So, over at the good old Huff Post they are speculating the LPC sees the Qubec election and the spectre of Sepratisim as a way to regain power. What do you think the NDP needs to do to counter this? How does this fit into the issue of the "Sherbrook Accord"? Will the Libs be successful in doing this. If Trudeua embraces this when he becomes party leader, will he be unstoppable. Finally, what does this say the LPC, Liberals in general, and Trudeau in particular?
Are the Liberals uisng fear mongering over Sepratism to try and win their way back to power
Tue, 2012-09-04 20:21
#1
Arthur Cramer
Are the Liberals uisng fear mongering over Sepratism to try and win their way back to power
Tue, 2012-09-04 20:26
#2
Survey says, "yes".
The big Liberal tactic over the next four years will be to try and goad Quebec voters into abandoning the NDP for the Bloc, because that's the only possible way the Liberals can EVER reduce the NDP seat count enough to move back into what they see as their "natural place" as one of the two largest parties.
They know they have no hope of making significant gains at the NDP's expense in the ROC in 2015, so all they can do is to try and break the federal NDP grip on Quebec through a revival of Bloc support. It's all they've got.
Tue, 2012-09-04 20:28
#3
Arthur Cramer
Ken, how do you think the NDP should fight this? What do we "need", if that is the right word, to say about the "Sherbrooke Accord"?
Tue, 2012-09-04 20:31
#4
alan smithee
My farourite was Charest using Les Nordiques to gather support...Embarassingly desperate.
Tue, 2012-09-04 21:36
#5
Charest was using an NHL franchise that moved to Colorado years ago to build support? Or did you mean something else?
Tue, 2012-09-04 21:46
#6
alan smithee
Charest was using an NHL franchise that moved to Colorado years ago to build support? Or did you mean something else?
He warned that a PQ government would kill any chance of a return of the Nordiques.
Tue, 2012-09-04 21:49
#7
Desperation all around.
Tue, 2012-09-04 22:24
#8
Arthur Cramer
More Bob Rae fear mongering, at Huff Post, Quebec Separation: Don't Be Indifferent To Marois And Breakup Of Canada, Says Bob Rae, http://www.huffinygtonpost.ca/2012/09/04/quebec-separation-marois-bob-ra.... More Rae mischief, disgusting. The man makes me sick to my stomach. His leadership tells you everything you need to know what is in the hearts and souls of the LPC and its minions, and more then enough motivation to finish the process of relegating the Libs to the dust bin of history, a fate they deserve. Extreme, maybe, but that is how I see it.
Tue, 2012-09-04 23:34
#9
Yeah the Liberals are trying this, from coming to protest Mulcair's presence during his speech in the Waterloo Kitchener riding, sicking pet Bloggers on the NDP, and that's only the beginning.
Its all going to blow up in thier face hard. For one thing it allows Mulcair to brag about his work on federalism, two its going to cost them,support in Quebec, three they have to try and answer how they would enforce Quebec staying in Canada in the event of 51 percent, four they'd have to explain why instead of focusing on building a Canada Quebecer can proud to be a part of and have Quebec willing to sign the constitution they instead obsessed with being defeated. Marios is in no position to advance the cause of sovergienty.
The Liberals are going to try and stir up a crisis where there is none and end up holding the bag, just like Dalton did with teachers.
If Mulcair does create a Quebec NDP and it wins, the Liberals will be doublely f*cked. Mulcair is already two steps or more ahead of the Liberals.
Wed, 2012-09-05 07:00
#10
autoworker
It's not all about Quebec. Besides, there'll probably be another election there before 2015. Meanwhile, with the LPQ as the Official Opposition, sans Charest (and the prospect of two Liberal leadership contests), plenty of opportunity presents itself in rebuilding the Federalist brand, in Quebec and Canada, without pandering to Separatists.
Wed, 2012-09-05 08:29
#11
http://buckdogpolitics.blogspot.ca/2012/09/professional-partisan-liberal...
