Just to piss off Catchfire - 
Regions:
NDP Leadership #145
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:36
#1
Lou Arab
NDP Leadership #145
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:37
#2
Ban him! Just ban him!
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:39
#3
Boom Boom
I think the current voting will be finished by midnight. I think Mulcair is leading.
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:41
#4
Catchfire
That's it. I quit. Eff this effing place.
Martin Singh for President!
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:41
#5
Anyone watching the special on CPAC? Just heard Judy Rebick say Jack was the first NDP leader that didn't want to attack and destroy the left. WTF? Really?
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:42
#6
What?! Quitting after we'd all become addicted to this thread?
What about those of us who can't move to the Centre to party with you?
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:42
#7
Ok Catchfire, just for that, I've changed my status.
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:43
#8
Lou Arab
I'm finally ready to make predictions on the race.
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:45
#9
I'm finally ready to make predictions on the race.
Ah, Lou... gotta love ya :)
BTW everyone, Lou was one of the people that signed me up to the NDP. Please don't hate him too much LOL :)
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:46
#10
anyone see 42nd canadian fed general wikipedia pic of Thomas ?
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:50
#11
Here's to the next 145 NDP leadership race threads!
You didn't think we were done did you catchfire? Mawhahahahahaha
So who do you think will run next time say 2024?
My bet is Niki doesn't run again, coming last has to hurt the ego even amoung politicians luke her.
My bet is Nathan Cullen, Anne Quach, Rathika, Mike Layton, and Ruth Ellen Brossaeu.
As to which one would win that's a more challenging question, I'd need to see thier platforms first.
Sat, 2012-03-24 22:51
#12
Keeping Libby is one giant step towards party unity.
For unity if he reaches out to Topp either as an MP or campaign official that will be the second step.
If he puts all the other candidates into senior critic portfolios and makes them part of his in circle that is the third step.
If he does some good work with Olivia Chow that is the fifth.
If he makes any staff moves quickly to reduce uncertainty keeping at least some of them that is the sixth
Broadbent could make a gesture but Mulcair does not need Broadbent now as he shrank in the last few days. Others are now more important
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:00
#13
Maysie
Brachina, don't make me hurt you.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:01
#14
The election of TM4PM bodes well for the formation of a Party for the Canadian Left.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:01
#15
What can I say? I always said unity would win the day.
None of the candidates endorsed "not Mulcair".
Topp came together with Mulcair after the race.
Keeping Libby on was a classy move.
New Democrats are fundamentally INCAPABLE of agreeing on anything. But we CAN stay unified, in spite of that.
I'm reminded of George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia", where he noted the "revolutionary discipline" of the irregular forces. No one was giving them orders, but they knew who their friends were, and who their enemies were, and what needed to be done.
Let's all do our part to make the NDP the most successful its ever been. That doesn't mean no criticism. It only means that criticism comes from a place of trust, that there's room for differing views on how to make for a more fair, more equal, and more participatory society.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:03
#16
Catchfire
Ok Catchfire, just for that, I've changed my status.
I can't tell if it's a show of solidarity or a threat. Story of my life, I guess.
Oh and Lou Arab, brachina, Hoodeet and Boom Boom are all banned of course. And Maysie for good measure.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:04
#17
Reposting here:
So here is my take on what happened:The race was actually a contest between 2 sections of the party elite, with Topp representing more of the union/old guard wing, and Mulcair representing the Blairite wing. Despite what he may have led people to believe, Topp is not a strong advocate of the party's left-wing. He served under Roy Romanow, one of the most openly Blairite NDP governments Canada has ever elected. The grassroots candidates could not muster the resources to be major contenders, as seen by the fact that Charlie Angus and Megan Leslie didn't even run despite encouragement to do so, the fact that Niki Ashton actually received fewer votes than Martin Singh even though Singh didn't even run a real campaign, and the fact that candidates like Paul Dewar and Nathan Cullen didn't even make it to the final ballot. How else could Brian Topp have done so well, with the party recently electing a record number of seats and Topp not holding one himself, unless Topp had some serious backing from the party establishment? He very clearly played to the core left-wing ideas of the NDP base, and probably would have won if he didn't have a seat.
