So, Revenue Canada expects folks to be honest in reporting their tips? How well does that work? I think we should just ban the practice of tipping altogether and insist that workers be paid for their labour.
'tipping' in restaurants and other places
Mon, 2010-05-10 23:12
#52
Boom Boom
Mon, 2010-05-10 23:14
#53
Well boom boom, they expect them to be honest if they are self employed too ;o)
Mon, 2010-05-10 23:25
#54
Boom Boom
Good point!
Tue, 2010-05-11 01:22
#55
bagkitty
I don't know of any jobs in Canada that are allowed to pay less than minimum wage. Except perhaps for the "training wage" introduced in BC by the Campbell socreds. Are you talking about subcontracting or something?
[Note: the link below opens a PDF, not sure if anyone has problems with that]
Minimum wage also does not apply to work (in Alberta at least) governed by the Masters and Servants Act - and such work is defined as "Every contract or hire of personal service" - essentially domestic and attendant work. I remember several years ago complaining to the front desk at a Canada Employment Office (whatever it was called) about a job they had posted on the general boards, where the salary was just under $2.00 per hour (less than a third of the provincial minimum wage at that time) - the "employers" were seeking to hire an attendant for an infirm relative. I questioned if it was legal for them to be posting a job that was paying less than minimum wage, and they pointed out that it wasn't governed by the Employment Law Statutes, but rather was governed by the Masters and Servants Act. I have often wondered if other provinces had the same loophole law.
[ETA: oh, and the Act is up to date as of July 1, 2009, to my knowledge it has not been repealed and is still in force]
Tue, 2010-05-11 09:07
#56
Wow. A "master" can include a corporation and a partnership. How do you give "personal service" to a corporation or partnership?
I guess this is the law used for nannies and other domestic help. But it's a little sparse on language. It doesn't say anywhere that the employer under this act is exempted from other provincial labour laws. It doesn't say anything about contracting out of minimum wage, although the paragraphs on recovery of unpaid wages (which constitute the bulk of the text) certainly seem to imply paltry sums. But again, there's nothing in there saying that minimum wage does not apply. Am I missing something?
Tue, 2010-05-11 10:27
#57
I'm curious about this now, because just looking at the relevant sections in the AB Employment Standards code and regs, I do not see any mention of this act, nor do min wage exemptions apply to domestics, if that's what we're talking about. There are also maximums to be charged for room and board of live-in employees.
So to whom does this Masters and Servants Act apply? And secondly, how would it define "personal service"? Any legal services folks out there who might know?
Tue, 2010-05-11 12:35
#58
bagkitty
Jas: Hope someone does come up with a clarification - I was just passing on the information that was relayed to me at the Employment Office (federal office, also the place that handles EI claims...), I was quite surprised when they told me this, as I mentioned, I was wondering if it was legal for them to have the posting up in the first place. Perhaps their interpretation (or is that excuse) is incorrect, but that was the information that was relayed to me.
Boom Boom, sorry to have drifted from the OP to such an extent, but I saw Jas' remarks and I remembered this incident.
Tue, 2010-05-11 13:03
#59
Boom Boom
I remember long ago being in the company of big tippers who liked to show off their wealth, haven't seen that in a while. But, then again, I haven't been in the company of rich folks in a long time. It's starting to make sense now that some reastaurant workers can clean up on tipping, but I'd still rather see everyone get a fair wage and tipping banned.
Tue, 2010-05-11 13:05
#60
Snert
Just out of curiousity, if it were up to you, what would you say would be a reasonable but fair wage?
Tue, 2010-05-11 14:43
#61
bagkitty
Well, I would take the average rent for a one bedroom apartment in the city I live in, multiply it by 4, andI would consider that a suitable (reasonable and fair) monthly wage... based on the CMHC guidelines that providing shelter should take 25% of an individual's (gross) income. What is your standard Snert?
Tue, 2010-05-11 15:40
#62
Boom Boom
I wouldn't decide what a fair wage for restaurant staff is. That should be decided by those involved.
Tue, 2010-05-11 16:18
#63
Snert
What is your standard Snert?
I'd take a look at the actual job, job requirements, and what it entails, and compare it to similar jobs. I think that if servers were to be paid a fair wage based on the actual work they do it might be similar to a warehouse worker who goes from aisle to aisle filling orders. Just a ballpark guess: about $15/hour.