Buck Dog points to another Liberal attempt smearing the NDP. You'd think they'd have the,wits to back off with the tradgety that just occurred, that this might just not be the time to stir tensions up, that it might look bad. I don't want to exploit the moment, I just don't them making things worse. They can go back to smearing us as Seperatists when things cool down.
Wed, 2012-09-05 08:45
#12
Arthur Cramer
It's not all about Quebec. Besides, there'll probably be another election there before 2015. Meanwhile, with the LPQ as the Official Opposition, sans Charest (and the prospect of two Liberal leadership contests), plenty of opportunity presents itself in rebuilding the Federalist brand, in Quebec and Canada, without pandering to Separatists.
Autoworker, from my perspective, it seems to me that there already is a "Fedealist brand in Quebec", in the form of the NDP. I would really like to know whay you mean by your post. Are you saying that only the Libs are capable of representing "the Federalist side"? I just don't get your post in terms of what you are trying to say.
ETA: and given what Bob Rae was quoted as saying in the Huff Post, and the fact that the Libs are salivating on themselves at the prospect of trying to use Sepratist fear mongering as means to spring over the NDP, I would ask why anyone would be surprised at how much unrest their is in Quebec. The Libs don't get off with just walking away from this as if they haven't done anything to contribute to the current stressors that exist around this issue. I would be just as angry if Mulcair was talking like this, but you'll notice, he isn't. Who is the real National Leader of a real National Federal party? I think its pretty damn obvious.
Wed, 2012-09-05 09:05
#13
It's not all about Quebec. Besides, there'll probably be another election there before 2015. Meanwhile, with the LPQ as the Official Opposition, sans Charest (and the prospect of two Liberal leadership contests), plenty of opportunity presents itself in rebuilding the Federalist brand, in Quebec and Canada, without pandering to Separatists.Autoworker, from my perspective, it seems to me that there already is a "Fedealist brand in Quebec", in the form of the NDP. I would really like to know whay you mean by your post. Are you saying that only the Libs are capable of representing "the Federalist side"? I just don't get your post in terms of what you are trying to say.
ETA: and given what Bob Rae was quoted as saying in the Huff Post, and the fact that the Libs are salivating on themselves at the prospect of trying to use Sepratist fear mongering as means to spring over the NDP, I would ask why anyone would be surprised at how much unrest their is in Quebec. The Libs don't get off with just walking away from this as if they haven't done anything to contribute to the current stressors that exist around this issue. I would be just as angry if Mulcair was talking like this, but you'll notice, he isn't. Who is the real National Leader of a real National Federal party? I think its pretty damn obvious.
I'm glad someone said this, because its been in the back of my mind since I read about the shooting, but I didn't want to say anything, because I didn't want to be the guy seen as trying to exploit it, but I'd be lying if I said wasn't thinking the same thing. The Liberals were trying to manufacture a crisis where one did not exist and they may have gotten one.
Wed, 2012-09-05 09:12
#14
autoworker
In all fairness to Mulcair, the pandering proceeded his leadership.
Wed, 2012-09-05 11:41
#15
I've seen no pandering from Mulcair, exactly the opposite.
Wed, 2012-09-05 12:22
#16
It's not like the Liberals are the only ones doing it. Other than a brief mention of the tuition strike the only thing they talked about on CBC The National was the federalism-sovereignty question, and what the results meant with respect to that.They even used their business segment to compare a sovereign Quebec to Italy.
Had it been any other provincial election there would have been at least something about the actual political platforms - why the people of the province may have made this decision, and what it means for them.
Instead all they are talking about is this one issue, swearing up and down means nothing, and yet focusing on it to the exclusion of anything else.
Wed, 2012-09-05 12:26
#17
Arthur Cramer
It's not like the Liberals are the only ones doing it. Other than a brief mention of the tuition strike the only thing they talked about on CBC The National was the federalism-sovereignty question, and what the results meant with respect to that.They even used their business segment to compare a sovereign Quebec to Italy.
Had it been any other provincial election there would have been at least something about the actual political platforms - why the people of the province may have made this decision, and what it means for them.
Instead all they are talking about is this one issue, swearing up and down means nothing, and yet focusing on it to the exclusion of anything else.
