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Who are u supporting for NDP Leader, how will u mark your ballot, and why? #3
Wed, 2012-02-08 10:43
#1
Who are u supporting for NDP Leader, how will u mark your ballot, and why? #3
Wed, 2012-02-08 11:06
#2
My apologies to North Report. You are right it: was wage zombie. When I looked back at the source comment I simply misidentified the person. Once again my sincere apologies.
North Report wrote:
Not me. I think you mean wage zombie and I hear what you are saying.
jerrym wrote:
Writer, checking babbler's "joined date" to see whether their opinions are suspect, seems like a paranoid mechanism to divide the NDP into two classes, the worthy and the unwashed. Or do prefer the good-old days when we were getting 8% in an election but those were true NDPers? In my riding, my MP in the 1970s and 1980s was Pauline Jewett, a former Trudeau Liberal, who was loved by both party members and people in the riding, as hard as that seems for you to believe. One of her greatest supporters was Yvonne Cocke, a daughter of one of the founding members of the CCF and provincial secretary of the party, who I lived next door to for 25 years and who was always trying to grow the party, rather than questioning the reasons of anyone who joined or ran for the party.
North Report, your statement that most comments come from Mulcair supporters and therefore suggest they are pushed to do so by the Mulcair campaign is alienating. I had no favourite at the beginning of the campaign. I also understand that whoever is the perceived frontrunner tends to get most of the attacks because he/she is likely the one who has to be beaten in order to win. However, many people get tired of hearing the same attacks again and again, especially when, from their perspective, they do not seem merited. It forced me towards deciding to support Mulcair earlier than I otherwise almost certainly reached a decision on who I would vote for. To understand this, simply look at Santorum's (a candidate whose values are the direct opposite of mine) 3 victories in the US tonight. By comparison with Romney, Gingrich and Paul, he has engaged in the least mudslinging, and since his policies fit within the conservative mould, he has won growing support from those tired of these attacks. One of the reasons Layton grew the party so much in the last election was that his message was so much more positive than the Cons or Liberals. Initially, my defence of Mulcair was more a response to what I perceived as an unfair attack, rather than that of a hard-core Mulcair fan.
Wed, 2012-02-08 18:37
#3
I was bored after work today, and to encourage more people to actually follow the intention of this thread I've compiled everyone's declared preferences to see how it shakes out. I erred heavily on the side of including a Rabbler wherever possible but posting vaguely in support of a candidate wasn't enough. I also had to make a number of judgment calls and no doubt made a few screw ups as well. I'll try to update/correct when posts are made in this thread. I'm not trawling through the 86 Leadership contests threads to see who has declared any preferences in there.
1st Ballot Results in just a moment.
Wed, 2012-02-08 19:12
#4
Seems Saganash is the winner, DSloth.
Wed, 2012-02-08 19:35
#5
Someone's got good eyesight lol
I wonder how representative babble is with regard to the general NDP membership? Something to keep in mind.
We on babble can be in a bubble... a babble bubble :)
Wed, 2012-02-08 19:39
#6
If we take the 2003 threads (caveat: there were fewer candidates [and babblers] then and the first ballot result was pretty lopsided) how closely did they predict the eventual winner?
ETA: The vote is still over a month away. How many people are still undecided?
Wed, 2012-02-08 19:56
#7
mark_alfred is right but it was damn close, this would be an exciting convention .
Warning: Wonk fanfiction content (not to be taken seriously).
1st Ballot -- Saganash:16 Mulcair:13 Nash:5 Cullen:5 Topp:3 Ashton:1 Dewar:1 Singh:1
wage zombie moves from Ashton to Saganash, Ryan1812 balances things out by moving to Mulcair. Outraged Singh supporter, A_J, tears up his ballot and storms out of the convention hall.
2nd Ballot -- Saganash:17 Mulcair:14 Nash:5 Cullen:5 Topp:3
Topp supporters janfromthebruce and clambake faint when they realize even a Broadbent endorsement can't get them to the third ballot. mark_alfred recovers to the cajoling cat calls of the remaining camps and after eyeing the room nervously saunters over to Nash just in time to prevent her elimination.
3rd Ballot -- Saganash:17 Mulcair:14 Nash:6 Cullen:5
The Cullen camp rends their shirts and cries out to the heavens but quickly gets over it and files into the final three choices. R.E.Wood and UWSofty are mesmerized by Mulcair's magnificent beard while marciam is taken in by the beautiful poetry of Romeo Saganash. Plunatic2 and theleftyinvestor find refuge from the hypnotic frontrunners in the Nash camp... but not for long.
