Socialist Thornhill Aliens Do The Darndest Things!

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Wilf Day

Robo wrote:

I have attended many NDP meetings over the years.  At first, Barry was taken as a voice for a group with the ONDP.  For at least the last five years, people who tell me they are on the left of the NDP have groaned as Barry approached a microphone and told me afterward that he had just done more harm to the cause he claims to promote than benefit the cause.  From having seen him in action myself (if only Barry could be seen from afar by me) and from the reaction of colleagues who otherwise all agree that the ONDP should move further to the left, Barry's words do not match his actions in terms of have the effect of promoting the left within the NDP.  That is only my opinion, and I am sure that others have different opinions.  But I do know that I am not the only person with this opinion.

I use to assume that Weisleder was being paid by CSIS and its predecessor to infiltrate the trots, report on their activities, and do a little discreet disruptive adventurism when the chance arose. But he's been at it far too long. CSIS does not have an unlimited budget to spend on such a bit player. So I have concluded he is exactly what he appears to be, which is really not worth a lot of further discussion.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Wilf Day wrote:

 So I have concluded he is exactly what he appears to be, which is really not worth a lot of further discussion.

Safe to say you were not one of the MEMBERS who voted for him as a candidate.  He was elected by someone.  Do you think they didn't know him or had not heard about him after all these years?  

This is not really about Barry it is about an undemocratic top down nomination process.  They could have just said no when he applied but they calculated he would lose.  If the rest of their election strategy is a well thought out then the ONDP is in big trouble.

Robo

Michelle wrote:
Yes, that is a well-worn anecdote on babble.  What does that have to do with the fact that he was the democratically-elected candidate in Thornhill? 

I have not claimed to be a voter in Thornhill or present at the nomination meeting.  The line that I quoted from NS in my post above was, in part, "...anyone to the left of Ford is welcome in the ONDP but not anyone who expounds actual socialist beliefs". Barry is his own worst enemy.  If his intent truly is to promote movement of the NDP to the left of its current position, he does more to harm that cause than to help it.  There is no effective way to explain this in print -- one has to witness him in operation.

NS noted he was commenting from afar. I do not have to deal with Barry on a riding assocaition level or any basis more frequent than Provincial Council meetings from time to time, and that has been enough to have worn out my patience.  He has been lionized as being outcast for being a socialist.  All that I have written is that, having had to hear him torpedo his own causes more than promote them, there is more to understand the role that Barry plays than him calling himself a socialist.

Sorry if I did not make that clear, but I thought that I had.  

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

So far I have not heard any discussion touching on socialism in the NDP from the point of view: what kind of socialism should the NDP strive for and how do we put it into action? I have only heard it from the point of view: should we get socialism out of the NDP? If those who despise Mr. Weisleder really want to stop listening to this unpalatable person, it would seem they need only shift from the second question to the first. Instead, we have chortles like Stockholm's, which actually ask the opposite. Indeed, it seems like Mr. Weisleder is the only reason the NDP mentions the "S"-word at all...

knownothing knownothing's picture

I think we need to stand up more for public ownership of essential services

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Well Catchfire, one of the most important socialist concepts IMHO is democracy.   Overturning a democratic decision made by the local base membership of the party should only be done in the most extraordinary circumstances ... like a candidate having a criminal conviction for something that is beyond minor.   Or some kind of serious violation of party policy.    It has to be something beyond "I don't like you".

 

 

Fidel

Catchfire wrote:

So far I have not heard any discussion touching on socialism in the NDP from the point of view: what kind of socialism should the NDP strive for and how do we put it into action? I have only heard it from the point of view: should we get socialism out of the NDP?

We were actually waiting for someone just like you to present a grand plan for Ontario. Let's have it and step on it.

Catchfire wrote:
If those who despise Mr. Weisleder really want to stop listening to this unpalatable person, it would seem they need only shift from the second question to the first. Instead, we have chortles like Stockholm's, which actually ask the opposite. Indeed, it seems like Mr. Weisleder is the only reason the NDP mentions the "S"-word at all...
 

Yes we all found Barry Weisleder to be despicable person, and that's why he's out. It must be. It must be the same reason Lesley Hughes was run out of town by her own party - because they hated her and wanted her to die and nothing to do with her outspoken political views. Because we know every single person in that party believes in government fairy tales deep down and goes without saying. Much. I guess we'll never know and have no choice but to ad lib and fill in the blanks when it comes to that one, too. It's a perfect democracy we have nothing Orwellian about it. Because we know that our's is a democratic society where everyone speaks openly and freely without fear of political retributions or umderming a worst-past-the-post team effort on the one day every four years that actually counts for anything in this semi-frozen Puerto Rico where even the Polar bears are homeless now. But all of that and more is immaterial to what's happening in but one instance of the imperialism abroad thousands of miles away in a tiny country in the Middle East. It's a strange way to make a stand against imperialism by knowingly bringing the wrath of lapdog newz media and down on your team and providing the oppo one more opportunity to discuss everything and anything except what matters to a true majority of Ontarians come election time.

