Still nearly 3 weeks until the second debate.
I dont know if debate is the right word. More than a bit of overstatement.
But they are the only concrete mileposts we have.
I agreed we needed to give this a long time.
But its a long time.
Just saying.
NDP Leadership 69
Mon, 2012-01-09 20:16
#1
NDP Leadership 69
Mon, 2012-01-09 20:40
#2
What about the Toronto appetizer two weeks from now? Hope that they will stream it on line via rabble tv.
In the summer of 69!
Mon, 2012-01-09 21:30
#3
Both the BC provincial and federal NDP are against the Enbridge Northern Gateway pipeline - right?
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/22704/1/mulcair+has+p.g.+connection
He says this visit is about listening to what the people identify as their concerns "I met with some representatives of the Steelworkers who are still very concerned about the export of raw logs, something that we banned in Quebec for example to make sure we add the value there. It is a recurring problem in Canada whether it's fish that's being flash frozen and sent to China for processing, raw logs that are being sent without adding any jobs or value here or Keystone XL which exports raw bitumen which has the jobs created in the United States instead of having them created here." That export of bitumen brought to mind the "other"pipeline project which will see its environmental assessment hearings start tomorrow. He says the Enbridge Northern Gateway project is "an incredible mistake. The danger posed to the extremely fragile eco-systems on the coast of British Columbia dictates against the installation of that pipeline." He points to the historic spill of the Exxon Valdez off the coast of Alaska which continues to have environmental impact today. "The eco-systems are fragile. In addition, a lot of the first Nations have indicated very clearly it is not on as far as they're concerned and the Supreme Court of Canada has on several occasions repeated the First Nations have to be consulted in a very real way in this type of development. I'm quite convinced this one (pipeline) will never see the light of day and that's a good thing." So what does Mulcair bring to the leadership race that sets him apart from the other 7 candidates? In a word, experience. He was Quebec's Minister of Sustainable Development, Environment and Parks while a member of the Quebec National Assembly in the Liberal Government of Jean Charest. After being elected as a New Democrat M.P. in Quebec he was named Deputy Party Leader (alongside Libby Davies) and last May was named the Opposition House Leader.
Mon, 2012-01-09 21:48
#4
Mulcair is getting around.
http://www.nanaimobulletin.com/news/136889833.html
He said Canadians need politicians who aren't influenced by insiders.
"The only interest I will be answerable to is to the public," said Mulcair. "The only people I will be beholden to is you."
Lorraine Erickson, who travelled from Victoria to volunteer at the event, said Mulcair is a politician who is doing something for Canadians.
"He is focused, he is thoughtful and he has a strong background trying to expand the NDP vision to include practical common sense goals for the future," said Erickson.
Colin Pacholuk, who attended the event, said Mulcair was one of the front runners for him when the leadership race began.
"He was honest and straightforward," said Pacholuk. "If he didn't know the answer he didn't try to make up an answer for it."
Mon, 2012-01-09 21:52
#5
writer
Could you point me to a candidate that isn't getting around, and having nice things said when visiting?
Mon, 2012-01-09 23:05
#6
Could you point me to a candidate that isn't getting around, and having nice things said when visiting?
Lol. The candidates are doing a good job. I read that Ashton is in Alberta now. Leave no stone unturned!
Mon, 2012-01-09 23:09
#7
Man, lots of snarky comments in the "Submit Your Questions" article on CBC. Seems like Sun News viewers have raided that article.
Tue, 2012-01-10 00:00
#8
Malcolm
So as a fun intellectual exercise, here is what I see as the major positive and the major negative for each candidate.
