Syria #6

CDN_FORCES wrote:

The only truly religious, extreme far right government that has ever existed in the area is Afghanistan under the Taliban

And the Taliban were proxies for the US from 1996 to 2001. In 1992 Tajiki warlord Ahmed Shah Massoud declared war on the Taliban. The US ambassador to Kabul advised Massoud to simply surrrender to the Taliban. Massoud's US funding was promptly cut off. 

It's said that the recipient of the largest dollar amount of US aid in the 1980s was warlord and drug baron Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. Hekmatyar became infamous for throwing acid in the faces of female university students in the 1980s. They chose to back ruthless mofos like Hekmatyard and Rabanni partly because those warlords actually have/had little support among ordinary Afghans. Without US funding they knew they were nothing and held no power over anyone. They were controlled more easily by Washington and Langley and by Saudi princes. And then the first doublecross in Pakistan occurred, only it wasn't the ISI crossing their CIA partners but the other way around when after 1989 the CIA began funding the most vicious warlords directly. NATO turned their backs on the carnage that ensued.

CDN_FORCES wrote:

The point all that is that governments choose allies on the needs of the day, not religious compatibility. When the needs change they get a bus any throw their former "friends" under it. I don't see any big conspiracy in that approach to international relations.

The whole point of the proxy war in Afghanistan for the west, their Saudis friends and Pakistani elite was to extirpate secular socialist thought from the region. Military dictator General Zia basically transformed Pakistan into a lawless militia state used as a staging country to launch attacks against the PDPA governnment in Kabul, Jalalabad etc. The Talibanization of Pakistan and Afghanistan since the latter half of the 1980s was deliberate and methodical according to Tariq Ali, Khalid Ahmed, British and Pakistani journalists who've written extensively on that part of Central Asia's recent history.

It's hard to sweep this sort of thing under the rug. Assad deserves a visit to the ICC.

U.N. Monitors Find Vast Devastation in Syrian Village

United Nations monitors in Syria reported fiery devastation, the smell of death, vacated homes, looted stores and vestiges of heavy weapons on Thursday during a visit to what had been a Sunni-populated village besieged for days by Syrian forces and pro-government militiamen who said they had cleansed it of rebel fighters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/15/world/middleeast/monitors-report-vast-...

Unionist wrote:

CDN_FORCES wrote:

It's hard to sweep this sort of thing under the rug. Assad deserves a visit to the ICC.

 

All I read was a description of armed insurgents using civilian neighbourhoods as bases and civilians as human shields. Isn't that the way your bosses describe things when they're trying to demonize insurgents? Did you lose your speaking notes, or what?

 

Still the little thread stalker, aren't you? And why no denunciation of Assad? Hmmm? Oh, right...

[url=http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/if-its-good-for-al-qaeda-can-it-b..."If Its Good For Al Qaeda, Can It Be Good For Us?"[/size][/url] asks U.S. Politician

[url=http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/even-after-admitting-that-the-syr.... Confirms Syrian Bombings Were Carried Out By Al Qaeda "Opposition" ... But We're Still Fighting On Their Side[/color][/url]

Al-Qa'eda is supporting the Syrian opposition.

So is the Muslim Brotherhood.

And Hamas.

"Al-Qa'eda" = Al-CIA'duh

And our vicious toadies in Ottawa just do as they are told by Warshington as usual. Same old Same old.

This person has a truly horrible worldview.

Inside Syria’s shabiha death squads

LATTAKIA, SYRIA AND BEIRUT, LEBANON — As Syria descends into civil war, Abu Jaafar said he is ready to kill women and children to defend his friends, family and president.

“Sunni women are giving birth to babies who will fight us in years to come, so we have the right to fight anyone who can hurt us in the future,” said the Allawite militiaman, a member of the ancient offshoot of Shiite Islam to which Syrian President Bashar Assad and the powerbase of his regime belong.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1212059--inside-syria-s-shabih...

kropotkin1951 wrote:

NATO is the worlds largest and most murderous criminal organization.  It drops more bombs on civilians than all the "evil dictators" in the world combined.  How many wars does it take to make the world save for oil companies?

