Greece

abnormal wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Greeks don't have to pay if they don't want to.

Absolutely.  They have a choice.  Accept an externally imposed austerity package or accept austerity as result of being booted from the Euro.  The second option is going to be far worse.

No, being booted from the Euro will force Greece to use her own currency. Once this happens, she will have more control over monetary policy and will have more options to pull out of this mess.

The whole idea of the Euro is ridiculous anyways. There are far too many differences in culture, politics, and economics for a unified Europe to work anyways. This is not the first time it's been tried. It's been tried by the Romans, by Napolean, and by Hitler. Each time it failed miserably, and this current go around will be no different. If the EU project doesn't fail outright, it will certainly be constrained.

I know austerity isn't working out too well for Greece; but defaulting on all of thier sovereign debt, abandoning the Euro, introducing the drachma isn't a solution either.  

For the world, it's a repeat of the 2008 financial crisis, scaled up a little:
Greek bonds instantly hit zero, indeed, all assets any Euro bank carries is now set at about 1/3 it's value and falling. Overleveraged banks (and there are far to many of them) become insolvent, economic confidence tanks, Italian and Spanish soverign yields skyrocket, and Europe (and possibly the rest of the world) is faced with either: 1) Spending trillions of taxpayer dollars to, yet again, bailout these insolvent banks or 2) Letting these banks go under, finding that banks holding assets in these other banks are now ALSO insolvent, and then that banks will no longer lend to other banks and buisnesses, and then that scores of buisnesses fail and GDP crashes and unemployment skyrockets, and then and only then, spending more trillions of taxpayer money bailing out the banks to save the financial system.

Greece, meanwhile is so, so much worse off:
The drachma devalues to a level of 2:1 to make it's exports viable. Virtually every single bank becomes completely inviable as goes under as the value of the government bonds it holds hits zero. The Greek government is forced to print scores of drachmas and devalue its currency further to simply allow personal deposits and a banking system to simply exist in the country. This causes the drachma to devalue even further to about 4:1. Unemployment might go down, yes Greece's manufacturing sector boots up, but everyone's bank accounts and paycheques have been slashed by 70-80%. To put this in perspective, try budgeting for yourself when gas is $4.00/litre, milk is $20.00/gallon, a computer is $5000 and that Audi you've been eyeing is now the price of a Ferrari. 

The Greek banks are only held 'slvent' artificially anyway- even if there is no default and they stay with the euro.

As far as the banks and the financial system goes, there is little difference: euro or drachma, default or not.

No question that the short term with default, exit and drachma is going to be worse going. But the doom and gloom that it never stabilizes is just doom and gloom. There is a more predicatble end to it than there is with the endless agony of trying to stay in the euro.

The only way Greeks would be better off with the euro is if SYRIZA and partners can negotiate that default be accepted, allowing Greece to ease off on the austerity measures some, stay in the euro, and the fiscal rules on everyone for staying in the eurozone go out the door.

I can't see that is remotely possible- though it is what hardball negotiators will be looking for. Germany can afford to buy social peace in Greece [though I cant see Merkel and the CDU surving that]. But then Italy and Spain are next. And that just is not possible.

I think the new government's strategy will be hardball to get everything-back way off on austerity, while keeping the euro. But they will be able to do that because they are ready for what they are more likely to get: "we tried, but it looks like we're on our own."

abnormal wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Greeks don't have to pay if they don't want to.

Absolutely.  They have a choice.  Accept an externally imposed austerity package or accept austerity as result of being booted from the Euro.  The second option is going to be far worse.

How did austerity work for Latin Americans since the 1980's? 

The banks have no power to enforce anything. They have the power to bribe politicians, though. 

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Fidel wrote:

abnormal wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Greeks don't have to pay if they don't want to.

Absolutely.  They have a choice.  Accept an externally imposed austerity package or accept austerity as result of being booted from the Euro.  The second option is going to be far worse.

How did austerity work for Latin Americans since the 1980's? 

The banks have no power to enforce anything. They have the power to bribe politicians, though. 

There is a third choice - halt or drasticly slow austerity, help Greece crack down on tax evaders, write down a big chunk ... say 65% ... of Greece's sovereign debt, and figure out some way to get that country to actually start producing s**t.

I think some of the talk surrounds devaluing the Greek Euro. There is no such thing as a Greek Euro, and so they believe slashing Greek wages and pensions will bring Greece in-line with the most efficient and productive economies, like Germany. And we know how devaluing the currency worked for Germany paying reparations in the 1920s and 30s. 

They need someone other than a bunch of corrupt stooges in the pockets of banksters to come up with a real plan. Debts which can not be repaid, won't be. The very neoliberal EU and ECB are one big con job on Europeans and wannabe Euros. The neoliberal financial regime in Europe is even more dictatorial than anything they've tried here in the western hemisphere. And our own corrupts in Warshington and Ottawa are watching to see how it all turns out over there. We could be next if Euro oligarchs can pull it off. In that case we could say goodbye to any notion of democracy in the northern colony and U.S.