Niki Ashton
- Positive - Roots in the party's historic heartland with a plan to win it back
- Negative - Age
Nathan Cullen
- Positive - The most populist (and most Jack-like) candidate
- Negative - His cooperation scheme is a huge drawback for anyone who actually understands politics
Paul Dewar
- Positive - Reports of a strong organization
- Negative - The worst French of the remaining candidates
Thomas Mulcair
- Positive - Seen as the candidate best able to consolidate the Quebec breakthrough
- Negative - Appears t have little understanding (and little interest in understanding) the party culture beyond Quebec
Peggy Nash
- Positive - Broadly perceived as embodying the party's traditional values
- Negative - Broadly perceived as emobdying the party's traditional culture
Romeo Saganash
- Positive - A compelling narrative and track record as an accomplished Cree leader
- Negative - Does not present himself in a manner consistent with the norms of the dominant culture
Martin Singh
- Positive - Working hard on networks among the Sikh community
- Negative - Policy one-note
Brian Topp
- Positive - Strong support among the party's traditional establishments
- Negative - No persnal track record in retail politics, exacerbated by weak performances in debates so far
Tue, 2012-01-10 00:34
#9
Malcolm, you undermined your exercise by:
- Positive - talking up an aspect of your candidate's campaign no-one has heard word one about (a plan to take back the heartland?), unless you mean that two-word empty vessel of "new politics"
- Negative - talking down the demonstrated strength of the candidate you clearly fear the most ("reports of a strong organization"), and re-emphasizing a weakness that if resolved would leave you without a reason for opposing him
That was a fun exercise, too! ;-)
Tue, 2012-01-10 00:39
#10
What's with the "so far"? Isn't everybody so far? LOL
Tue, 2012-01-10 00:41
#11
So as a fun intellectual exercise, here is what I see as the major positive and the major negative for each candidate.
Niki Ashton
- Positive - Roots in the party's historic heartland with a plan to win it back
- Negative - Age
Nathan Cullen
- Positive - The most populist (and most Jack-like) candidate
- Negative - His cooperation scheme is a huge drawback for anyone who actually understands politics
Paul Dewar
- Positive - Reports of a strong organization
- Negative - The worst French of the remaining candidates
Thomas Mulcair
- Positive - Seen as the candidate best able to consolidate the Quebec breakthrough
- Negative - Appears t have little understanding (and little interest in understanding) the party culture beyond Quebec
Peggy Nash
- Positive - Broadly perceived as embodying the party's traditional values
- Negative - Broadly perceived as emobdying the party's traditional culture
Romeo Saganash
- Positive - A compelling narrative and track record as an accomplished Cree leader
- Negative - Does not present himself in a manner consistent with the norms of the dominant culture
Martin Singh
- Positive - Working hard on networks among the Sikh community
- Negative - Policy one-note
Brian Topp
- Positive - Strong support among the party's traditional establishments
- Negative - No persnal track record in retail politics, exacerbated by weak performances in debates so far
I think I would agree with quite a lot of that. In any case, I don't think its bad to have an opinion.
I personally didn't detect any pronounced bias in your post.
Tue, 2012-01-10 00:41
#12
Tue, 2012-01-10 00:44
#13
What's with the "so far"? Isn't everybody so far? LOL
Well, except you could argue it will be hard for Niki to age substantially during the course of this campaign (although its always possible years from now she will tell us it was during this leadership campaign when she discovered her first grey hair).
Tue, 2012-01-10 01:02
#14
What's with the "so far"? Isn't everybody so far? LOL
Well, except you could argue it will be hard for Niki to age substantially during the course of this campaign (although its always possible years from now she will tell us it was during this leadership campaign when she discovered her first grey hair).
Actually, this is a great line. I wouldn't be surprised to see her team pick that one up for a good laughline in her convention speech. It's very charming. Good one!
Tue, 2012-01-10 01:03
#15
Well said.
Harper is staking his reputation on this pipleline going ahead. If it is halted it could be the beginning of his political demise.
http://www.vancouverobserver.com/politics/2012/01/09/ndp-mp-nathan-culle...
To Cullen, MP for the northern BC district of Skeena-Bulkley Valley, these “hypocritical” attacks from the Conservative government are a return to McCarthy-era political tactics.“It’s a witch hunt,” said Cullen, noting the potential impacts on free speech and democracy if any group opposing federal policy can expect this sort of attack.
He laughed dismissively of the group's claims to be “non-partisan”.
Although Ethical Oil claims to be “non-partisan” and said they don’t accept funding from any government agency, several factors raise suspicions about its ties to the Harper government. For instance, the online forum EthicalOil.org was developed by former Conservative staffer Alykhan Velshi – now director of planning for the Prime Minister’s Office – and current spokespersonKathryn Marshall is married to Harper’s former manager of strategic planning.
Cullen said the Prime Minister has made his position quite clear with regard to the tar sands and Northern Gateway. And with a majority government and a powerful industry lobby, it seems now only public opinion stands in Harper’s way.
“He has surrounded himself with ‘yes men’,” said Cullen. “But they aren’t going to win this thing.”
