No candidate will be so politically tone-deaf as to say "Yes, I'm third way." (Okay, maybe Pat Martin.) We'll need to parse their rhetoric more closely, and examine what economic prescriptions they leave on the table and remove from it. As I said in another thread, Topp's rhapsodizing Greece's austerity plan places him, IMO, unequivocally in the third way camp.
NDP Leadership 12
Sun, 2011-09-18 11:33
#52
Sun, 2011-09-18 11:36
#53
knownothing
No candidate will be so politically tone-deaf as to say "Yes, I'm third way." (Okay, maybe Pat Martin.) We'll need to parse their rhetoric more closely, and examine what economic prescriptions they leave on the table and remove from it. As I said in another thread, Topp's rhapsodizing Greece's austerity plan places him, IMO, unequivocally in the third way camp.
This should be the main issue of the leadership race! Are you third way or socialist?
Sun, 2011-09-18 11:42
#54
At least two credible women candidates need to step forward or this race will be a sad affair.
Fine. Name them.
Peggy Nash will be 64 when the 2015 election is held. Credible, but still, most 64-year-olds are getting ready to retire, not to become Prime Minister. (As a 68-year-old I can get away with saying this, I hope). Yes, Jack would have been 65. But if he had not blossomed, in the two months before May 2, into the Leader of the Official Opposition, some people assumed this would have been his last campaign, for that reason.
Niki Ashton will be 33. Okay, Joe Clark was 39 when he took office, the day before he turned 40. I greatly admire Niki Ashton. But 33, really?
Megan Leslie will be 42. I greatly admire her too. I hear her French is coming along, and I hope she runs.
Who else?
Sun, 2011-09-18 11:48
#55
Northern Shoveler
So WIlf are you really saying the NDP can't even field two credible women candidates for leadership. Wow!! I hadn't realized the party had sunk that far in its talent pool.
But mostly all the best potential women fail the language purity test. Oh well that is of course the most important quality in a leader.
Sun, 2011-09-18 11:49
#56
Who else?
The smart-aleck troll in me says, Ruth Ellen Brosseau is 27.
(Then again, she might as well be more qualified for the NDP leadership than Rob Ford is for Toronto mayor.)
Sun, 2011-09-18 11:51
#57
Personally, I don't trust anyone aged 40-60. History shows that they're responsible for all the problems in the world. It's their sense of entitlement.
Sun, 2011-09-18 11:52
#58
Good people can disagree about the substance of some of the NDP foreign policy positions - but I don't see why people are targetting Paul Dewar personally when he is essentially the messenger.If he had just supported the NATO bombing it would have been bad enough and similar to his colleagues who all fell into the same trap. He however is the critic and he is supposed to study the issues and bring nuanced and intelligent debate to the table. That is his job. He did not bring intelligent debate he disseminated the "viagra" lie as a rationale for intervention. He is either gullible or lazy in his fact checking. Not the kind of qualities I want in a leader. The last thing this country needs is an NDP leader that can be led by the nose by those who write NATO briefing notes.
NS, that was a better answer for "why are we singling out Paul Dewar" than what I wrote. Thank you.
Sun, 2011-09-18 11:59
#59
dacckon
If someone actually polled the party, you would see that a majority don't rush to conclusions about people and are mostly undecided because the race hasn't even truely began. I also don't see how women are considered second-tier to any new democrat. I treat all candidates as equals and I will consider them equally(except pat martin). I expect all other members to do the same.
The debate here has turned into a debate over suspicions and allegations. We're still in a stage of determining who will run and gathing support from fellow collegues before turning towards garnering support from ndp members.
Sun, 2011-09-18 12:01
#60
Idealistic Prag...
If someone actually polled the party, you would see that a majority don't rush to conclusions about people and are mostly undecided because the race hasn't even truely began.
I sure hope that's true. I have my doubts, due to conversations here and elsewhere, but man, I hope you're right about that.
