Nietzsche: A Philosophical Biography

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danthony danthony's picture
Nietzsche: A Philosophical Biography

Nietzsche: A Philosophical Biography
By Rudiger Safranski

Freud once said that Nietzsche had ‘a more penetrating knowledge of himself than any man who ever lived or was likely to live.’  In Safranski’s Nietzsche: A Philosophical Biography, one gets a sense of how this obsession with self-knowledge and self-surveillance developed: the young Nietzsche spent a good portion of his time writing diaries, reading and re-reading his entries and sometimes critiquing them and making annotations.  He wrote his first autobiographical essay when he was fourteen.  In the decade that followed, he wrote eight more.

This book deals with Nietzsche’s philosophy as a whole, and a lot of time is spent on the relationship between art and politics.  Nietzsche believed that for the elite world of culture and art and philosophy to exist, a lower class – in his mind, a class of ‘slaves’ – was needed.  A just and at the same time artistically productive world was impossible, since it is the labor of the majority that gives a select few the time and energy to compose, write or philosophize.  What this amounts to saying is that good art is impossible under socialism, and stated in these terms it becomes less an artistic stance, which I think Nietzsche intended it to be, than a political one.  Safranski quotes from a poem by Hugo von Hofmannsthal to illustrate the view:

    Many truly down below must perish
    Where the heavy oars of ships are passing;
    Others by the helm up there have dwelling,
    Know the flight of birds and starry countries.

Nietzsche sides with the men on deck as against the slaves rowing below.  He looks on in disgust at the ‘roar of sympathy’ that may some day erupt from the working class, along with its growing ‘urge for justice.’  Because a just world would mean the end of great men and of great art, he sought to prop up all the little injustices that plagued nineteenth-century Germany: he was dead set against the shortening of the workday, and he thought child labor justified and necessary.

Many writers have attacked Nietzsche for his apparent influence on Nazism and on fascism generally, attacks made possible I think only by a superficial reading of his books.  In Safranski’s boigraphy one gets more grounded criticism, along with a decent record of how Nietzsche’s philosophy developed over the course of his life.

Fidel

Is Neitzche the Nazi another Adam Smith, doomed to misinterpretation by opportunists and charlatans alike? Have we been too critical of them?

They're all fascist bastards as far as I'm concerned.

al-Qa'bong

Nietszche would have laughed at the stupidity of the Nazis and the cattle who followed them, when he wasn't appalled by their brutality.

George Victor

From Emmanuel Faye's Heidegger: The Introduction of Nazism into Philosophy:

"The Nazification of German philosophy was undertaken even more substantially in Heidegger's Nietzsche lectures delivered throughout the period 1936-40 and not published until 1961 under the title Nietzsche I and II. Nietzsche had already been enthroned as an ideological pillar of the Nazi state, and Heidegger was appointed to an academic commission to oversee the publication of a critical edition of his writings and letters. In his lectures, Heidegger pays special attention to Nietzsche's Will to Power, to which he gives an uncompromisingly "metaphysical" interpretation."

 

In danthony's sympathetic peek at Nietzsche, those "cattle" who followed the Nazis could also be seen as the galley slaves : "Nietzsche sides with the men on deck as against the slaves rowing below.  He looks on in disgust at the 'roar of sympathy' that may some day erupt from the working class, along with its growing 'urge for justice.'  "

Perhaps the direct linking of Nietzsche to national socialism was a work of forced labour, but I don't believe we can make him into a democratic socialist, al-Q.Laughing

And the vulnerability of the galley slaves/cattle hasn't been lowered a helluva lot in the IT world, eh?

 

 

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

Perhaps the direct linking of Nietzsche to national socialism was a work of forced labour, but I don't believe we can make him into a democratic socialist, al-Q

How did you manage to glean that from what I said?

George Victor

Your "cattle" nicely matched the galley slaves of Safranski (from danthony) in describing Nietzsche's view of the "lower orders."

ygtbk

As Jeeves said to Bertie Wooster: "You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound."

al-Qa'bong

George Victor wrote:

Your "cattle" nicely matched the galley slaves of Safranski (from danthony) in describing Nietzsche's view of the "lower orders."

 

It isn't my "cattle."  That's Nietszche's term.

George Victor

Ah.  Sometimes one can't tell whose ox is being gored.

Fidel

George, no one here with half a cheeze doodle associates the Nazis with socialism for Christ's sake. They murdered the socialist wing of the party by 1934.

George Victor

Yes, Fidel.  That's why I was attempting to have some fun with the concept:"Perhaps the direct linking of Nietzsche to national socialism was a work of forced labour, but I don't believe we can make him into a democratic socialist, al-Q.Laughing" I'm very familiar with the difficulties posed to British socialism by the Nazi use of the name. But that is a confusion experienced by the galley slaves, not those gathered around the binnacle, eh?

 

Read it again. From the top.

George Victor

ygtbk wrote:

As Jeeves said to Bertie Wooster: "You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound."

 

Made for a marvelous lightening of mood, ygtbk.

al-Qa'bong

By the way, where does Nietszche use "cattle" to describe the "lower orders?" 

From what I remember about his use of the term, he didn't make class distinctions, and would have called members of the Prussian aristocracy "cattle" just as readily (probably more readily) as he would any Saxon peasant.

George Victor

My dear al, it was YOU who brought the word cattle to a discussion of Nietsche. I've no bloody idea where you found it.Don't go all syntaxy on us, please. 

