Aliens Land! II

More from Billy Cox

Yeah, OK, but we've still got nukes

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Keep yer OVNI research south of the border, amigos, and we'll all get along just fine. - Uncle Sam

The glasnost is starting to fill in South America thanks to governments of: Brazil, Ecuador, Chile and Peru.

Yeah those South American scientists are second rate. Trust in Uncle Whiskers always.

We need not look to the stars to wonder if Darwin's evolution has worked elsewhere. We already understand that our neighbors just nextdoor to us were superior to hundreds of government politicians and lawyers in Ottawa since approximately CUSFTA and NAFTA. They made our fearless leaders appear inferior and servile in every way.

And plus they have nuclear weapons. It's very humbling when you think about it.

Slumberjack wrote:

I'm sure it's all just a case of them saying 'you think you got shit that can fly around, get a load of this.' Didn't medieval people bring us the various belief systems we're so familiar with today, and aren't they still at it, to the point where some of us insist that they stop bringing us their shit?

I don't think it's a matter of one-upmanship on the part of the leprechauns, no. If they wanted to impress us with their aeronautical feats, they already achieved that end some time ago according to a host of U.S. and international air force officials, commercial airline pilots, and many ordinary people who've seen UFO's. The leprechauns could charge admission and give their own air shows, and they would probably become superrich by their air shows alone.

And yet because these visitors from wherever in the universe they may originate haven't seized commerical advantage of the situation, therefore they can't exist? Does that sum-up our curiosity on the matter in a nutshell? Their galactic mission is to impress the locals?

Slumberjack wrote:

We should probably consult with the historical and present religious record, hell, even political movements, before we begin tackling the question of how easy it is for masses of people to be completely fooled by the flimsiest propositions

Absolutely. The Church bought themselves another three centuries of quality denialism by merely refusing to look through Galileo's telescope. And the Vatican's astronomer today is much more open minded about things extraterrestrial than, say, Pope Gregory IX. In this post Enlightement period, even the Catholic Church supports Darwin's theory of evolution and what is now viewed as a higher than before likelihood for life having proliferated on other planets in Darwinian manner.

But centuries ago, one could be ruthlessly mocked by the Church's inquisitors and their lackeys for challenging their narrow minded view of the world as centre of the universe and man as God's most important creation. The punishment for heresy was often death or perhaps just loss in some significant way so as to punish the bad behaviour.

Thank goodness there are no such inquisitional powers today. Just ask Omar Khadr and Maher Arar. And Khadr's father and Khalid Sheik Mohammed were once with us in the fight for freedom and democracy in Central Asia. And now KSM will be given "a trial" by military inquisition. Surely we've advanced in matters of scientific inquiry since Pope Greg IX. And we have, no doubt about it. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, just ask Canadian scientists and their designated government minders under Harper.

And there have been government scientists, air force officials and commercial airline pilots ostracized for reporting having seen things in the sky. Threats of grounding, job loss and and loss of pensions and benefits are powerful reminders for those challenging the imperialist world view and imperialist technological superiority. And the current world view is that nothing is superior to the military might of man and supreme rulers of the universe on Wall Street, Bay Street and financial district in London. Nothing! It was the same idea in Roman times - challenge the powers that be an be put to death. Crucifixion was nothing but a demonstration as to: this is what happens when one challenges the authority of a vicious empire. Placing severed heads on pikes to ward off enemies of power is old hat. Today the threats are more subtle but effective nonetheless.
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Slumberjack wrote:

I think there was once something put forward which might apply here, that went something like "one doesn't need to be Professor of Leprechaunology to argue on behalf of the non-existence of Leprechauns." Maybe that's the sort of point debunkerists are trying to make.

Are you mocking me? Because if so, I fully understand no sweat. I think you're a good guy, SJ. And thanks for considering this line of inquiry so totally off-topic from socially progressive issues babble is more renowned for.

I believe Einstein said we couldn't communicate faster than the speed of light. If it can be proven that particles can travel faster than that, then Einstein would say we can't communicate faster than the new speed. Paul Durac theorized about a neutrino universe where particles are neither negative nor positive. I'm not sure how it could be possible, but speed of thought comes in to play with Durac's neutrino universe. Information could be transmitted anywhere in the universe in zero time.

