That was one of the most eloquent things I've ever seen during an election campaign...in fact, ever.
Merci, Amir.
quebec election - 04.09.2012
Mon, 2012-09-03 04:39
#402
Mon, 2012-09-03 04:39
#403
That was one of the most eloquent things I've ever seen during an election campaign...in fact, ever.
Merci, Amir.
Mon, 2012-09-03 05:07
#404
I would say though, the prospect that under PR there would be left-fed, right-fed, left-sov, right-sov parties and maybe more... it would certainly make for an intricate coalition-building exercise. The plurality winner could cobble together ad-hoc coalitions on an issue by issue basis to get legislation passed, but there would also be the temptation for parties with less seats to band together instead. However in the event of that happening, those parties would be much more strongly bound to one another. (e.g. when McGuinty has a minority and solicits NDP or Conservative support on an issue-by-issue basis, he doesn't have to stay loyal to one. But when Peterson relied on Rae to turf Miller and offer an alternative, he had to honour that accord - at least until he knew he'd be able to win another election.)
In most countries with legislatures, you can't just rule as a rump minority - you have to have a clearly defined and established coalition of the majority of seats. This would certainly make for a different dynamic in CDN fed and prov minority governments, but it has its disadvantages too.
Mon, 2012-09-03 06:10
#405
autoworker
It's worth keeping in mind that, whichever party wins, its leader won't be Quebec's head of state.
Mon, 2012-09-03 07:40
#406
Well, technically the Queen is Québec's head of state, which is an argument for republicanism. Unless one is Jacques Parizeau, that is!
All of this is about forming governments, not choosing heads of state. Many countries which are not monarchies have a largely symbolic head of state. In Italy and Israel, always given as counter-examples against proportional representation and coalition governments, the symbolic President has often played a key role in ensuring the stability of state institutions.
I believe the Amir statement was part of his rousing speech against exclusion and identity-based politics in the Québec solidaire rally a couple of weeks ago. He had a lot more to say in the same vein.
Québec solidaire seeks "un pays de projets" - the freedom to choose a more just and ecologically sane path than Harper's anti-labour and ecocidal Canada. Yes, of course one could find it preferable to try to achieve that federally - and Khadir knows that in any event it is essential to find progressive partners in English-speaking Canada - and throughout the Americas for that matter. He can speak for himself, most eloquently. The rally has been video-recorded, but I don't know if there are clips of specific speeches (Amir's was the best).
A pleasant surprise - usually I can't open Facebook addresses (I'm not on Facebook - working on a LinkedIn or similar profile, but that will be strictly professional).
Mon, 2012-09-03 08:21
#407
autoworker
The problem is, many first ministers act like heads of state. So much so, that they, and their courtiers have a hard time letting go. After the deluge, should anyone see Charest walking along Sherbrooke, looking lost and bewildered, buy the poor soul a cup of coffee. To paraphrase Mark Twain: there's nothing sadder than an old optimist.
Mon, 2012-09-03 09:10
#408
I fail to see why heads of government acting like heads of state is such a problem; if the actual head of state wielded power, we would be living in an archaic monarchy.
Don't worry about Charest: I'm sure he already has far-better private sector prospects lined up already. And he isn't a sad sort of fellow; he is rather jovial. One of the nicest things about him - in person he is a most amiable sort. (I met him in a professional context once).
Mon, 2012-09-03 10:09
#409
autoworker
Heads of government serve the state at the pleasure of the people; but an anachronism, now and then, might be worth the diversion-- in an amusing sort of way.
Mon, 2012-09-03 10:17
#410
It's never too late to warn voters of the chaos that could ensue if they make the mistake of voting for Québec solidaire:
[url=http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2012/09/02/tiny-radical-party-could-end... radical party could end up with balance of power in Québec election[/url]
If only.
Mon, 2012-09-03 10:53
#411
THat's a great idea.... let's support proportional representation, but only when it produces results that we like.