Clearly, you disagree with the OPs take on the fellow:" Nietzsche sides with the men on deck as against the slaves rowing below " ...You should have spoken up earlier...and perhaps not used "cattle" to describe the German citizenry?

Fidel

Nietszche was a fucking dildo, a big skid mark on the historical record. There I said it.

ygtbk

George Victor wrote:

ygtbk wrote:

As Jeeves said to Bertie Wooster: "You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound."

 

Made for a marvelous lightening of mood, ygtbk.

Nice to hear. The reason I like that quotation is that, although it's stated in jest, it's a succinct (if understated) summary of how a lot of people react to reading Nietzsche. Certainly it was my reaction. 

voice of the damned

al-Qa'bong wrote:

By the way, where does Nietszche use "cattle" to describe the "lower orders?" 

From what I remember about his use of the term, he didn't make class distinctions, and would have called members of the Prussian aristocracy "cattle" just as readily (probably more readily) as he would any Saxon peasant.

Nietzsche was a moral philosopher, not a political philosopher. Even his rhetoric against democracy is not meant as advice about what political parties or programs one should support, any more than The Sermon On The Mount is meant as advice about self-defense.

My Existentialism prof in university said that it's important to read Nietzsche as a "playful" writer. The same prof also scribbled "Very good" next to my comments in an essay to the effect that Nietzsche likes to mask reasonable opinions behind "outrageous and shocking metaphors". (Not bragging here, I didn't do exceptionally well in the course.)

As for Nietzsche's attitude toward "the herd": I think a good clue to understanding what he was getting at, once you clear away the shock-jock bombast, is his statement that "The opposite of pity is respect". It's not that Nietzsche wants us to hate the "botched and the ill-constituted", but rather that he wants us to think about what sort of sentiments are really motivating us when we express compassion for the supposedly weak. Sure, everyone agrees that we should have compassion for this or that group of suffering people, but how many of us would want to be the one that everyone points to as the poor sap in need of pity? Would we feel that we were being treated with respect, or condescension?

Another useful maxim of Nietzsche's is that "Morality is the highest form of aesthetics". Such an attitude does not preclude altrusim, or even political progressivism. But we would pursue those ideals not out of some sentiment of pity, but rather because we regard them as a form of high beauty. And then of course you have the whole Eternal Return metaphor, which I won't get into here.

I don't actually buy much of this, as I don't think any ethical approach has been devised that surpasses good old-fashioned, sentiment-driven utilitarianism. But, Nietzsche does provide a lot of food for thought.

 

 

Sineed

ygtbk wrote:

As Jeeves said to Bertie Wooster: "You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound."

Lovely!

My husband owns a copy of "Also sprach Zarathustra" that was issued to German soldiers to carry on their person when fighting in WW 1.  

KenS

You can read Nietzche as an observor.

And he did cut through the bullshit of bourgeois rationalism- whoever's 'side' he was on.

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

My Existentialism prof in university said that it's important to read Nietzsche as a "playful" writer. The same prof also scribbled "Very good" next to my comments in an essay to the effect that Nietzsche likes to mask reasonable opinions behind "outrageous and shocking metaphors". (Not bragging here, I didn't do exceptionally well in the course.)

Yes, playful.  Nietszche loved to dance with words.  Another thing those stern votaries of his (and those who get up on their hind legs to criticise him as well) miss is how hilarious he is.

 

Quote:
My dear al, it was YOU who brought the word cattle to a discussion of Nietsche. I've no bloody idea where you found it.Don't go all syntaxy on us, please.

 Don't blame me if you can't follow the conversation.  In any case, clearly you don't understand the meaning of "allusion" any better than you understand the meaning of "syntax."

George Victor

Al, you grow  bitter and vengeful and nonsensical.   Don't bugger up a nice thread.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Great post, votd. Thanks!

al-Qa'bong

I agree with Catch.; it's always nice to read such informed commentary on someone who is so widely misunderstood.

How did you find the experience of reading, then having to write about Nietzsche?   I found the experience transformational as an undergrad.  I had to do a measly paper on Nietzsche for a philosophy of religion class.  As it turned out, I became immersed in his writing for a few months, and put far more into that crummy 30 marks  (well, in the end, the marks didn't matter although I received a very high mark for the paper) than was probably warranted.

I found I didn't study Nietzsche just for essay-fodder, the way one usually does, but found the experience reflective.  I couldn't just "read" his writing, I became involved with it personally.  Looking into his pages (insert abyss joke here) became like looking into myself. 

In the end, I couldn't write a conventional academic essay, but wrote an introductory blurb about the Nietzsche's views on the nature of tragedy, and a conclusion, but I filled the middle with poetry based on Nietzsche's writings and my own experiences reflected through my interpretation of tragic art.  I didn't know how else to write the paper and still write authentically.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

My favourite bits from Nietzsche are the bits about tragedy too. I found him very useful to get at what we actually mean when we use words like tragedy and katharsis. It was particularly fun to read Euripedes with Nietzsche in the background, especially The Bacchae.