4th Ballot -- Saganash:18 Mulcair:16 Nash:8
An all out brawl on the convention floor erupts as it becomes apparent just how close the final tally will be. Invective and profanity fly back and forth in French, English and Cree. The Mulcair camp makes their play dragging away theleftyinvestor, MR Tea, Gunder and mark_alfred, but the victory is short lived as Saganash is able to corral in Plunatic2, OnTheLeft and Left Turn. The lone remaining free agent momentarily considers the mischevous notion of tying the vote and throwing the convention into utter chaos, but without warning a rare carniverous giant koala bear crashes into the hall and swallows 1springgarden whole.
Final Result -- Saganash:21 Mulcair:20
Wed, 2012-02-08 20:08
#8
My preference for Mulcair seems to have gone undetected. Perhaps I have been too subtle.
Put me down as follows:
1.Mulcair
2. Cullen
3. Ashton
A distant 4th: everyone else.
Wed, 2012-02-08 20:17
#9
I am voting Mulcair for many reasons, including:
- most articulate
- thoroughly bilingual
- experienced and polished performer
- Cabinet experience
- has Prime Ministerial bearing
- has charisma
- has environmental credibility and courage
- can best hold Quebec while appealing to ROC
- can attract non-traditional progessive voters to take us from 31 % to the required 40%
- can take on Harper and Rae and, most importantly, outperform them
Wed, 2012-02-08 20:22
#10
@DSloth Good evidence of the Babble Bubble here. Amazing how out of touch the insiders might be...
Based on my experience of three previous federal leadership campaigns, it will be ultimately about the ground game and getting the votes in. Based on memberships sold and donations committed I think there are only three or four candidates that could be in the money and Saganash is not one of them. But enough of crushing dreams ...
All I want to know from each of my top four (Nash, Cullen, Mulcair and Dewar) is how they intend to improve on the base of support Jack built to gain the prime minister's office. Everything else is secondary. Absolute power is what matters most for our future and indeed for all Canadians.
Wed, 2012-02-08 20:31
#11
Here's my work with the most recent numbers for thos ewho don't like squinting: http://www.mediafire.com/?0itgj61ma8sfmo2
I'll try to update the numbers as we get to a new thread.
Wed, 2012-02-08 21:19
#12
[..] it was damn close, this would be an exciting convention .
Warning: Wonk fanfiction content (not to be taken seriously).
1st Ballot -- Saganash:16 Mulcair:13 Nash:5 Cullen:5 Topp:3 Ashton:1 Dewar:1 Singh:1
[..]
Final Result -- Saganash:21 Mulcair:20
Thanks, that was fun to read.
Thu, 2012-02-09 00:16
#13
At this point I'll order my ballot:
1. Nash - Rock solid left-wing values, strong communicator and improving throughout the campaign. I'm feeling Peggy's campaign a lot.
2. Topp - Libby endorsed him, but he needs to get his communication mojo working and inspire the membership with his grasp on policy if he is to win. Has not happened yet.
3. Mulcair - Smart, well-spoken, they say he can hold Quebec, but his not campaigning on traditional left-wing values (pro-labour, health-care, increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy) and his center-right politician wife make me fear he is a "Third Way, Blair-ite". I noticed Dominic Cardy (N.B. NDP leader) was an early Mulcair endorser, which is a bad sign to me for that. Buyer beware i.m.o.
4. Saganash - Admirable, smart, intuitive grasp on issues, good looking, but needs to improve communication to move up.
5. Cullen - Very good communicator, some good ideas, but the work-with-the-Liberals thing is a boat anchor of an idea.
6. Ashton - I admire her passion and feel for issues, but she needs to explain "New Politics" beyond a slogan.
7. Singh - I like Martin, I hope he becomes an NDP MP next election.
8. Dewar - I'm just not excited about Paul's campaign.
Thu, 2012-02-09 00:16
#14
ETA: The vote is still over a month away. How many people are still undecided?
I'm still undecided, though I think at this point I narrowed my choices down to Mulcair, Saganash and Topp, though not in that order. I haven't altogether ruled out the other candidates, so this could change. If I had a gun to my head and had to pick one right now, I guess I'd go with Topp.
Thu, 2012-02-09 00:28
#15
Heh, you almost got me right. My leanings are to go Cullen first ballot, then Nash, then Mulcair. I think Ashton is great, but I've decided that if any non-frontrunner deserves my first-ballot boost it's Cullen.