Tue, 2012-01-10 01:19
#16
Well, except you could argue it will be hard for Niki to age substantially during the course of this campaign (although its always possible years from now she will tell us it was during this leadership campaign when she discovered her first grey hair).
Actually, this is a great line. I wouldn't be surprised to see her team pick that one up for a good laughline in her convention speech. It's very charming. Good one!
Love it!!!
Tue, 2012-01-10 08:32
#17
Maysie
Romeo Saganash
- Positive - A compelling narrative and track record as an accomplished Cree leader
- Negative - Does not present himself in a manner consistent with the norms of the dominant culture
Wow.
Just wow.
While I get that this is your opinion, Malcolm, the racist bits are rather obvious. My advice is to tuck them in better next time.
Tue, 2012-01-10 08:34
#18
Looks like Topp released his full democratic reform policy today. Download here. [Jan 10 item]
Good idea on finessing Senate abolition:
"The urgency with which this matter is then pursued with the provinces ... should then depend on the conduct of Senate during the next Parliament," Topp wrote after noting the Senate would be filled with Liberals and Conservatives even if the NDP formed government. "If the Senate provokes a constitutional crisis by blocking a budget or other important legislation, Senate abolition should be pursued as an immediate and urgent priority. If the Senate returns to its traditional role and subordinates itself to the House of Commons, then the matter can be pursued more deliberately over the course of the next Parliament."
Looks like this would take care of the political weaknesses in Senate abolition.
It is a good thing to have on an agenda. But getting caught up with "how" would ruin that because its just not a top of mind issue.
This puts it on the table without making a circus of 'how do you do that?'
It also addresses a practical problem for the NDP. I've always wondered about this. But when you've so much work to get to government, its natural to say "cross this bridege when we get there". This is better: having put it out there before an election is a mandate to go ahead when in government.
And its not just the brute power of the potential stick. It would make concrete and 'valorize' the visceral reaction Canadians would have if the opposition was using the Senate to block an agenda... when that visceral reaction could be more easily defused if there were no cncrete means for acyivating it.
And its pretty clear that the NDP will only ever get to follow through on the threat if it mobilizes a concensus of support across Canada.
While bringing in PR is not so tricky- Topps proposal to bring in MMP incrementaly is also a good finesse.
Enables pressing the vision, without getting hopelessly bogged down in how-to details.
Tue, 2012-01-10 08:41
#19
Malcolm
Malcolm, you undermined your exercise by:
- Positive - talking up an aspect of your candidate's campaign no-one has heard word one about (a plan to take back the heartland?), unless you mean that two-word empty vessel of "new politics"
- Negative - talking down the demonstrated strength of the candidate you clearly fear the most ("reports of a strong organization"), and re-emphasizing a weakness that if resolved would leave you without a reason for opposing him
That was a fun exercise, too! ;-)
I'm far from the only person to have iscussed Ashton's focus on regaining the Prairie West as a major step on the path to victory.
And since I was trying find only one key positive and one key negative, what else was I supposed to say about your preferred candidate. He may have other problems, but the quality of his French is his biggest one.
As to his organization, Ive heard lots of reports on how strong it is - mostly from his supporters.
Tue, 2012-01-10 08:43
#20
Malcolm
Well, except you could argue it will be hard for Niki to age substantially during the course of this campaign (although its always possible years from now she will tell us it was during this leadership campaign when she discovered her first grey hair).
I've actually heard several New Democrats remark that this would be a better leadership race if Niki Ashton were five years older and Peggy Nash were five years younger.
Tue, 2012-01-10 09:00
#21
Malcolm
While I get that this is your opinion, Malcolm, the racist bits are rather obvious. My advice is to tuck them in better next time.
Not sure exactly what you mean.
If your accusing me of racism, you've missed the point.
He faces a challenge that is analagous to one frequently faced by female candidates. Our dominant culture's understanding and expectation of leadership is based on a series of assumptions that work relatively well when applied to white males. Ashton and Nash also face this, though our society has had some experience in adjusting those expectations for white females, so while that is still a problem for Ashton and Nash, it is not their greatest challenge.
Saganash himself was referring to more or less this problem, I think, in that famous tweet:
Learn four languages, negotiate treaties, defend rights, become an MP. Still get asked if you're a 'serious' candidate. #nativeguyproblems
I guess it would have been clearer if I'd said that his biggest negative was that the NDP is racist, but I thought that ovestated it a little.