Just like those waiting for the perfect revolution, we're waiting for the perfect opportunity for socialism to succeed first good chance that presents itself. This is not one of them. In fact, it's not even a good time for neoliberal ideology. The same people who elected Pinocchio's party and the Harrisites before them? - it is they who will be doing the choosing. Let them marinate in their own juices a while longer. Let them come to us, and let us tell them it will take some time to fix what was broken so badly over the last 3.5 decades and counting. There are no quick fixes for the current state of affairs in Ontario. We're all out of promises for slap-dash and slip-shod over one four-year term at a time. Harris and Pinocchio made sure of it.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Bizarro

genstrike
Fidel

And thanks for that helpful remark. 

Well like Barry Weisleder, I'm not afraid of anyone or their puny thoughts either. But I recognize when speaking my mind becomes detrimental to a worst-past-the-post team effort. So does the LPC and Lesley Hughes now realize it, and whether each and every one of them in that party are all down with bizarro, crazy George dubya's lunatic government conspiracy theory regarding 9/11 or not is anyone's guess. I don't think they've ever had a vote on it and tend to do certain things by backroom decision making themselves and a lot more often than the NDP at either level.

Someone mentioned democratic debate, and I imagine they meant one where people speak freely and openly about matters. So far all I've read in this thread are comments of a bullying, gang-up nature with a lot of accusations daring anyone to provide an opposing POV. You wanted free and open debate - you've got one.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture
Fidel

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/rabblerabble/Capture-9.gif[/img]

And you're doing a heckuva job.

Meanwhile we're waiting for the Thornhill aliens to write us a grand socialist plan for Puerto Ontario. And they're taking forever about it as aliens often do.

Krago

Here's another guy upset at the NDP nomination process.  He's the former federal NDP candidate now running as an Independent in Sarnia-Lambton.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Ha ha. "I award you NO points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

genstrike

thank you, I'm here all night (sadly).  If the thread is going to be derailed, at least it should be an amusing derailment.

Fidel

ikosmos wrote:

Ha ha. "I award you NO points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

 

"Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Alright, let's stop the personal attacks and the pile-on here. Back to the task at hand.

Fidel, presumably, Barry wants to introduce a socialist program to Ontario, but he was denied the opportunity. 

Fidel

I know he's a socialist. What other experience does he have?  I'm a socialist and have no experience with financing nationalisations at the non-national level.  How does he plan to renationalise things like Nortel now it's been pawned off to the four winds? Where is the plan to finance it all and over what time frame? I'm all for nationalization but in a modern sense. Does Hugo Chavez nationalize foreign-based oil companies, or does he nationalise the oil profits? We can have nationalism and nationalised profits without bankrupting the province six times as badly as Pinocchio McGuinty and crew have already and zip to show for it. What does Barry mean when he says nationalise? Does he want the means of production down to car plants, machines and lathes in public hands regardless of how dated and worn-out the equipment, factories and mills might be? Does Barry want to saddle us with galactic debt with buying a pig in poke? Nationalisation sounds good, but what does he really mean?

And we don't need another Nortel, for example,  run by the people and just as badly as the corporatocracy ran it into the ground.  And we would need money even in good economic times. I can't think of a worse time in recent history for the public to be borrowing money from private banksters. This plan of Barry's had better work at least as good as Hugo Chavez' plan at the national level, or we socialists will never hear the last of it. Really.

Sam Gindin wrote:
Workers surrendered their capacity to do, the capacity for the creative planning and execution of goals...Hierarchical-authoritarian management systems exclude any hint of institutional forms for the running of workplaces in ways that combine efficiency and democracy. It is, for example, possible to imagine workers taking over existing technology and modifying it, but much harder to imagine ...what entirely different forms of collective democratic coordination and management might look like, The democratic collective labourer is a productive force yet to be invented. -- Socialism with sober senses, 1998

And I agree that we must make a stab at it at some point. We learn best by doing, and, yes, by making mistakes as well. 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

This is not about Barry's plans since he has clearly said he would run exclusively on the ONDP platform.  This is about a party with the "cute" name that is unfortunately showing it has no idea what democracy looks like.  