Thu, 2012-02-09 00:29
#16
3. Mulcair - Smart, well-spoken, they say he can hold Quebec, but his not campaigning on traditional left-wing values (pro-labour, health-care, increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy) and his center-right politician wife make me fear he is a "Third Way, Blair-ite". I noticed Dominic Cardy (N.B. NDP leader) was an early Mulcair endorser, which is a bad sign to me for that. Buyer beware i.m.o.
His centre-right politician wife makes you fearful?
I'm just going to bite my tongue on that one or I may come off as just rude.
Why doesn't Topp's involvement in the Saskatchewan NDP government of Roy Romanow, a Third Way politician, give you pause? If the other candidates have their history and record examined, let's not forget Topp in Saskatchewan... maybe why he has such little support in Regina. And you do know that Topp was a member of Dominic Cardy's NDProgress?
I'm actually shaking my head right now.
Thu, 2012-02-09 00:58
#17
His centre-right politician wife makes you fearful? I'm just going to bite my tongue on that one or I may come off as just rude. Why doesn't Topp's involvement in the Saskatchewan NDP government of Roy Romanow, a Third Way politician, give you pause?
I think one difference is that Topp is saying he'll raise income on those earning most in order to pay for the country's needs, whereas Mulcair has said that he would govern like Doer and Calvert.
Now, when Mulcair says this I think he is meaning that he would be responsible. But what some of us hear is "too cautious to act".
The Mulcair campaign could consider highlighting his remarks about Bin Laden, as an example of refusing to follow the script.
If the other candidates have their history and record examined, let's not forget Topp in Saskatchewan... maybe why he has such little support in Regina. And you do know that Topp was a member of Dominic Cardy's NDProgress? I'm actually shaking my head right now.
I'm interested in reading more about NDProgress, if you have more to write.
Thu, 2012-02-09 01:15
#18
Heh, you almost got me right. My leanings are to go Cullen first ballot, then Nash, then Mulcair. I think Ashton is great, but I've decided that if any non-frontrunner deserves my first-ballot boost it's Cullen.
Yeah if you're squinting at the picture I accidentily had you down twice because of an earlier post, but I caught it while I was running the ballot simulation, wage zombie is the lone first round Ashton vote.
Thu, 2012-02-09 08:47
#19
I've said this before: babble is a representative discussion. I doubt there is a better one.
But it isnot anywhere near even an approximation of where NDP members are at. It could be more or less the opposite of that.
Those two are not at all mutually exclusive. A discussion is representative when it brings everything out- as long as you dont look at the 'volume'/quantity of what is said as indicative.
My skimming thorugh a couple threads picked this out:
Jean Chretien was difficult to understand in English, and I've read he was difficult to understand in French as well - and he led his party to three majorities. I know Saganash was having difficulty in the English debates, but he was interviewed by Evan Solomon on P&P and he came across flawlessly in English. And I've read that Saganash speaks perfect French and Cree.
This confirms my suspicion that Romeos problem is that he has never been under so much pressure while speaking English. And I'm speaking of the time constraints, not the venue that would seem to be the pressure.
I'm confident he'll get it. But I also realize that he has to show that confidence in English during the debates- members arent going to give him a blank checque for expected improvement.
Thu, 2012-02-09 08:50
#20
Question for those who are following all this more closely than I am:
Topp has promised to take away a little bit of the income of the very rich.
Has anyone promised to take away a bit of their power?
Thu, 2012-02-09 15:59
#21
If the other candidates have their history and record examined, let's not forget Topp in Saskatchewan... maybe why he has such little support in Regina. And you do know that Topp was a member of Dominic Cardy's NDProgress? I'm actually shaking my head right now.
I'm interested in reading more about NDProgress, if you have more to write.
I'll fill in on NDProgress. But I missed this- was there more context to that point about NDProgress?
Thu, 2012-02-09 16:32
#22
I finally signed up to go to the convention. I should have done this sooner, since there was a discount for those who registered early. Ah well.
Apparently there's been such an interest in the convention that the NDP is going to change the venue to the Metro Toronto Convention Centre.
Anyway, perhaps I'll see some of you there.
Thu, 2012-02-09 17:08
#23
[quote=mark_alfred]
I finally signed up to go to the convention. I should have done this sooner, since there was a discount for those who registered early. Ah well.
Apparently there's been such an interest in the convention that the NDP is going to change the venue to the Metro Toronto Convention Centre.
Anyway, perhaps I'll see some of you there.
