Operation 2015: Where can the NDP grow and win?!

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Tue, 2011-12-06 02:02

Debater

Malcolm wrote:

Right. So far right lunatics call him a socialist and that's supposed to convince me?

Can you actually deny anything I said in that post Debater?

No, you can't, because every single word of it was an indisputable fact.

He declared martial law in peace time and is the only Prime Minister to do so.

His original draft of the Charter asserted the rights of capital and the rights of property.

He actually used the land protection legislation in Saskatchewan and Prince Edward Island as examples of the sort of legislation that would be banned had his original Charter gone through unaltered.

These are facts, Debater - however much they disturb the fantasies you have about this odious hack.

Actually, you're incorrect on them Malcolm, and they are distortions. Most Canadian historians don't see it that way and don't agree with you. Incidentally, Trudeau just ranked in the top 5 Best Prime Ministers survey of Canadian historians and ranks #1 among the Canadian public.

He didn't impose martial law just for the fun of it - he was ASKED to do so by the Premier of Quebec and the Mayor of Montreal, because there was murder of political officials and acts of terrorism and kidnapping occurring. You know? That's why emergency powers exist.

It was many of the Premiers who wanted capital rights in the Charter, not Trudeau. And in the end they didn't end up in there, so what's your point? You do realize btw, that many people, particularly the Conservatives are in favour of having property rights, yes? You make it sound like it's some bizarre notion outside the political mainstream.

Incidentally, as Roy Romanow described in a book about Trudeau a few years ago, Trudeau described himself as a 'socialist' in the last conversation he had with Romanow before his death.

You obviously have an intense dislike of Trudeau which prevents you from looking at his tenure objectively, and that's your right to do so, but don't expect all Canadians to agree with you.

Trudeau decriminalized abortion, homosexuality, passed the Official Languages Act and gave us the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which is an internationally respected document that countries like South Africa have used as a guide in developing their own new constitutions.

I know you feel strongly about your arguments, but they don't stand up to scrutiny.

Tue, 2011-12-06 02:06

#103

Howard

Moustache November...just saying

Tue, 2011-12-06 02:19

#104

Threads

Ippurigakko wrote:

Edmonton East (2011) reminded me of Edmonton-Strathcona in 2006

Peter Goldring resgined just recently, so i guess next by election would be NDP, Ray Martin or someone will be electing in next year and 2015?

Actually, it appears that all Goldring has done (so far, I will admit) is resign from the Conservative caucus, not from the House of Commons. So no byelection yet. And I think that, for the moment, Ray Martin will probably be concerned with winning Edmonton Glenora (this is the right riding, yes?) for the provincial section.

Tue, 2011-12-06 02:35

#105

ottawaobserver

Debater wrote:

adma wrote:

I'm not sure if Winnipeg South Centre needs geographic alignment so much as a political alignment away from the Liberals--though at least unlike Wascana, they're no longer incumbent there...

I'm hoping Winnipeg South Centre will come back to the Liberals. Aren't you? The Liberals are the only party that can beat the Cons there. It was one of the longest-running Liberal seats in Western Canada until the orange crush split the vote and caused the seat to go to the Conservatives.

Hopefully the Liberals who voted NDP in 2011 were just voting NDP once because of their love of Jack and will come behind the Liberals again in order to defeat the Conservatives.

Pure BS. The NDP holds all but one of the provincial seats there. And the Conservative who was elected had been a Liberal until mere weeks before the election started.

Tue, 2011-12-06 02:38

#106

Debater

ottawaobserver wrote:

Debater wrote:

adma wrote:

I'm not sure if Winnipeg South Centre needs geographic alignment so much as a political alignment away from the Liberals--though at least unlike Wascana, they're no longer incumbent there...

I'm hoping Winnipeg South Centre will come back to the Liberals. Aren't you? The Liberals are the only party that can beat the Cons there. It was one of the longest-running Liberal seats in Western Canada until the orange crush split the vote and caused the seat to go to the Conservatives.

Hopefully the Liberals who voted NDP in 2011 were just voting NDP once because of their love of Jack and will come behind the Liberals again in order to defeat the Conservatives.

Pure BS. The NDP holds all but one of the provincial seats there. And the Conservative who was elected had been a Liberal until mere weeks before the election started.

The NDP always holds more provincial seats in Manitoba than the Liberals. What is the significance of that? We are talking about the federal seat. How many times has the NDP held Winnipeg South Centre? How many years have the Liberals held it throughout its history?

Tue, 2011-12-06 02:47

#107

Malcolm

Debater wrote:

they don't stand up to scrutiny.

I suppose nothing can stand up to scrutiny if you make shit up in response. How like a Liberal.