Hardly. NATO has procedures to avoid bombing civilians, whereas certain countries make a point to do so in order to inflict collective punishment.

CDN_FORCES wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

NATO is the worlds largest and most murderous criminal organization.  It drops more bombs on civilians than all the "evil dictators" in the world combined.  How many wars does it take to make the world save for oil companies?

Hardly. NATO has procedures to avoid bombing civilians, whereas certain countries make a point to do so in order to inflict collective punishment.

Thank you for your justification for the bombings.  I knew you had it in you.

NATO's procedures? Do you mean like counting ALL males of military age as combatants?  Doesn't matter who they are any military aged male is not considered civilian by the NATO killing machine.  As well the policy is to not include as civilians anyone who was with the person targeted by NATO's killing machine.  If you are the wife or child of a freedom fighter you too are not a civilian when murdered.  That is indeed execution for the crime of guilt by association.  If your father is fighting an occupying enemy then you as a child are also guilty.  If you are a cousin or brother and you go to a wedding and a targeted person is also attended then you too are not a civilian.

Yup great procedures to obfuscate.  Just call everyone you kill an enemy and voila almost no civilian causalities.

Not all of their procedures are widely publicized for sure.

[url=http://worldcrunch.com/bombed-libyan-village-where-natos-collateral-dama...

Our corrupt stoogeaucracies can't afford full blown military occupations Vietnam-style anymore. The future of fascism is with blitzkriegs and robotic warfare/terrorism.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 

The Syrian people have more to fear from the evil empire with its unquenchable thirst for oil than from their own petty dictators.

 

Cute statement, but factually incorrect. I doubt that Mr Assad is looking after the interests of all the Syrian people. But don't take my word for it, just listen to the UN Observers who are in country witnessing some very horrible atrocities. In the interest of fairness, the Syrian Army is also suffering from attacks by the armed opposition, but from what's been published by the UN the Army is responsible for the vast majority of killings.

The comment about oil is always brought out. The reality is that if the US wanted Syria's oil they could just buy it. But they can't because of the sanctions imposed by the UN, and those sanctions were put in place after Assad decided to repress the "Arab Spring" using shells and bombs. But it would be a huge stretch to claim that any war against Syria (which won't happen by the way) would be about getting access to their oil. US oil production has climbed steadily over the past 5 years, and the ME now accounts for significantly less of their imports. It would be about stopping the killing of civilians. But like I said, there won't be a Libyian-style war in Syria, so Assad will probably get his way and just sell oil to China or on the black market.

CDN_FORCES wrote:

The comment about oil is always brought out. The reality is that if the US wanted Syria's oil they could just buy it.

They don't want Syria's oil so much as Iranian oil. 

The Gladio Gang and blood for oil hounds want Iran's oil. And Syria is Iran's only ally in the region.

Moreover, Murder Incorporated has coveted Russia's natural resource wealth and meddling in that country's affairs since turn of the last century. Basically whichever country denies corporate America's access to natural resource wealth and-or cheap labour, they are considered part of the evol empire of darkness or whatever.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

CDN_FORCES wrote:

No one justified killing civilians, except the Alawi guy in the Star story.

Don't trust those Alawi is your not to subtle message and it a disgusting one.  Dehumanizing the "enemy" is the first priority of any propaganda spewed out on behalf of an empire about to inflict more pain and suffering on millions of people.

Allow me to bust in on this one. And I snipped-off what was an excellent post by you, kropotkin, because I wanted to expand on our previous exchange as to why the NDP hasn't contested any of the faulty lapdog newz media reporting since NATO-Qa'eda forces laid siege to Tripoli and are now working hand-in-glove to arm various "rebel groups" in Syria and using Turkey as a staging country to launch terrorist attacks against Assad's government troops and civilians. 

I'd just like to point out that like the events surrounding the infamous terrorist attacks on 9/11/01, the lapdog newz media are basically reporting whatever US Government and NATO countries instruct them to WRT Syria similarly. There is no fourth estate anymore. Lapdog newz media is a long-time organ of the state capitalist setup including NATO's ambitious push Eastward since the end the end of the cold war. 