[/quote]
Thu, 2012-02-09 17:12
#24
Really!!!
I think this is a good thing. The old venue had absolutely nothing around it at all, and it's not really super handy for TTC. There's more to do around the Convention Centre, closer to hotels, and walkable from the subway as well as handier to the GO trains.
Looking forward to seeing lots of babblers there.
Thu, 2012-02-09 18:03
#25
I think one difference is that Topp is saying he'll raise income on those earning most in order to pay for the country's needs, whereas Mulcair has said that he would govern like Doer and Calvert.
So does Obama. How left does that make him? :)
Curious... does anyone recall what election the NDP platform abandoned "tax the rich"? Did Topp have a hand in that?
ETA: One interesting thing that Mulcair said in the Halifax debate, which wasn't picked up on here, was that in Quebec, they pay higher taxes than most in the country but they don't mind since it pays for the kind of society they have. It will be interesting to see his tax reform proposals.
Thu, 2012-02-09 18:23
#26
At this point, my preferences are:
1) Cullen
2) Mulcair
3) Topp
4) Nash
I like some of the other candidates, but just don't see any of them as being leadership material. I also have some reservations about both Topp and Nash.
Thu, 2012-02-09 18:31
#27
Just when I was about to say Romeo was moving up my list. I hope whoever the leader is takes his vision to heart.
Thu, 2012-02-09 18:43
#28
While we point out the faults and liabilites we see in other candidates, I know regardless what candidate wins, I'll support them. I hope that's the case for everyone here.
Thu, 2012-02-09 20:27
#29
So with new declarations and elimination of Saganash, let's see what we get instead...
First ballot
Mulcair (16): lil.Tommy, Anonymouse, Boom Boom, Charles, Pogo, RevolutionPlease, jjuares, jerrym, samuelolivier, flight from kamakura, JoshD, Steve_Shutt, DSloth, pcml, Hunky_Monkey, nicky
Nash (7): Lord Palmerston, Mr.Tea, Rebecca West, OnTheLeft, gunder, 1springgarden, Left Turn
Topp (6): oldgoat, KenS, mark_alfred, clambake, janfromthebruce, CanadaApple
Cullen (6): R.E.Wood, Polunatic2, theleftyinvestor, marciam, UWSofty, Algomafalcon
Ashton (3): NorthReport, wage zombie, Ken Burch
Singh (1): A_J
Dewar (1): Ryan1812
Both Singh and Dewar drop out.
Second ballot
Mulcair (17): lil.Tommy, Anonymouse, Boom Boom, Charles, Pogo, RevolutionPlease, jjuares, jerrym, samuelolivier, flight from kamakura, JoshD, Steve_Shutt, DSloth, pcml, Hunky_Monkey, nicky, Ryan1812
Nash (7): Lord Palmerston, Mr.Tea, Rebecca West, OnTheLeft, gunder, 1springgarden, Left Turn
Topp (6): oldgoat, KenS, mark_alfred, clambake, janfromthebruce, CanadaApple
Cullen (6): R.E.Wood, Polunatic2, theleftyinvestor, marciam, UWSofty, Algomafalcon
Ashton (3): NorthReport, wage zombie, Ken Burch
Ashton drops out.
Third ballot
Mulcair (18): lil.Tommy, Anonymouse, Boom Boom, Charles, Pogo, RevolutionPlease, jjuares, jerrym, samuelolivier, flight from kamakura, JoshD, Steve_Shutt, DSloth, pcml, Hunky_Monkey, nicky, Ryan1812, NorthReport
Nash (8): Lord Palmerston, Mr.Tea, Rebecca West, OnTheLeft, gunder, 1springgarden, Left Turn, Ken Burch
Topp (7): oldgoat, KenS, mark_alfred, clambake, janfromthebruce, CanadaApple, wage zombie
Cullen (6): R.E.Wood, Polunatic2, theleftyinvestor, marciam, UWSofty, Algomafalcon
Cullen drops out.
Fourth ballot
Mulcair (21): lil.Tommy, Anonymouse, Boom Boom, Charles, Pogo, RevolutionPlease, jjuares, jerrym, samuelolivier, flight from kamakura, JoshD, Steve_Shutt, DSloth, pcml, Hunky_Monkey, nicky, Ryan1812, NorthReport, R.E.Wood, UWSofty, Algomafalcon
Nash (10): Lord Palmerston, Mr.Tea, Rebecca West, OnTheLeft, gunder, 1springgarden, Left Turn, Ken Burch, Polunatic2, theleftyinvestor
Topp (8): oldgoat, KenS, mark_alfred, clambake, janfromthebruce, CanadaApple, wage zombie, marciam
Mulcair has more than 50%. He wins the leadership.