Tue, 2012-01-10 09:02
#22
Boom Boom
Well said.
Harper is staking his reputation on this pipleline going ahead. If it is halted it could be the beginning of his political demise.
http://www.vancouverobserver.com/politics/2012/01/09/ndp-mp-nathan-culle...
Every time I click on that link I get this:
Page not found
The requested page could not be found.
Could you post the headline of the article so I could google foor it? Thanks.
Tue, 2012-01-10 09:10
#23
writer
Tue, 2012-01-10 09:20
#24
Malcolm
Tue, 2012-01-10 10:09
#25
Maysie
Not sure exactly what you mean.
If your accusing me of racism, you've missed the point.
I said what you wrote was racist.
It seems I need to break it down. Okie dokie.
- Positive - A compelling narrative and track record as an accomplished Cree leader
To describe anyone's life as a "compelling narrative" is complete minimalization. To describe Saganash's life thusly is a gross and deliberate obfuscation of his direct experience with white, Canadian, Christian colonialism. Ergo, that's racist.
As for his "track record as an accomplished Cree leader" all I have to say to that is, since he is far, far more than that, is ditto.
- Negative - Does not present himself in a manner consistent with the norms of the dominant culture
"Does not present himself" has a few meanings. First, that if he just got some skin lightener he'd be just fine. As if being Cree is something he puts on, like a pair of pants. (hint, that's racist!) Or that he's somehow willfully and delibrately not trying to be like a white guy (whatever the hell that means) and that this is negative (according to you)!!!! Unbelievable!! What website am I on?
Your words at post #20 that seem to imply you're aware of, and dislike, racism and other systemic barriers, mean nothing when you make the kinds of statements as you did about Saganash. What's left, according to you, and unquestioned, is the reality of what are "our" cultural norms. Cultural norms change over time, they aren't fixed. And "our" Canadian cultural norms are.... wait for it....racist! And sexist and classist and homophobic and oppressive in a whole shitload of other ways.
And you know what? Those of us who aren't whilte middle class men know damn well that we don't fit into the norms of the dominant culture. Need I remind you that the norms of the dominant culture in a global context have fucked the planet up for the last couple of hundred years? Hm, maybe it's time to look at a different set of paradigms. Hm. Maybe.
White male hegemony is sooooo 2011. 
Tue, 2012-01-10 10:24
#26
Every time I click on that link I get this:
Page not found
The requested page could not be found.
Could you post the headline of the article so I could google foor it? Thanks.
Here's the [url=http://www.vancouverobserver.com/politics/2012/01/09/ndp-mp-nathan-culle... link[/url], Boom Boom.
Tue, 2012-01-10 11:39
#27
Looks like Topp released his full democratic reform policy today. Download here. [Jan 10 item]
"The concurrent abolition of the Senate would ensure few additional permanent costs are accrued, and no net additional Parliamentarians are created."
Did I miss Jack Layton ever saying this? I checked the March 3 Hansard, when the NDP moved a motion for an all-party committee with a one-year mandate to engage with Canadians, and make recommendations to the House, "on how best to achieve a House of Commons that more accurately reflects the votes of Canadians by combining direct election by electoral district and proportional representation."
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=5006735&L...
The NDP caucus was vocal in support of proportional representation, with statements from David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre), Libby Davies (Vancouver East), Claude Gravelle (Nickel Belt), Jean Crowder (Nanaimo-Cowichan), Jack Harris (St. John's East), Fin Donnelly (New Westminster - Coquitlam), Jim Maloway (Elmwood - Transcona), Alex Atamanenko (British Columbia Southern Interior), Peter Julian (Burnaby - New Westminster), Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway), Paul Dewar (Ottawa Centre), Yvon Godin (Acadie - Bathurst), and Linda Duncan (Edmonton Strathcona).
No one said PR would wait for Senate abolition. Almost no one linked the two questions.
Dave Christopherson said "in many ways, the proportional representation aspect of this is arguably even more important than the Senate . . ."
Jean Crowder quoted very extensively from the report of the Law Commission of Canada recommending an open-list MMP system. Nothing in that report suggests any link with possible Senate abolition.
Claude Gravelle said "Our caucus knows that the best way to get Canadians excited again about the political process in our great country is to change our system to better reflect their vote." He went on to say "I want to cite an Ipsos Reid poll between the days of January 24 and 27, 2011, indicating that 33% of Canadians want to abolish the Senate and 49% want Senate reform." (A lower priority, since 68% of Canadians support proportional representation.)