And yes it is kind of confusing to have someone be partisan when wearing the govenrment hat, and non-partisan when wearing the head of state hat - as it is down in the States.
Mon, 2012-09-03 11:48
#412
Also remember that the US system of presidential election is very undemocratic indeed.
This is why many republics have a symbolic President as well as an elected Prime Minister. That used to be the case in France; but Charles de Gaulle staged a semi coup d'état, resulting in the "5th republic" and much more presidential than parliamentary power.
Most nations to the south of the US in the Americas: Mexico, Central and South American countries, seem to have a presidential system similar to that of the US, but I'd have to study their systems closer.
And of course some of the most democratic countries in Northern Europe have retained the monarchy.
Mon, 2012-09-03 11:59
#413
@ lagatta
Yes, I agree.
If Canada or Quebec were to become republics, the most logical choice for head of state in my mind would be either a new appointed position, or speaker of the house (though I think the workload of the latter might preclude all the ceremonial work).
The idea of an elected head of state makes no sense whatsoever. It is the last position one would want to be partisan.
/drift
Mon, 2012-09-03 12:35
#414
I have reason for QS fans to love Mulcair again! :p Apparently the risktaking Mulcair's riding took when electing him has proven addictive and it looks like his riding could be winnable for QS. http://marysoderstrom.blogspot.ca/2012/09/outremont-up-for-graps-again-q...
Mon, 2012-09-03 14:30
#415
That is great! And I love Mary Soderstrom's blog - lots of urbanism, walkable cities and neighbourhoods, literature, learning Portuguese and simply photos of lovely things close to home and far away.
One day, I happened to cycle down her street, and she and her husband both waved at me and said hello.
I'm sending this straight off to two friends in Outremont riding - one lives in Mile End, the other in Outremont proper (and only pays about $500 a month for a very nice little flat, believe it or not in that posh district). They will be delighted!
Despite my criticisms of Mulcair, I was delighted when he was first elected - though of course I like my own NDP MP, Alexandre Boulerice, better. Obviously, the Federal riding is larger, and incorporates more of Côte-des-Neiges.
Mon, 2012-09-03 15:10
#416
Q.S. needs four seats to be a recognized party in the Quebec Legislature, don't they?
Are those three additional seats a good possibility?
Getting Official Party status (and holding the balance of power!?) would be an interesting scenario, don't you think?
If Marois doesn't get a majority, those wanting to replace her will start to sharpen their knives right away, won't they?
Mon, 2012-09-03 15:45
#417
Well, according to this, it might come true, but I'm trying not to be too optimistic and disappointed:
http://tinyurl.com/QS-aumoins4
Québec solidaire se prédit au moins 4 députés - La Presse
And it is funny, I know all the people whose faces you see in full on the pic - enough that they know me by name at least, though the only personal friend is André Frappier, the guy with glasses just left of Amir.
I know that the tall dark fellow in the cap - Tall, dark, handsome man, I might add, as a certified Dirty Old Lady, but alas we don't see his sweet face, is Will Prosper, head of "Montréal-Nord Républik", an association defending kids in that hood from the strong propensity of police guns to go off accidentally in the presence of young men of colour, and promote the rights and prospects of community residents in general.
I think the guy hidden behind Amir is the candidate for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve.
Mon, 2012-09-03 17:23
#418
Will Prosper I read that name in a Mcclean's story on the PQ's anti immagrantion policies.
He actually came off really well in the a story (not often does QS get painted more moderate and rational in the msm then the PQ).
QS came off looking good and attacking the PQ for its stances.
Mon, 2012-09-03 20:41
#419
Well, according to this, it might come true, but I'm trying not to be too optimistic and disappointed: http://tinyurl.com/QS-aumoins4 Québec solidaire se prédit au moins 4 députés - La Presse And it is funny, I know all the people whose faces you see in full on the pic - enough that they know me by name at least, though the only personal friend is André Frappier, the guy with glasses just left of Amir. I know that the tall dark fellow in the cap - Tall, dark, handsome man, I might add, as a certified Dirty Old Lady, but alas we don't see his sweet face, is Will Prosper, head of "Montréal-Nord Républik", an association defending kids in that hood from the strong propensity of police guns to go off accidentally in the presence of young men of colour, and promote the rights and prospects of community residents in general. I think the guy hidden behind Amir is the candidate for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve.