Quote:
the existence of an animal soul turned against itself, taking sides against itsef, was something so new, profound, unheard of, enigmatic, contradictory, and pregnant with a future that the aspect of the earth was essentially altered. Indeed, divine spectators were needed to do justice to the spectacle that thus began and the end of which is not yet in sight--a spectacle too subtle, too marvelous, too paradoxical to be played senelessly unobserved on some ludicrous planet! From now on man [sic] is included among the most unexpected and exciting lucky throws in the dice game of Heraclitus's "great child," be he called Zeus or chance; he gives rise to an interest, a tension, a hope, almost a certainty, as if with him something were announcing and preparing itself, as if man were not a goal but only a way, an episode, a bridge, a great promise.--

voice of the damned

How did you find the experience of reading, then having to write about Nietzsche?   I found the experience transformational as an undergrad.  I had to do a measly paper on Nietzsche for a philosophy of religion class.  As it turned out, I became immersed in his writing for a few months, and put far more into that crummy 30 marks  (well, in the end, the marks didn't matter although I received a very high mark for the paper) than was probably warranted.

My philosophy essays always tended to be night-before, not-quite masterpieces, and the one on N. was no exception. So I can't really say that writing it was much of a transformational experience. One thing I took away from the prof's lectures is that Nietzsche's books are best read cover-to-cover, not by scanning for the most outlandish-sounding passages, as a lot of readers try to do.

For my money, though, Kierkegaard was the existentialist I found the most engaging, possibly because of my latent Christian tendencies, but also because I thought he summed up the basic ideas of the philosophy in a more concise and succinct way than did Nietzsche. Especially the progression from the aesthetic through to the ethical and then to the religious modes of existence, as exemplified by his(admittedly idiosycratic) reading of Abraham and Isaac. And then of course, Sartre came along, swept away Kierkegaard's religion and Nietzsche's elitism, and boiled their ideas down to one easy-to-grasp technical philosophy that had all the pathos and artistry of a repair manual(and I mean that as a compliment to Sartre).

I found I didn't study Nietzsche just for essay-fodder, the way one usually does, but found the experience reflective.  I couldn't just "read" his writing, I became involved with it personally.  Looking into his pages (insert abyss joke here) became like looking into myself. 

In the end, I couldn't write a conventional academic essay, but wrote an introductory blurb about the Nietzsche's views on the nature of tragedy, and a conclusion, but I filled the middle with poetry based on Nietzsche's writings and my own experiences reflected through my interpretation of tragic art.  I didn't know how else to write the paper and still write authentically.

When I later took a course on Christian Existentialism, I begged the prof to write an essay on Kierkegaard(who was not on the syllabus), which came out as something sounding quite like your essay on Nietzsche(it included an entire paragraph, in parentheses, describing a dream I had had as a kid). The prof gave me an okay mark, but strongly implied that the essay was more theology than philosophy.

(insert abyss joke here)

When Nietzsche wrote in his journals "Some day my name will be associated with something monstrous", I suspect he was thinking not of the Nazis, but of innumerable Grade-Z serial-killer flicks in which the that "abyss" maxim would be inserted in order to impart cheap intellectual gravitas.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

I knew there was an old thread on Friedrich. And here it is.

al-Qa'bong

I missed that thread, as it occurred during my post-schism Enmasse exile.

I'm curious about this:

Quote:
I only know of Nietzche through George Grant's critique of him, but Grant's account seems to address the points raised in the previous thread.

 

My guess is that Grant raised this in Technology and Empire, but I'm not sure about that. Can anyone point to this passage or discussion?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Unfortunately, the babbler who posted that was recently banned for trolling the WikiLeaks threads. I don't know to what he was referring, but you could be right: George Grant has an essay called "Nietzsche and the Ancients" in T&E, so perhaps that's it.

al-Qa'bong

Geez, you had me thinking I was losing my marbles there for a sec.  I didn't remember that chapter, so I checked my copy of Technology and Empire but couldn't find it.  I then grabbed the book next to it, Technology and Justice, which I haven't read yet, and found the chapter you mentioned. Now I at least know what's next on my reading list.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Quite right! That's some lots of books youse got there. Or maybe just highly specialized. All Grant, all the time.

al-Qa'bong

Catchfire wrote:

Quite right! That's some lots of books youse got there.

Yeah, don't that beat all?  Some of us dumbass Saskatchewan farmboys even knows how ta reed!

skepsis

I wrote a paper as an undergrad on the question: "to what degree is Nietzsche's thought relevant toward emancipatory theory (egalitarianism, democracy, socialism, etc)," in 2007, and it's too bad my hard drive crashed and I lost it--  but I will mention this article I referred to while writing it, and I will review some of his works again to find some crucial quotes and ideas which support the view that despite his mostly apolitical approach, his ideas do indeed lend to some dynamite-quality insofar as they support a very radically self-reflexive stance not far from one that is social-democratic in effect. 

My key argument is that, despite popular belief, his intended magnum opus, the "Revaluation of All Values" wasn't finished, and he unfortunately died of brain cancer (not syphilis, which was based on anti-German propaganda) before his thought was finally crystallized into a new kind work based on a new kind of coherency-- and so we have recourse to scatters and remains of his thoughts--his journals, and his body of polemical work to make our own interpretations.   Anyway, here are some quotes from his works that ring out of the abyss for me and in which I have personally found something like a call to conscience from him.  I hope it stirs up thought among anyone who is interested in this as I've been for some time now.

There are two issues in which these ideas arise, his ideas of nobility and his ideas of equality.  I'll quote liberally from the net now from what I can recall.   There are certain things that make a mob, according to him, which make the rabble.  I welcome you to make your own conclusions.

 

From "Zarathustra":

* "For what drove me to the poorest, O Zarathustra? Was it not disgust with our richest? – disgust with those punished by riches, who glean advantage from all kinds of sweepings, with cold eyes, rank thoughts, disgust with this rabble that stinks to heaven, disgust with this guilded, debased mob whose fathers were pick-pockets or carrion-birds or ragmen with compliant, lustful forgetful wives – for they are all of them not far from whores – mob above and mob below! What are the ‘poor’ and ‘rich’ today! I unlearned this distinction – then I fled away, far away and even farther, until I came to these cows."