As for Mulcair? Despite the strong numbers he posted in the end, this is actually a stern rebuke. It took him four ballots to win, which suggests that people aren't so enthusiastic again. He made the mistake of accepting the media's narrative that he was the front-runner and heir apparent, and acted accordingly. While he worked very hard to win new NDP voters in Quebec, he basically took it for granted that the NDP base was going to support him no matter what. He did not show that he really got the NDP culture, and at times came across as being opposed, for example, his remarks about "union bosses." He never clarified what he meant by "modernizing" the party, even though he should have known that that kind of talk sets off alarm bells about shifting the NDP rightward, whether or not that was Mulcair's intent. His comments about "doing things differently" came across as insulting. They would have carried weight if the pattern for NDP seat numbers was either stagnant or in decline, but the NDP seat count increased in every election in the past decade, so what did the party need to do differently now? If he had taken more effort to reassure the NDP base, and even talk to them and show that he was going to listen to their concerns and not take them for granted, the vote may not have dragged on as long, in fact he could very easliy have won on the first ballot.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:04
#18
Brachina, don't make me hurt you.
Your the 20th person to say that to me today, I'm almost starting to think its me.
So I'll put you down as a Ruth Ellen Brosseau supporter in 2024?
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:04
#19
Oh! Ban me too! Please! I've overdosed on babble today! ;)
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:06
#20
Catchfire
Done!
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:08
#21
Maysie
Brachina
On Facebook I'm discussing going drinking with the under-5-year-old kids of two of my friends.
I'll take the banning, I need the rest.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:12
#22
If he puts all the other candidates into senior critic portfolios and makes them part of his in circle that is the third step.If he does some good work with Olivia Chow that is the fifth.
Okay, I know you're waiting for someone to ask:
What should the fourth step be?
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:20
#23
Anyone watching the special on CPAC? Just heard Judy Rebick say Jack was the first NDP leader that didn't want to attack and destroy the left. WTF? Really?
She meant the left-wing of the NDP.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:20
#24
What can I say? I always said unity would win the day.
None of the candidates endorsed "not Mulcair".
Topp came together with Mulcair after the race.
Keeping Libby on was a classy move.
New Democrats are fundamentally INCAPABLE of agreeing on anything. But we CAN stay unified, in spite of that.
I'm reminded of George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia", where he noted the "revolutionary discipline" of the irregular forces. No one was giving them orders, but they knew who their friends were, and who their enemies were, and what needed to be done.
Let's all do our part to make the NDP the most successful its ever been. That doesn't mean no criticism. It only means that criticism comes from a place of trust, that there's room for differing views on how to make for a more fair, more equal, and more participatory society.
Save that kumbaya stuff, man. Only half the 131,000 membership bothered to voted. Of those that did only 57% voted for Mulcair. That means 71% of the membership did not actually vote for Mulcair. And you call that a mandate? I give him a one week honeymoon and then one slip-up, bam, he'll have a full bore Waffle/NPI breathing down his neck from here to leadership review.
Hahaha, jokes! Mulcair did well. He'll have every opportunity to succeed as party leader.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:20
#25
Brachina
On Facebook I'm discussing going drinking with the under-5-year-old kids of two of my friends.
I'll take the banning, I need the rest.
I'd heard they were planning on dropping the minuim drinking age, but my gawd 5's a little low. On the plus side at least we don't have to worry about them driving drunk. Though the thought of a bunch of 5 year olds riding thier tricycles drunk is almost worth it.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:25
#26
Hoodeet (JW)
I'm reminded of George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia", where he noted the "revolutionary discipline" of the irregular forces. No one was giving them orders, but they knew who their friends were, and who their enemies were, and what needed to be done.
Yes, and things got pretty mucked up and the Republican forces quite divided thanks to top-down leadership (the CP, which couldn't brook the Anarchists or other Communists or Socialists) . A good cautionary tale for the NDP.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:28
#27
Arthur Cramer
Thank-you Jack! (blessed be his memory)
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:34
#28
Yeah, I'll try not to be too kumbaya for you guys. Unity will take some work. And it won't be perfect. But so far, all of the leadership candidates have shown signs they're willing to work at unity. I'm willing to do my part.