Does anybody think the photographer was trying to create a visual pun in that shot, with Amir Khadir LITERALLY "tilting sharply to the left"?
Mon, 2012-09-03 20:42
#420
Well, according to this, it might come true, but I'm trying not to be too optimistic and disappointed: http://tinyurl.com/QS-aumoins4 Québec solidaire se prédit au moins 4 députés - La Presse And it is funny, I know all the people whose faces you see in full on the pic - enough that they know me by name at least, though the only personal friend is André Frappier, the guy with glasses just left of Amir. I know that the tall dark fellow in the cap - Tall, dark, handsome man, I might add, as a certified Dirty Old Lady, but alas we don't see his sweet face, is Will Prosper, head of "Montréal-Nord Républik", an association defending kids in that hood from the strong propensity of police guns to go off accidentally in the presence of young men of colour, and promote the rights and prospects of community residents in general. I think the guy hidden behind Amir is the candidate for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve.
Does anybody think the photographer was trying to create a visual pun in that shot, with Amir Khadir LITERALLY "leaning sharply to the left"?
Mon, 2012-09-03 21:34
#421
Although I don't live in Quebec, I had a discussion with a friend who does yesterday. I confessed that I would support QS if I lived in Quebec, and he was very dissapointed. He made the following argument, "If you agreed with a political party on all issues, except that the party wanted to make same-sex marriage illegal, would hold a referendum on the issue the day after it was elected to power, and created ads where a gay rights rainbow flag was kicked, and the phrase "straight, but not like the others" was read, would I still support them." Not sure if the logic is right, but I guess the legitimate option for me would be Union Citoyenne du Quebec, despite having no realistic chance at a seat. Of course, this is all hypothetical as I live on the other side of the river.
Mon, 2012-09-03 21:49
#422
The logic in the "argument" your friend makes is not only spurious, but deeply offensive. Support for Quebec sovereignty has nothing in common with homophobia(or racism or sexism or any other reactionary value). Whatever you think about Quebec sovereignty, it goes without saying that nobody would be oppressed by it in the way that LGBT people would be oppressed by(or are oppressed by, in the places where this is the current situation) the criminalization of same-sex marriage. Nothing that has happened or could ever happen to anglophones in Quebec could ever be comparable to the historic persecution visited on LGBT people, or people of color, or FN people, or women. Heterosexual(and presumably male)anglophones simply can't ever be the victims of anything like that sort of misery.
Not quarreling with your wish to back the party you support, but the analogy used above is unacceptable.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:13
#423
Although I don't live in Quebec, I had a discussion with a friend who does yesterday. I confessed that I would support QS if I lived in Quebec, and he was very dissapointed. He made the following argument, "If you agreed with a political party on all issues, except that the party wanted to make same-sex marriage illegal, would hold a referendum on the issue the day after it was elected to power, and created ads where a gay rights rainbow flag was kicked, and the phrase "straight, but not like the others" was read, would I still support them." Not sure if the logic is right, but I guess the legitimate option for me would be Union Citoyenne du Quebec, despite having no realistic chance at a seat. Of course, this is all hypothetical as I live on the other side of the river.
Friends like yours are what keep kick-starting the sovereignty movement here. Tell him I said so, please. Maybe it'll cool his ardour a bit. Or not. Don't really care.
Oh and by the way, it's [b]conceptually impossible[/b] to agree with a party on all issues except same-sex marriage. A party which wants to make it illegal - in Canada, in 2012 - must necessarily be the enemy of human rights on every imaginable front. For your friend to think that you, or he, could agree with any party on everything except that one issue shows the profound bullshit which is at work in such spurious arguments.