Paul Dewar hinted at linking them. "Personally, I think it is an option to have what is working in New Zealand, which is a mixed member system. Every once in a while we get to debate ideas in this place, but what if the Senate was folded into the House and was proportionally elected, so there could be people who had the time to do good committee work?" I never noticed this question at the time.
Yvon Godin did not link them in his speech, but a Conservative MP questioned him: "I still fear that if we go strictly off a party list, the problems we have experienced or complained about that exist today in the Senate, such as patronage, would exist then in the House of Commons because everyone would be coming off a list that is qualified by the party and not necessarily by the electors at the grassroots level. I would ask the hon. member to address that." Godin replied "Mr. Speaker, I have visited many countries that have proportional representation. They have mixed proportional representation. . . When people vote they ask if their vote counts or not. Many people do not want to vote today because they feel that their vote is lost. If we go to a riding and say in advance that a certain member will probably get in anyway, their vote does not go anywhere. We have to try proportional representation, and getting rid of the Senate will not cost Canadians any more because we will have more elected members in the House of Commons and they will have to answer to the people. I feel that is the way to go."
But the NDP platform for the 2011 election said:
7.3 Making your Vote Count
• We will propose electoral reform to ensure Parliament reflects the political preferences of Canadians. To this end we will propose a new, more democratic voting system that preserves the connection between MPs and their constituents, while ensuring parties are represented in Parliament in better proportion to how Canadians voted. Your vote will always count.
http://www.ndp.ca/platform/fix-ottawa
No waiting for Senate abolition.
Tue, 2012-01-10 11:59
#28
Boom Boom
Here's the [url=http://www.vancouverobserver.com/politics/2012/01/09/ndp-mp-nathan-culle... link[/url], Boom Boom.
thank you - your link works.
Tue, 2012-01-10 12:14
#29
I disagree with the contention that Mulcair has little interest in understanding the NDP culture outside Quebec. I saw him this weekend in Vancouver at an event organized by a friend of mine who is very passionate about supporting Mulcair (far more passionate than I!). There was a very strong turnout of curious people, including members of the Vision Vancouver municipal party (one city councillor and two park board reps). He did not necessarily agree with the positions of every person who asked a question (who possibly could?) but I never once got a sense that the audience felt he was out of touch. I can't speak for other provinces but he has gotten some MLA endorsements in BC - is that not an indication that he is in tune with at least some of the local NDP culture?
He's not at the top of my ballot but I'd still give him a fair shot.
Tue, 2012-01-10 13:33
#30
My ranking so far:
1.) Topp
2.) Nash
3.) Mulcair
4.) The rest, in no particular order.
So, Mulcair has moved up (in my previous ranking, I placed him last). Still, I personally need to hear a bit more than meaningless platitudes like "move the centre to the left" before I can place him above either Nash or Topp. He has spoken of cap and trade, and running a campaign on the basis of "sustainable development", which is good. Still, I need more. There only seem to be news articles on his site, rather than any statements of policy or intent directly from him. And the "move the centre to the left" idea suggests trying to soft-sell social democracy with the assumption that most people now ("the centre") are more right wing. I'm reminded of the Liberal campaigns of the past where they (the Libs) bought into the created Conservative climate of "taxes are bad", "coalitions are bad", "war is patriotic and good", "education and worldliness is bad (IE, elite)", etc. IE, them turning away from the idea of a coalition, or them trying to sell Iggy as a good Canadian who takes care of his sick mother rather than promoting Iggy as a worldly man of wisdom shows how they allowed the Cons to control the script of the campaign. Layton instead attacked the Cons' stance on the war, on the coalition, on taxes, etc, and certainly did better because of it. So, I don't buy into the idea of soft-selling social democracy. But, over the years I have been impressed whenever I heard Mulcair on the news, so he's still among my top three.
Topp and Nash have, in my opinion, been more clear on presenting what direction they wish to take in leading the party, and thus I feel they would more clearly present to the public how the NDP would be a better choice for Canada than the Cons/Libs. Topp's idea of tackling the image that some have (particularly in Ontario) of the NDP as poor financial managers head on seems good, with the concrete examples of good financial management of the Romanow and Calvert gov'ts.