It makes no sense to me that the NDP should shift gears now and challenge the official NATO-Gladio colder war version of events in Syria. The truth would necessitate pointing to the fact that US Government has colluded with righ wing religious fundamentalists, mujahideen, Al-Qa'eda and Qa'eda affiliated terrorists and mercenaries for hire from over 40 countries and dating back to 1980's Afghanistan, and 1990's Bosnia and Macedonia. How can the NDP begin to afford the time and effort and party resources to research this colder war issue and especially at a time when large numbers of even the left are still under the illusion that 9/11 was not an inside job to launch ten years of global warfiteering and imperialist maneuvering on the other side of the world?

I really don't believe this is what NDP delegates hired Mulcair to do. Like 9/11 truth, truth about Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Syria is simply too much for one oppostition party in Ottawa to take on. First things first we have a corrupt stoogeaucracy to clean out of in Ottawa. Like 9/11 truth is far too much for voters to focus on leading up to elections in 2015, so, too,  is this colder war maneuvering in the Middle East too much for the NDP to tackle. It would be political suicide. Eyes on the prize. And I think those who agree that 9/11 truth is too far gone down the rabbit hole to pursue politically, so is the current NATO agenda in Syria. Colder war events will unfold in the Middle East regardless of whether the NDP chooses to fall on their swords over Syria or not. Let's not make it easy for them to retain phony-majority power in Ottawa by 2015.  In Canada the real conspiracy is our obsolete electoral system. And if the NDP can overthrow our FPTP electoral regime, I think it would be significant for the left in general.

CDN_FORCES wrote:

People don't just wake one morning and decide it be jolly good fun to go "bombing police stations and launching armed attacks against vital infrastructure". They're pushed to it by heavy-handed government oppression. What you wrote makes it sound like the Syrian people are responsible for their current misfortune.

Yeah but what if Russia, China and Cuba were to start funding(and arming) a long list of right wing militias and other armed extremists in order to destabilize America similarly? What would happen is that those countries would soon be identified as having perpetrated acts of war against America. Similar occurs when Warshington funds legitimate political opposition groups around the world. That's crossing the line, too.

One of us is as a sponge for the pro war propaganda. And I'm pretty sure it isn't me or Kropotkin1951.

That's an insult to the ringmasters who played more of a hand in Rwanda than he cares to give them credit for.

They say the landscape resembles Canada except with fewer absentee corporate landlords siphoning-off the oil and gas and old growth forest to be made into luxurious toilet paper. And the logging roads better maintained in Canada.

CDN Forces I trust the UN on very few issues.  Its like saying the Greeks must be subjected to austerity because the World Bank and the IMF say it is good for them.  The UN has lost all credibility in this new century when it comes to international affairs.  The Duty to Protect is the antithesis of the idea that sovereign nations should not have their affairs interfered with by other countries. It leads to war mongers being able to say we had to or we would have been damned for inaction.  You effectively highlighted this dynamic in your post above.  The idea of war making as a good is immoral, illogical and either hypocritical or naive.  There can be no peace when there is war.  Starting wars always breaks the peace.  Going to war to bring peace is like fucking for virginity.

Sanctions like the ones being imposed that are designed to destroy an economy are in fact an act of war.  The arming of insurgents and provision of logistic and financial support as NATO and its allies are currently doing is a violation of international law. They are engaged in regime change and your efforts at obfuscating the truth are pathetic.  I wish that instead of firing environmental scientists our government would give people like you your pink slips and send you out to get a real job.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

CDN Forces I trust the UN on very few issues.

Really? 

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The Duty to Protect is the antithesis of the idea that sovereign nations should not have their affairs interfered with by other countries. It leads to war mongers being able to say we had to or we would have been damned for inaction.  You effectively highlighted this dynamic in your post above.  The idea of war making as a good is immoral, illogical and either hypocritical or naive.  There can be no peace when there is war.  Starting wars always breaks the peace.  Going to war to bring peace is like fucking for virginity.

Total gibberish. The duty to protect those who can't defend themselves is rooted in thousands of years of human history. It's one of the things that differentiates us from the animals. Your way is the law of the jungle, where the Kosovo Muslims are exterminated.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I wish that instead of firing environmental scientists our government would give people like you your pink slips and send you out to get a real job.