ETA: Forgot to mention: Anyone who told you that QS is promoting a referendum on sovereignty the day after winning power is lying to you. I'd like to think they're just being dead ignorant, but that would be too generous. Ignorant people don't make shit up, they look it up. So please mention to your friend that he is a liar and he should either tell the truth or, better, keep his mouth shut.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:18
#424
Gee, "U"...d'ya think his "friend" actually exists?
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:26
#425
Boom Boom
ETA: Forgot to mention: Anyone who told you that QS is promoting a referendum on sovereignty the day after winning power is lying to you. I'd like to think they're just being dead ignorant, but that would be too generous. Ignorant people don't make shit up, they look it up. So please mention to your friend that he is a liar and he should either tell the truth or, better, keep his mouth shut.
He (if he exists...) probably got the idea from their platform:
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:33
#426
I know extremely well what their platform says, Boom Boom, and it says nothing about a referendum on sovereignty the day after being elected - nor necessarily ever, because the subject matter of any future referendum will come from the people gathered in assembly. Our "friend"'s idea comes not from learning about the QS platform, but by hearing about it from one of our enemies. It's exactly on the level of Jean Charest saying Pauline Marois stands with intimidation and violence because she wore the red square for a while.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:33
#427
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/elections/quebec-candidates-m...
May favourite part was Quebecers shouting "Canada, Canada" at Marios.
And if Marios thinks a majority government on less then a third of the vote in Quebec, with a majority voting for federalist parties is a mandate to push her "seperatist adgenda" through the legistsure and blow tax dollar on it, she's smoking something.
I can only hope its a minority. I support preportional rep for all levels of government right across this country.
Not that I'm a fan of the right wing adgenda of the other two, but then a sizable chunk of both parties lean left (51 percent of CAQ and 43 percent of the Liberals I believe), so if Quebec had preportional rep the how knows what the National Assembly would look like.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:37
#428
Boom Boom
I think the 'friend' mixed up "advocating" with "promoting". "Throughout the process, Québec solidaire will advocate for creating a sovereign Quebec state, without assuming what the outcome of the debates will be."
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:38
#429
Brachina - did some "friend" tell you that CAQ is a "federalist party"? Did you know that CAQ has never answered "yes" when asked that question? Did you know that while Legault has said that he personally would vote no if a referendum were held [b]today[/b], he does not describe himself as federalist? Did you know that some of his key candidates (e.g. François Rebello, not to speak of others) will not even commit to vote no [b]today[/b] if a referendum is held - they merely say, "we don't want a referendum now"?
So please don't speak for Quebecers and tell us that a majority have voted for "federalist parties" when the results are counted tomorrow. My advice: Listen more.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:39
#430
This continues to raise the question:
Why do a majority of CAQ voters say they are going to vote for a party they know to be to their right? It's not as if CAQ has proposed any policies of singular brilliance during this campaign.
For that matter, why don't the 43% of PLQ voters who claim to lean left vote UCQ? That party, in theory, should be the answer to their most fervent hopes and dreams.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:40
#431
I think the 'friend' mixed up "advocating" with "promoting". "Throughout the process, Québec solidaire will advocate for creating a sovereign Quebec state, without assuming what the outcome of the debates will be."
No, Boom Boom, the "friend" said QS would hold a referendum on sovereignty the day after winning power. That's a deliberate lie made to frighten well-meaning people. And in at least one case above, it seems to have worked.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:40
#432
Boom Boom
Okay, U, I missed that part.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:46
#433
Boom Boom
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/elections/quebec-candidates-m... May favourite part was Quebecers shouting "Canada, Canada" at Marios.
They sound like a bunch of ignorant fuckheads to me. I'm voting PQ by the way - because the local PQ candidate is someone I know fairly well, and I really like her. I worked with her - through email and in person - on getting Route 138 pushed through the Lower North Shore.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:47
#434
OK.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:49
#435
Boom Boom
I've never heard of Coalition pour la constituante, and Option nationale, before I got my voter information card. I'm amazed they each have a candidate here.