I have been politically active for decades because I have views on politics and policies and would like to see them implemented in government. That  to me is what joining a political party is supposed to be about.  Why would anyone join the NDP to influence party policies when they treat people like they treated Barry?  What would be the point?  

Of course many people like the hierarchy's minions to hand them their marching orders and like good pawns they take direction and are thankful for their peon role in the process. Just like many catholics and other Xians are quite happy to have their religious beliefs set by them from on high.

Rah Rah NDP you too can be a pawn in the party as long as you stay to your rightful place in the ordained pecking order. 

Democracy is what the leadership says it is and NOTHING else. 

Fidel

In my opinion, socialism in one province is not doable. It was doable in the 1950s and 60s in Tommy Douglas' day, but that was then. No one has ever seen an actual plan that would work within the larger reality of today's top-down neoliberal setup in Ottawa. In the end socialists for socialism in one province would loathe their own creation. And it's my guess that they would disredit the party for many years to come in the process. I'm with Barry Weisleder in that I will be voting NDP next month. It's the most democratic and most realistic option there is. There are real people with real needs in Ontario who are counting on us to win an election. That's the job at hand as mundane as it seems.

And worst-past-the-post is still a reality today. It's an obsolete method of voting that tends not to reward high quality candidates like Barry. The larger reality and context of this battle for democracy is that there are hundreds of thousands of children and many ordinary people not living very well in Ontario today. They are counting on the NDP to get elected and help them live better lives in the here and now not in an ideal futuristic Ontario. Because in the long run, none of them have time to wait for socialism in one province. In the long run, we all run out of time waiting for the perfect revolution, that one which will never happen.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..what i am involved in and what i seek is participatory democracy. voting ndp doesn't bring me any closer to that end unless they actively pursue prop rep at the very least. as a priority equal to any other priority they might have. 

Fidel

Where in the ONDP platform does it say they don't support prop. rep? I can only presume that if the ONDP supported the Citizen Assembly's decision for MMP in 2007 that support still exists.

Allowing a Liberal or Tory Party voter to speak for you on election day is a sure way of guaranteeing the CA's decision, and the law society of Canada's decision for PR will be ignored in the halls of power for many years to come.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Fidel wrote:

Where in the ONDP platform does it say they don't support prop. rep? I can only presume that if the ONDP supported the Citizen Assembly's decision for MMP in 2007 that support still exists.

Allowing a Liberal or Tory Party voter to speak for you on election day is a sure way of guaranteeing the CA's decision, and the law society of Canada's decision for PR will be ignored in the halls of power for many years to come.

..the point being actively pursuing. but you already knew this.

..eta: fidel you respond to my concerns like i was an idiot. lecturing me on how bad the cons and libs are like i've lived in a cave all these years instead of being the activist i am. i find this disrespectful and i wish you would stop doing it.

Fidel

Well I'm insulted now as well. Our tolerance for each other's comments is at an end.  I think we should stop replying to one another and let someone else have a turn. Deal or no deal.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..all i ever wanted fidel was for you to address my concerns directly. instead i get deflection. your wrong to suggest i am intolerant of you because i am not. there are issues that i am in agreement with you even if you didn't know that. i wish that you could accept that when i differ with you on the ndp that it is legit and it has a solid foundation. and then that you would debate me. i hope you reconsider your proposal.

 

2dawall

The issue is that the NDP cannot tolerate democratic processes when it conflicts with executive priorities; the executives of the Party that is. I guess it could apply to corporate executives too.

howeird beale

Gee, Michelle, you go after Life because...

Michelle wrote:

You know nothing about what happened

 

Yeah, well it's not a matter of public record is it? So all that's left is speculation. Nice reasoning. I haven't heard such a load of self-important hectoring claptrap since your dismal tenure as a mod.

"Withdraw your statement?"

Get over yourself.

 

And, Barry, as a male, going after a female leader of the party by challenging her feminism?

I'll bet she hit the roof.

If I were her I'd toss his ass out of there too.

StuartACParker

Michelle wrote:
The NDP is also going to have to get with the program when it comes to online discussion, blogging, and opinion.  Social media as we know it has been around for over a decade now.  There is no way that people, especially younger people, are going to be able to track back for the last decade and divulge every post they ever made online. 

If that's the bar now, then everyone's a liar.

That's the plan. As the NDP amply demonstrated when it implemented welfare "reform" in BC, bureaucrats have limitless power and the people are cowed when rules exist that are designed to guarantee that everyone is breaking them at all times. It is foolish to think the NDP's rules are unintentional. They are, in my view, crafted to hand bureaucrats in the office the power to disqualify any candidate at any time without need to explain themselves.