"But whoever wants to eat with us must also lend a hand, even the kings. For with Zarathustra even a king may be a cook."

...Thus all that is past is abandoned: for one day the rabble might become master and drown all time in shallow waters.

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a new nobility is needed to be the adversary of all rabble and of all that is despotic and to write anew upon new tablets the word "noble."

For many who are noble are needed, and noble men of many kinds, that there may be a nobility.  Or as I once said in a parable: "Precisely this is godlike that there are gods, but no God."

12

O my brothers and sisters, I dedicate and direct you to a new nobility: you shall become procreators and cultivators and sowers of the future -- verily, not to a nobility that you might buy like shopkeepers and with shopkeepers' gold: for whatever has its price has little value.

Not whence you come shall henceforth constitute your honor, but whither you are going!  Your will and your foot which has a will to go over and beyond yourselves--that shall constitute your new honor.

Verily, not that you have served a prince--what do princes matter now?--or that you became a bulwark for what stands that it might stand more firmly.

Not that your tribe has become courtly at court and that you have learned, like a flamingo, to stand for long hours in a colorful costume in shallow ponds--for the ability to stand is meritorious among courtiers; and all courtiers believe that blessedness after death must comprise permission to sit.

Nor that a spirit which they call holy led your ancestors into promised lands, which I do not praise--for where the worst of all trees grew, the cross, that land deserves no praise.  And verily, wherever this "holy Spirit" led his knights, on all such crusades goose aids goat in leading the way, and the contrary and crude sailed foremost.

O my brothers and sisters, your nobility should not look backward but ahead!  Exiles shall you be from all father-and forefather-lands!  Your children's land shall you love: for this love shall be your new nobility--the undiscovered land in the most distant sea.  For that I bid your sails search and search.

In your children you shall make up for being the children of your fathers: thus shall you redeem all that is past.  This new tablet I place over you."

“The thirst for equality can express itself either as a desire to draw everyone down to one's level, or to raise oneself and everyone else up.” -(Daybreak)

(I love this next one...)

'How to have all men against you--If anyone dared to say now, "Whoever is not for me, is against me," (Mat. 12:30; Luke 11:23)  he would immediately have all men against him.--This does our time honor.' (The Wanderer and His Shadow)

 

There is a lot more, but I will leave you for now with this next one, I hope it inspires you as much as it has inspired me.

On the Gift-Giving Virtue:

1

When Zarathustra had said farewell to the town to which his heart was attached, and which was named The Motley Cow, many who called themsleves his disciples followed him and escorted him.  Thus they came to a crossroads; then Zarathustra told them that he now wanted to walk alone, for he liked to walk alone.  His disciples gave him as a farewell present a staff with a golden handle on which a serpent coiled around the sun.  Zarathustra was delighted with the staff and leaned on it; then he spoke thus to his disciples:

Tell me: how did gold attain the highest value?  Because it is uncommon and useless and gleaming and gentle in its splendor; it always gives itself.  Only as the image of the highest virtue did gold attain the highest value.  Goldlike gleam of the eyes of the giver.  Golden splendor makes peace between moon and sun.  Uncommon is the highest virtue and useless; it is  gleaming and gentle in its splendor: a gift-giving virtue is the highest virtue.

Verily, I have found you out, my disciples: you strive, as I do, for the gift-giving virtue.  What would you have in common with cats and wolves?  This is your thirst: to become sacrifices and gifts yourselves; and that is why you thirst to pile up all the riches in your soul.  Insatiably your soul strives for treasures and gems, because your virtue is insatiable in wanting to give.  You force all things to and into yourself that they may flow back out of your well as the gifts of your love.  Verily, such a gift-giving love must approach all values as a robber; but whole and holy I call this selfishness.

There is also another selfishness, an all-too-poor and hungry one that always wants to steal--the selfishness of the sick: sick selfishness.  With the eyes of a thief it looks at everything splendid; with the greed of hunger it sizes up those who have much to eat; and always it sneaks around the table of those who give.  Sickness speaks out of such craving and invisible degeneration; the theievish greed of this selfishness speaks of a diseased body.

Tell me, my brothers: what do we consider bad and worst of all?  Is it not degeneration?  And it is degeneration that we always infer where the gift-giving soul is lacking.  Upward goes our way, from genus to overgenus.   But we shudder at the degenerate sense which says, "Everything for me."  Upward flies our sense: thus it is a parable of our body, a parable of elevation.  Parables of such elevations are the names of the virtues.

Thus the body goes through history, becoming and fighting.  And the spirit--what is that to the body?  The heald of its fights and victories, companion and echo.

All names of good and evil are parables: they do not define, they merely hint.  A fool is he who wants knowledge of them!

Watch for every hour, my brothers, in which your spirit wants to speak in parables: there lies the origin of your virtue.  There your body is elevated and resurrected; with its rapture it delights the spirit so that it turns creator and esteemer and lover and benefactor of all things.

When your heart flows broad and full like a river, a blessing and a danger to those living near: there is the origin of your virtue.

When you are above praise and blame, and your will wants to command all things, like a lover's will: there is the origin of your virtue.

When you despise the agreeable and the soft bed and cannot bed yourself far enough from the soft: there is the origin of your virtue.