Thu, 2012-02-09 20:41
#30
So with new declarations and elimination of Saganash, let's see what we get instead...
First ballot
Mulcair (16): lil.Tommy, Anonymouse, Boom Boom, Charles, Pogo, RevolutionPlease, jjuares, jerrym, samuelolivier, flight from kamakura, JoshD, Steve_Shutt, DSloth, pcml, Hunky_Monkey, nicky
Nash (7): Lord Palmerston, Mr.Tea, Rebecca West, OnTheLeft, gunder, 1springgarden, Left Turn
Topp (6): oldgoat, KenS, mark_alfred, clambake, janfromthebruce, CanadaApple
Cullen (6): R.E.Wood, Polunatic2, theleftyinvestor, marciam, UWSofty, Algomafalcon
Ashton (3): NorthReport, wage zombie, Ken Burch
Singh (1): A_J
Dewar (1): Ryan1812
Both Singh and Dewar drop out.
Second ballot
Mulcair (17): lil.Tommy, Anonymouse, Boom Boom, Charles, Pogo, RevolutionPlease, jjuares, jerrym, samuelolivier, flight from kamakura, JoshD, Steve_Shutt, DSloth, pcml, Hunky_Monkey, nicky, Ryan1812
Nash (7): Lord Palmerston, Mr.Tea, Rebecca West, OnTheLeft, gunder, 1springgarden, Left Turn
Topp (6): oldgoat, KenS, mark_alfred, clambake, janfromthebruce, CanadaApple
Cullen (6): R.E.Wood, Polunatic2, theleftyinvestor, marciam, UWSofty, Algomafalcon
Ashton (3): NorthReport, wage zombie, Ken Burch
Ashton drops out.
Third ballot
Mulcair (18): lil.Tommy, Anonymouse, Boom Boom, Charles, Pogo, RevolutionPlease, jjuares, jerrym, samuelolivier, flight from kamakura, JoshD, Steve_Shutt, DSloth, pcml, Hunky_Monkey, nicky, Ryan1812, NorthReport
Nash (8): Lord Palmerston, Mr.Tea, Rebecca West, OnTheLeft, gunder, 1springgarden, Left Turn, Ken Burch
Topp (7): oldgoat, KenS, mark_alfred, clambake, janfromthebruce, CanadaApple, wage zombie
Cullen (6): R.E.Wood, Polunatic2, theleftyinvestor, marciam, UWSofty, Algomafalcon
Cullen drops out.
Fourth ballot
Mulcair (21): lil.Tommy, Anonymouse, Boom Boom, Charles, Pogo, RevolutionPlease, jjuares, jerrym, samuelolivier, flight from kamakura, JoshD, Steve_Shutt, DSloth, pcml, Hunky_Monkey, nicky, Ryan1812, NorthReport, R.E.Wood, UWSofty, Algomafalcon
Nash (10): Lord Palmerston, Mr.Tea, Rebecca West, OnTheLeft, gunder, 1springgarden, Left Turn, Ken Burch, Polunatic2, theleftyinvestor
Topp (8): oldgoat, KenS, mark_alfred, clambake, janfromthebruce, CanadaApple, wage zombie, marciam
Mulcair has more than 50%. He wins the leadership.
Cullen is the kingmaker.
Thu, 2012-02-09 22:01
#31
Speaking realistically, if the order of the first ballot comes out as such, I might walk my next vote over to Nash before Cullen even drops out - to give her more strength to face up to Mulcair's votes. I would be happy to see either of them win but I'd want to give Nash a fighting chance!
Thu, 2012-02-09 22:25
#32
I think this four ballot babble primary actually makes a pretty good model for how I might expect things to go.
If Mulcair wins then I think having both Topp and Mulcair on the final ballot will be good.
I expect Cullen will endorse Mulcair. And I think most of his ranked ballot supporters will have Mulcair ranked next. It makes sense--at this point one of the biggest knocks against Mulcair has been the perception of centrism. This shouldn't bother Cullen's supporters much, since their support isn't negatively affected by his joint nomination plan.
Thu, 2012-02-09 22:44
#33
So does Obama. How left does that make him? :)I think one difference is that Topp is saying he'll raise income on those earning most in order to pay for the country's needs, whereas Mulcair has said that he would govern like Doer and Calvert.