Tue, 2012-01-10 13:36
#31
I'm far from the only person to have iscussed Ashton's focus on regaining the Prairie West as a major step on the path to victory.
Yes, but what specifically is her plan to do that. I've been reading, but I haven't come across anything specific. Perhaps I missed it.
And since I was trying find only one key positive and one key negative, what else was I supposed to say about your preferred candidate. He may have other problems, but the quality of his French is his biggest one.
As to his organization, Ive heard lots of reports on how strong it is - mostly from his supporters.
Even the other camps acknowledge it, Malcolm, so you're sounding a bit churlish on that one, my friend.
FYI, a release has just gone out entitled "Paul Dewar and Linda Duncan will make an important announcement" about a Thursday campaign event in Edmonton.
Tue, 2012-01-10 13:41
#32
Maysie, I feel there are a number of ways to interpret what Malcolm wrote about Saganash, and I think you might consider that there are other ways to interpret it.
He does have a compelling narrative for a life story. Overcoming adversity by consciously deciding at a young age not to let his anger define him and redirecting it to make something better for himself and others is a compelling narrative, and it's inspired a lot of people, Cree and otherwise.
Of the many things we know about Malcolm, one of the things I'm clearest on is his intolerance of racism, and a very sincere desire to work on ways that our political system can be more inclusive.
I think you're way off the mark in your criticisms, sister.
Tue, 2012-01-10 13:52
#33
Maysie
Hey OO. Sadly, the "overcoming adversity" narrative (as true as it is for many marginalized folks) is one most often used to actually reinscribe racism and other barriers.
"If Person A could succeed despite all the barriers they encounter, why can't you? Society doesn't really have to change then."
It's a classic bait and switch. The ol' bootstraps thingy.
But that's not what Malcolm said.
To break down "compelling" then. Compelling to whom? Why? And why is this the notable thing about Saganash's qualifications in running for leadership?
But you're right. I'm probably reading far too much into it compared to the time and thought that Malcolm put into it. Which of course is my point regarding what we can call "everyday" racism.
Tue, 2012-01-10 14:00
#34
Nelson Mandela overcame adversity by consciously deciding not to let his anger define him and redirecting it to make something better for himself and for others, inspiring many people in the process. It doesn't mean that the apartheid regime never happened, or that many other folks were even in a position to do what he did. However without what he did, they likely would not have ended the apartheid regime, nor done so as well as they did. It also doesn't mean racism doesn't continue in South Africa.
Tue, 2012-01-10 14:09
#35
Romeo Saganash reminds me of Ken Dryden, in that what he says and writes is sometimes a bit too ponderous and detailed for me.
Tue, 2012-01-10 14:19
#36
Malcolm
"Does not present himself" has a few meanings. First, that if he just got some skin lightener he'd be just fine. As if being Cree is something he puts on, like a pair of pants. (hint, that's racist!) Or that he's somehow willfully and delibrately not trying to be like a white guy (whatever the hell that means) and that this is negative (according to you)!!!! Unbelievable!! What website am I on?
Your words at post #20 that seem to imply you're aware of, and dislike, racism and other systemic barriers, mean nothing when you make the kinds of statements as you did about Saganash. What's left, according to you, and unquestioned, is the reality of what are "our" cultural norms. Cultural norms change over time, they aren't fixed. And "our" Canadian cultural norms are.... wait for it....racist! And sexist and classist and homophobic and oppressive in a whole shitload of other ways.
And you know what? Those of us who aren't whilte middle class men know damn well that we don't fit into the norms of the dominant culture. Need I remind you that the norms of the dominant culture in a global context have fucked the planet up for the last couple of hundred years? Hm, maybe it's time to look at a different set of paradigms. Hm. Maybe.
White male hegemony is sooooo 2011.
Gee, posts that acknowledge racism are now racist?
What bullshit.
Tue, 2012-01-10 14:27
#37
Romeo Saganash reminds me of Ken Dryden, in that what he says and writes is sometimes a bit too ponderous and detailed for me.
I think this is the cultural difference Malcolm is alluding to in his post above.
In my experience there is far more allowance made for/accpetance of "ponderous and detailed" dialogue in aboriginal politics than Western politics generally.
Tue, 2012-01-10 14:30
#38
writer
Yeah, when he referred to a government hack as a white-collar terrorist, I was like, "Whoa, that's WAAAAY too ponderous and detailed for me!"