I'm sure you feel like that right now, today. But someday when you or your family are in peril and require help that the military is best positioned to provide I'm sure you'll change your mind. No athiests in foxholes and all that.

CDN_FORCES wrote:

Total gibberish. The duty to protect those who can't defend themselves is rooted in thousands of years of human history. It's one of the things that differentiates us from the animals. Your way is the law of the jungle, where the Kosovo Muslims are exterminated.

Unlike me it seems that your areas of expertise are neither law nor political studies. Once again your use of language like "total gibberish" shows you have no facts and do not want to actually debate the essence of the issues. You are here to spew venomous propaganda.

My way is the way of international law and treaties that say interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation is not allowed.  It is not a centuries old doctrine but rather one from the last century. The impetus for the change to that model were the endless wars that plagued Europe in the 18th, 19th and first half of the 20th century.  Most empires and wanna be empires in those centuries used the excuse of protecting minorities to go to war.  Your postings above remind me of the infamous WWI propaganda showing German soldiers bayoneting babies.

As to needing your protection could you please tell me who is going to invade Canada? It occurs to me that the more we extend the range of Canadian military might in conjunction with NATO the more people in the world hate us.  We need coast guard and a small standing army trained to deal with natural disasters and an air force capable of operating in our north and other isolated areas to ensure those communities have security from natural disasters as well.  We don't need to project ourselves into civil wars on the other side of the planet.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

As to needing your protection could you please tell me who is going to invade Canada?

 I never claimed Canada was at risk of being invaded; you inferred that all by yourself. What I said was "peril".

Let's suppose you're in northern Ontario during fire season and need immediate evacuation:

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=11974

July 22, 2011

OTTAWA - Since Wednesday evening, the Canadian Forces have evacuated over 500 more Canadians from northern Ontario communities, which continue to be threatened by wildfires. Five Canadian Forces CC-130 Hercules transport aircraft began flying at first light this morning from Winnipeg, Manitoba, picking up people from Sandy Lake, Kingfisher Lake and Deer Lake First Nations communities and delivering them to Thunder Bay, Ontario.

Or let's say you're in peril from flooding:

Canadian military rush to Manitoba flood zone

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/environment/extreme-weather/red-ri...

At the height of the battle, over 8000 soldiers - one-tenth of the Canadian military - are on duty in the Manitoba flood zone. They come from all over - Canadian Forces Bases Petawawa, Kingston, Gagetown and Edmonton - to help in all sorts of ways. Engineers help the highways department. Other personnel build and patrol dikes and evacuate communities, police empty towns and provide medical assistance and, once it's all over, help thousands of people return home. CBC TV's Robert Enright was there to watch Canadian heroes at work.

Or your fishing boat is sinking:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2011/10/31/north-igloolik-survivor.html

Igloolik survivor calls rescuers 'heroes'

One of the survivors of last week's fatal rescue mission near Igloolik, Nunavut, describes his rescuers as heroes.

"The one who came to us truly saved our lives, bailing water from the raft. We were helpless and he saved us," said David Aqqiaruq.

Page Break

Back to foreign intervention. I don't agree with the idea that a government can do whatever it wants to the people living with the borders of a sovereign country.I believe that if civilians are being massacred by their government, that government is longer legitimate. I can't see any justification for shelling any unarmed civilians.

That also applies to Israel by the way, not only Syria.

NDPP wrote:

"... and no more international hired gun lap-dogging for imperialist US/NATO interests."

Pfffff!   Who's an errand boy sent by grocery clerks to collect a bill? 

For those of you that don't trust Press TV here is its source. This is an act of war.  NATO is actively involved in a civil war taking place within Syria. So much for people who try to deny that regime change is the game being played out in Syria.

Daily Star wrote:

A SPY-IN-THE-SKY is listening in on President Assad’s ruthless killers to save the lives of ­innocent men, women and children. The British and US ­satellites pick up their plans then pass them on to dissident leaders through MI6 and CIA ­officers who have ­infiltrated Syria.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/257143/Satellites-target-Syrian-lea...