Dear Leader? Dead Leader. Kim Jong-il dead at 69
Junior?!?!!?
Are you suggesting this is a case of dynastic succession rather than the inexorable, immutable laws of history hurling forth the proper figure for the job?
Imperialist!
Sectarian!
Yeah it's been on Korean satellite TV for over three hours now. I posted it here but it ended up some place else outside of international news. Mods if you find it you can lock it or whatever.
I guess it's time for junior to step up to the plate.
It's a Commarchy? 
I think we need some threads making fun of Vaclav Havel and Christopher Hitchens for dying. You know, it just gets those teenage boys all hormoned up!
Do you have a monocle?
I just disc★vered that thr★ugh a very bizarre interpretati★n ★f the line of successi★n, I am apparently the new leader of N★rth K★rea. You will all submit.
This message appr★ved by ★fficial State cens★r.
I think we need some threads making fun of Vaclav Havel and Christopher Hitchens for dying. You know, it just gets those teenage boys all hormoned up!
to quote a quote from the discussion on Mr. Hitchens
But that is completely inapplicable to the death of a public person, especially one who is political. When someone dies who is a public figure by virtue of their political acts — like Ronald Reagan — discussions of them upon death will be inherently politicized. How they are remembered is not strictly a matter of the sensitivities of their loved ones, but has substantial impact on the culture which discusses their lives. To allow significant political figures to be heralded with purely one-sided requiems — enforced by misguided (even if well-intentioned) notions of private etiquette that bar discussions of their bad acts — is not a matter of politeness; it’s deceitful and propagandistic. To exploit the sentiments of sympathy produced by death to enshrine a political figure as Great and Noble is to sanction, or at best minimize, their sins. Misapplying private death etiquette to public figures creates false history and glorifies the ignoble....
It'd be neat to bring in new clothing styles to make up for decades of drab Communist suits.
They're not drab. They're what the smart-set wears when foraging for roots or packed into a stadium for a jolly game of synchronized placard raising.
I think we need some threads making fun of Vaclav Havel and Christopher Hitchens for dying. You know, it just gets those teenage boys all hormoned up!
Nobody is making fun of him for dying. I'm sorry your taking his passing so hard...
I think we need some threads making fun of Vaclav Havel and Christopher Hitchens for dying. You know, it just gets those teenage boys all hormoned up!
On that note, first Hitchens, and now God! Who could have seen this coming?
(and surely he can't object to being referred to one last time by some of his honorific titles, the Eternal Sun, the Guardian Deity of the Planet, Great Man who Descended from Heaven, and the Great Sun of Life)
Perhaps not making fun - just testing out those titles for accuracy. But I see no reason to mourn, and I don't feel great respect.
We are after all, talking about number 37 on Forbes' list (2010) of the most powerful people on earth, and the commander of the fourth largest army and its nuclear arsenal.
You can form your own opinions on how well he took care of the people under his benevolent guidance. I remember being struck some years ago by a story about people captured along the border. THe soldiers didn't bother to handcuff them; they just punched holes in their hands and strung them together with wire.
As someone who is against capital punishment, I find rejoicing in the death of anyone distatsteful.I
I hate Harper more than any other political figure because it effects me directly. But should he die, I would not jump onboard some kind of celebratory band wagon.
I too oppose capital punishment. He died of natural causes and was most likely responsible for many others dying from not so natural causes. I don't expect my sleep will be affected either way from his passing. His family may mourn him but I'm not so inclined.
I just hope that nobody anywhere else ever sees the DPRK as a model for any sort of a socialist society. Socialism is supposed to be about liberation on as many levels as possible...not rule through paranoia. Keeping a ruling party in power for decades, in and of itself, isn't really all that much of an achievement.
The Kims would have created a far more stable society had they focused on humane socialist principles, rather than imposing obedience before all else.
I don't approve of the way the U.S. treated the DPRK throughout its history, but it's not as though Juche Thought was ever really an effective response to that treatment. Especially since(unless we've all got the place dramatically wrong)the capacity for critical thinking has been totally wiped out there, at a time when the DPRK is in dire need of it.