I'm under the impression that Greece was spending a comparable amount of GDP on social services compared to other Euro countries.  And that the problem was not the spending, but the tax collection.

abnormal, do you dispute this?

And once again, abnormal, even if the Greek government had, in fact, gone on a reckless spending spree, it's really inappropriate for you to act as if the PEOPLE of Greece are responsible for that spree and should have to be punished for it.  It's not as if every pensioner and social service recepient in the Hellenic Republic "has it coming", you know.   

I mean...if Canada were in the same situation, caused solely(as the Greek situation was caused solely)by the actions of the Canadian  government would you say that every Canadian, and especially every Canadian receiving any form of social assitance, should be collectively punished for what the politician( many of them didn't even vote for) happened to have done?

What the hell did the Greeks ever do to you, buddy?

Aristotleded24 wrote:

No, being booted from the Euro will force Greece to use her own currency. Once this happens, she will have more control over monetary policy and will have more options to pull out of this mess.

But if [b]other[/b] people won't give them free money anymore how are they going to pay for anything?  Increase taxes (in a culture where tax evasion is regarded as the norm)?  Cut expenditures (otherwise known as austerity)?  What are their options?

Greek Leftist Leader Alexis Tsipras: 'It's a war between People and Capitalism'

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31400.htm

"I don't believe in heroes or saviours,' says Alexis Tsipras, ' but I do believe in fighting for rights...no one has the right to reduce a proud people to such a state of wretchedness and indignity..

It was chosen as the experiment for the enforcement of neo-liberal shock policies and Greek people were the guinea pigs. If the experiment continues, it will be considered successful and the policies will be applied in other countries. It will not just be a victory for Greece but for all of Europe..."

Video: Black Metal Bassist Elected to Greek Parliament

Quote:

 

The election to parliament of a bass player from the Greek Black Metal band Naer Mataron has the Greek media scrambling to find connections between facism and heavy metal.

Chaos, as Greeks like to say, is a Greek word. And Greeks might agree that the election of a Black Metal musician to a country's legislature does not bode well for political stability.

This is the band that everyone in Greece is talking about these days. Its called Naer Mataron

Its not often that a Black Metal band gets to bask in the glow of the mainstream media spotlight. But its even less common that the bassist from a Black Metal band becomes a member of parliament. Stefanos Stefanopolous from webzine Rockway.gr explains.

Thats him on the left... Now if he only wears the makeup and costume while in parliament...

The Pseudo-Left Unmasked in Greece  - by Alex Lantier

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/may2012/pers-m24.shtml

"It has taken only a few days since the Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) became the front-runner in Greece's elections for the bankruptcy of its politics to become clear.."

SYRIZA Leader Tsipras in Berlin  - by Dreier Christoph

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/may2012/tsip-m24.shtml

"Tsipras spoke as a defender of capitalist order and its international institutions. 'We are proposing a way to save the euro,' he said. 'Our possible election victory offers the prospect of stabilizing Europe, not causing more instability as feared."

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

 

Video: Black Metal Bassist Elected to Greek Parliament

 

Quote:

 

The election to parliament of a bass player from the Greek Black Metal band Naer Mataron has the Greek media scrambling to find connections between facism and heavy metal.

Chaos, as Greeks like to say, is a Greek word. And Greeks might agree that the election of a Black Metal musician to a country's legislature does not bode well for political stability.

This is the band that everyone in Greece is talking about these days. Its called Naer Mataron

Its not often that a Black Metal band gets to bask in the glow of the mainstream media spotlight. But its even less common that the bassist from a Black Metal band becomes a member of parliament. Stefanos Stefanopolous from webzine Rockway.gr explains.

 

 

Thats him on the left... Now if he only wears the makeup and costume while in parliament...

That's not out of the question actually...he was elected as a deputy for Golden Dawn, the neo-Nazi group-which reinforces the theory some of us have had for awhile that there were connections between fascism and at least some forms of heavy metal-starting with the Teutonic schtick a lot of those groups go in for.

(no offense intended to any anti-fascist metalheads...to them I say "Party on, dude!".)

That picture is the face of a racist nazi.  Here is a good essay for you Bec that sets out the history. Neo-nazi's use this music as a recruiting tool and unfortunately a new generation of Brown Shirts is beginning to arise as the economy crumples.

Quote:

If white power music remains big business in the United States, it is even bigger in Europe, and especially Eastern Europe. Racist music is found in every one of Europe's 30 countries, but it is especially widespread in the Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Serbia and Slovakia. Perhaps most troubling is that racist skinhead culture, which has always sought the extreme, has even come to seem normal in places. In Germany, where the neo-fascist National Democratic Party (NPD) has openly sold white power music to raise money for elections, racist skins boastfully call some neighborhoods "National Liberated Zones" – no-go areas for any foreigners, blacks or Jews who want to avoid a beating or worse.