When you will with a single will and you call this cessation of all need "necessity": there is the origin of your virtue.

Verily, a new good and evil is she.  Verily, a new deep murmur and the voice of a new well!

Power is she, this new virtue; a dominant thought is she, and around her a wise soul: a golden sun, and around it the serpent of knowledge.

2

Here Zarathustra fell silent for a while and looked lovingly at his disciples.  Then he continued to speak thus, and the tone of his voice had changed:

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue.  Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth.  Thus I beg and beseech you.  Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls.  Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away.  Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do--back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning.

In a hundred ways, thus far, have spirit as well as virtue flown away and made mistakes.  Alas, all this delusion and all these mistakes still dwell in our body: they have there become body and will.

In a hundred ways, thus far, spirit as well as virtue has tried and erred.  Indeed, an experiment was man.  Alas, much ignorance and error have become body within us.

Not only the reason of millenia, but their madness too, breaks out in us.  It is dangerous to be an heir.  Still we fight step by step with the giant, accident; and over the whole of humanity there has ruled so far only nonsense--no sense.

Let your spirit and your virtue serve the sense of the earth, my brothers; and let the value of all things be posited newly by you.  For that shall you be fighters!  For that shall you be creators!

With knowledge, the body purifies itself; making experiments with knowledge, it elevates itself; in the lover of knowledge all instincts become holy; in the elevated, the soul becomes gay.

Physician, help yourself: thus you help your patient too.  Let this be his best help that he may behold with his eyes the man who heals himself.

There are a thousand paths that have never yet been trodden--a thousand healths and hidden isles of life.  Even now, man and man's' earth are unexhausted and undiscovered.

Wake and listen, that you are lonely!  From the future come winds with secret wing-beats; and good tidings are proclaimed to delicate ears.  You that are lonely today, you that are withdrawing, you shall one day be the people: out of you, who have chosen yourselves, there shall grow a chosen people--and out of them, the overman.  Verily, the earth shall yet become a site of recovery.  And even now a new fragrance surrounds it, bringing salvation--and a new hope.

3

When Zarathustra had said these words he became silent, like one who has not yet said his last word; long he weighed his staff in his hand, doubtfully.  At last he spoke thus, and the tone of his voice had changed.

Now I go alone, my disciples.  You too go now, alone.  Thus I want it.  Verily, I counsel you: go away from me and resist Zarathustra!  And even better: be ashamed of him!  Perhaps he deceived you.

The man of knowledge must not only love his enemies, he must also be able to hate his friends.

One repays a teacher badly if one always remains nothing but a pupil  And why do you not want to pluck at my wreath?

You revere me; but what if your revence tumbles one day?  Beware lest a statue slay you.

You say you believe in Zarathustra?  But what matters Zarathustra?   You are my believers--but what matter all believers?  You had not yet sought yourselves: and you found me.  Thus do all believers; therefore all faith amounts to so little.

Now I bid you lose me and find yourselves; and only when you have all denied me will I return to you.

Verily, my brothers, with different eyes shall I then seek my lost ones; with a different love shall I then love you.

And once again you shall become my friends and the children of a single hope--and then shall I be with you the third time, that I may celebrate the great noon with you.

And that is the great noon when man stands in the middle of his way between beast and overman and celebrates his way to the evening as his highest hope: for it is the way to a new morning.

Then will he who goes under bless himself for being the one who goes over and beyond; and the sun of his knowledge will stand at high noon for him.

"Dead are all gods: now we want the overman to live"--on that great noon, let this be our last will.

Thus spoke Zarathustra

skepsis

I forgot to add the article I was referring to..  unfortunately it is not in the commons, which upsets me considerably, preventing me from readint it also. 

Anyway here it is, in case anyone has access:

"Why We Can Still Be Nietzscheans" - Lawrence J. Hatab

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20717794?uid=3739448&uid=2129&uid=...

skepsis

just one final note for the moment, on Nietzsche's supposed "disgust" at the "herd."---

contempt is a major theme in Nietzsche's work, and it is important to note that the feeling of contempt "takes wing" through love.  love, which, as he might say elsewhere, is "beyond good and evil."

the following is a wonderful passage on this topic.  I hope it helps people to understand what he means by contempt (disgust), and I hope you notice here we're dealing with Zarathustra's Ape, an imposter who Zarathustra says will make it difficult to know who Zarathustra is.

LI. ON PASSING-BY. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra)

Thus slowly wandering through many peoples and divers cities, did Zarathustra return by round-about roads to his mountains and his cave. And behold, thereby came he unawares also to the gate of the GREAT CITY. Here, however, a foaming fool, with extended hands, sprang forward to him and stood in his way. It was the same fool whom the people called "the ape of Zarathustra:" for he had learned from him something of the expression and modulation of language, and perhaps liked also to borrow from the store of his wisdom. And the fool talked thus to Zarathustra:

O Zarathustra, here is the great city: here hast thou nothing to seek and everything to lose.

Why wouldst thou wade through this mire? Have pity upon thy foot! Spit rather on the gate of the city, and—turn back!

Here is the hell for anchorites' thoughts: here are great thoughts seethed alive and boiled small.

Here do all great sentiments decay: here may only rattle-boned sensations rattle!

Smellest thou not already the shambles and cookshops of the spirit? Steameth not this city with the fumes of slaughtered spirit?

Seest thou not the souls hanging like limp dirty rags?—And they make newspapers also out of these rags!