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:39
#29
Keeping Libby on was a classy move.
And a fast one. He must have turned to her right after he finished his speech and asked if she would stay on. Then a few minutes later he announced it on CBC. An Olympic record?
Sat, 2012-03-24 23:39
#30
I used to sing Kumbaya when I was a boyscout around the campfire. I still have no idea what it means, but I suspect it means "You took the last Smore, DIE!..."
Sun, 2012-03-25 00:23
#31
I don't think I've seen anyone comment on this, but I was very pleased to see - prominently, at the front of the stage around Mulcair during his acceptance speech - Ed Broadbent, Audrey McLaughlin, and Alexa McDonough...
That goes a long way to helping unite the past and the present, and help the various factions unite and move forward.
It would have been very nice if Mulcair had acknowledged and spoke of their presence up there on the stage with him.
Mulcair was my #3 choice, but the NDP is still my #1.
Sun, 2012-03-25 00:30
#32
laine lowe
As a Bill Siksay-Lib Davies-Svend Robinson inclined NDP supporter, this victory is more than meh. But congrats to all you babblers who are celebrating Mulcair's victory. I'm happy for you and hope you're right in his ability to take down Harper.
Some 10 years ago, I abandoned being active in the NDP because I was not pleased with the right ward direction Layton was taking the party. I only renewed my membership to support Saganash for leadership. Don't get me wrong, I liked Layton the individual and in retrospect, he should be commended for doing a good job in balancing the "old, decrepit" ideals of socialism with the "new, pragamatic" ideas of progressive politics very well. But foreign policy and public safety positions sucked.
I don't foresee those positions improving. And I certainly hope Mulcair does not go in Blair's direction. If he and the NDP stand strong for unionized workers, promote income equality through progressive taxation, protect the public sector (i.e. NO to P3s), adopt a strong adherence to restricting foreign investment, strengthen evironmental oversight on resource development, protect our universal health care system from any privatizing incursions and increase funding to strengthen it, ditto for our public broadcaster, and fight hard to stop us from entering any further US-NATO inspired, legally dubious wars, then I will continue to vote for and support the NDP. I would also like him to have the courage and admit that Israel's current policies re: Palestinians are atrocious and a violation of human rights.
I never got a very clear picture on all these issues from any of the candidates. Some touched on some issues more than others but none made me think that I can trust you 100%.
On a final point, if Mulcair can stop Harper from having his backbench henchmen move forward with a motion that amounts to regulating women's reproductive parts, I will give him a gold star.
Sun, 2012-03-25 00:37
#33
In case you wanted to know how the Liberals are going to paint our new leader...
http://warrenkinsella.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/20120324-233936.jpg
Remember who your enemies are. Don't give them an inch.
Sun, 2012-03-25 01:08
#34
Arthur Cramer
Sigh, on the Huff Post:
New NDP leader Thomas Mulcair wins weak mandate after glitches and low voter turnout at convention. Also, Orange Crash.
Really, why doesn't the Huff Po Admit it is simply another arm of the Lib Party in Canada. They can go screw themeselve!
ETA: Who is Althia Raj?
ETA 2: She wrote for Post Media. She is a right winger. How can Huff Post pretend it is offering Journalism? Has anyone noticed how many Lib and Conservative bloggers it has? What a farce.
ETA3: Doesn't anyone else get as annoyed as me? These guys make me so mad!
Sun, 2012-03-25 01:18
#35
Thomas Mulcair's fb growing 500 "Likes" since 3,500 to nearly 4,000 today
just saw Ed Broadbent likes Tom's fb page.
Sun, 2012-03-25 01:44
#36
Unleashing our inner Pat Martin, are we, Catchfire? 
That's it. I quit. Eff this effing place.
Martin Singh for President!
Sun, 2012-03-25 02:08
#37
why did Mulcair make it an issue? "Hey Tom, no one cares, so STFU"
Mulcair has not been talking about Israel during this campaign, that I know of, other than the statement on his website:
Follow Jack Layton’s policy of working with partners for peace and justice in Israel and Palestine, within a framework of respect for international law and UN resolutions including recognition of the right of both Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace as independent states within negotiated and agreed-upon borders.
http://www.thomasmulcair.ca/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Policy-backg...