Mon, 2012-09-03 22:58
#436
I've never heard of Coalition pour la constituante, and Option nationale, before I got my voter information card. I'm amazed they each have a candidate here.
Just found the "Coalition" website
Haven't tried to figure out what they stand for...but I enjoy the fact that their party symbol is a white flag.
Mon, 2012-09-03 23:28
#437
I can only hope its a minority.
Well, the PQ have held steady at 33% - 34% in the polls and I'd wager, with 95% probability, that the PQ will have a minority government. How the balance of the assembly shapes out I have no idea.
How do I come to the conclusion of a PQ minority government? History.
Here are Canadian minority governments popular vote. 37% seems to be the bottom line in order to win a slight majority:
31.34% - 1924 BC - Liberals win a minority with 23 of 48 seats - Conservatives won 29.45% and 17 seats and the Provincial Party (BC's UF or Progressives) won 24.16% and 3 seats
32.94% - 1941 BC - Liberals win a minority and form a coalition with the Conservatives
33.08% - 2007 Quebec - Liberals win a very small minority with 48 of 125 seats
35.34% - 1998 Nova Scotia - Liberals win a minority
35.7% - 1943 Ontario - PCs win a minority
35.89% - 1979 Federal - PCs win a minority
35.9% - 1992 Yukon - Yukon Party wins a minority
36.1% - 1975 Ontario - PCs win a minority
36.27% - 2006 Federal - Conservatives win a minority
36.32% - 2003 Nova Scotia - PCs win a minority
36.73% - 2004 Federal - Liberals win a minority
37.0% - 1985 Ontario - PCs win the most seats but the Liberals with 37.9% soon form a government with the cooperation of the NDP
37.22% - 1962 Federal - PCs win a minority
37.34% - 1937 BC - Liberals win a [b]majority[/b] - Conservatives managed 28.60% and the CCF 28.57%
37.57% - 1990 Ontario - NDP wins a [b]majority[/b]
37.62% - 2011 Ontario - Liberals win a minority
37.65% - 2008 Federal - Conservatives win a minority
37.89% - 1920 BC - Liberals win a [b]majority[/b]
38.02% - 1944 Quebec - Union Nationale under Duplessis wins a [b]majority[/b] but lost the popular vote to the Liberals who scored 39.35%
[Courtesy to BC Iconoclast]
Tue, 2012-09-04 02:21
#438
love is free
The problem is, many first ministers act like heads of state. So much so, that they, and their courtiers have a hard time letting go. After the deluge, should anyone see Charest walking along Sherbrooke, looking lost and bewildered, buy the poor soul a cup of coffee. To paraphrase Mark Twain: there's nothing sadder than an old optimist.
except that charest lives in westmount and is unlikely to be walking anywhere once he parachutes onto the power corp's board of directors.
Tue, 2012-09-04 03:44
#439
OK...it's election day...when do the polls open/when do they close?
And what will be the best sources for results info as the evening goes on?
Tue, 2012-09-04 05:10
#440
i think they close at 8 pm and CBC interactive map live.
Tue, 2012-09-04 05:17
#441
two polls yesterday Sept 3
Forum
PQ 36% (+3)
PLQ 29% (+1)
CAQ 25% (-2)
QS 6% (-2)
PVQ 2% (=)
ON 2% (=)
Ekos
PQ 36%
CAQ 24.5&
PLQ 23.2%
QS 10.7%
no PVQ or ON
Tue, 2012-09-04 07:05
#442
The Ekos poll seems to continue the trend line of most of the last polls...suggesting even more clearly that the Forum poll was probably an outlier, publicized opportunistically by the National Ghost for the purpose of demoralizing QS supporters.
Tue, 2012-09-04 07:57
#443
Actually, a good chunk of Sherbrooke West is in Westmount. Yep, if Charest walks anywhere, it will be for exercise. Probably going to have a very good cup of coffee at Cavallaro Fine Foods - the good burghers of Westmount got a shock when that upscale café/deli was firebombed at the height of the spate of Italian café bar firebombings.
