afford to lose our business either. Iggy and Harper are both aware of this fact yet they continue to acquiesce. We have to do something about fossil fuels and emergency reserve requirements, otherwise there really will be Americans in the Northern states and Canada freezing in the dark. Our corrupt stooges really do have us on a road to serfdom.
We must insist that they play by free market rules and trade freely, because our actual liberty and freedom to live with heat and lights depends on it. We can't afford to live in their near future world. No way. The Yanks have some real clever people down there too and must start listening to them.
From the NDP website:
"Recognizing that oil and gas will continue to play a prominent role in our energy mix in the medium term, we will discourage bulk exports of our unprocessed resources and encourage value-added, responsible upgrading refining and petrochemical manufacturing here in Canada to maximize the economic benefits and jobs for Canadians. "
Nothing says the NDP doesn't support oil sands development. It's very unlikely that any party that aspires to power in Ottawa would openly oppose the oil sands as it would be political suicide. Not sure why, then, that Gary Doer is being criticised as he's not violating any NDP policy.
I'm not a fan of the oil sands or the pipeline though.
They want to be able to blame the NDP for what the Harpers do in government, and for the NDP to shoulder the blame for what the Liberals did in selling the envioronment to Exxon-Imperial etc by 1994. They aren't dealing with reality.
Well, if the Official Opposition doesn't actually oppose, then why shouldn't they shoulder their share of the blame?
It's certainly never stopped you from holding the Liberals to account for what Harper has been doing for the last five years!
We've just had a funeral for Jack. But no need to worry, because the NDP will do more opposing in the first month back than the Liebranos did in all of their time in phony opposition to their conservative cousins in Ottawa. Mark my words. This is the largest opposition party ever elected in Ottawa to oppose a phony-baloney majority government. So sit back, relax, and let the NDP show you how a real opposition party goes to work.
And try not to fret so over NAFTA - what's our's is their's long time ago. By 1994 in fact. I'd suggest voting NDP because you are so unhappy about that cold fact, but I know it would be a lesson in frustration. Perhaps some smelling salts are in order. It's 2011 not 1989 or even 1993, and you've been asleep at the switch for too long. You wouldn't believe what's happened between then and now. I think this could be a wakeup call for a lot of Canadians. I sometimes didn't appreciate early am wakeup calls when I worked in remote parts of Northern Canada. But sometimes it's hard to ignore the first the sun shining in through the flaps of the tent. Sometimes that angel whispering sweet nothings in your slumber begins shouting in a rough, whiskey kind of a voice: It's time to drop your cocks and pull-up your socks - it's daylight in the swamp!
I guess they don't call it babble for nothing.... [img]http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/rolleyes.gif[/img]
The NDP fought FTA and NAFTA when it mattered in 1989 and 1993. Carrot Top and Washington took Chretien and dozens of federal lawyers, and Canadians in general for all we were worth. Yeah they really pulled the wool over your eyes when you weren't looking.
Canada's Liberals are prolific liars. They lied to Canada's Parliament and all Canadians back then, too. It's what they do.
So show me where the NDP is promising to abrogate NAFTA when they form the government.
The NDP is for renegotiating NAFTA toward fair trade and trading freely. We need labour and environmental rights introducing to the deal that was mainly a corporate-friendly agreement between countries and very little to do with free trade.
But this baloney that implies Canada will be able to stop production of oil and energy exports to the U.S. is simply not dealing with reality. A comparison can be made with the setup between Russia, Ukraine and Europe for Russian natural gas. The infrastructure supplying Ukraine and Europe was in place decades ago. Our corrupt stooges did the reverse and signed away large rights to access our own fossil fuels, and they signed them away well before any future pipelines or prospects for refinery jobs were
negotiateddictated to us. The NDP at least wants some of those jobs in Canada and unionized higher paying jobs at that.And now Ukrainians and European countries are dependent on Russian energy by previous agreements. The Russians will not cutoff supplies, but they can haggle on prices. Our corrupt stooges don't even want to do that. When pressed they will admit that Canada is in the driver's seat as far as energy exports to the U.S. are concerned. They don't believe in free trade or trading freely. Like they handed 99-year leases to US lumber companies for our best timber decades ago, our stooges are front and centre when it comes to guaranteeing US corporations full access to our raw materials at bargain basement rates.
But this baloney that says we can somehow completely reverse the damage done in 1989-94 is unrealistic. I don't have time for silly talk, and neither do Canadians in general. Get real fcs.
Right. So NAFTA, like NATO, can be reformed and turned into a Good Thing?
The reformist social democrats think they can take any pig and "reform" it by pasting lipstick on it. They never saw a capitalist atrocity that they didn't want to make into a kinder and gentler form of exploitation and death. Will they abolish the GST? No, they'll make it "fairer". Will they abolish public funding for religious schools? No, they will make excuses to continue the practice. Will they stop sending Canadians to fight in imperialist wars? No, but they'll only support the "humanitarian" ones like Serbia, Libya, and Somalia. Will they hold a full public inquiry on the G8/G20? No, they will hope the issue goes away. Will they pass legislation to require companies to provide decent pensions for employees? No, they will strengthen the Canada Pension Plan instead. Will they shut down the tar sands? No, they will promote a "Made in Canada" policy so that the tar sands will provide petroleum to Canadians to burn, instead of Americans. Will they repeal the security certificate laws and other security measures that are routinely abused by CSIS and the RCMP? No. Will they change Canada's uncritical support for the crimes of Israel against the Palestinians, such as the illegal blockade of Gaza? No. Will they get serious about alternative energy and reducing carbon emissions? No, they will bring in carbon trading and hope the capitalist market can solve the problem.
And so it goes on. Canada under an NDP government would be pretty much the way it is now.
Here's a radical idea: let's abandon the pissing contest and discuss ways in which we can further mobilize an effort to stop this project.
So when will you be racing down to Venezuela to tell Hugo Chavez that he's an evol social democrat for exploting the Orinoco oil sands? At least they are able to control the production. Why? Because even their corrupt stooges before Chavez didn't sign them up for a stupidest in world history trade deal.
Just admit it, our Libranos were and still are a bunch of corrupt stooges. It's a basic truth.
And the Anderson our former Liberal minister of stepping-up carbon emissions said in the 2000s they were pressured by big oil not to listen to government scientists, and they didn't know what they were talking about. He said they were coerced by Exxon-IMperial and friends. Yeah we know, it's hard to avoid the kick-back and the graft and the payoffs
Get real, y'mañana. Your rabid anti-NDP rhetoric was wearing thin some time ago.
Agreed. But whatever it is we want to reduce exports to, corporate America still wants 60%. It's in writing. Signed sealed and delivered long time ago. I suggest that the NDP propose that Ottawa not approve of anymore new oil sands projects. The pipelines are another thing. They've got a phony majority for four years.
[quote = Fidel]
Agreed. But whatever it is we want to reduce exports to, corporate America still wants 60%. It's in writing. Signed sealed and delivered long time ago. I suggest that the NDP propose that Ottawa not approve of anymore new oil sands projects. The pipelines are another thing. They've got a phony majority for four years.
The US violates NAFTA and existing WTO treaties on an ongoing basis. There is little beyond political will and insouciance that prevents Canada, ie, we Canadians, from collectively crushing this monstrous thing. Any of this shit can be argued in Int'l Court, and even successfully. Canada doesn't stand a chance from an economic POV - the US is our major market - but Int'l support might be more helpful.