I just disc★vered that thr★ugh a very bizarre interpretati★n ★f the line of successi★n, I am apparently the new leader of N★rth K★rea. You will all submit.
This message appr★ved by ★fficial State cens★r.
I don't believe it for a second BB; you're not crazy enough to rule NK.
Speaking of Chris Hitchens, he wrote an article for Slate on his trip to NK:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/02/a...
Here are the two most shattering facts about North Korea. First, when viewed by satellite photography at night, it is an area of unrelieved darkness. Barely a scintilla of light is visible even in the capital city. (See this famous photograph.) Second, a North Korean is on averagesix inches shorter than a South Korean. You may care to imagine how much surplus value has been wrung out of such a slave, and for how long, in order to feed and sustain the militarized crime family that completely owns both the country and its people.
Like everything else Chris wrote, it makes for vivid reading.
But race arrogance and nationalist hysteria are powerful cements for the most odious systems, as Europeans and Americans have good reason to remember. Even in South Korea there are those who feel the Kim Jong-il regime, under which they themselves could not live for a single day, to be somehow more "authentically" Korean.
It's a Commarchy?
Or a trinity.
I too oppose capital punishment. He died of natural causes and was most likely responsible for many others dying from not so natural causes. I don't expect my sleep will be affected either way from his passing. His family may mourn him but I'm not so inclined.
By cheerleading for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, in how many deaths by unnatural causes was Christopher Hitchens complicit?
The adolescents in this thread believe that the two choices facing everyone are either to dance on Kim's grave, or to support his horrendous regime as a model for the world's people. These are the same mentalities who cheered when Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi were murdered by imperial invading forces. To express distaste at the adolescent ghoulish antics risks being tagged as a supporter of their regimes as well.
It's important to resist that kind of political blackmail, bullying, and peer pressure. It's the kind of dehumanization which whips up weak minds and hearts in preparation for war. After all, anyone living under such non-human regimes must be thirsting to be liberated by our much more civilized leaders. If we can make a buck off their cadavers, well, that wasn't our intent, but what the fuck, why not, let's go "trade" with Libya, shall we?
That's why this disgusting little thread should be closed, and a new one opened (if you like) dealing with an assessment of the Kim dynasty and the regime they rule.
It'd be neat to bring in new clothing styles to make up for decades of drab Communist suits.
You'll have to wait for more of their leaders to die before that happens. If only we could accelerate the process... Yay! Those oppressed slaves will surely thank us for some lululemon outfits!
Perhaps not making fun - just testing out those titles for accuracy. But I see no reason to mourn, and I don't feel great respect.
So, either you mourn and feel great respect, or you jump up and down and urinate on his grave, and make some Cold War comments on "Communism" in general - right? Those are the alternatives here.
Meanwhile, Nycole Turmel celebrated the murder of Gaddafi as a "new chapter" for the Libyan people (not a comment about his murderers). And on the front page of the NDP website, you can still see a video of her hailing the "brave soldiers" who fought in Korea (how timely, eh?) and Afghanistan. If she drops dead and I make jokes about her slavish adulation of Canadian imperialism, that would be in fine taste, very mature, wouldn't it?
Let's open threads to make fun of chiefs of police, RCMP commissioners, cabinet ministers, when they drop dead or are killed on the job. After all, many of us have "no reason to mourn, and ... don't feel great respect", right?
As someone who is against capital punishment, I find rejoicing in the death of anyone distatsteful.I
I hate Harper more than any other political figure because it effects me directly. But should he die, I would not jump onboard some kind of celebratory band wagon.
Party pooper. Everyone's having a good time, and you come along with a cold shower. Whassa matter, didn't get a party hat when you came in? Have a few drinks! Ding dong, the wicked witch is dead!!!
I was thinking more along the lines of Scotch plaid. Tartans.
I think we need some threads making fun of Vaclav Havel and Christopher Hitchens for dying. You know, it just gets those teenage boys all hormoned up!
If someone wants to make jokes about Hitchens dying, I'm up for it. I'm sure he would have been equally uncharitable when someone he didn't like kicked.