Sun, 2011-09-18 12:03
#61
knownothing
If someone actually polled the party, you would see that a majority don't rush to conclusions about people and are mostly undecided because the race hasn't even truely began.
I sure hope that's true. I have my doubts, due to conversations here and elsewhere, but man, I hope you're right about that.
I was at an NDP event yesterday and nobody there had their mind made up
Sun, 2011-09-18 12:12
#62
The debate here has turned into a debate over suspicions and allegations. We're still in a stage of determining who will run and gathing support from fellow collegues before turning towards garnering support from ndp members.
In defense of the debate here, it's the most substantial and vibrant happening anywhere, because virtually all the participants have a stake in the race because they care about the party, its direction, and its chance to form the next government. Unlike virtually every debate on the leadership I've seen anywhere else.
I have a good feeling Megan Leslie will run. (And that, unfortunately, Peggy Nash won't.) Rathika Sitsabaiesan won't be running (apparently she's supporting Julian), but I think she has great potential to be a future leader.
Sun, 2011-09-18 12:17
#63
Leslie needs to run. Just look at the way she can go in question period.
Sun, 2011-09-18 12:50
#64
Boom Boom
Personally, I don't trust anyone aged 40-60. History shows that they're responsible for all the problems in the world. It's their sense of entitlement.
Oh, thank goodness. I'm 62 next month - maybe I should run! 
Sun, 2011-09-18 12:55
#65
Personally, I don't trust anyone aged 40-60. History shows that they're responsible for all the problems in the world. It's their sense of entitlement.
Oh, thank goodness. I'm 62 next month - maybe I should run!
As long as it's not for the Bloc Québecois 
Sun, 2011-09-18 12:57
#66
Personally, I don't trust anyone aged 40-60. History shows that they're responsible for all the problems in the world. It's their sense of entitlement.
Many over-60s and under-40s will agree.
But somehow I doubt you are ruling out Tom Mulcair (who will be only 60 on October 19, 2015), Brian Topp (will be 55), Romeo Saganash (will be 53), Peter Julian (will be 53), and Megan Leslie (will be 42).
Sun, 2011-09-18 13:00
#67
Do babblers think the leadership race might have the unintended consequence of helping out a lot of the rookie NDP MPs by a) deflecting attention of them so that they get more time to develop skills, roots in their ridings? b) highlight the strength of the NDP to Québec through a bilingual leadership field? c) develop the NDP membership in their ridings?
Also, is anyone planning on starting a thread on the next session of Parliament and what the NDP will/should do there?
Sun, 2011-09-18 13:01
#68
But mostly all the best potential women fail the language purity test. Oh well that is of course the most important quality in a leader.
While I like Nycole Turmel a lot, and she meets Unionist's criterion (she'll be 73 on E-day 2015), I would prefer someone whose English is more fluent.
Sun, 2011-09-18 13:03
#69
Boom Boom
Personally, I don't trust anyone aged 40-60. History shows that they're responsible for all the problems in the world. It's their sense of entitlement.
Oh, thank goodness. I'm 62 next month - maybe I should run!
As long as it's not for the Bloc Québecois
Sun, 2011-09-18 14:25
#70
If giving good clips in english in Question Period were the only criterion for success as a political party, the Liberals would have won a majority in the last election.
Sun, 2011-09-18 14:57
#71
While Broadbent may have been "over the Topp," he did what he had to do to get Topp in the race, and that was to issue him with a very high powered endorsement coming right out of the gate.
I dunno. At least according to the media, Topp was already in the race and even leading it since the day after Jack's death. Broadbent's early endorsement and presumptious declaration that Topp was the "only" one seems intended to effectively end the race. That's what chafes me.
I have a real problem with backroom ppl moving into the politcal frontlines. It just doesnt work IMO.
Sun, 2011-09-18 14:57
#72
I have a real problem with backroom ppl moving into the politcal frontlines. It just doesnt work IMO.