Interpol estimated in 1999 that the European neo-Nazi music industry was worth $3.4 million a year and said profit margins were better than for selling hashish — and since that time, the industry has clearly grown. In Poland, some racist bands now sell as many as 30,000 albums, comparable to successful local pop bands. In the early 2000s, that country of 39 million people had about 15,000 individuals intimately involved in the racist skinhead scene, according to Rafal Pankowski of the Polish anti-fascist group Never Again. In Germany, before the neo-Nazi music organization Blood & Honour was banned in 2000, there were about 180 white power concerts a year – or one every other day – according to Antifaschistische INFO-Blatt (AIB), a German anti-fascist organization. In Sweden, a 1997 survey showed that 12% of those aged 12 to 19 listened to white power music.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/racist...

Thanasis Pafilis on the Second Mnemonium (and vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeaPGGcgtU

"On 12/2/2012/the day the second mnemonium came to Parliament, Thanasis Pafilis of KKE, the Communist Party of Greece, gave a speech.."

What a shame we have no one in the House of Commons who comes even close

"life will suck"...apparently it already does

Greek Suicide Epidemic Continues

http://www.rt.com/news/greece-pensioner-suicide-crisis-619/

"A 61-year old Greek pensioner has hung himself from a tree in a public park after succumbing to the pressure of crushing debt A note in his pocket indicates he is merely the latest  in a rash of economic crisis-induced suicides.."

Sven wrote:

Point well taken, NDPP.  

i don't think ya took it t'll

Quote:

The suicide's note referred to Margaret Thatcher, and that made me think of one of her observations about socialism ("The problem with socialism is that eventually you will run out of other people's money"). Well, Greece has finally "run out of other people's money"...and it's not pretty. 

do you think white people are ever going to run out of our First Nations money they're using here in NA?

Sven wrote:

quizzical wrote:

Quote:

The suicide's note referred to Margaret Thatcher, and that made me think of one of her observations about socialism ("The problem with socialism is that eventually you will run out of other people's money"). Well, Greece has finally "run out of other people's money"...and it's not pretty. 

do you think white people are ever going to run out of our First Nations money they're using here in NA?

And how, exactly, is that even remotely relevant to this thread topic about Greece?

ya seem to think you're superior to the Greek people. or have superior beliefs.  yet here ya are in NA living off avails that belong to First Nations. First Nations at the very least. a good argument could be made for including blacks and other Indigenous to NA and Central America. 'cause after all NA would look like a far different place today if  that- not so distant past- gross exploitation and murder hadn't taken place. you're living in a glass house and throwing stones at other people. smug without a leg to stand on.

then let's delve into the reality of the Greeks being driven into massive debt. a lot of debt that happened through a forced  gala-aka Olympics- for the corporations and 1%ers by their lying politcians. not going to even waste more time by speaking to the other actions of their lying politicians. i went back and read the threads on this. you can too. not that ya will it's too much truth for ya.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Thx Quizzical I thought your question was very appropriate.

Fuck you Sven and your contribution to this thread, socialism is spending other peoples money.  I can't believe the shit you spew.  It seems to me to be provocative baiting and since you do it often it feels to me like trolling as well. 

WTF does that oppressive quote from the Iron Lady have to do with a progressive discussion about Greece. Maybe you have some gems from her buddy Pinochet you would like to throw into the discussion. Why you think that blaming the Greek people for the theft of the 0.1% has any relevance to a discussion under the terms of babble.

As tempting as it is, we need to avoid phrases like "fuck you".  I'm all for swearing, so long as it isn't used to insult and abuse someone.  Lots of words that can do a better job.

Sven wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Why you think that blaming the Greek people for the theft of the 0.1% has any relevance to a discussion under the terms of babble.

Retiring at age 50 is "theft of the 0.1%"?  That kind of a system is, as the Greeks are finding out, simply unsustainable.

Greece would never have had a financial problem at all if only the wealthy had paid their taxes(and if the ND government hadn't massively overspent on the Athens Olympics).  It really is that simple.  The pensions had nothing to do with it.  The size of the Greek public workforce had nothing to do with it.

Also, it's not nearly as bad for a Greek worker to retire at age 50(actually, in Greece, it was usually more like 55 or a little older)and some ultrabazillaire bubble beneficiary deciding to spend the rest of his life playing tennis at age 45 or so(having generally made his or her money solely off of the bundling of predatory home loans and unjustified mass layoffs of long-term employees, most of which seemed to happen around Christmas, for some twisted reason).