There is a big difference where the Libs are concerned. The Libs have used the Spectre of Sepratism over and over as a club to threaten Canadians with the extinction of their nation if they didn't vote for "Canada's Natural Governing Party". The Libs are the only ones who have done this in this way. The rhetoric of Rae and the LPC over the last couple of days show that the Libs again see the Seperatist spectre as their means to jump over the NDP in the hope of reinforcing the two major party meme that once dominated Canadian political discourse. The LPC and its minions are concerned only with power. They run left, promise the world, then govern right and deliver the loot to their Bay Street masters. Sorry, where the LPC and Libs are concerned, there IS a big difference!
Wed, 2012-09-05 12:35
#18
Well they certainly have their own spin on it. And I agree with you about their arguments and their motivation.
Roy Romanow was on the news this morning speculating on what Harper's response might be when the new government of Quebec starts pressing him on what he really meant - in concrete terms - when he recognized Quebec as a nation. And in fact, Harper has already weighed in on what he thinks the people of Quebec want.
My point is that there are a number of people in a number of camps for whom sovreignty is ultimately the only issue. I doubt the Liberals are going to be the only ones making political hay with it.
Wed, 2012-09-05 13:42
#19
Deckard
I dont quite understand why the PLC think they can benefit from unity fearmongering or that the people in the ROC see them as good for Canadian unity.
Wed, 2012-09-05 13:49
#20
It's not like the Liberals are the only ones doing it. Other than a brief mention of the tuition strike the only thing they talked about on CBC The National was the federalism-sovereignty question, and what the results meant with respect to that.They even used their business segment to compare a sovereign Quebec to Italy.
Had it been any other provincial election there would have been at least something about the actual political platforms - why the people of the province may have made this decision, and what it means for them.
Instead all they are talking about is this one issue, swearing up and down means nothing, and yet focusing on it to the exclusion of anything else.
There is a big difference where the Libs are concerned. The Libs have used the Spectre of Sepratism over and over as a club to threaten Canadians with the extinction of their nation if they didn't vote for "Canada's Natural Governing Party". The Libs are the only ones who have done this in this way. The rhetoric of Rae and the LPC over the last couple of days show that the Libs again see the Seperatist spectre as their means to jump over the NDP in the hope of reinforcing the two major party meme that once dominated Canadian political discourse.
Yet strangely the heir apparent Trudeau junior also mused publically about CAnada nolonger needing Quebec anymore. Odd that, unless that is Canada equals the LPC to them and his script writers were being cute trying to play both ends against the NDP centre. FAIC the only reason to hope that corrupt old party persists is to continue splitting the right-of centre vote and keep opportunistic a-holes like Rae from trying to reenlist the federal New DEmocrats.
Wed, 2012-09-05 13:52
#21
I dont quite understand why the PLC think they can benefit from unity fearmongering or that the people in the ROC see them as good for Canadian unity.
Becauuse they can't think beyond their own immediate political ends anymore...ever? No matter how insensitive and unseemly? Good question.
Wed, 2012-09-05 13:54
#22
Also on last night's The National, there was a piece about western Canada with the very one-sided message that no one cares whether Quebec stays or goes anymore because the country's power and economic base has shifted out here.
And of course there was that poll not too long ago by Sun Media. Makes me wonder why everyone is pointing the finger at the PQ for undermining federalism.
Wed, 2012-09-05 13:59
#23
Arthur Cramer
Well they certainly have their own spin on it. And I agree with you about their arguments and their motivation.
Roy Romanow was on the news this morning speculating on what Harper's response might be when the new government of Quebec starts pressing him on what he really meant - in concrete terms - when he recognized Quebec as a nation. And in fact, Harper has already weighed in on what he thinks the people of Quebec want.
My point is that there are a number of people in a number of camps for whom sovreignty is ultimately the only issue. I doubt the Liberals are going to be the only ones making political hay with it.
Well, I think that is very fair point to make Alan. So far though, Mulcair has really conducted himself with dignity and passion and respect. I'm hoping he'll continue to do so and that how he reacts to this going forward will help convince Canadians it is time to give the NDP under his leadership a chance to govern for all Canadians.