I'm not sure that your way is really feasible. Isn't pay based on what you do, rather than how much money you'd like to have or feel you need to have? As an analogy, if you wanted to buy, say, my old turntable that you saw on Craigslist, would you expect to pay something close to what it's worth, both to you and in the market? Or would you expect to pay however much money I happened to need at the time? If I said "well, the market value is about $150, but I need $300 if I'm going to cover rent..." would you agree that the turntable is now worth $300? More importantly, would you pay it?
Tue, 2010-05-11 16:36
#64
Catchfire
If I am a business owner and I purchase labour at the market price, that usually means that I am going to make a profit that exceeds that of the worker selling her labour. Why is this person buying a turntable? If it's not to flip it on ebay for $500, it doesn't make much sense as an analogy.
Yet irrespective of market value, those who support a liveable wage rather than the lowest legallly possible, don't believe that "pay is based on what you do," but that every person deserves to make a living doing what they do. If we as a society think we need Starbucks baristas to get on with our lives, why don't we pay them liveable wages?
Tue, 2010-05-11 17:01
#65
Snert
Yet irrespective of market value, those who support a liveable wage rather than the lowest legallly possible, don't believe that "pay is based on what you do," but that every person deserves to make a living doing what they do.
That seems to presuppose that every job, from brain surgeon to paperboy, is of such value as to warrant this. That's an admirable, but purely emotion-based, sentiment. It's like saying "everyone is beautiful" while at the same time finding some people attractive and others unattractive.
If we as a society think we need Starbucks baristas to get on with our lives, why don't we pay them liveable wages?
Perhaps someone did the math, and decided that a $9 cappucino isn't all that critical to their life after all.
If it's not to flip it on ebay for $500, it doesn't make much sense as an analogy.
What does motivation have to do with it? If I need $300 for rent, why isn't my turntable worth that? You seem to be saying that if I need $300 for rent, my labour (regardless of what it entails) should be worth that.
Tue, 2010-05-11 17:34
#66
bagkitty
Snert, please don't try to put words into my mouth, I think other posters would appreciate it if you refrained from doing it to them to.
What I said, within the context your question as to what constitutes a fair wage, was that a reasonable and fair wage would be one that would allow an individual worker to afford basic accomodation (the one bedroom apartment) without having to pay more than 25% of their gross income on it - to be clear, this is based on the assumption that the worker is pulling down something close to full time hours. Rather than peg it to some arbitrary per hour figure seized out of the air. My suggestion is pegged to a real requirement for a dignified life (that being shelter) and in accordance with the guidelines suggested by CMHC. Nowhere do I suggest that this is the only possible wage - I am certain some skill sets will be considered more valuable, and higher pay would be offered - they could probably afford better apartments... Remember, it was you who specifically asked what was a reasonable and fair wage. I think most of us here believe that there is a certain dignity to work, and the remuneration should reflect that. To peg a figure that would entail some workers being reduced to living in poverty offends the dignity of that worker, and of the work itself.
Tue, 2010-05-11 17:55
#67
Snert
I think it's a matter of coming at it from different ends. IMHO, labour is like anything else we sell; subject to how much others want to pay for it. And ideally (IMHO) the pay would be proportional to the difficulty and exclusivity of the work (perhaps I'm using that word incorrectly; I'm not sure how to say that the value of labour goes up when few people can do it, like brain surgery, and down when nearly anyone can, like mopping).
So to me, a fair price for labour really is like a fair price for my turntable. Based on the value in the market, and its intrinsic value.
I'm not specifically disagreeing with what you've said about the importance of a wage you can live on, other than to say that that's not how I'd calculate the value of labour. To me a fair wage for a server is going to be based on how hard they have to work, what skills or credentials they need, and the "supply" of servers competing for server jobs, but NOT based on how much they have to come up with to pay their rent.
And at this point I'd like to add that I'm not on any kind of mission to cut the wages of servers or anyone else. But if we're going to talk about the value of a job, we'll eventually end up talking about how that would be calculated.
Snert, please don't try to put words into my mouth, I think other posters would appreciate it if you refrained from doing it to them to.
I'll apologize on speculation, but I can't see where I did this (?).
Tue, 2011-10-25 19:36
#68
Boom Boom
I'm eating in a pizza joint (Pizza Delight) tomorrow night in Blanc Sablon. What's the proper percentage to tip now? Thanks.
Tue, 2011-10-25 19:47
#69
Pizza Delight? They should tip you. Generally around 15% is usually fair.
Tue, 2011-10-25 23:12
#70
Boom Boom
SJ: that made me laugh! 