Since you asked, I'd put Obama in the leftist 20% of currently elected politicians in his country. Which is pretty much where I'd put Mulcair here. I'd love to hear whether or not you agree.
Based on the clear policy commitments he has made, I would put Topp in the leftist 10% of currently elected politicians in Canada...if he had a seat.
If the other candidates have their history and record examined, let's not forget Topp in Saskatchewan... maybe why he has such little support in Regina. And you do know that Topp was a member of Dominic Cardy's NDProgress? I'm actually shaking my head right now.
I'm interested in reading more about NDProgress, if you have more to write.
I'll fill in on NDProgress. But I missed this- was there more context to that point about NDProgress?
Basically there's just what Hunky Monkey provided here...that Topp was part of a group headed by Dominic Cardy, and that Topp's membership in that group should lead us to question his branding of himself as a leftist/progressive candidate. I was hoping Hunky Honkey would go on to make a case here...as my own knowledge on NDProgress is lacking. I thought the big focus of NDProgress was to separate the federal and provincial parties--but I don't really know.
I don't know how to explain Hunky_Monkey's head shaking, as what he has presented is certainly quite light on details.
Thu, 2012-02-09 23:16
#34
I'll be voting for Nathan Cullen because I saw him give, flat out, the finest speech I've ever heard by a politician.
He's the one.
Thu, 2012-02-09 23:32
#35
Boom Boom
With Saganash out, I don't really care anymore.
Thu, 2012-02-09 23:53
#36
radiorahim
Was sad to hear that Romeo Saganash was stepping out of the race. I guess that would now put me in the Peggy Nash camp with her strong connections to the labour and social movements.
Fundamentally though I'm in the "ABM" (Anyone But Mulcair) camp.
Thu, 2012-02-09 23:54
#37
With Saganash out, I don't really care anymore.
I'm pretty much there myself at the moment. Romeo was the only one whose potential excited me. Voting will be just a duty now. And I'll probably be more likely to wait until the day of convention to make my choice.
Thu, 2012-02-09 23:58
#38
I don't know how to explain Hunky_Monkey's head shaking, as what he has presented is certainly quite light on details.
Oh, sorry... was suffering from a concussion :)
My main issue is that Mulcair is tagged with a lot of things for being a Quebec Liberal... even having to support certain aspects of an election platform he wasn't comfortable with. But as a team player, he went along... until he had enough. So he gets tagged with being a right winger... wants to move the party to the centre (main attack line by Topp and used by his phone bank)... and Topp even attacked Tom on being part of the Quebec Liberals. And everytime Topp gets up and says "we don't need to become Liberals to win"... he's taking a swipe at Mulcair being a part of the only federalist party in Quebec.
Tom has been a loyal New Democrat and team player since elected in 2007. He was recruited by Jack and came to the party when it was in single digits in Quebec. We had only ever won a single seat in Quebec... in a by-election and that was pretty much on the reputation of the candidate. He supports a national child care program... he thinks that a national pharmacare program isn't just the right thing to do, but the smart thing to do economically... his guiding principal in foreign affairs is peace... his support for the environment is beyond reproach... and the list goes on. He's a Jack Layton New Democrat.
If there are concerns, let me be addressed. But it strikes me as hypocritical that people attack Mulcair but have no issue with Topp's history. He was part of a very moderate NDP government that those who support him would probably take issue with. He was known as a Third Way supporter in Saskatchewan and has the support of Roy Romanow, an avowed Third Way Blairite. But Mulcair gets attacked because Dominic Cardy is an endorser? And Mulcair gets attacked for saying he wants to use Manitoba and Saskatchewan as examples for management of public dollars but when Topp brings up Saskatchewan... silence.
GIVE ME A BREAK!
I don't have issue with any of Brian's history. But there seems to be a double standard in this race. What he's campaigning on now doesn't jive with his history (even under the Layton NDP to be fair) but no questions are asked. Why?
As for NDProgress, it was basically about changing the structure of the party but was led by many moderate New Democrats. I guess at the time it was seen as the opposite of the NPI.
There's my rant for the evening :)
Fri, 2012-02-10 02:12
#39
With Saganash out, my vote goes to either Ashton or Nash. I might actually support both, and just make a decision on how to rank them.
Fri, 2012-02-10 02:56
#40
I don't have issue with any of Brian's history. But there seems to be a double standard in this race. What he's campaigning on now doesn't jive with his history (even under the Layton NDP to be fair) but no questions are asked. Why?
Topp has said things that he will not be able to back away from. He will be forced to defend positions that he's taken. These positions act as commitments. He's showing that he's willing to defend these policies.