Others have been talking about Mulcair and Israel, in order to attack him. Telling HIM to STFU is way off-target.
Sun, 2012-03-25 05:42
#38
Following up on Wilf's point, this went by last night, and I waited to comment until after[if] Mulcair had won.
NorthReport, I'll "get over it" when Mulcair shows even the slightest bit of remorse for what he did to a colleague [Libby Davies]. .. I won't be working or voting for the party (I'm already no longer a member) if Mulcair leads it, unless I see some substantial evidence that he has mended fences with Davies, is no longer "an ardent supporter of Israel in all situations and in all circumstances"...
So he has since said Libby stays on. Not neccesarily so clear and quick, but I expected that.
I dont think there is any question Tom Mulcair is a more ardent supporter of Israel than is acceptable to the mainstream of the NDP, let alone its left.
But as to what he says, all of what we have heard was before the race, and most of all: before he was Leader. Even a person as proud and opinionated as Tom obviously is, knows that being Leader is different.
Ithink we will hear little to nothing about Israel and Palestine from the new Leader. He'll leave that to the critic. Sure, he'll have that much more say over what gets said, but I see no reason to expect any change from the NDP mostly ducking and downplaying the issue.... both for fear of voter reprisal, AND because there are very strong differences within the NDP, top to bottom, in sincerely held beleifs about Israel.
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:03
#39
An engaged base certainly matters.
But it also matters that we understand what we are engaging with.
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:05
#40
That said...
There have been a lot of posts saying that Mulcair will not move the party to the centre against the watchful eyes and voices of the members.
Yes and no. And mostly no, that is largely a missplaced confidence.
Missplaced because it assumes an understanding of how the membership/base, and the direction of the party, 'works'.
Its neither as simple as the party elite gets its way, or that the base does or does not. Leader and Caucus move around comfortably in that very large mediated and semi-autonomous "middle ground." And the Leader very much sets the course.
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:06
#41
it's finally over: honestly, would a 2-month race have had any different result from a, what, 5-month race?
as for kissing and making up, leadership candidates' relative visibility starts changing drastically TODAY... Mulcair now has a slot on the TV news every Question Period that he wants one, and in between, too
as for Brian Topp, he could be a trivia question by next month, so his clout diminishes correspondingly: no longer chief strategist, not an MP, no real platform outside the party
Many 2nd-place finishers just disappear -- think Robert Winters after Trudeau won in '68, or Allan Lawrence after Bill Davis edged him in '71 -- while the team gravitates to the person with power; so Mulcair can make gestures here and there, as he should, but he won, so others will have to make gestures toward him, too.
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:08
#42
I'm going to open a new thread on that topic- starting with some collected quotes from Babble. Not likely today though.
Couple things I will throw out now.
One is my hunch that Brian Topp will withdraw from an active routine role in casting strategy. If he does, I think that will perform the restraining role on Mulcair that a number even of his supporters here are looking for. Brian Topp is not going to 'piss into the tent.' But if he is independent of the team, and obviously has his own base, there will be the salutory effect that he could.
The other is that Mulcair is more dependent than Jack Layton was on needing people that were not on his team, that did not want him to win. Jack reached out to people like Topp that did not support him, but he didnt need them like Mulcair does. If you're Mulcair you have to be thinking that the ideal is bringing Topp onto the team. That may happen, but there are going to be some not so obvious problems with that- let alone Brian may understandably not be interested. He has enjoyed speaking for himself. There is a role somewhere in him doing that, regardless that it cannot be realized immediately. Why should he want to go back.
Getting Brian Topp on board would be the easiest way for Mulcair to 'operationaly' broaden, but there are others. But that wont be easy or smooth- there are the loyalties and ties to the people who got him where he is.
Anyway- there is that fact that Mulcair needs to reach out more than Jack did. Of course, that does bring up his unknown capacity for doing that. I'm betting he will challenge himself, definitely not wanting to live up to the expectations out there. But doing that over time is going to be a LOT more challenging than mending fences with Libby.
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:16
#43
The leadership isn't a prize. It's his job now to make sure that the party is cohesive and inspired, and he has to do the heavy lifting to make that happen. Mulcair's a smart man, though, and is already showing that he knows what is required of him.