Thu, 2011-10-27 15:08
#71
Boom Boom
SJ was right. Lousy food, overpriced, and the online translaction payment asked me - repeatedly - if I wanted to add on a tip. I said no, but nevertheless gave the waitperson what change I had in my pocket. What a crappy restaurant. Overcooked pasta noodles, terrible tomatoe sauce, oily wings. The only good part of the meal were the meatballs, which were excellent.
Thu, 2011-10-27 18:16
#72
Just out of curiousity, if it were up to you, what would you say would be a reasonable but fair wage?
That's looking at things from the wrong end. The restaurant can pay whatever it wants. The only restriction is what it can collect for the "product" it's selling at the front end. If it can't meet enough to pay whatever you may regard as a "fair" wage it either goes out of business or pays less. The workers get to decide whether they want to work there or be unemployed.
Sat, 2011-10-29 13:33
#73
I always tip cash, that way the server gets the money right away, and the dag gum govment don't git their cut.
What is irking me about tipping (with me, 10 to 15%) is that some retaurant management takes a cut of the tip. I understand and don't mind that the tip is pooled so the cook and others get a deserved slice. But management?
To me, that's theft. Thier "tip" is in the right hand collumn of the menu.
And management knows it too. Otherwise, they'd have no problem putting a sign on the door that proclaims that they take a portion of the servers tips for themselves.
Butt wipes.
Sat, 2011-10-29 13:49
#74
Boom Boom
I guess the best solution is to enforce a decent wage and outlaw tipping. However, I'm aware some will disagree, because tipping can be quite lucrative for some (which may be why management is trying to get a cut of the action).
Tue, 2011-11-01 22:42
#75
I can think of a few times when I received terrible service and either left no tip or an insultingly small one. But in fairness I have very low standards so you would have to do a stunningly bad job to rate such drastic treatment. Normally it's better than 10% and I usually round up the total including tip to a nice round number (25, 30) and/or leave any loonies, toonies and other change I might have with me.
I'd be pretty happy if we could somehow evolve past the concept. Seems a bit outdated.
Tue, 2011-11-01 23:07
#76
Boom Boom
I'd be pretty happy if we could somehow evolve past the concept. Seems a bit outdated.
Agreed.
Tue, 2011-11-01 23:20
#77
Why thank you my good man. Here, buy yourself something nice (tosses him a loonie).
*editted to add:
How was your trip?
Wed, 2011-11-02 08:35
#78
Boom Boom, how would one go about outlawing tipping?
Wed, 2011-11-02 09:52
#79
RevolutionPlease
Tipping is perhaps one of the last vestiges of socialism for the minimum wage worker. If you can't afford it, that's fine but to see the discussion turn towards calling it outdated, is very un-babble-like.
I try to always tip 20%. But then again, I don't frequent franchises paying their employees minimum wage to serve me my food while racking up exorbitant profits.
Wed, 2011-11-02 09:57
#80
What is irking me about tipping (with me, 10 to 15%) is that some retaurant management takes a cut of the tip.
It's an insidious practice found at the larger corporate franchises. Most restaurant workers heavily depend on tips as part of their salary. It's here where we see the libertarian concept being played out on a smaller scale. The minimum wage represents a fair exchange for labour, better still in areas where the wage is set at the barest minimum according to the dictates of the market. In a society where the exigencies of growth alone regulates inflation, tips represent an arbitrary form of charity which are supposed to fill the gap between a hand to mouth working poor existence, and living on the sidewalk due to the absence of inflationary controls such as rent. The ownership/management class set their own rules within a legislative vacuum, according to whatever the competitive industry standard will allow for. Horning in on the action from charitable donations makes for good business sense if everyone is doing it. One must retain a competitive edge for management as well with such creativity as to avoid direct overhead costs. The first chain to raise the minimum wage for their workers would lose market share as investors bail to the competitors who wouldn't contemplate such nonsense.
Wed, 2011-11-02 10:40
#81
Boom Boom
Boom Boom, how would one go about outlawing tipping?
I guess the first step is to look at a true socialist economy and see how the issue is dealt there. My guess is that workers must receive a fair and decent living wage before tipping can be discouraged - but I've read (quite a while ago!) that some persons do quite well with tips, so I don't know.
Wed, 2011-11-02 10:46
#82
RevolutionPlease
When you read that some do quite well with tips, they're comparing them to a minimum wage worker not your average folk. Folks that rely on tips? I do not envy them. (h/t to Sven)
Wed, 2011-11-02 10:58
#83
Boom Boom
Tipping is perhaps one of the last vestiges of socialism for the minimum wage worker. If you can't afford it, that's fine but to see the discussion turn towards calling it outdated, is very un-babble-like. I try to always tip 20%. But then again, I don't frequent franchises paying their employees minimum wage to serve me my food while racking up exorbitant profits.