Hearest thou not how spirit hath here become a verbal game? Loathsome verbal swill doth it vomit forth!—And they make newspapers also out of this verbal swill.

They hound one another, and know not whither! They inflame one another, and know not why! They tinkle with their pinchbeck, they jingle with their gold.

They are cold, and seek warmth from distilled waters: they are inflamed, and seek coolness from frozen spirits; they are all sick and sore through public opinion.

All lusts and vices are here at home; but here there are also the virtuous; there is much appointable appointed virtue:—

Much appointable virtue with scribe-fingers, and hardy sitting-flesh and waiting-flesh, blessed with small breast-stars, and padded, haunchless daughters.

There is here also much piety, and much faithful spittle-licking and spittle-backing, before the God of Hosts.

"From on high," drippeth the star, and the gracious spittle; for the high, longeth every starless bosom.

The moon hath its court, and the court hath its moon-calves: unto all, however, that cometh from the court do the mendicant people pray, and all appointable mendicant virtues.

"I serve, thou servest, we serve"—so prayeth all appointable virtue to the prince: that the merited star may at last stick on the slender breast!

But the moon still revolveth around all that is earthly: so revolveth also the prince around what is earthliest of all—that, however, is the gold of the shopman.

The God of the Hosts of war is not the God of the golden bar; the prince proposeth, but the shopman—disposeth!

By all that is luminous and strong and good in thee, O Zarathustra! Spit on this city of shopmen and return back!

Here floweth all blood putridly and tepidly and frothily through all veins: spit on the great city, which is the great slum where all the scum frotheth together!

Spit on the city of compressed souls and slender breasts, of pointed eyes and sticky fingers—

—On the city of the obtrusive, the brazen-faced, the pen-demagogues and tongue-demagogues, the overheated ambitious:—

Where everything maimed, ill-famed, lustful, untrustful, over-mellow, sickly-yellow and seditious, festereth pernicious:—

—Spit on the great city and turn back!—

Here, however, did Zarathustra interrupt the foaming fool, and shut his mouth.—

Stop this at once! called out Zarathustra, long have thy speech and thy species disgusted me!

Why didst thou live so long by the swamp, that thou thyself hadst to become a frog and a toad?

Floweth there not a tainted, frothy, swamp-blood in thine own veins, when thou hast thus learned to croak and revile?

Why wentest thou not into the forest? Or why didst thou not till the ground? Is the sea not full of green islands?

I despise thy contempt; and when thou warnedst me—why didst thou not warn thyself?

Out of love alone shall my contempt and my warning bird take wing; but not out of the swamp!—

They call thee mine ape, thou foaming fool: but I call thee my grunting-pig,—by thy grunting, thou spoilest even my praise of folly.

What was it that first made thee grunt? Because no one sufficiently FLATTERED thee:—therefore didst thou seat thyself beside this filth, that thou mightest have cause for much grunting,—

—That thou mightest have cause for much VENGEANCE! For vengeance, thou vain fool, is all thy foaming; I have divined thee well!

But thy fools'-word injureth ME, even when thou art right! And even if Zarathustra's word WERE a hundred times justified, thou wouldst ever—DO wrong with my word!

Thus spake Zarathustra. Then did he look on the great city and sighed, and was long silent. At last he spake thus:

I loathe also this great city, and not only this fool. Here and there— there is nothing to better, nothing to worsen.

Woe to this great city!—And I would that I already saw the pillar of fire in which it will be consumed!

For such pillars of fire must precede the great noontide. But this hath its time and its own fate.—

This precept, however, give I unto thee, in parting, thou fool: Where one can no longer love, there should one—PASS BY!—

Thus spake Zarathustra, and passed by the fool and the great city.


 

Slumberjack

Nietzsche and anti-Semitism were bandied about much earlier in this thread. Whatever uses the National Socialist state made of his work; - which incidentally and glaringly illustrates the problem of locating an answer to the question of 'where thought originates from,' - practically anyone should find it curious that he distanced himself from the anti-Semites of his era precisely because of it, which included the Wagners. Obviously many will come away from Nietzsche with varying interpretations.  His work was barely understood by contemporaries when explained in person.  I like to think that part of his work expanded greatly upon Kant's earlier question of "what is enlightenment," with subsequent inquiries regarding "how would things differ?" What could a subject produce, once in power, that hadn't been produced earlier, in isolation from the instinctive? The trajectory of this line of thought from Kant, to Nietzsche, Camus, Foucault, Deleuze and Guattari; even to Agamben; appear to have provided some rather stark and illuminating extrapolations along the way.

Slumberjack

DaveW wrote:
however, babble still not ready for a Heidegger thread, I think;

There does appear to be a particular stench about him as some have described it, that would necessarily have to be first overcome.  I'm not exactly certain myself if they were being unkind.  But then Foucault invested himself a little too much with the Iranian Revolution by many estimates.  One might even say that Jesus' whipping of the money changers went a little too far, which could very well form part of the basis for a post-Capitalist world if things got carried away.

DaveW

yes there is,

but a writer like Ezra Pound was an unrepentant Fascist, and his poetry has nothing to do with that political choice; 2 different things...

DaveW

good points; I just scrolled quickly through the political stuff at the top of the thread, useless for understanding a thinker of this depth and acuity;

sadly, it was only late in life that Nietzsche read Dostoyevsky, I would have loved to read more of the former on the latter.

however, babble still not ready for a Heidegger thread, I think;Surprised

 his Sein und Zeit was photocopied by Sartre for his Being and Nothingness, and the basic dasein postulate informs that whole school; but public discussions of MH's thinking (as opposed to his awful politics)  degenerate quickly, for obvious reasons

(Sartre popularized Heidegger and Husserl, introducing H&H to the mass reading public, through what B. Russell termed "a mix of French pornography and German metaphysics")

now back to our regularly programmed  Nietzsche thread ...