Sun, 2011-09-18 15:41
#73
Northern Shoveler
So where is Topp going to get a BC base from if both Cullen and Julian enter the race? I think he has been overhyped by his friends in the MSM.
Sun, 2011-09-18 16:22
#74
So where is Topp going to get a BC base from if both Cullen and Julian enter the race? I think he has been overhyped by his friends in the MSM.
Shhhhh. Don't you know you're speaking heresy? Don't you know that the media talking heads are gods and should be listened to? After all, Paul Martin, Dwayne Lingenfelter, and Andre Boisclair were all annointed the Chosen Ones for their party by the media, and they led their parties on to greatness. The media gods are never wrong!
Sun, 2011-09-18 16:30
#75
Northern Shoveler
I was talking to two of my friends who are party activists and organizers and they went to a meet and greet with Topp. They were extremely underwhelmed. Like many they are waiting for Peter's announcement. Unless Libby were to run I think Peter will have a lot of Lower Mainland support and there are a lot of members here.
Sun, 2011-09-18 16:34
#76
knownothing
So where is Topp going to get a BC base from if both Cullen and Julian enter the race? I think he has been overhyped by his friends in the MSM.Shhhhh. Don't you know you're speaking heresy? Don't you know that the media talking heads are gods and should be listened to? After all, Paul Martin, Dwayne Lingenfelter, and Andre Boisclair were all annointed the Chosen Ones for their party by the media, and they led their parties on to greatness. The media gods are never wrong!
Speaking of Lingenfelter, i talked to Ryan Meili yesterday. It would sure be a different situation in Sask this fall if he was the leader!
Sun, 2011-09-18 16:45
#77
Since it's New Democrats who decide this thing, you'd think some pundit, any pundit, might want to gauge the opinion of New Democrats. Has anyone heard any of that happening? They're just talking amongst themselves, as far as I can tell.
Sun, 2011-09-18 16:49
#78
knownothing
Since it's New Democrats who decide this thing, you'd think some pundit, any pundit, might want to gauge the opinion of New Democrats. Has anyone heard any of that happening? They're just talking amongst themselves, as far as I can tell.
IMO it is because they are trying to control how the opinions of the New Democrats are formed.
Sun, 2011-09-18 16:53
#79
dacckon
Speaking of Lingenfelter, i talked to Ryan Meili yesterday. It would sure be a different situation in Sask this fall if he was the leader!
Is he going to run for a seat provincially? It be nice if he jumped into the next provincial leadership race with a seat in the legislature.
Sun, 2011-09-18 17:00
#80
knownothing
Speaking of Lingenfelter, i talked to Ryan Meili yesterday. It would sure be a different situation in Sask this fall if he was the leader!
Is he going to run for a seat provincially? It be nice if he jumped into the next provincial leadership race with a seat in the legislature.
No he said he gave up that nomination. But he is still involved and out there.
Sun, 2011-09-18 17:03
#81
FWIW, Rex is on the leadership case today. Positive conversation right now about Saganash.
Sun, 2011-09-18 17:48
#82
Speaking of Lingenfelter, i talked to Ryan Meili yesterday. It would sure be a different situation in Sask this fall if he was the leader!
Is he going to run for a seat provincially? It be nice if he jumped into the next provincial leadership race with a seat in the legislature.
No he said he gave up that nomination. But he is still involved and out there.
Sun, 2011-09-18 17:49
#83
Im not sure if the end result would be much better but certainly Meilli is no Link. Meilli was Linked by the Link mob.
Sun, 2011-09-18 17:57
#84
JeffWells wrote:
Since it's New Democrats who decide this thing, you'd think some pundit, any pundit, might want to gauge the opinion of New Democrats. Has anyone heard any of that happening? They're just talking amongst themselves, as far as I can tell
No one has yet polled NDP members but as I have posted previously both Leger and Harris-Decima have polled the public at large. Mulcair had 14 % in both surveys and Topp only 2-3%. At least 50 % were undecided in each.