I think this is the first time I've seen tipping described as 'socialism'. I think it's more like the owner paying too low a wage and forcing the worker to rely on tipping in order to make ends meet - in other words, it's exploitation.
Wed, 2011-11-02 11:08
#84
RevolutionPlease
Boom Boom, haven't we created this ourselves? Our lust for cheap, served food? Cheap everything? No concern where it comes from. No concern how. Obviously the majority never votes for these folk, so I take it as my concern that we've done this to them. Like I said, if you can't afford it, don't tip but when someone serves you and you earn a decent wage, it's on you to compensate them for the inequalities of our world if you claim to be a progresssive.
Wed, 2011-11-02 11:13
#85
Boom Boom
Sounds like you gave up long ago. Forcing workers to rely on tips from a public that might not be inclined to be generous in difficult economic times - that's exploiting them. We should be asking progressive parties - the NDP? - to campaign for living wages, and if that means increasing minimum wage, then so be it.
Wed, 2011-11-02 12:31
#86
When you read that some do quite well with tips, they're comparing them to a minimum wage worker not your average folk. Folks that rely on tips? I do not envy them. (h/t to Sven)
Hmmm no. It depends on the venue. Some make far far more than they would in any other comparable job. At a 'good' place it is not unusual to make 6 figures. Its just that most places are not that. There is also a tipping heirarchy. Like a diner you only tip 10% but a steakhouse 15% for example.
Regardless of the place, however, the worse part is the illegal dishwashers, line cooks and busboys who get paid worse than shit, no benefits and are exploited out the wazoo.
Its worse in the US of course, there the minimum wage for waiters can be as little as a 1.50 an hour. In Canada, at least, the minimum wage is more generous than that so people relying on tips do better than anyone else on minimum wage. Not that ours is wonderful but a damn site better than theirs. Forget campaigns for te tippers, by and large they dont want eform. Concentrate on the bac end exploited. They need the help far more desperately
Wed, 2011-11-02 12:40
#87
RevolutionPlease
I agree with Boom Boom and Bacchus on their points made but just want to restate that in the current conditions, I also support tipping generously as they do make it back to the busboy and dishwasher. I did both. Yes, we should support a living wage for all of them. That's why I tip. Because we don't vote that way.
Just didn't like the conversation veering to we shouldn't tip.
Wed, 2011-11-02 12:46
#88
Agreed and I always tip(unless u really really suck on purpose)
Wed, 2011-11-02 12:52
#89
Boom Boom
Well, I've always tipped, because I completely agree with RevolutionPlease that this is the current situation we are in. I'd love to see everyone earn at the very least a good living wage, but until that time comes - if ever - I guess we're stuck with tipping when we eat out at restaurants. 
As for Pizza Delight, I don't know what to think. Ten years or more ago in Blanc Sablon it was a good place to eat, and the only sit down restaurant besides the hospital in that community. The quality in the meantime has gone down - their meals are crap - and it's overpriced. If you pay by card, you are prompted by machine if you want to leave a tip. I think that's bullshit - because that machine feeds that info back to whoever is doing accounting, and it's no longer an anonymous tip to the food server, but probably goes straight to management. That's why I gave a tip directly to the server, not to the machine. If I pay the tip by card into the machine, what guarantee do I have that the tip ever gets to the server???
Wed, 2011-11-02 13:00
#90
Northern Shoveler
Its worse in the US of course, there the minimum wage for waiters can be as little as a 1.50 an hour. In Canada, at least, the minimum wage is more generous than that so people relying on tips do better than anyone else on minimum wage. Not that ours is wonderful but a damn site better than theirs.
That is no longer the case n BC. We now have a lower minimum wage for liquor service staff than others. This is what a Liberal government looks like in BC.
BC has maintained a two-tiered wage system, with a special rate introduced for liquor servers. Servers working in "liquor primary" restaurants and bars only got a $0.50 raise in May, with another $0.25 added today. They are earning $8.75 an hour now, and their minimum wage will be capped at $9 an hour next May. The provincial government justifies the two-tiered system by saying liquor servers are able to supplement their incomes with tips.
But Jim Sinclair with the BC Federation of Labour says the servers' exemption from the hike is unfair to those who work at restaurants where liquor isn't the primary business base.