I hope Mulcair impresses us with his tax plan.
Fri, 2012-02-10 04:18
#41
RevolutionPlease
Question for those who are following all this more closely than I am:
Topp has promised to take away a little bit of the income of the very rich.
Has anyone promised to take away a bit of their power?
Excellent!
Fri, 2012-02-10 04:24
#42
RevolutionPlease
Really!!!
I think this is a good thing. The old venue had absolutely nothing around it at all, and it's not really super handy for TTC. There's more to do around the Convention Centre, closer to hotels, and walkable from the subway as well as handier to the GO trains.
Looking forward to seeing lots of babblers there.
I may attend with lots of anti-septic. Got your back OG.
Fri, 2012-02-10 08:08
#43
I cant imagine it really matters, but I do not think, and I would probably remember this, that anyone has ever 'attacked' or even 'positionaly marked' Mulcair for Dominic Cardy being a supporter- who very few around here would know a thing about his politics.
And what was NDProgress?
NDProgress was started by Dominic Cardy in 2000 for the express purpose of reforming the structure of the NDP. It never had a membership, but in the early days it behaved rather like it had membership. What people were seeking was One Member One Vote for leadership votes, the formal seperation of federal and provincial parties, and two other concrete things that escape me now. There was also a generalized dedication that there needed to be more than lip service paid to winning- that we were on a path to becoming the government of the country. That was not explicitly opposed to the dominant culture in the party then, but it was not the party culture. [Jack Layton had everything to do with turning that around.]
Dominic was [is] an unapologetic Blairite, as were a number of others [albeit not 'unapologetic' like Dominic]. But NDProgress attracted people from across the party's ideological perspectives- including a member of the Socialist Caucus, tiny as it was. To stay focused on the agenda of structural reforms, there was absolutely no positioning on issues and policy... beyond a general background agreement that the party among other things needed to be more serious about policy development process.
What always unified the people on NDProgress [and it still sort of exists I guess] is that they were serious and disciplined about questions of organization. There is no question it is the impetus for us having OMOV now- and before the federal party, a few of us surprisingly spearheaded getting it in at an otherwise very divisive NSNDP Convention.
From its inception there was a very active email list that discussed all the issues of the party- including as much about policy issues as organizational ones, even though that was "only" a discussion forum, it had nothing to with what the group might do. While the discussion was somewhat tilted towards the right of the party, everybody found value in it, and appreciated the respectful and disciplined approach to the discussion. I'm sure that was all or most of what a number of people came to NDProgress for.
Despite that 'ecumenical' nature, and the fact that the agenda was all and only structural reforms to the party... there was a bit of an air of 'faction' to NDProgress. A great deal of that has to do with what I consider to be the 'mincing' and oppresively though-shalt-not-have-dosagreements nature of party culture. That and a general intellectual laziness. Whatever- a lot of people in the party who knew it was not a faction, would never participate because it was perceived that way.
Good example of that: some of us thought the New Party Initiative was a good thing. I talked to Judy Rebick and a couple other key people about working together more explicitly. That was squashed in Steering Committee by the strong opposition of Svend and Jim Stanford. 2 out of 14 on the SC, but that's consensus decision making.
So because of that faction perception in the early days, which lasted until after the Convention adopted OMOV, even sympathisers in the party establishment would never have participated in NDProgress.
Brian Topp joined the discussion list some time later- but some years ago- for the same reason as a lot of other people.... its a place you can go for a good discussion. Pretty much the same reason Brian was always on Babble. The difference being that the Babble discussion is wilder, so that Brian was mostly a lurker here. [Not that he ever said a lot on NDProgress.] Clearly, Brian has for years had a keen interest in taking the pulse of where party activists are at, and has put sustained effort into looking outside the bubble of the inner sanctum.
Fri, 2012-02-10 09:02
#44
I have a suggestion for the 'Mulcair is a centrist' back and forth.
The back and forth is that someone suggests Mulcair is a centrist. Sometimes an indirect statement that would indicate he is a centist is sufficient to get a response. The response always features Topp's targeting of Mulcair's background, and something vague about people here alllegdly saying something similar. Topp yes, by Babblers, no. It is ever less frequently brought up, and when it is, it is based on what Mulcair or his campaign has said during the campaign.
None of that proves he is a centrist. Nor is there any disproving- let alone trying to do it by the turkey shoot of going after the weakest arguments against Mulcair.