Tue, 2012-01-10 14:39
#39
Gee, posts that acknowledge racism are now racist?
What bullshit.
Is it racist, though?
If I understand your point correctly Malcolm, you're saying that Saganash's big problem is that his communications style is not what people are used to seeing in non-aboriginal Western politics.
If that IS what you're saying, I agree.
But communications skills are part of the job as leader. Clearly Saganash has communications skills that ARE entirely up to the job in most regards (sickly debate performance aside). But if his communications style simply fails to connect, or members feel in will not connect with the public, for reasons that happen to be rooted in cultural differences, then is that ipso facto racism?
I think that's a complex question. The answer for me is that for progress to be made there has to be allowance for cultural differences and that one cannot bow to a racist segment of the electorate, but that those allowances do not obviate the question of whether a candidate can get the job done (in this case "Can he connect?").
It is a complex question for me.
Tue, 2012-01-10 14:50
#40
Malcolm
Yes, AnonymouseMouse. Despite Maysie's vile slanders, that is what I was saying. Of course, I've been accused of racism here for pointing out that not all people of mixed First Nations and European ancestry self-identify as Métis. IIRC, Maysie thought it was racist to acknowledge the term some of them prefer.
On the second part, I agree that there are a couple of levels at play. Some of it would be overt racism. Some of it would be (for lack of a better phrase) unconscious racism and some would be a sort of deferral to the racism of others (not sure it that's the best description). Once could certainly argue that such a deferral is essentially racist as well.
Tue, 2012-01-10 15:19
#41
Yeah, when he referred to a government hack as a white-collar terrorist, I was like, "Whoa, that's WAAAAY too ponderous and detailed for me!"
For my part, I was referring to things like the blurb on the front page of his website that points to the "My Vision" page:
I am running to lead the New Democratic Party of Canada, to become Leader of the Official Opposition and to become Prime Minister after the next election because I believe that, together, we can make this vision a reality.
I am asking you to share in this vision with me, to share it within the party, to share it with people from across Canada who will join our party to pursue it, and to share in the hope that it brings for all Canadians.
I like Romeo Saganash a lot, but...
Those are 84 words on the front page of his website (not some accidentally meandering off the cuff remark) about his vision without giving us any indication of what that vision is. You have to click to go to the "My Vision" page to find out what the vision is and even then there are another three paragraphs and another 149 words about his (admittedly quite interesting) perspective on the world before anything concrete about his vision for the country.
Political communications techniques develop over centuries (in every culture) based in large part on what is effective. Given what we know about how people consume information, this kind of communication style in all likelihood be very ineffective in a political campaign involving the voting public as a whole. It is in all likelihood, given Saganash's political success in the Cree community, very effective with some, many or all aboriginal groups. But it contradicts everything we know about political communications aimed at a pan-Canadian audience.
I don't know why Romeo Saganash entered this race. It may have been to win. It may have been to raise his profile. It may have been to lead by example within the Cree/aboriginal community/communities. It may have been to educate the rest of us "by example", so to speak, by exposing people to a different way that some Canadians--aboriginal Canadians--practice poltics. If so, the sort of communications style above mnay lay the groundwork for future aboriginal candiates by exposing more Canadians to this different approach in hopes they connect better with after having been exposed to it for a while. I think that was certainly the case in the last US election when the American electorate chose as its first black president a man who spoke in a style commonly associated with African Americans and made part of the zeitgeist by Martin Luther King.
In any event, in ealier posts you (writer) seemed to be asking people to wiegh in on why they thought Saganash wasn't being given more serious consideration as a candidate. I think this question of style is largely the answer.
Tue, 2012-01-10 15:28
#42
writer
Yeah, why *would* Canada want a leader who would garner international attention for breaking the back of colonialism? How *could* we possibly think that someone who wrote and lobbied for a successful and inspiring UN declaration might be able to help this country evolve in a good direction?
Maybe you're right, and we're not ready. Not my belief. I guess we'll see.
Tue, 2012-01-10 15:29
#43
Yes, AnonymouseMouse. Despite Maysie's vile slanders, that is what I was saying. Of course, I've been accused of racism here for pointing out that not all people of mixed First Nations and European ancestry self-identify as Métis. IIRC, Maysie thought it was racist to acknowledge the term some of them prefer.