Scientists say it will be difficult to prove Einstein wrong with today's technology. We are masters of our own tools since the stone age. As Darwinian theory goes, it's just a matter of time before we evolve through progressive phases of human development and bringing more advanced technologies. I think Sagan's commentary on Drake's equation is hopeful for discovering life out there. As some ufologists have said, discovery of technically advanced extraterrestrial life would be the story of the millenium. As Sagan says, what if technically advanced civilizations eventually outgrow their predatory phases of human development? What if just one percent of technical civilizations do not destroy themselves as scientists think we will do and perhaps are doing slowly but surely now? What if one percent of estimated intelligent life in just this galaxy survives their own technological adolescence? What Sagan implied is mind boggling. There could be millions of advanced civilizations in just our own galaxy. Millions. The Milky Way could be teeming with technically advanced civilizations. I think that's very hopeful.

Latest on pilot sightings and NARCAP Sometimes pilots get it right

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 There's an illuminating NASA recap, posted online, on the history behind the verification of electrical discharges in the upper atmosphere, activity known broadly as sprites. Though these weird and transient optical flashes had been seen for decades by pilots, mainstream science was unmoved until 1989, when space shuttle cameras began documenting this worldwide phenomenon.

All kinds of professionals are trained in the scientific method. Why would anyone ridicule pilots, nurses, doctors, engineers, or even scientists themselves for speaking out on serious issues? What's up with that?

Slumberjack wrote:

 I'm willing to afford the notion of alien visitations from distant solar systems slightly more of a probability ranking than the concept of a supernatural creator of the universe.

That's fine. But wouldn't the discovery of visitors from distant solar systems rank up there with the above average and even above natural? If it was possible for the Wright bros to have performed an air show for, say, the first humans, homo erectus, what might early man have thought about seeing the Kitty Hawk land on the ground and a person inside it step on to the ground? Would they have been very impressed with future man enough to believe he is master of the first heaven, the air, and even think Orville or Wilbur to be god-like?

What if, as Carl Sagan and others posited, that there might be technically advanced civilizations that are much older than our own? What else might they have mastered in thousands or even millions of years before us? What if in addition to being capable of interstellar travel, there are civilizations that conquered mortality a long, long time ago? Time travel? Inter-dimensional travel? Would that short list of technical abilities begin to satisfy our requirements for god status?

And as for the vast distances, some scientists have posited that the premise for Star Trek - a Starship enterprise housing all those scientists and engineers and going where no man has gone before - is probably not the most efficient way of exploring galaxies. In preparing to write his short story, The Sentinel, Arthur Clarke asked other scientists how advanced civilizations might explore space. He discovered that the best way would be to send self-replicating robots or Von Neumann probes. Could UFO's be something similar? Have they come from somwhere not so distant? Are the designers of UFO's still alive or are they extinct a long time? Are they piloted by highly intelligent synthetic organisms capable of exploration and doing science? Perhaps UFO's which people see sometimes are not trying to impress anyone so much as satisfying their own curiosity. Perhaps they are designed to spot and observe other advanced civilizations and are merely recording what they see. Perhaps their prime directive is to do no harm. 

There is a myth told and retold by some UFO enthusiasts that the original 1951 Hollywood movie, The Day the Earth Stood Still, was really a documentary film depicting actual events based loosely on ... the Roswell incident? Is Roswell at the heart of all the insanity of the National Security Act signed behind closed doors in 1947-48? Is Roswell the mother of all myths driving other myths, like Majectic and not-so hard to believe creation of the NSA, CIA, and Joint Chiefs of Staff? The secretive DoD and Pentagon capitalism with its own multiple layers of need-to-know secrecy duplicated in private sector military-industrial complex? 

 I think we would demand proof before considering it in the same way that scientists in the movie demanded proof of Klaatu and his robot Gort. Day the Earth, like 2001:A Space Odyssey, is another film based on a short story entitled Farewell to the Master. Hollywood producers decided that the ending of Farewell to the Master would be too shocking for film audiences then and so made the human-like character Klaatu(actor Michael Rennie) Gort's master. Who would ever dream that an advanced civilization could be succeeded by its own more capable creation? Not so far fetched according to scientists today.

In any event, what some Americans are demanding today is a new era of transparency and accountability in Washington. Whatever the truth is, Americans know full well that government secrecy is generally found to be incompatibile with democracy. The glasnost is half full according to many Americans themselves.

I think belief is a matter of where we find ourselves and making the connection to where we wish to be. We may become god-like ourselves in time, and perhaps not. Science says that evolution and technological advancement happen over time.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - Arthur Clarke

Slumberjack wrote:

We'd likely be dealing today with a religion where Sunday service takes place aboard a cargo plane or something, and in the US their currency might read 'in Wilbur we trust.'