How about taking the suggestion or implication that Mulcair is a centrist like a zillion other items around here- opinions, the strongest of which suprisingly enough tend not to change.
Fri, 2012-02-10 10:14
#45
Wikipedia says the 5 aims of NDProgress were/are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDProgress
- Introducing a one member one vote system to elect the party leader;
- Banning union and corporate donations to the party;
- Changing the relationship of the party with the Canadian Labour Congress;
- Separating the provincial and federal wings of the party;
- Changing the party name.
#3, some in the NDP are still hoping to formally sever the relationship with the labour movement.
#5, prior to Convention 2011, a move to change the party's name to "The Democratic Party", mirroring the US party, seemingly comes out of nowhere
There are reasons to be suspect of where some in the NDP wish to steer the party. You may find yourself asking, is this the NDP I know? Third Way? Blair-ite?
Evaluate the candidates CAREFULLY!
Fri, 2012-02-10 10:39
#46
In some ways, rightly or wrongly, I see this leadership contest as the latest battleground to determine not just the next election, but the future direction of the NDP. Despite the apparent agreeableness and ennui of the campaign, the candidates are not all signing from the same hymn sheet.
If there are candidates better aligned with the ideas of NDProgress, there are also no doubt candidates aligned with the 2001-2004 era "New Politics Initiative" internal NDP grouping.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Politics_Initiative
No doubt Nikki Ashton has been explicitly attempting to revive the "New Politics Initiative" brand, but unfortunately has failed to adequately explain the platform 10 years apres la lettre.
From the wikipedia article:
"When Jack Layton won the NDP leadership in January 2003, it was taken as a victory by the NPI, with whom Jack Layton had sympathized, but never joined."
And here we are again, faced with similar choices regarding the future direction of the NDP.
Nikki Ashton, for all her failure to explain herself, just went up 4 places in my candidate ranking.
Fri, 2012-02-10 11:38
#47
1springgarden, the "Democratic Party" naming initiative came from the central party HQ (i.e. Topp crowd). They were also the ones that saw it safely steered away from the convention floor in Halifax when it was clear it would fail (well done).
As for NPI, if you look at the people supporting that and the people supporting Peggy Nash right now, I think you will connect the dots. She is NPI's heir.
Ashton's campaign is centred heavily around the people that successfully energised the Sask NDP leadership race with Ryan Meili's candidacy.
Honest question: Do you think Mulcair wants to sever the NDP's relationship with labour? He has said he thinks labour is and has been very important to the NDP and personally I haven't seen enough evidence that he is "anti-labour" to think otherwise. I'm willing to listen.
Fri, 2012-02-10 11:49
#48
Arthur Cramer
I wish Saganesh has stayed in this.
Fri, 2012-02-10 11:59
#49
-
Fri, 2012-02-10 12:03
#50
Anyone have any idea how Quebec membership sign-ups are going? He can be as popular as a puppy in a kindergarten, but at the beginning of this exercise most people eligable to vote were from outside the province.
Mulcair = a puppy simile. There's something you're not gonna see every day.
Fri, 2012-02-10 12:09
#51
1springgarden, the "Democratic Party" naming initiative came from the central party HQ (i.e. Topp crowd). They were also the ones that saw it safely steered away from the convention floor in Halifax when it was clear it would fail (well done).
As for NPI, if you look at the people supporting that and the people supporting Peggy Nash right now, I think you will connect the dots. She is NPI's heir.
Ashton's campaign is centred heavily around the people that successfully energised the Sask NDP leadership race with Ryan Meili's candidacy.
Honest question: Do you think Mulcair wants to sever the NDP's relationship with labour? He has said he thinks labour is and has been very important to the NDP and personally I haven't seen enough evidence that he is "anti-labour" to think otherwise. I'm willing to listen.
Hi Howard:
My honest answer about Mulcair is "I don't know." However I am listening to Mulcair's campaign for assurances and I am not hearing them. In the same way that KenS says the Nash campaign has failed to extend itself beyond tradional leftwing concerns, I have not heard Mulcair position himself as a defender of traditional left-wing values. His campaign instead suggests he will be a centrist, a moderniser of the party. While everyone fixates on "holding Quebec" in the next election, the new leader will be in a position to influence the direction of the NDP for a generation.
It's up to Mulcair to re-assure party members, not only that he can win with voters, but that he understands what adheres the members to the party, in many cases traditional left-wing values. It's up to all the leadership candidates to show and prove why we should place our trust in them, not just that they can win.
With Mulcair's campaign, I am yet to see why I should place my trust in him as leader.