The constituent assembly is an exercise in broad-based democracy (a key tenet of QS). Guess the friend never read the last part of the quote: "without assuming what the outcome of the debates will be". The idea is to hear from all corners of Québec society, not only sovereignists!
And constitutional debates have nothing in common with dog whistles such as "gay marriage" - nobody other than far-right fundies would oppose it here nowadays.
I know several federalists who have or will be voting QS, and even more sovereigntists who voted NDP. As Boom Boom says, lots of people who have voted PQ have done so for reasons that have little or nothing to do with a longing for independence.
Interestingly, QS is ahead of the PQ in Outremont riding...
Nobody here will insult or berate Charest on the street once he is no longer in office - that is simply no part of the mindset. Both Trudeau and Mulroney simply became normal - if very upper-crust - citizens once no longer in office, and did enjoy walking about on the streets, not "downcast" at all.
Tue, 2012-09-04 08:25
#444
This continues to raise the question:
Why do a majority of CAQ voters say they are going to vote for a party they know to be to their right? It's not as if CAQ has proposed any policies of singular brilliance during this campaign.
Same reason masses of sovereignists voted for the NDP in May 2011. They want change, and they don't see the clear simple agent of that change, so they'll try something different - just as they did by making the ADQ the official opposition in 2007. That lasted until 2008, and they tried something different.
For that matter, why don't the 43% of PLQ voters who claim to lean left vote UCQ? That party, in theory, should be the answer to their most fervent hopes and dreams.
Full disclosure: If I didn't inhabit babble, [b]I would never have heard of the UCQ[/b]. No one in Québec has ever heard of them. Furthermore, no one votes on the basis of someone's platform. Promises are broken all the time, and people aren't stupid. No one voted for the NDP in May 2011 because of their platform. No one even knew what that platform was. All they knew was that the NDP was dead against Harper, that the Bloc had exhausted 20 years of hope for effective progress in Ottawa, and that Jack Layton sounded like a decent, confident, pro-unity kind of person, the kind we like here (cf. Françoise David's 40% approval rating in the debate).
ETA: By "pro-unity" I do [b]not[/b] mean pro-Canadian unity. I mean pro-coalitions, pro-accords, pro-whatever it took to bring people together to beat Harper. By contrast with Iggy, who declared from day 1 that he was anti-coalition.
Tue, 2012-09-04 10:29
#445
love is free
that ekos poll is nuts, wow. anyway, today is the day! i have an insane day at work, so i'll get to the results late tonight, it'll be nice not to have get results minute-by-minute for once, and wake up the next day with a hangover.
everyone in montreal with some time should head over to help amir (if you speak no french) or françoise (if you do).
Tue, 2012-09-04 10:30
#446
Well, the PQ have held steady at 33% - 34% in the polls and I'd wager, with 95% probability, that the PQ will have a minority government. How the balance of the assembly shapes out I have no idea. How do I come to the conclusion of a PQ minority government? History.
So in other words, if the PQ scores a majority with 37% or less, they will win an award for "falsest majority ever" in Canadian history?
Tue, 2012-09-04 10:48
#447
It's right up there with the 1997 federal Liberal majority on 38.46% of the votes(with two-thirds of the Liberal caucus elected from Ontario).
Tue, 2012-09-04 10:54
#448
38% becuz of diff parties vote splitting. unlike usa presidential two way FPTP they 50% around. i guess
Tue, 2012-09-04 11:18
#449
unlike usa presidential two way FPTP they 50% around. i guess
All the candidates on [url=http://www.politics1.com/p2012.htm]this page[/url] will be surprised to learn that it's "two way FPTP", but whatever.
Tue, 2012-09-04 13:13
#450
I'm at the Gouin campaign office all day, so doubt I can add much today...
Tue, 2012-09-04 13:24
#451
Thanks for doing this lagatta! I'm too sick to be doing GOTV... Crossing my fingers for Françoise, Amir, Andrés, Manon and everyone!