NDP Leadership #87

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gunder

marciam wrote:

Idealistic Pragmatist wrote:

Yes, but only after all voters have had a chance to choose among all of the parties. That's a crucial difference (and how democracy works in most of the rest of the democratic world).

OK, I'll bite. I'm always confused by this argument, since Canadians _never_ have a choice among _all_ of the parties. In the last election, my ballot didn't include a Bloc candidate, and prior to 2004, plenty of ridings didn't run a Green candidate (not to mention all the other small parties).

That doesn't make sense to me.  We have to have all the choices or none? That is where Cullen's messaging gets really confused (not to say deliberately misleading). 

He's signing otherwise idealistic people up to a political party by reaffirming their cynical view the parties don't matter.  He wants to move away from the party system, but he wants party members to have more say in the outcome of the election than the electorate.  He wants to give the grassroots more say, but his messaging is by neccessity going to put small, grassroots campaigns at a huge disadvantage.  He wants to give Canadians something to vote for, but he's asking a lot of them to go back to voting against what they hate, which is why a lot of people stayed away in the past and why so many came to us in 2011,

It's just too monumental a gamble to embark on with very little guaranteed in return.  How do we run on a platform knowing that the Liberals are just going to throw the most crucial parts of it out the window and bargain us down on the other ambitious policies? At least if we form a coalition after the election, we'll know we have a mandate and what the lay of the land is.  And we'll be in a position to place certain things (like MMP proportional representation) above bargaining. I  don't see what's wrong with that approach.  

Anyway, that's the last post from me on that.

 

 

 

Stockholm

I think you mean either why he supported the gun registry or why he opposed getting rid of the gun registry...

BTW: I realize that there are still six weeks to go in this race (i.e. the length of an entire federal election campaign), but given that Mulcair is the putative frontrunner in this contest, I am surprised that the mainstream media have not done any major profiles of him. Back in 2006 when the Liberals were in the process of picking a leader of the opposition, the Globe and Mail practically had 10-page three colour inserts on the life stories of Ignatieff and Rae etc...

mtm

Back to people talking about Thomas Mulcair's personal life.  While I think there is a certain distance we afford our politicians in Canada, I haven't seen him shy away from talking about his background and his family in events.

I had the good fortune of attending a recent event where he talked about that to some degree with the members who had come.  He talked about how he comes from a Catholic family of ten, and how he would not possibly have been able to get two law degrees without the benefits of being in Quebec, where there is a focus on education and low tuition rates.

He also talked about his two sons, in their 30's.  His oldest is an officer with the Surete du Quebec, which led him to digress into a bit about why he supports the gun registry - and how it personally affects his son when he knows he's going into a house with guns.  He then talked about his younger son, who is actually the webmaster for his website.   

mtm

Sorry, yes, clearly being from Montreal Thomas is very very supportive of the gun registry.  I meant opposed the Tory bill to scrap it, lol.

Stockholm

writer wrote:

R.E. Wood, if you and others don't understand how this position destroys our chances in Quebec. Well, I've said it.

On the other hand - do you not also understand how the NDP entering into a hypothetical electoral pact with what's left of the BQ would totally destroy the NDP chances in the rest of Canada...and would also cost votes among many anglophone and allophones in Quebec? I mean why bother even running candidates outside Quebec in the next election if we did that - we might as well just have a mass immolation!

socialdemocrati...

The point is that when we get in bed with the other parties, we wake up with all kinds of diseases. Cooperating with the BQ plays barely worse in the West than cooperating with the Liberals does in other parties of the country. It sends the wrong signal and cedes control of our message to those other parties. We would (obviously) own Quebec separatism if we cooperated with the BQ. But if we cooperated with the Liberals, we'd also own centralization, austerity, and military interventionism.

Best to run and campaign alone, but leave the door open to any kind of cooperation to get specific items in our agenda passed.

wage zombie

Stockholm wrote:

A party whose one and only policy is for Quebec to separate from Canada is not a progressive  party, nor is it a conservative party. It is a party that wants to opt out of all politcal debate in Canada. Quebecers already showed what they thought of the BQ in May when the reduced it to 4 seats after Duceppe gave a histrionic speech at a PQ congress in support of another referendum on sovereignty - and that earned him a giant THUMBS DOWN from Quebecers.

So if that's their only policy I assume that they abstain from all House votes not pertaining to Quebec separation?

Saying the Bloc's only purpose for existence is to destroy Canada is like saying that the NDP's only purpose for existence is to turn Canada into a Stalinist dictatorship nightmare.

It's a smear.  Please get your head out of your ass.