Sun, 2011-09-18 18:00
#85
Idealistic Prag...
FWIW, Rex is on the leadership case today. Positive conversation right now about Saganash.
Good to hear! CTV's Question Period didn't mention him at all. I guess that's one of the disadvantages of a quiet launch on a Friday, but still.
Sun, 2011-09-18 18:34
#86
dacckon
Does anyone have a video clip of his announcement?
Sun, 2011-09-18 18:45
#87
Does anyone have a video clip of his announcement?
It's at [url=http://www.abitibiexpress.ca/Actualites/Politique/2011-09-16/video-27513... link[/url] (French only).
Sun, 2011-09-18 19:02
#88
It's at [url=http://www.abitibiexpress.ca/Actualites/Politique/2011-09-16/video-27513... link[/url] (French only).
Nice guy... good resume... but is he always that low key on the stump?
Sun, 2011-09-18 21:02
#89
Here is Cross Country Checkup discussion on NDP leadership race. I only heard the first hour, and heard at least two English-speaking callers were really impressed by Thomas Mulcair.
One caller said that he tried to sign up for a NDP membership, but he was frustrated by the NDP.ca website. I took a look at the website and saw the "Leadership 2012 - Be a Part of It" lead-ins (there were two of them on the front page), and I wonder if at least one should spell out "Join the NDP" instead. Or perhaps the lead-ins were put on the websiter after the caller tried signing up earlier in the week.
Sun, 2011-09-18 21:05
#90
knownothing
Isn't this nice? The Toronto Sun endorses Brian Topp because he has a grip on reality because of his time in the Romanow government. Sheesh
Sun, 2011-09-18 21:33
#91
Wow, the Sun doesn't need to wait to see the field either. I'm impressed.
Rather than siding with the protesters tearing apart Greece for their entitlements, he supports the austerity measures, recently writing in the Globe, "responsible social democrats in all jurisdictions are, and should be, allergic to excessive reliance on debt to finance government." He's no Mark Steyn, but at least he lives on Planet Earth when it comes to the debt crisis. Most of the NDP does not.Finally, and most troubling to many socialists, Topp has worked in the private sector. He doesn't think corporations are evil organizations hell bent on destroying the country.
Sun, 2011-09-18 22:03
#92
dacckon
I thought the cons were hounding him last week for being a "union stooge". This week they are his favorite in a race that barely started with only two people running. Next week they'll call him the "co-op clusterfuck"
Perhaps they seek a new strategy fighting progressives, to divide them and then conquer them(it makes sense, the end goal of the cons now is to split the vote for progressives). Topp hasn't even told us fully his economic views. And how silly, Layton worked for the private sector too if I recall(a small buisness). As did Tommy Douglas in his early life, and many small buisnesses supported the ccf. And its strange to pick a candidate, when the race just started and there are only two currently running and that he hasn't released his future vision of Canada.
Sun, 2011-09-18 22:12
#93
I thought the cons were hounding him last week for being a "union stooge".
But that was the Conservative Party. I wouldn't expect them to issue a press release saying "Pretty please, Dippers, choose this one." The Sun can do that.
Sun, 2011-09-18 22:38
#94
dacckon
Oh I recall stockwell day advocating Mulcair. Its just sillyness. The whole article outrages me because its just random baseless chatter. It implies theres a great divide in the NDP, each week theres a new division in the NDP. One week its BC vs Quebec, next week who knows what random chatter they'll post. Look at this debate, the candidates are all nice to each other http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJnvzI7A7Es
The way the article is written ticks me off. Its good that they are scared of Topp, but they know that the left hates them and that they are trying to divide people.
Sun, 2011-09-18 22:39
#95
Malcolm
Knownothing. Glad to see clearly that you have no idea what the Romanow government was facing in 1991. I will bear that in mind as I weigh your analysis in the future.