Yes, and in various parts of New Guinea, they have great reverence for the men in flying machines. See cargo cult. Some build straw replicas of the aerial chariots dropping gifts of cargo filled with food and trinkets from the gods.

Slumberjack wrote:

Radio waves producing a hint of our existence from among the incalculable quantities of particles and dust and asteroids and planets between us and them, travelling through space at the speed of light, unimpeded by radiation belts and ion storms and what not, would take 50 light years to reach this advanced civilization sitting out there at the 50 light year distance from Earth.

I see what you mean. And telecommunications would surely be the mark of an advanced civilization. Surely they will have mastered radio waves at some point. But observe how long we have used powerful radio transmissions sometime later and after Marconi. Okay, the first powerful radio transmissions were when? In the 1930s or so. And today we are transitioning away from 10K+ watt transmitters toward digital communications and fiber optics and satellite links to backhaul microwave, etc. IOW's the planet earth is about to become relatively silent by comparison. Therefore, earth will have been a noisy planet for only a relatively brief amount of time. A tiny slice of time in which to be noticed. Perhaps all our powerful radio transmissions were never noticed. And perhaps they have been intercepted.

Michio Kaku has proposed some interesting ideas about possible ET telecommunications. He says for one thing, SETI is looking at a narrow band of the spectrum - the frequencies of hydrogen. He likens SETI's search to an innebriated person who has lost his keys. The person decides to look only near the street lamp, because that's where the street is illuminated. But what if the keys are not in the area illuminated by the street lamp?

And what ET is communicating like our own internet works with messages divided up into packets of digitized information and purposely routed around large objects, stars, asteroid belts, planets and magnetic storms? What if we are in the middle of a twelve lane information highway and incapable of realizing it? And then there is the issue of encryption. There have been instances of our species baffling each other's attempts at decryption.

Slumberjack wrote:

If they were of a mind to physically investigate the source of those radio waves that may indeed have reached them by now, and had the capability themselves of travelling at light speed, equal to roughly 1,141 billion kilometres per hour, then you're definitely within the realm of possibility to speculate that we may well indeed be capturing them on digital camcorders and cell phone videos by now if they begun their journey straight away.

I think the first powerful radio communications escaping earth will have included London's broadcast of Mickey Mouse, which apparently was interrupted for the announcement that WW II had started. Hitler's speech to start the summer Olympics was broadcast in 1936. He said something about the torch must never be allowed to flame-out because it represents peace and civility between nations. I think it would become obvious to ET's that we are a planet ruled by terrible liars at some point. Some of our own scientists are saying it might be better to listen than to broadcast.

Slumberjack wrote:

Such an advanced civilization would likely know much about us already before arrival. If they're not disposed to announcing their presence, and knowing all the talk we have going on down here about alien abductions and spaceships, and being superior in every way to us, just what the hell are they doing up there, having a laugh at our expense?

I'm thinking 2001:A Space Odyssey. What if their prime directive is merely to keep an eye on us and report back to home planet or even "the federation" the exact moment that we make a serious attempt to leave this planet, and-or become a type I or II civilization capable of interstellar travel? That would be an important thing for even ourselves to know according to scientists themselves. It would mean that someone is no longer a non-threatening primitive species stuck on our own planet. Imagine hearing the squawking oratories of an alien Hitler or atomic weapons testing on another planet. It could be frightening to more advanced and more peaceful civilizations with prime directives to preserve the galactic order of things, or whatever their purpose may be.

Ufologists have a saying about hard proof of UFO's wrt artefactual evidence that I can't recall. But it goes something like, if there is physical alien technology here on earth, then it is hidden. If it is hidden, someone is in possession of it. If someone possesses such evidence, it is surely in the hands of government. If government possesses it, then it remains hidden from public knowledge.

And so why would governments keep secrets? Is there any evidence for governments having maintained secrecy over decades at a time? Have governments lied to or misled the public before? The answer is yes on both counts.

I think anarchists can appreciate our mistrust of governments in general.

Hey that's cool. Thanks LTJ!

Slumberjack wrote:

Fidel wrote:

And so why would governments keep secrets? Is there any evidence for governments having maintained secrecy over decades at a time? Have governments lied to or misled the public before? The answer is yes on both counts.

I think anarchists can appreciate our mistrust of governments in general.