But I can't be of much help here, since I'm not good at making up those kinda jokes on the fly. I dunno. Something combining smokes, booze, and leftist political schisms might work. "It took Hitchens a life of smoking and boozing to accomplish what took Stalin five seconds with an ice-pick". I dunno, like I say, that's on the fly.
As for Havel, I'd be of even less help. I don't know that he's actually responible for a lot of deaths, or even cheerleading other peoples' deaths, but if he was, have at it kids.
It's disheartening to see people getting hung up between imperialism and megalomania.
As for Havel, I'd be of even less help. I don't know that he's actually responible for a lot of deaths, or even cheerleading other peoples' deaths, but if he was, have at it kids.
Well geez, VOTD, let me [url=http://www.meaus.com/havel-iraq.htm]help you out here[/url]:
Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein is a menace to his neighbors and pre-emptive military action may be warranted against him, Czech President Vaclav Havel said in an interview ahead of a visit to Washington beginning today."Saddam Hussein's regime poses a major threat to many nations and to his own people," Mr. Havel said. "The right thing for Bush is not to go in alone. There should be an international intervention."
September 2002. Yeah, that's right. Vaclav Havel, cheerleader for George W. Bush and for crimes against humanity, was complicit in the murder of some 200,000 Iraqis.
Yay! He's dead!! Let's party!!!
September 2002. Yeah, that's right. Vaclav Havel, cheerleader for George W. Bush and for crimes against humanity, was complicit in the murder of some 200,000 Iraqis.
Yay! He's dead!! Let's party!!!
Thanks for that. But I'm still having trouble coming up with jokes for Havel. Be that as it may, does my willingness to laugh at these deaths(as exemplified by my Hitchens joke) give me license to laugh at KJI's death?
Havel, Hitchens and Kim Jong-Il arrive at the Pearly Gates together. St. Peter immediately requests a sylum in hell.
Sorry Unionist, I don't feel guilt-tripped at all.
In the first place, this sort of talk goes unnoticed here when we are talking about cops, capitalists, shopkeepers and other pigs (which I am not questioning).
Why is this self-proclaimed deity, who had molten metal poured on people because they wouldn't renounce their own system of belief in favour of him, any different?
Sorry, he was no champion of the downtrodden, and no challenger of power.
One percent? For the last 30 years he has been one of the .000001%, and a particulrly destructive member at that.
And if you read what I wrote about Hitchens you'd see I wasn't entirely uncritical of him either.
Havel, Hitchens and Kim Jong-Il arrive at the Pearly Gates together. St. Peter immediately requests a sylum in hell.
Hmm. That's promising. But let's try to add a bit of "reverse expectations"(by mainstream opinion standards) in.
KJI arrives at the Pearly Gates. St. Peter takes one look at him and says "That's it, I'm asking for asylum in hell".
KJI replies: "Good idea. Tell Hitchens I'm sorry I missed his funeral".
Thanks for that. But I'm still having trouble coming up with jokes for Havel. Be that as it may, does my willingness to laugh at these deaths(as exemplified by my Hitchens joke) give me license to laugh at KJI's death?
Not quite.
You have to make jokes about God striking down Hitchens for his anti-theism.
Then, a few one-liners about how God murdered Jack Layton for daring to humiliate His second begotten son (Iggy).
Then you have to start a thread speculating that Jack conspired with Harper to split the vote and give Stephen his much-lusted-for majority, in exchange for which Jack got what he always wanted - a State Funeral - and the other part of the deal being to 1) appoint Nycole Turmel as interim leader so that no one would ever hear a peep from the NDP while Steve dismantles Canada, and 2) when the dust settles, announce a new holiday (St. Jack's Day).
We could also use a few zesty zingers about Mother Teresa's ugly out-of-style duds - perhaps accuse her of being a closet Communist? You know, tasteful shit like that.
Then you have to start a thread speculating that Jack conspired with Harper to split the vote and give Stephen his much-lusted-for majority, in exchange for which Jack got what he always wanted - a State Funeral.
A quote for the archives.
Of course, it might just sound sick if lifted from the context. Not pushing my noodle on that hypothetical.