On the second part, I agree that there are a couple of levels at play. Some of it would be overt racism. Some of it would be (for lack of a better phrase) unconscious racism and some would be a sort of deferral to the racism of others (not sure it that's the best description). Once could certainly argue that such a deferral is essentially racist as well.
I think "deferral to the racism of others" is a good phrase, but I think the most important level is one even deeper (more important because it affects more people).
That's people, like myself, who just say "his speaking style does not inspire me". I'm even willing to grade Saganash on a curve on that question because I know that speaking style is often rooted in cultural dynamics and it's the kind of barrier that inevitably arises whenever anyone is trying to breakthrough a cultural divide. But at the end of the day, his speaking style does not inspire me. There's nothing I can do to change that and it would be silly not to wonder "will others feel the same way?"
Tue, 2012-01-10 15:44
#44
Yeah, why *would* Canada want a leader who would garner international attention for breaking the back of colonialism? How *could* we possibly think that someone who wrote and lobbied for a successful and inspiring UN declaration might be able to help this country evolve in a good direction?
Maybe you're right, and we're not ready. Not my belief. I guess we'll see.
I don't think it's a question of whether we're "ready for it".
I certainly don't think it's about whether we're ready for an aboriginal leader or prime minister in general.
How people respond to language and communication is a product of their experience, yes, but at the end of the day if your communication style doesn't connect, it doesn't connect. An aboriginal candidate could chose to use a different coommunication style rather than take a more gradual approach by which people become more accustomed to such a style and then come to find that it does connect. But either way the question is whether the style connects.
Forecample, if we make the assumption, for the sake of argument, that Saganash's communications style would not connect with most Canadians, that doesn't meaning "they're not ready for it". That's like saying if we had a fantastic Cree leader who only spoke Cree and someone said "well, he can't be prime minister because he only speaks Cree" and someone else responded "well, we're just not ready for it". That obivously wouldn't make sense.
The point I'm making with regard to communication style is analogous. You can either coommunicated different (learn another language) or make people more accustomed to your method/manner of communication (teach them another language), but either way at the end of the day it's about how you connect.
Tue, 2012-01-10 15:55
#45
OnTheLeft
A big endorsement coming for Dewar?
Major leadership announcement and suprise guest!
Friday 8:00am until 9:00am
Joignez-vous à moi lors d'une annonce de campagne importante avec un invité surprise!Friends,
On October 2nd, I announced my candidacy for leader of Canada's NDP. Since then I have been criss-crossing our country meeting with Canadians, signing-up new NDP members, and sharing my vision for a stronger and more caring Canada.
On Friday, my campaign for leader takes an important step and I want you to be there.
What: Major leadership campaign announcement with a surprise guest
Where: Westin Hotel (Quebec Room, 4th floor), 11 Colonel By Drive, Ottawa, ON
Date: Friday, January 13th
Time: 8:15am (sharp)
Please join me for this major campaign announcement.
All the best,
Paul Dewar
https://www.facebook.com/#!/events/302856633084497/
Tue, 2012-01-10 15:57
#46
Noticed on facebook that Paul Dewar is making an announcement on Friday with a "surprise guest"...
Tue, 2012-01-10 15:57
#47
Beat me to it, OnTheLeft :)
Tue, 2012-01-10 16:00
#48
writer
Malcolm, Anonymous Mouse, have you actually watched the feature and various clips I've posted with Romeo? Because I'm seeing all sorts of theories about how he talks that don't match most of what's out there, or my personal experience.
Is all of this based on one debate, when he had bronchitis, and was arguably the best performer in one of the country's two official languages despite that?
Tue, 2012-01-10 16:06
#49
Noticed on facebook that Paul Dewar is making an announcement on Friday with a "surprise guest"...
Binyamin Netanyahu. Pass it on.
Tue, 2012-01-10 16:08
#50
You actually made me laugh out loud on that one, Unionist ;)
Tue, 2012-01-10 16:14
#51
Malcolm, Anonymous Mouse, have you actually watched the feature and various clips I've posted with Romeo? Because I'm seeing all sorts of theories about how he talks that don't match most of what's out there, or my personal experience.
Is all of this based on one debate, when he had bronchitis, and was arguably the best performer in one of the country's two official languages despite that?
I've seen Saganash in person and on video several times. My imprssion is not based on the one debate. I also know at least a dozen people who feel the same way about his communications and his message (in the sense that it is often very general).