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:26
#44
Mulcair will get gestures galore. And no question he is the Leader now.
But you are missing the role Topp now has available.
He has his own base now. That is not in the black and white sense such things are seen around here. It is not a tool, much less Topp's tool. But the base that exists has shown itself.
He is an established writer. He can maintain an independent position if he wants, without ever dissing on the team, even obliquely. He does not need a formal role in the near and medium term.
That alone makes him different than the dissapeared second place finishers of yesterday. And the team does graviatate to the person with power- not to mention there will be nothing for any of them to do with Brian Topp now. But different than other candidates in the past- in practice, what the 'team' does, is Brian Topp himself.
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:29
#45
I hope that is true.
But what he has shown is very much the easy stuff. Granted, it is the right direction. But not much has been required so far.
And its unrealistic to say that the leadership is not a prize. It's just not a sealed deal prize.
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:38
#46
Keeping Libby on was a classy move.And a fast one. He must have turned to her right after he finished his speech and asked if she would stay on. Then a few minutes later he announced it on CBC. An Olympic record?
Well, he did hug her and kiss her when he came up to the podium, and she stood front and centre, so I wonder if the arrangement was made beforehand. Everyone knew what the outcome of the vote would be even before the 4th ballot, after all.
Anyhow, it was a good move on his part. A very good move. It's a good sign that he won't let vindictiveness cloud his judgement.
I wonder if he'll have co-deputies again? I think Cullen would be a great choice. He would do an amazing job at promoting unity, and you just can't waste those amazing communication skills. Of course, both he and Libby are from BC, so maybe it wouldn't be a wise choice geographically.
KenS, re: the post by me you quoted above - I'm not completely won over yet. But I'm keeping an open mind. I admit that his gesture last night was way, way more than I was expecting from him, and I'm impressed so far. But I'm not completely convinced. laine lowe's post reflects how I'm feeling at this point. I still need some convincing, and the only way that's going to happen is with time and watching what he does over the next while. I've got three years to watch and decide, after all. :)
Sun, 2012-03-25 07:48
#47
Maysie
As a Bill Siksay-Lib Davies-Svend Robinson inclined NDP supporter, this victory is more than meh. But congrats to all you babblers who are celebrating Mulcair's victory. I'm happy for you and hope you're right in his ability to take down Harper.
Thanks for this, laine. And I say this as a former Trinity-Spadina kinda NDPer. Now I'm just a crabby feminist in Bob Rae's and Glen Murray's riding.
Please, tell us, what is "more than meh"? "Meh meh"? "MEHHHHHHHHH"?
I wish we had more than "take down Harper" on our agenda, and I also hope Mulcair can lead the NDP to doing it. Time will tell.
Sun, 2012-03-25 08:00
#48
Babble Nightmare, live:
National Post writer congratulates party on move to the middle:
Sun, 2012-03-25 08:03
#49
Keeping Libby as Deputy Leader shows excellent political instinct (unlike, let's say, Dewar's presumptive naming of Angus and Duncan). I was hoping Mulcair would see the need to reassure the party's left, and that's a very good start. Also, Libby showed great grace towards Mulcair in comments made to the CBC during the day, so the words and deeds of both have made me hopeful for the prospect of party unity.
Sun, 2012-03-25 08:06
#50
What the media says is utterly meaningless right now. They are all clueless- sniffing the air for farts.
There is by the way no 'chief strategist' position- not even informally.
Even generally speaking, the role Topp had does not necessarily exist. It was a product of a close working relationship with Jack Layton.
I would not say that Mulcair cannot establish such a relationship with Topp, if the two of them want that. But its not something that Mulcair just appoints Topp to, or not.
Sun, 2012-03-25 08:19
#51
dacckon
Keeping Libby as Deputy Leader shows excellent political instinct (unlike, let's say, Dewar's presumptive naming of Angus and Duncan). I was hoping Mulcair would see the need to reassure the party's left, and that's a very good start. Also, Libby showed great grace towards Mulcair in comments made to the CBC during the day, so the words and deeds of both have made me hopeful for the prospect of party unity.
Let's not make comparisons to Dewar, He was one of the two that didn't even make it on my ballot.