You have to make jokes about God striking down Hitchens for his anti-theism.
Your post here doesn't quite make sense to me. I would think that the MORE offensive jokes would be the ones making light of the manner in which Hitchens died(ie. of a painful cancer), rather than making light of his political ideology as it might relate to his death. But you seem to think that the ideologically oriented jokes are the most objectionable.
But by all means, anyone can have a go at Hitchens' atheism if they'd like. Back to KJI, prior to you registering your first complaint in this thread, the ony joke that had been made was spoofing the rules for succession in the DPRK. Hardly the stuff of a "Truly Tasteless Jokes" collection.
I think making fun of his stroke would probably be out of order. But pointing out his delusions of grandeur don't quite live up to reality, or his revolution chic fashion sense (after all, his dad knew how to tie a tie)?
Fair game in my books. He wasn't a poor or vulnerable man despite the masquerade.
I agree that post 4 is just dumb, inept reaching.
But U. comes back in spectacular form..
I was only half listening to the radio.
But I thought I heard #3 being referred to as The Great Succesor.
When I was in Cuba in 1970, there was a fair bit of DPRK paens to Juche floating around- at least where internationals would get them. And one of the pleasures of reading them was how every single time that Kim Il Sung was mentioned, and it was at least once a page, it required this boiler plate paragraph.
'Great Leader' was just the severely shortened honorific for discussion with foreigners. In comparison to the full honorific, more compressed than an acronym.
You have to make jokes about God striking down Hitchens for his anti-theism.
Your post here doesn't quite make sense to me. I would think that the MORE offensive jokes would be the ones making light of the manner in which Hitchens died(ie. of a painful cancer), rather than making light of his political ideology as it might relate to his death. But you seem to think that the ideologically oriented jokes are the most objectionable.
But by all means, anyone can have a go at Hitchens' atheism if they'd like. Back to KJI, prior to you registering your first complaint in this thread, the ony joke that had been made was spoofing the rules for succession in the DPRK. Hardly the stuff of a "Truly Tasteless Jokes" collection.
Did you read the disgusting juvenile thread title? Do you really think I'm objecting to criticism of Kim's so-called ideology, of which I'm blissfully unaware? Do you recall what I said about the bullying that takes place: "either join in the jollity, or you're on his side"?
Nah, I guess not.
I agree that post 4 is just dumb, inept reaching.
But U. comes back in spectacular form..
But your point and Unionist's aren't the same. Unionist didn't object because he thought "Commarchy" was a dumb portmanteau. He objected because he thought the joke was offensive.
Bascially, to agree with Unionist, you have to agree that jokes ridiculing the succession process in the DPRK are out of bounds.
I made jokes about Kim Jong-Il when he was alive; I am hardly going to refrain now that he is dead.
Of greater concern is what the effect of his passing is going to be on the Korean peninsula and in the general vicinity.
Is there any hope for the quality of life of the average NPRKer to improve?
I hear you, Caissa. I wonder if the son that is in line for the succession even wants the job? And whether he's going to be different from his father.
Did you read the disgusting juvenile thread title?
Well, I THOUGHT I had read it. But going back now, I see that I misread it, and didn't notice that the second "dear" was in fact a "dead".
So, I guess, yeah, that's in questionable taste. But you know, when Bobby Fischer, the well-known anti-semite and chess nerd kicked a few years back, I posted an announcement on another forum entitled "Bobby Fischer now less relevant than ever". The joke being that the only way for a fringe-politics chess nerd to become more immaterial to the world would be to die. Which Fischer did.
I apologize to any chess fans who were grieviously wounded by my shot at their idol.
Hey VOD, I think I follow.
But I thought U's original point was dumb, so to me it's irrelevant.
Maybe I can only do it out of context- but I like that line of his in itself. Period.
As to the citizens of DPRK.... ther has always been a lot of fear that as bad as Kim was, things can only get worse from the instability following his death that has been imminent for a few years now. Perhaps the period of time waiting for the inevitable has dragged on long enough, that the major realignments in the autocracy have more or less settled.
Or not.