Oddly, while there was lots of quibbling over the details, there was broad support for the Romanow government's priority on rstoring fiscal credibility since the alternatives were too damning to contemplate. (And despite MacKinnon's self-serving fictions in her memoire, there was nobody in the NDP arguing for default.)
Could the Romanow government have done better? Probably.
Did the Romanow government make mistakes? Undoubtedly.
But clearly you fail to understand what was going on. A far right government had deliberately driven the province to the brink of default. It wasn't incompetence, nor was it a blind faith in discredited ideology. It was a deliberate policy choice (much like the Tea Party in the US Cangress a few weeks ago) that they hoped would trigger an economic meltdown on somebody else's watch.
The fact that the Romanow government managed to restore fiscal sanity without an all out attack on the poor - and even to be the first province to balance it's annual budget - was a victory for progressive principles.
As to the rather assinine point about the NDP vote over four elections, perhaps you could show me an example of a government, elected in a sweep, whose vote did NOT show general decline over the next three elections. The salient point is that, having made tough decisions and having demanded sacrifice from all parts of the Saskatchewan population, the NDP proceeded to win three more elections.
But then, there are some who claim to be on the left who agree with the Devine / Tea Party desire for an economic meltdown. I make it a point to give little credence to such views.
Sun, 2011-09-18 23:00
#96
Malcolm
Does he have a right to run? Yes. Is he qualified? I don't think so. And I think it quite arrogant of someone to assume they can go right to the top job without ever having held public office before.
Then by all means, vote against him. I have no problem agreeing that never having held public office is a disadvantage. I just think it's daft to claim that this alone disqualifies him. Prior experience in public office is ONE facto - and we've seen no end of folk with that qualification who have been manifestly inept leaders.
Sun, 2011-09-18 23:04
#97
Malcolm
Exactly, and when I brought up Brian Topp working for the Romanow govt it was because he could be a third way candidate.
Ah. So really, it's all just paranoia then. Thanks for clearing that up.
Sun, 2011-09-18 23:24
#98
Malcolm
It is curious to see messages claiming Topp is disqualified because he's never been elected, followed by messages blissfully imagining how much better off the SNDP would have been had Meili won instead of Link. Something of a disconnect here.
As with the provincial race (where I supported Meili), I will weigh my options as the race develops and I will avoid the foolishness of rejecting candidates based on arbitrary resume requirements or arbitrary shibboleths.
(And FWIW, I am not likely to support Brian Topp. I just think the vast bulk of the criticism of him here has been complete crap.)
Sun, 2011-09-18 23:37
#99
Oddly, while there was lots of quibbling over the details, there was broad support for the Romanow government's priority on rstoring fiscal credibility since the alternatives were too damning to contemplate.
One quibble I recall having was Romanow's immediate legislation banning the Saskatchewan Union of Nurses' strike - which they bravely defied for a week, costing them $120,000 in contempt of court citations. I may be wrong, but I don't recall decades of next-door Manitoba NDP governments needing to resort to such a measure. Even Grant Devine let them strike without back-to-work legislation.
But as long as it restored Saskatchewan's fiscal credibility, well, ok then.
Now that we're on that subject, was Brian Topp still deputy chief of staff to Romanow in April 1999, when the strike was broken? Just wondering, given that he is painted by the Cons as a union stooge.
Sun, 2011-09-18 23:45
#100
Malcolm
Unionist, the 1999 nurses strike occured after the period which is the basis of knownothing's attacks and is therefore not strictly relevant to the Romanow government's actions in avoiding default.
Which isn't to say that this isn't an area where Topp's record can be questioned, though given where I was working at the time, it isn't appropriate for me to enter into that particular discussion.
Mon, 2011-09-19 01:01
#101
If I recall layton didn't have a seat in the House of Commons when he was elected leader. I suppose when I get to know a bit more about Topp Ill be in a better position to comment. But the party has made great strides of late and I'm just not sure Leader of the Official Opposition should be an entry level position.