CanadaApple

Idealistic Pragmatist wrote:

CanadaApple wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

I was glad then to read his Plan To Strengthen The NDP Throughout Canada (full pdf here).  I think he is showing the same foresight that Layton had shown.  He plans a full outreach to and involvement of the membership for developing the policy of the NDP before the 2013 Convention.  The policy paper also speaks against Cullen's open nomination proposal.

He also seems to show a willingness to work with other parties if needed, which I like.

Yes, but only after all voters have had a chance to choose among all of the parties. That's a crucial difference (and how democracy works in most of the rest of the democratic world).

Yes, that's what I meant.

Stockholm

Read what Daniel Paille - the rightwing business tycoon who now leads the BQ - has to say about the future direction of the party. he wants them to singularly focus on pushing for Quebec independence. 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

It's amusing to see those who would gladly make electoral pacts with the Liberal Party take a stand "in principle" against an electoral alliance with the BQ! It makes me wonder if they have any "principles" at all.

writer writer's picture

Quote:

On the other hand - do you not also understand how the NDP entering into a hypothetical electoral pact with what's left of the BQ would totally destroy the NDP chances in the rest of Canada...and would also cost votes among many anglophone and allophones in Quebec? I mean why bother even running candidates outside Quebec in the next election if we did that - we might as well just have a mass immolation!

I don't agree with Cullen's plan. Period. I feel that "stategic" obsessions have sucked a lot of passion out of progressive efforts for decades and are at root anti-democratic. I am comfortable calling out Cullen's plan as it applies to Quebec. All of these things can co-exist.

Cullen's plan is disastrous in a specific way in Quebec. And I don't believe it will work in the way he intends in the rest of Canada. I won't be baited by stupid fear-mongering into denouncing the BQ. It's not my party. As with any other party, I do not feel any need to distance myself from it. I have never embraced strategic voting in its multiple forms. I am good friends with some who have.

I do believe in democracy. I do believe people who propose ideas are in a position to defend them, especially when there appears to be a massive inconsistency in that plan which could do serious damage to a newfound relationship, as with the one between Quebec and the NDP.

This seems somewhat straightforward to me.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Hunky_Monkey wrote:
Mulcair's foreign affairs position paper... http://www.thomasmulcair.ca/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Policy-backg...

With this document Mulcair has solidified his reputation as a booster of neoliberal imperialism.

I especially laughed at his statement that the Arctic is "our only border facing possible threats to our sovereignty"!

He wants a stronger IMF and World Bank.

He wants to integrate the government's "trade, aid, military, human rights, and climate change policies".

He wants to merge CIDA into the Foreign Affairs department, so that it will become even more of a tool of foreign policy [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/activism/value-foreign-aid-work#comment-1310940]... it is now[/url].

His plans for so-called "Corporate Social Responsibility" are indistinguishable from [url=http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/ds/c...'s[/url].

He thinks pensions for retired and disabled veterans is a foreign affairs issue.

He thinks social justice comes through international trade.

Slumberjack

M. Spector wrote:
I especially laughed at his statement that the Arctic is "our only border facing possible threats to our sovereignty"!

Are those Danes at it again?  And what about St. Pierre and Miquelon?  Do you have any idea of how much contraband rum running they're engaged in?

Stockholm

The Americans have been sending ships into the northwest passage and trying to get their hands on oil deposits etc... and the Russians are an issue as well.

socialdemocrati...

M. Spector wrote:

Hunky_Monkey wrote:
Mulcair's foreign affairs position paper... http://www.thomasmulcair.ca/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Policy-backg...

With this document Mulcair has solidified his reputation as a booster of neoliberal imperialism.

You mean the imagined reputation among those with MDS - Mulcair Derangement Syndrome?

He wants "preferential trade" with countries who have better environmental and labor standards. He wants to cancel the purchase of those fighter jets. Play a neutral role in mediating a two-state solution. Fight climate change. Push the World Bank and IMF to stop looking only at economic growth and move to a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_bottom_line]triple bottom line[/url] for measuring sustainability.

Mulcair's policy looks pretty distinct from the neoliberal agenda. But that's only if you actually, you know, *read* it.

 

flight from kamakura

if you're laughing at the threat of internationalization of the northwest passage, you're out of your minds.  arctic sovereignty is the key foreign affairs issue of this generation, and its importance can't be underestimated.  i'd have had canada sign on for the invasion of iraq if the american would, in turn, have guaranteed canadian dominion over what could be a far richer source of revenue than the panama canal and alaska purchase combined.  the arctic has the potential to turn canada into the 21st century equivalent of today's petro-states.