Letting "settlers"(of whom I am a descendant)off the hook was the last thing I intended to do with that post.  Yes, the "settlers" bear a large global responsibility...but that doesn't change the point that the economies of most, if not all countries on the planet these days are at the mercy of non-local, non-individual wealth.

Not sure what you're saying when you say "very, very few are doing  it on a global scale.  10's of millions are doing it on a NA scale").

Yes, North America is reponsible for a lot of it, but it is happening in economies all around the world...significantly through the influence of "the West" and the banks, to be sure, but is is happening everywhere.  There are almost no countries on the planet whose economies are based primarily on locally-generated revenues and individual effort.  The profit motive ignores most, if not all, borders.

[url=http://www.policymic.com/articles/9029/syriza-party-in-greek-debt-crisis...SYRIZA Party in Greek Debt Crisis Shows How OWS Groups Can Change Politics[/url]

By Cristina Maza

For the past several weeks election polls have demonstrated that Greece’s left-wing coalition, the anti-bailout SYRIZA party, is likely to win the general elections in June. Previously a relatively insignificant coalition that gained between 4%-5% in general elections, SYRIZA is now expected to win between 21%-28%, gaining exponential importance in Greece’s political playing field and increasing the likelihood that it will become the country’s next governing coalition. Politicians around Europe have been speculating over the effects a SYRIZA victory will have on Greece’s willingness to renegotiate the terms of debt repayment and bailout.

The upsurge in SYRIZA´s popularity has taken place in the context of the global economic crisis, Greece’s surmounting debt, and the influence of the Occupy movement and other resistance movements that have gained influence in Greece as a result of economic hardship. The desperate economic situation has demonstrated to the Greek population that it needs parliamentary politicians that protect their interests as opposed to those of the banks. [b]The victory of the SYRIZA coalition could have widespread consequences for European politics, demonstrating to the world the way in which resistance movements are changing the face of politics as we know it.[/b]

On May 25, 2011 Athens´ Syntagmata Square was occupied along with another 60 squares around the country. People stayed occupying the square for two months until Greek riot police entered, declaring the camp illegal, and began forcibly removing the encampment’s infrastructure. According to one Greek professor, the lessons learned during those two months, in which activists organized workshops and major discussions, are what allowed a coalition like SYRIZA to gain in popularity. The people in the square learned communal and democratic thinking, and came to the conclusion that they needed to find parliamentary parties that represent these idea, taking the wisdom from the squares and translating it into parliamentary politics.

SYRIZA, an acronym meaning “Coalition of the Radical Left,” was in the perfect position to gain the support of this widespread and diverse movement. Itself an umbrella organization of the far left, that includes such diverse members as the original Greek communist party (KKE), Eurocommunists, ecologists, and the left-social Democrats, SYRIZA represents both the diversity of the Occupy movement and the anti-austerity sentiment that the movement is calling for. [b]The ability of SYRIZA to gain the votes of everyone from anarchist youth to middle-class and professional workers whose job security has been threatened, to migrants and the urban poor, is what will account for the coalition’s success in June.[/b]

The possibility of a SYRIZA victory has politicians around Europe visibly nervous. Many European politicians have even speculated over the possibility of Greece quitting the euro zone if the new government does not wish to comply with the austerity program linked to the 130 billion euro bailout. The Greek population, however, has vehemently demonstrated its anti-austerity convictions through frequent strikes, violent demonstrations and even a public suicide staged in front of parliament. Now it is only left to see if these sentiments will be translated into political change in the June elections, bringing SYRIZA to power for the first time in the country’s history.

Thx Quizzical I thought your question was very appropriate.

Frelling Hell Sven WTF is with your contribution to this thread, socialism is spending other peoples money?  I can't believe the shit you spew.  It seems to me to be provocative baiting and since you do it often it feels to me like trolling as well. 

WTF does that oppressive quote from the Iron Lady have to do with a progressive discussion about Greece. Maybe you have some gems from her buddy Pinochet you would like to throw into the discussion. Why you think that blaming the Greek people for the theft of the 0.1% has any relevance to a discussion under the terms of babble.

Yes and it will nice to compare the price of oranges to apples in 20 years.  Last time I looked the Swiss have never had fascists directly in power and Germany has avoided them for over 65 years. The people of Greek have still not recovered from the fascist regime of 40 years ago and the quasi democratic governments its had since.

I agree Jacob that there are models in various places in the world that show countries how to escape the economic and financial control of the US NATO Axis of Evil.  I fear that for the Greek people the election of a government prepared to take an independent path from the Euro bankers demand will lead to a new junta being in place by September 1.

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

The real point is, as someone considered "left" on the Canadian political spectrum, I would never point to Greece as a role model for an alternative to American-style capitalism.

Apples and oranges, indeed.

Indeed anyone who would say such a thing would be displaying an extremely limited understanding of the issues.  I am hopeful though since you are the first to raise this strange idea.