Wed, 2012-09-05 15:10
#24
autoworker
How far can Mulcair distance himself from Marois' agenda, without alienating both the labour movement, and his Quebec caucus?
Wed, 2012-09-05 16:07
#25
Bob Rae puts focus on centrist Liberals: Choice not just between the Tea Party and the Occupy movement, interim leader tells caucus
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/09/05/pol-liberals-focus-on-staking-out-centre.html
Anyone still have progressive friends/family that still vote Liberal?
Wed, 2012-09-05 16:28
#26
Without getting into his comparisons between the parties - because clearly that is marketing - I don't have a problem with the centrist argument at all.
Not that I intend to vote Liberal anytime soon.
Wed, 2012-09-05 17:03
#27
Mulcair will look at Marios' proposals and decide for himself what he will support and not support. He's already nixed EI, saying the program needs to be national to allow for worker mobility and that makes sense. Maybe he'll go a different way on the cultural stuff, I don't know. Case by case. A balanced approach, I don't forsee it being the challenge that the msm portray it as.
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulcairs-ndp-plots-new-course...
Wed, 2012-09-05 18:39
#28
autoworker
Bob Rae puts focus on centrist Liberals: Choice not just between the Tea Party and the Occupy movement, interim leader tells caucus
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/09/05/pol-liberals-focus-on-staking-out-centre.html
Anyone still have progressive friends/family that still vote Liberal?
Progressive or not, it's a pretty good line.
Wed, 2012-09-05 19:14
#29
If Kinsella said the sky was blue, I'd want independent evidence. In triplicate.
The sour grapes on display in his latest piece of drivel is amazing to observe. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that if those same Quebec voters who voted NDP in 2011 had done the 'right thing' and voted Liberal, all would somehow be forgiven.
I am looking forward to contributing to Matt Kellway's re-election campaign, and unequivocally kicking Kinsella's butt to the kerb.
Wed, 2012-09-05 19:14
#30
So, over at the good old Huff Post they are speculating the LPC sees the Qubec election and the spectre of Sepratisim as a way to regain power. What do you think the NDP needs to do to counter this? How does this fit into the issue of the "Sherbrook Accord"? Will the Libs be successful in doing this. If Trudeua embraces this when he becomes party leader, will he be unstoppable. Finally, what does this say the LPC, Liberals in general, and Trudeau in particular?
In my opinion, the answer depends on how stupid one imagines the Liberal poobahs are. I believe that if national unity became an urgent issue, this would mostly benefit the NDP, of all the federalist parties, because Mulcair is the most popular politician in Quebec, and he would be lionized by the media as the staunch defender of Canada. So, if the Liberal decision makers have a clue, they will not try to push this issue, since it would marginalize them even more than they already are.
How far can Mulcair distance himself from Marois' agenda, without alienating both the labour movement, and his Quebec caucus?
As far as I can see, Mulcair has perfect pitch, when it comes to Quebec politics. He has remained very popular for nearly a decade in the public consciousness. I see no reason to think that he would lose any of his caucus, when he is such a master of the issues.
Wed, 2012-09-05 21:48
#31
It's not all about Quebec. Besides, there'll probably be another election there before 2015. Meanwhile, with the LPQ as the Official Opposition, sans Charest (and the prospect of two Liberal leadership contests), plenty of opportunity presents itself in rebuilding the Federalist brand, in Quebec and Canada, without pandering to Separatists.
When you use the word "Separatists" in your posts, the smug, withering, arrogant contempt you apply to the term conjures images in my mind of the way British prime ministers, in the time of the Raj and rule from Dublin Castle, spoke of Irish nationalists and Indian anti-colonialists(and of suffragettes and trade unionists as well)-And of the way National Party cabinet ministers in South Africa used to refer to Nelson Mandela and his comrades in the anti-apartheid struggle. Please don't take that kind of quasi-imperialist tone when you post here-it's embarrassing and sounds reactionary.