Howard

I'm surprised by how much I like Mulcair's foreign policy paper except for a couple points:

Mulcair wrote:
  Fortify the ability of Canada’s armed forces to respond to crises and 

disasters, anywhere in the world, and strengthen Canada's role as a 

world-leader in rapid response and reconstruction effort

This sounds like the kind of loose commitment that could get the NDP and Canada in a lot of trouble. This is in contrast to Mulcair's earlier bullet point where he seemed to recognise that the responsibility of the Department of Defence is to actually defend Canada, not spend it's time on military intervention overseas. Anyways, these statements seem at conflict and I would/will ask Mulcair, which is it going to be? I hope he has a good answer and I hope the answer isn't both, because with these criteria there are probably 50-60 conflicts around the world begging for Canadian military adventurism (not to mention a gazillion plum "training" postings with "allies"). One way I might let Mulcair wiggle out of this is if he says he would only send Canadian troops overseas as "blue helmets" (UN peacekeepers) and only then when the mission is well defined, etc (the reforms, etc). Anyways, I still see this as a problem in his platform.

I also find merging CIDA and DFAIT to be a mistake. If anyone has been to a Canadian Embassy overseas they will know that of the non-consular staff there is virtually no one not working on the non-trade/economic side. So moving CIDA into DFAIT would marginalise it I fear and make it easy to almost wipe it out altogether in the next round of DFAIT budget tightening. Mulcair supporters might say but he is committed to increasing aid to 0.7% of GDP by 2022. Well...Mulcair might be committed to that, but what about the next prime minister? I wouldn't want to risk it.

As for CSR, the unions and NGOs where involved with the Fed Govt's commissions so I am not worried about that. Plus, any move forward on CSR is a good one at this point.

Mulcair talks about eliminating duplication at the UN, but what about corruption. There are rumours of some major embezzlement scandals that the US has been pressing for action on.

Another thing not mentioned in Mulcair's platform that I would like to see is a move to share the Clinton Foundation (and many others') analysis and revisit the decision to provide government-to-government bilateral aid where funnelling the aid through NGOs might be more effective.

Lastly, and unimportantly, if Mulcair pushed for permanent membership for India and Brazil he would risk seriously p.o.-ing some other countries like Japan (Germany?) who have been campaigning like bandits for a permanent security council seat.

ETA: Kudos to Mulcair for being the first candidate to put forward (half) a defence policy.

doofy

Seems like there is a Mulcair-Topp rapprochement going on... (at least in QC). Wonder what it means?

"MP Françoise Boivin said that Mr. Topp and Mr. Mulcair are the only candidates who meet her bilingualism requirements. “I’m sorry, but you can’t become perfectly bilingual during a seven-month leadership race,” the Topp supporter said"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/french-language-ndp-debate-...

“I’m behind Thomas Mulcair,” Brahmi said. “However, I’d prefer if the winner were Brian Topp instead of everyone’s second choice.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/ndp-mp-warn...

At the veary least, this suggests that the QC MPs are extremely concerned about  a  Dewar or even a Nash  victory. People who are supporting these candidates should take note.

writer writer's picture

Once again, no mention of Saganash.

At what point should outright disgust be expressed?

Stockholm

Nash's French is actually very, very good (Le Devoir called it "impeccable"). I can't help but think that these people have other issues with her and are using bilingualism as a bit of a smokescreen.

nicky

I think we should all wait till after the French language debate in Quebec City on Sunday before pronouncing on anyone's French. If Nash, Cullen and Dewar pass the scrutiny of the Quebec press, we can put this issue to rest. If not, the they cease to be serious candidates in my book.

Hunky_Monkey

Stockholm wrote:

Nash's French is actually very, very good (Le Devoir called it "impeccable"). I can't help but think that these people have other issues with her and are using bilingualism as a bit of a smokescreen.

You got all the big sources, Stock... what are you hearing? lol

Interesting to note that we've heard Mulcair is tough to get along with, etc... yet he has the same staff working with him since his MNA days. Peggy has had a few staff turnovers.

socialdemocrati...

nicky wrote:

I think we should all wait till after the French language debate in Quebec City on Sunday before pronouncing on anyone's French. If Nash, Cullen and Dewar pass the scrutiny of the Quebec press, we can put this issue to rest. If not, the they cease to be serious candidates in my book.

You deserve a standing ovation for reasonableness.

Stockholm

I am not being conspiratorial...some people may simply not think Peggy Nash would make a good leader for perfectly legitimate reasons...but its easier to just say "she isn't bilingual enough" (even if she is) than to get into a long drawn out explanation of intangible personality traits and leadership attributes.

dacckon dacckon's picture

An interesting proposal by Saganash, however I would like to see the actual, detailed numbers behind the proposal. As well a look at all the loopholes.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

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