 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Quote:
a writer like Ezra Pound was an unrepentant Fascist, and his poetry has nothing to do with that political choice; 2 different things.

Neither of these statements is true. He was a Fascist, but not an unrepetant fascist (exactly). And his poetry very much has to do with his politics.

DaveW

well, after being jailed by the GIs, he hummed and hawed and backtracked?, no free will involved there...

as for his poetry, tell us more

Google knows everything?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110213135304AAu9mSV

 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Heh. Well, for one thing, Pound was mentally ill for the last 12 years of his life making his "unrepetant fascism" rather difficult to pin down. Second, there's a difference between endorsing Mussolini and being a dyed-in-the-wool fascist. Many of the Italian people "endorsed" Mussolini (of course they didn't travel from America to do it). A lot of work has been done distinguishing actual Italian Fascism from the idea of fascism Pound had in his head. I'm not saying that Pound didn't talk up fascism a lot, only that his relationship to it is rather complicated.

As for his poetry, that link shows how his Cantos have some content which would support the political architecture of fascism--anti-Semitism, for example. His work also highlights other cultural tropes which dovetail nicely with fascism, like militarization, hypermasculinity, homophobia. His work with fellow Fascist and anti-Semite Wyndham Lewis on Blast! is the clearest example of those. But for my money, the soundest connection of Pound's poetry to his politics is in its form. In fact, this connects to the above point because Pound's romanticized idea of fascism was actually based on aesthetics and not political economy. I'd go on, but I wouldn't want to put the internet to sleep. 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

With all my blather on Pound and fascism I neglected to welcome skepsis to babble! skepsis! Welcome! To babble!

And thanks for that interesting stuff on Nietzsche, and for bumping this old thread. I've downloaded that article you linked to and put it in a public dropbox folder. You can find it here if you want to get a copy:

Prospects for a Democratic Agon: Why We Can Still Be Nietzscheans -- Lawrence J. Hatab, Journal of Nietzschean Studies 24 (2002)

skepsis

Hey Slumberjack,

It's a shame I don't remember much from Kant's "What is Enlightenment," but I'm familiar with Nietzsche's influence on Camus, Foucault, Deleuze, Guattari, and others.   I've heard it said that Nietzsche's philosophy is a kind of labyrinth, and we will see ourselves in it, our own views reflected in that hall of mirrors.  The worst, of course, was the appropriation of him by reactionary powers with very little care for the whole body of his work. 

Slumberjack wrote:

Nietzsche and anti-Semitism were bandied about much earlier in this thread. Whatever uses the National Socialist state made of his work; - which incidentally and glaringly illustrates the problem of locating an answer to the question of 'where thought originates from,' - practically anyone should find it curious that he distanced himself from the anti-Semites of his era precisely because of it, which included the Wagners. Obviously many will come away from Nietzsche with varying interpretations.  His work was barely understood by contemporaries when explained in person.  I like to think that part of his work expanded greatly upon Kant's earlier question of "what is enlightenment," with subsequent inquiries regarding "how would things differ?" What could a subject produce, once in power, that hadn't been produced earlier, in isolation from the instinctive? The trajectory of this line of thought from Kant, to Nietzsche, Camus, Foucault, Deleuze and Guattari; even to Agamben; appear to have provided some rather stark and illuminating extrapolations along the way.

skepsis

I took a course in phenomenology at the U of T, and we read some Husserl, Heidegger, and Sartre, among others-- and I have to say I was fairly spell-bound by Heidegger's Being and Time--  and yet, his treatment of Husserl, even recommending to the government that he be deprived of his post because he's Jewish-- all when "authenticity" was such a big issue for him, this makes it very hard to take him seriously afterwards for me.  Also, note Jaspers' mention of him, who studied under him for example, when he says that studying with him was like being initiated into a kind of religion (I couldn't find the reference, Lawrence Lampert's Leo Strauss and Nietzsche, I hope I haven't lost this amazing book..)  In any event, I welcome a thread on Heidegger, whenever that may be.   I should brush up on him, really.

 

DaveW wrote:

good points; I just scrolled quickly through the political stuff at the top of the thread, useless for understanding a thinker of this depth and acuity;

sadly, it was only late in life that Nietzsche read Dostoyevsky, I would have loved to read more of the former on the latter.

however, babble still not ready for a Heidegger thread, I think;Surprised

 his Sein und Zeit was photocopied by Sartre for his Being and Nothingness, and the basic dasein postulate informs that whole school; but public discussions of MH's thinking (as opposed to his awful politics)  degenerate quickly, for obvious reasons

(Sartre popularized Heidegger and Husserl, introducing H&H to the mass reading public, through what B. Russell termed "a mix of French pornography and German metaphysics")

now back to our regularly programmed  Nietzsche thread ...

 

 

skepsis

Slumberjack wrote:

One might even say that Jesus' whipping of the money changers went a little too far, which could very well form part of the basis for a post-Capitalist world if things got carried away.

 

But would it really be so bad?   Given it were possible, and an alternative was given.

 

skepsis

Slumberjack wrote:

One might even say that Jesus' whipping of the money changers went a little too far, which could very well form part of the basis for a post-Capitalist world if things got carried away.