"There are a number of employees at IHOP saying, 'Why am I getting paid this? I serve bacon and eggs, I don't serve martinis,'" he says.
Sinclair explains there are many jobs like taxi drivers and hairdressers that involve tips that aren't exempt from the wage increase.
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/294430--wage-increase-is-unfa...
Wed, 2011-11-02 14:36
#91
That sucks though it is better than the minimum wage overall in some provinces
Wed, 2011-11-02 15:03
#92
Northern Shoveler
That sucks though it is better than the minimum wage overall in some provinces
No the Yukon at 9 bucks is the low and the servers are at $8.75 BC at $9.50 is now a dime better than Alberta but behind the rest of the provinces. The living wage in the Lower Mainland because of what it costs to keep a roof over ones head is almost $18 an hour. The living wage in various regions of provinces should be the minimum wage IMO. If a job is worth doing then the person doing it must be able to survive and thrive. Otherwise there is something the matter with the business model.
Wed, 2011-11-02 15:29
#93
Wow Im impressed that the minimums are so high everywhere. For some reason I thought them lower in some places. Not good enough but still far better than I thought they would be
Quebec the worst for servers apparently at 8.35
Wed, 2011-11-02 21:35
#94
Northern Shoveler
Quebec the worst for servers apparently at 8.35
Just another "progressive" Liberal government.
Wed, 2011-11-02 21:43
#95
LOL Well they are responsible for the latest increaes, at the end of last year.
Not enough though, should at least match ontarios
Thu, 2013-01-31 17:42
#96
Catchfire
Waitress Who Posted No-Tip Receipt From “Pastor” Customer Fired From Job
“I had been well-liked and respected,” she explains. “My sales were high, my managers had no problems with me, and I was even hoping to move up to management sometime this year.
“When I posted this, I didn’t represent Applebee’s in a bad light,” she continues. “In fact, I didn’t represent them at all. I did my best to protect the identity of all parties involved. I didn’t break any specific guidelines in the company handbook — I checked.
“But because this person got embarrassed that their selfishness was made public, Applebee’s has made it clear that they would rather lose a dedicated employee than lose an angry customer. That’s a policy I can’t understand.”
For someone who makes their living off of tips, it seems like the customer’s note was salt in the wound for Chelsea.
“We make $3.50 an hour. Most of my paychecks are less than pocket change because I have to pay taxes on the tips I make,” she explains. “After sharing my tips with hosts, bussers, and bartenders, I make less than $9/hr on average, before taxes.
In her job, Chelsea says she skipped bathroom breaks when things got busy, went hungry when she had to work several tables at a time, would work until 1:30 a.m. and then come back in at 10:30 a.m.
“I am expected to portray a canned personality that has been found to be least offensive to the greatest amount of people,” she tells Consumerist. “I come home exhausted, sore, burnt, dirty, and blistered on a good day. And after all that, I can be fired for ‘embarrassing’ someone who directly insults their server on religious grounds.”
Thu, 2013-01-31 18:12
#97
Well, she wasn't insulted "on religious grounds" but she was certainly insulted.
What's more disgusting is that Applebee's builds in a suggested 18% tip on their bill, which is basically admitting, "we don't pay our servers enough so we would like you, dear customer, to make up the difference." That should be illegal. Maybe I don't get out enough, but I would also be offended if a restaurant factored in a tip for themselves like that.
If they want more money for their food and service, they can change their menu prices so that all costs to the consumer are up front.
Thu, 2013-01-31 18:28
#98
I find this story less than shocking. Put all that righteous indignation into organizing a union. Otherwise, you never know what bullshit reason you'll be fired for next.
Thu, 2013-01-31 18:47
#99
Catchfire
Yes. Unionizing is the first step toward abolishing restaurants.
Thu, 2013-01-31 20:47
#100
Boo hoo hoo. Pastor Dumbass is "brokenhearted", because her reputation is "ruined". She's the real victim here! She got a minimum wage server fired for simply showing people what she herself wrote on the receipt, but she's the victim!
Applebee's is getting it good on Twitter for taking the side of that asshole over their own server. I'd alter the first line of that article to read, "Hell hath no fury like netizens defending the scorned!"
What really pisses me off about it is that the Pastor admits that her note on the receipt was a "lapse in my character and judgement" but then still tried to get the entire serving staff that evening fired! I'm sure Jesus is just so proud of her.
Thu, 2013-01-31 20:52
#101
Well, it's Applebee's.
20% for servers, and if you can help it, leave it on the table, so hopefully management won't scrape off a chunk when they process it through your debit card.