Quote:
Finding people who have never posted any strong opinions or anything critical of anything, or anything that can be twisted by the National Post into something bad is going to get harder and harder, as more people engage in discussions online.  It's not just a marginal activity anymore - everyone does it, and they do it all day and night.

Do we want to have only people who have known since they were 12 that they were going to grow up and be a politician and grew up ensuring they never made any comment online that could be a "gaffe" a decade later?  Or do we want real people, with real opinions, real insights, and real humanity to run?

The election of Rob Ford amply demonstrates the willingness of voters to pay a high price for flawed, authentic figures in public life. One of the reasons the right consistently beats us is because of their willingness to run risks we are too afraid to run, like running real, flawed, complex people instead of people doing department store manequin impressions on the hustings.

StuartACParker

howeird beale wrote:

And, Barry, as a male, going after a female leader of the party by challenging her feminism?

I'll bet she hit the roof.

If I were her I'd toss his ass out of there too.

Supposedly we are members of a party in which the leader does not and should not enjoy the power to unilaterally silence people for thinking thoughts different than hers. Did the NDP turn into a line organization while I wasn't looking? Maybe you'd be happier in the CP or CPC-ML.

Also, seriously, what if it were the premier of Alberta, Newfoundland or BC who was bragging about her ability to "balance a budget in heels" and trotting out shopworn cliches reinforcing double standards about male and female sexual activity? Would THEIR gender trump established understandings of feminism too?

knownothing knownothing's picture

[quote=Fidel]

In my opinion, socialism in one province is not doable.

Why is that? NAFTA? How far could a Socialist Party of Saskatchewan take it if it got elected under the current setup?

howeird beale

Another man telling the female leader, the FIRST female leader, of the provincial party, why he is disappointed in her as a feminist. Classy.

Barry shot his mouth off in an utterly inappropriate way, and not merely in a sexist way, scarcely a month before every one knew the writ would be dropped. He shit on the leader of what was supposed to be his team, and in a really offensive way.

If I went into the feminist forum and started telling them what lousy feminists they were, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat.

I stuck up for her. I'm not going to argue this garbage further. Its not my place, or yours.

And he should have bloody well known better.

 

And I cant find attribution, but I dont know how many feminist activists I've known who adored this well known quote, which I believe Horwath was referencing:

"Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, only backwards and in high heels."

http://www.gofeminist.org.uk/index.php/2011/feminist-quotes/

Fidel

2dawall wrote:

The issue is that the NDP cannot tolerate democratic processes when it conflicts with executive priorities; the executives of the Party that is. I guess it could apply to corporate executives too.

 

It's all about being first past some arbitrary post. We must all march to the beat of worst past the post in this Northern Puerto Rico,  unfortunately.

The post needs a chainsaw taken to it.

 

Ken Burch

Agreed that FPTP needs to go.  But Fidel, are you actually saying that, until it does, an NDP leadership is generally going to be JUSTIFIED in doing things like this?

Fidel

Ken Burch wrote:

Agreed that FPTP needs to go.  But Fidel, are you actually saying that, until it does, an NDP leadership is generally going to be JUSTIFIED in doing things like this?

 

Under a WorstPastThePost electoral system, yes. By the obsolete system's rules, written, unwritten or otherwise, any party is justified in hand-picking candidates with the best chances of winning by a phony majority by any means necessary, whether the ideal candidate is a white male with impressive credentials lazy as hell or not, or whether that candidate is a person of colour and male, or perhaps the candidate is simply a well known radio or TV personality in a community and happens to be a good baby kisser. No one here talks abot the electoral dynamics of the 19th century electoral system invented before electricity, but the worst-past effect does play a large role in things like this. Oh for sure. But let's be clear on this - we are at least talking about progressive change for the better while the two old line parties are still looking somewhat mostly white and mostly male percentage wise. It's a start, Ken. We have our large conservative minority ruling the roost up here(down for you), too. It will take some time for them to fade off into the sunset and make way for a younger generation of voters, and they, too, will have high expectations no doubt.  And the young people aren't liking the fruits of a more prosperous cold war era before them as much as their parents and grandparents. Perhaps it will be a good thing.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture
Fidel

M, we see you're totally off of 'the Arctic is Screwed' thread and focusing on our deeply flawed electoral system while pushing for pro rep for Tories and corporate polluters in Manitoba. Good for you.

StuartACParker

howeird beale wrote:

Another man telling the female leader, the FIRST female leader, of the provincial party, why he is disappointed in her as a feminist. Classy.

So you're not a fan of answering questions directly asked of you? Fair enough.