I havent heard any speculation. But for even those with the kind of sources the CIA can pull on, guessing which way on that is probably just a crap shoot.
The goddess of chess forgives you, VOD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ca%C3%AFssa
Maybe I can only do it out of context- but I like that line of his in itself. Period.
Oh, if you mean the conspiarcy theory around Layton's death, yeah, I thought that was well-done also.
But you know, as you seemed to realize, by taking it out context and saying it's funny, you ARE in fact giving thumbs-up to a joke about Layton's death. Because as originally written by Unionist, it wasn't meant to be funny, but rather an example of inappropriate humour. So the only value it has out-of-context is its humour value, which would play to the egocentrictiy of the polticians involved.
But yeah, I had a chuckle.
The other disgusting aspect of this thread is the readiness of truly progressive folks to line up, by sheer reflex, with cold-war red-baiting anti-communism.
The DPRK is a sad caricature of socialism. But instead of discussing that from a political viewpoint, we have posts #2, #3, and #8, among others, which could have been penned by Sara Palin. That's the ugly nature of the service rendered by those who depict themselves as "socialists" or "communists" (PRC, DPRK, etc.) to those who want to bury forever the ideals and dreams of socialism (Harper, Obama, etc.).
When some Chinese leader dies, will we sing "another one bites the dust" and joke about how he's off to his "socialist paradise" where he can continue to cash in his stock dividends? Will we joke about how the people can now stop singing hymns to Marx and listen to Justin Bieber for a change?
This thread, and the sentiments expressed in it, have nothing to do with solidarity with the people of North Korea - no more than media coverage of Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi had to do with sympathy for those people. It's disgusting.
But then, I was among the few that found Nycole Turmel's statement on Gaddafi's death to be obscene - as I did Harper's "state funeral" for Jack. Maybe I just wasn't brought up right.
The goddess of chess forgives you, VOD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ca%C3%AFssa
THAT'S the goddess of chess?! Holy cow, I'm not laughing at nerdy chess guys anymore.
Unionist, the history of the twentieth century is strewn with individuals who have betrayed socialism while claiming to uphold it. Are Iraqui's better off in the post-Saddam era? I think the answer is probably "no". Libyan's in the post-Gaddaffi era? The jury is still out but the answer might be "no". We yet to have any idea of the DPRK post- Kim Jong-Il.
The DPRK is not a 'perversion of socialism'.
The only thing it has to do even tangentialy with socialism, is the cold war tragi-comic history of who is opposed to the state.
Unionist, the history of the twentieth century is strewn with individuals who have betrayed socialism while claiming to uphold it.
That's right, Caissa - and when we expose and denounce them and try to learn to do differently, we don't call them "Communist monarchs" or ridicule them for calling their enemies "imperialists!" or make fun of the "Communist" clothes that people wore under their rule. Because that's when we cross over the line and join with our enemies.
The DPRK is a sad caricature of socialism. But instead of discussing that from a political viewpoint, we have posts #2, #3, and #8, among others, which could have been penned by Sara Palin.
Post #2 said that "junior would step up to the plate". Meaning that the Kim Jong Eun would likely inherit his father's job.Post #3 suggested that dynastic succession is not really in keeping with the traditions of people who think in terms of "immutable laws of history" Post #8 ridiculed the fashion sense of certain Communist regimes.
So, from where I'm sitting: There's nothing offensive about saying that the son will inherit the position of the father. That's what's expected to happen. Maybe it won't, who knows, but it's well within the bounds of legitimate political discussion.
I suppose you could read red-baiting into the jibe at "immutable laws of history". But really, If every leftist who made fun of other leftists' political terminology was on the CIA payroll, well, that would pretty much bust the CIA's budget.
As for Boom Boom's fashion criticism, that's a bit more shallow, I suppose. But I've gone on record as saying that while early bolshevik art, with its constructivist and dadaist influences, is quite interesting, the "boy meets tractor" aesthetic of socialist realism kinda sucks dog shit. Maybe Sarah Palin should be hiring me as a speechwriter, with neo-fascist demagoguery like that.
Wow, awful formatting. The bold quote is Unionist, everything afterwards is me.