 

But would it really be so bad?   Given it were possible, and an alternative was given.

 

skepsis

Catchfire wrote:

With all my blather on Pound and fascism I neglected to welcome skepsis to babble! skepsis! Welcome! To babble!

And thanks for that interesting stuff on Nietzsche, and for bumping this old thread. I've downloaded that article you linked to and put it in a public dropbox folder. You can find it here if you want to get a copy:

Prospects for a Democratic Agon: Why We Can Still Be Nietzscheans -- Lawrence J. Hatab, Journal of Nietzschean Studies 24 (2002)

Thanks Catchfire!

It's doubly nice to be in the company of Nietzsche readers, and who are welcoming.  Triply nice, to have this article available as well!  (Is "triply" a word?)

On a completely different note, on alleged charges of anti-semitism, I cite Human-All-too-Human, where Nietzsche praises Judaism for having given us "the noblest human" (Christ), "the purest sage" (Spinoza), "the mighiest book" (Bible), and "the most effective moral code in the world."

One could compare this, perhaps, to the recent stance of the German poet Gunter Grass who condemns the Israeli government, but has nothing against the Jews as a group of people.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/04/2012498535088416.html

You can find his poem here (translated):

http://youtu.be/8kFs_-crK30

 

Slumberjack

skepsis wrote:
But would it really be so bad? Given it were possible, and an alternative was given.

It could be. The problem always seems to begin with establishing new standards, and then a few more, followed eventually in our careless and frenzied moments by extrajudical provisions for special cases. Maybe if we could start off by just using felt on our whips.

skepsis

 

Slumberjack wrote:
skepsis wrote:
But would it really be so bad? Given it were possible, and an alternative was given.
It could be. The problem always seems to begin with establishing new standards, and then a few more, followed eventually in our careless and frenzied moments by extrajudical provisions for special cases. Maybe if we could start off by just using felt on our whips.

 

lol

reminds me of the fact that I had a whip last Hallowe'en.  and a moustache to boot.  :)  I suspect Lou-Andreas Salome's whip was not of the felt kind. 

ps--not that this should matter, but I did not use the whip.  lol  was just a Hallowe'en accessory. (it was the first Hallowe'en in, maybe 20 years, I'd participated in)

 

 

to get more serious about this though, I've always had a soft spot for Communism in some sense, not Stalinism or Maoism per se, but Zizek and Badiou have both been very influential for me lately.  the following is an excellent video based on the themes of Zizek's latest book, as far as I'm aware, on why he thinks capitalism will eventually be succeeded. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8LPn4irao

another important influence in this regard is Godard's last work, "Film Socialism."  I realize I'm quite off topic, but consider that all of the people we've been dealing with in this thread (with the exception of maybe Kant) have been staunchly against capitalism.  Even Pound, according to his only authorized biographer, Eustace Mullins, sought for the reason for the war, and found it in the financial institutions that "set them up" for it through economic warfare, as in the Jekyll Island incident, the purported place where the plan for the Federal Reserve was drafted.  I like that Badiou and Zizek agree that "Communism" is primarily the name given to the problem coming from the fatal flaws inherent in capitalism.  I doubt they have whips ready, nor even a system yet.  I like that they're paying attention to recent happenings though in order to try to formulate some plan.  I'm pretty sure my leanings are social-democratic at the moment.  No promise I won't turn to fascism if things get too difficult as a social-democrat though!  ^_^

http://www.jekyllexperience.com/site/539681/page/887302

 

DaveW

skepsis wrote:

I took a course in phenomenology at the U of T, and we read some Husserl, Heidegger, and Sartre, among others-- and I have to say I was fairly spell-bound by Heidegger's Being and Time--  and yet, his treatment of Husserl, even recommending to the government that he be deprived of his post because he's Jewish-- all when "authenticity" was such a big issue for him, this makes it very hard to take him seriously afterwards for me.  Also, note Jaspers' mention of him, who studied under him for example, when he says that studying with him was like being initiated into a kind of religion (I couldn't find the reference, Lawrence Lampert's Leo Strauss and Nietzsche, I hope I haven't lost this amazing book..)  In any event, I welcome a thread on Heidegger, whenever that may be.   I should brush up on him, really.

 

DaveW wrote:

Wesen ist was Gewesen ist: Hegel

yes, let's have a Heidegger thread some day, although it is sure to be bogged down in non-philosophy at some point; maybe by introdcuing MH through his great pupil/publicist Sartre,  whose Marxist credentials are impeccable, we could avoid obvious political fallacies

btw, if you were at UofT, do you know if Emile Fackenheim taught Heideggger?: a great Jewish scholar and also student of German phenomenology, so it can be done ...

 

skepsis

 

DaveW wrote:

 

yes, let's have a Heidegger thread some day, although it is sure to be bogged down in non-philosophy at some point; maybe by introdcuing MH through his great pupil/publicist Sartre,  whose Marxist credentials are impeccable, we could avoid obvious political fallacies

btw, if you were at UofT, do you know if Emile Fackenheim taught Heideggger?: a great Jewish scholar and also student of German phenomenology, so it can be done ...

 

 

Oh, it's been about a decade now for me.  But give me some readings to do, I'd be definitely interested in doing it all over again.

The name Fackenheim somehow rings a bell, but I'm sure it was a grad student who taught the course during the summer time, a really good guy actually.  Wish I remembered his name though.  In fact, I think one of my roommates who was obsessed about Heidegger took that course with Emile. Might have been about 1997.