Is it possible for women to ever be wrong about feminism? If not, I look forward to your spirited defense of Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Margaret Thatcher and Phyllis Schaffly.

Quote:
And I cant find attribution, but I dont know how many feminist activists I've known who adored this well known quote, which I believe Horwath was referencing:

"Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, only backwards and in high heels."

http://www.gofeminist.org.uk/index.php/2011/feminist-quotes/

Actually, I noted that on the first day the posters were released. Nice to know that you consider Ginger Rogers to be a relevant authority on feminism today and discourse on male-female relations from an era when women weren't allowed to have credit cards and had only recently been recently enfranchised to be completely portable and representative of where feminism is today. I'm sure it's just a matter of time now before you start quoting Booker T Washington's "fill your bucket" speech as a relevant guide on contemporary anti-racism policy.

howeird beale

So now you're comparing the tremendously successful, progressive, popular leader of the party to...

Phillis Schlafly

On election day!

WOW

That's so dumb I dont have to respond.

howeird beale

He shouldn't have to suffer these indignities, the poor thing. He should take his fraternal coterie and go. After all, he's certainly enjoyed tremendous success without the NDP with the Revolutionary Marxist Group:

Quote:

Riverdale:

Barry Weisleder (Ind [RMG]) 117

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_general_election,_1977

Way to come sixth! He got over half the votes of the Communist and the Libertarian! What an organizer!

How did capital not fall???

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

1977 wow I guess no one can ever change their party.  So what Liberal is the presumed front runner in the federal leadership race?  

Yup 35 years ago Barry did poorly in that race but still managed to get a higher percentage of the vote than the NDP in PEI did earlier this week.  

It seems some in the party want the NDP to build a big tent that excludes anyone to the left of a social democrat but with an open invitation to anyone to the right.  Sounds to me like the party that Rae tried to build.  How did that go the last time in Ontario?  Didn't you get one term of government before you got sent to the third party wilderness. 

I live in BC but I heard there was an election on in Ontario.  I am surprised that on E-Day anyone with deep commitments to the NDP would have the time to diss their opponents in the party instead of pulling the vote.

howeird beale

nah, I dont accept your premise. he wasn't kicked out for being leftist. He was kicked out 'cuz he's a jackass. And, as his vote count shows, a loser.

Hell I could run on the Khmer Rouge ticket and get more votes.

StuartACParker

howeird beale wrote:

So now you're comparing the tremendously successful, progressive, popular leader of the party to...

Phillis Schlafly

No. One of two things is going on here: either your reading comprehension is really really bad or you are being deliberately dishonest so as to avoid admitting that your argument doesn't make sense. And the longer this alleged conversation goes on, the less I care which.

You argued that because Andrea Horwath is a woman, everything she does is infallibly feminist and cannot be questioned by any non-female. I asked if this applied to all women including individuals like Phyllis Schaffly. You then claimed that I compared Horwath to Schaffly. Nice try but anybody with basic fouth grade reading comprehension or better can see that I did no such thing.

I also note that you have refused to answer any question I have asked you in our exchanges, instead choosing to offer a series of accusatory misrepresentations of my words. I see no point in continuing to correspond with you. You appear to lack both the wit and the honesty (likely both) to have the most rudimentary political discussion.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Yup 35 years ago Barry did poorly in that race but still managed to get a higher percentage of the vote than the NDP in PEI did earlier this week.

Yeah, no kidding. How ironic to see a supporter of the NDP - of all parties - slag a candidate because he didn't get a lot of votes in an election!

Ken Burch

Spector, what do those little squiggles you've put under your name mean, if you don't mind someone asking?  I just Googled them and got nothing.  Is that someone's signature, or what?

Ken Burch

Noticed that the APPROVED Thornhill candidate got about 10%.  So, on balance, was the switch-out really worth it in electoral terms?

(The only good thing you could say about the result there was that Bernie Farber didn't get in.)

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

Spector, what do those little squiggles you've put under your name mean, if you don't mind someone asking?  I just Googled them and got nothing.  Is that someone's signature, or what?

It's a secret message in Georgian.

Ken Burch

Ahhh.  I'll have to see if they have that on Babel Fish. 

(on edit)

So far, no luck...could you at least tell me if it would get me punched out in Tbilisi because somebody thought I'd said it about his sister?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

No, it wouldn't - even if you could pronounce it.

Doug

The big story out of Thornhill seems to be that the Libertarian nearly beat the Greens.

 

http://www.wemakevotingeasy.ca/en/general-election-district-results.aspx?d=089

StuartACParker

Howeird, just to clarify, I'm not a "rhetoric scholar," nor am I a "vanguardist" nor an opponent of dancing.

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