First, you have repeated the oft told lie about October 1970. At the point when Trudeau imposed martial law, there had been two kidnappings. LaPorte was still alive. Sure, the little fascist had the support of Drapeau and Bourassa. So what? The fact of the matter is that in response to two kidnappings, he suspended the Constitutional rights of all Canadians. No progressive that right wing hack Trudeau.

And again, while he had the support of some other right wing hacks, Trudeau inserted the rights of caital in his draft Charter of his own accord.

BUt I guess it is so important for Libeals to maintain the myth of Trudeu the progressive that no lie can be left unuttered.

Tue, 2011-12-06 02:49

#108

Debater

Why did so many NDPers vote for Trudeau?

Tue, 2011-12-06 03:20

#109

Malcolm

Why do so many people fall for Ponzi schemes? You can fool all of the people some of the time.

Tue, 2011-12-06 03:20

#110

ottawaobserver

Why don't you answer Malcolm's historical points?

Tue, 2011-12-06 03:57

#111

Debater

They've already been answered, OO.

If you or Malcolm would like more clarification, why not ask the Canadian historians who rank Trudeau as one of the best Prime Ministers, or the Canadians who do the same?

Btw, if Trudeau was so right-wing, how come he established a friendship with Fidel Castro? Castro even came to Trudeau's funeral.

Tue, 2011-12-06 08:09

#112

adma

Debater wrote:

adma wrote:

I'm not sure if Winnipeg South Centre needs geographic alignment so much as a political alignment away from the Liberals--though at least unlike Wascana, they're no longer incumbent there...

I'm hoping Winnipeg South Centre will come back to the Liberals. Aren't you? The Liberals are the only party that can beat the Cons there. It was one of the longest-running Liberal seats in Western Canada until the orange crush split the vote and caused the seat to go to the Conservatives.

Hopefully the Liberals who voted NDP in 2011 were just voting NDP once because of their love of Jack and will come behind the Liberals again in order to defeat the Conservatives.

Well, I'll agree with this much: in light of history and all, it's a natural top Liberal takeback target. However, it's also a case where the absence of a Liberal incumbent (for once) gives the NDP a potentially competitive opening. I'm not saying they *will*; just saying that it looks a lot more plausible now, depending on what happens to the Grits at large, of course.

And of course, redistribution'll also make a difference, whether it makes WSC more or less hospitable for the left, etc.

And to pitch to the Debater tent re "incumbency matters": Winnipeg North wouldn't be Liberal had Judy WL decided to stick around federally. (Though drawing from that experience, perhaps WSC would only really be NDP-competitive if they ran a "star", perhaps an MPP making a federal jump, etc)

Tue, 2011-12-06 08:14

#113

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Debater. A socialist doesn't use wage and price controls as an excuse to suppress wages and do nothing about prices. I was there in the 80s and was affected by this.

Debater, the Bank of Canada followed a policy of excessively high interest rates to fight inflation when there was no need to do so, to protect the value of the assets of the wealthy. A socialist doesn't do that.

Debater, a socialist wouldn't have imposed the War Measures Act. All civil rights were suspened that day. No Haebus Corpus, no right to protection against aribtrary arrest, no protection from arrest due to being quilty by association. You make light of that, or you ignore that. That was a major failing to impose such an unnecessarily draconinan measure. I was around then, and I know what it meant. A truly great leader wouldn't have resorted to dictatorial measures at a time of crisis. And that was what they were, dictatorial measures. Measures taken against a small, very small, very, very small miniority of the ENTIRE citizenry.

I don't care what "some historians" say. "Some economists" say Regan was right, so what? You are basically saying that because some academics wrote books, or were polled, we have to accept THEIR judgement on history. That is called revisionism. Debate is about the competition of ideas. Your arguments always come down to well we have always been this, or some people think this. How is that mode of thinking in any way democratic or genuine?

I don't know why you don't get how much your words insult people here. You are certainly within your right to make them, and no one would dispute that, including myself, although I say that reluctantly I might admit speaking only for myself. I have been instructed to lay off the personal attacks, so I will comply with that direction out of respect for this community. But really, you simply can't think you can come on here and insult people, tell them they have no idea about what they are speaking, dispute that they ever read a book or a newspaper article, and then expect them not to get upset?

I guess we need to have these "discussions" on these boards, but at the very least, I wish you would try to be a little more truly respectful. Your words and comments say otherwise, and it is tough to read.

Let "the debate" continue.

Tue, 2011-12-06 08:17

#114

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Adma:

I think the NDP beat themselves in Winnipeg North twice. I was active in both campaigns. The Liberals didn't win it. If the NDP runs a good campaign next time around, Lamoureux will be looking for another job. And that by the way is true for the NDP as a whole. As I have said on this board many times and continue to say now, this is the NDP's to lose, not the Lib's to win. Really, the Lib's are irrelevant when it comes to the acutal outcome.

Tue, 2011-12-06 08:49

#115

MegB

Closing for length.

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