They might appreciate that it makes no sense to replace one occultist paradigm, be it politics or religion; both of which requiring their respective flocks to take on faith the slim to nil evidence of authenticity typically on offer; with yet another of an all too familiar vein.

Ah! But there is a wide range of evidence. Take Roswell for instance. The U.S. Government people whom you, a self-described anarchist, are saying operate on the basis of logic released several different accounts to the public as to what happened near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. Why would they change their stories several times since 1947 if, as you suggest, that the U.S. Government and Air Force prime directive is to not replace one occultist paradigm with another? What they did was add fuel to the fire by telling stories that conflict with each of the ones before it. That leads some of us to believe that the U.S. Government was deliberately lying to the public. It really does seem as if they were attempting to replace one paradigm with another and a flimsy U.S. Government version at that.

Odds of finding alien life boosted by billions of habitable worlds

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A new estimate of the number of habitable planets orbiting the most common type of stars in our galaxy could have huge consequences for the search for life.

According to a recent study, tens of billions of planets around red dwarfs are likely capable of containing liquid water, dramatically increasing the potential to find signs of life somewhere other than Earth.

Red dwarfs are stars that are fainter, cooler and less massive than the sun. These stars, which typically also live longer than Class G stars like the sun, are thought to make up about 80 percent of the stars in the Milky Way, astronomers have said.

Who knows what has come from the galaxy? Who knows what lurks in the sky? Beyond God. Watch those around you. For who knows what today, tonight, or tomorrow will bring. - VO narration from John Carpenter's, "The Thing"

I've seen that movie, Slaughterhouse Five. Good one. Sadly I don't know much about Kurt Vonnegut Junior, tho. Surely the bombing of Dresden was a war crime. It must have had a profound effect on him the rest of his life. How could human beings do that to other human beings and vice versa? And just as importantly, will similar atrocities continue happening? It doesn't look good. Carl Sagan, I think, was an optimist compared to some of his colleagues. I think the good news is that even though atomic weaponry is still around, we haven't bombed each other to smithereens yet. That has to count for something. Perhaps mankind will survive technological adolescence and aspire to something far greater than colder warriors are capable of imagining. And the truth is that most people I know are capable of imagining a brighter future than the handful few monopolizing power.

Sounds good, Boom Boom. I will.

Chaos and Meaning: Vonnegut on Free Will Halstead

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In Breakfast of Champions, the theme of predictability is continued through biochemical reactions. All actions are governed by a series of chemical reactions which could be duplicated in a lab, and therefore do not provide an individual with any freedom of choice.

I'm out of my depth here, but I'd like to think there is free will. Darwin said that randomness is key to evolution, and so surely randomness is universal. And so if the universe evolves randomly, then surely free will exists in spite of or in parallel with deterministic forces. I think therefore I am. And if some elections are rigged, then it must be due to someone imposing a certain amount of will to affect an outcome. And because of scientific developments since the overthrow of Newtonian atomic theory, I believe I am something more than Bertrand Russell's 'accidental collocation of atoms.' Surely we are more than just sacks of neurons abiding by as yet unknown laws of a pre-determined universe. And we know from statistics that NATO countries tend to act against the will of the large majority of their citizens. Why would a relative handful few do so unless by some free will of their own? I believe in neither invisible hands of economic theory nor in predetermined outcomes. That is unless, of course, that all possible outcomes occur in parallel universes. And at which point I would then start believing in Alice and rabbit holes that run deep beneath our feet.

The cat: We're all mad here.

The Hatter: Why is a raven like a writing desk?

I think special relativity is displaced by only Einstein's General Relativity of 1915. In that case faster than light travel is feasible but only under certain few conditions. It would require the energy of a star and some maneuvering around known laws of thermodynamics, and we are thousands of years away from harnessing the the power of our own sun. Theoretically there can be civilizations with technical capabilities for harnessing not just the energy of their own star but of multiple stars. A type IV? or V? civilization might be capable of hyperdimensional travel from one universe to another. Perhaps the one percent of so far unexplained UFO sightings are Columbian ships from not thousands of light years away but travelers from hyperdimensional space. Perhaps HG Wells is an interdimensional time traveler from a companion universe relatively nearby. Perhaps the act of observing a UFO causes it to collapse into its dual nature wave form. Perhaps they are skipping across hyperdimensional boundaries as thin a few millimetres or as a fish might jump from water to the air above(Michio Kaku).  Who knows for sure? Not anyone I know.