Wed, 2012-09-05 22:02
#32
Progressive or not, it's a pretty good line.Bob Rae puts focus on centrist Liberals: Choice not just between the Tea Party and the Occupy movement, interim leader tells caucus
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/09/05/pol-liberals-focus-on-staking-out-centre.html
Anyone still have progressive friends/family that still vote Liberal?
How can it be in ANY way progressive to act as if the values of the Occupy movement are unacceptable?
There's nothing to the right of Occupy that's distinguishable from Harperism.
(on edit)and where the f#$k does Bob Rae get off talking about the era when aboriginal Canadians didn't have the right to vote?...none of the Liberal governments that came to power between 1873 and 1957 ever introduced legislation to GIVE them the vote! It was Diefenbaker, silly old-fashioned center-parted hair and all, who finally pushed through the franchise for aboriginal Canadians.
Wed, 2012-09-05 22:08
#33
Arthur Cramer
Progressive or not, it's a pretty good line.Bob Rae puts focus on centrist Liberals: Choice not just between the Tea Party and the Occupy movement, interim leader tells caucus
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/09/05/pol-liberals-focus-on-staking-out-centre.html
Anyone still have progressive friends/family that still vote Liberal?
How can it be in ANY way progressive to act as if the values of the Occupy movement are unacceptable?
There's nothing to the right of Occupy that's distinguishable from Harperism.
(on edit)and where the f#$k does Bob Rae get off talking about the era when aboriginal Canadians didn't have the right to vote?...none of the Liberal governments that came to power between 1873 and 1957 ever introduced legislation to GIVE them the vote! It was Diefenbaker, silly old-fashioned center-parted hair and all, who finally pushed through the franchise for aboriginal Canadians.
Ken, thanks for putting it so starkly and clearly. I am so sick and tired of having some Lib hack tell me how the NDP stole the future from the Aboriginal community because we "wouldn't support the Kelowna accord". When you ask them why they took so long, they don't hesitate to tell you how its your fault things aren't better now. Such unbelieveable arrogance, and lack of respect for their fellow citiznes. It is rich to hear that from the Libs, to say the least.
Oh, by the way, I agree with you. Rae's contempt for occupy only proves how much he and the LPC are beholden to the Bay Street Bankers and their other minions. I think a key to success is going to be reminding Canadians of the entire LPC record. We have to not let them get away with running away from history once more. We need to nail them and nail them hard!
Thu, 2012-09-06 07:07
#34
Well said Author!
Thu, 2012-09-06 07:44
#35
Wasn't Bob Rae tossing Occupy's salad when it started out? Did he just "change" perspectives because they couldn't cultivate "Occupy" to be foot soldiers for the LPC? Similar thing happened down here in the US, where the Democrats (including their rank and file partisans) were all about Occupy, until it turned out they couldn't manipulate them for their own ends. Then the Democratic party mayors sicked the dogs on them.
Anyway, I do remember a quote of Bob Rae going something along the lines of how it shows how the public is disgruntled or some shit. Perhaps people should be reminded of that?
Thu, 2012-09-06 08:01
#36
It sounds reactionary simply because it is; holding the people of Québec and whatever our choices may be in the utmost contempt. And is forgetting that many of these evil "separatists" are your fellow workers and trade-unionists. And that in real life, during the Québec FTAA summit (ZLÉA - ALCA), many comrades from the CAW in Ontario travelled to Québec to lend their support and we all had a lively protest and a fine time together.
Pander is such an odd verb choice in this context: I've heard it before, from people such as Galganov (who turns out to hate Franco-Ontarians, most of whom are certainly not "separatists", as much as he hates Québécois francophones).
Fri, 2012-09-07 14:19
#37
Arthur Cramer
Found this on the CBC website:
"Just hours before the polls were set to close in Kitchener-Waterloo, embattled provincial Liberals launched a last-ditch effort to turn an Ontario by-election into, of all things, a referendum on the federal NDP's position on Quebec succession -- with more than a little help from Liberal MP Justin Trudeau, who took time away from his busy schedule of playing coy on future leadership ambitions to hit the telephonic hustings, robocall-style: "
These guys will stop at nothing. They'd sooner endanger the nation then give up the tought of losing power. Its shameful.
Fri, 2012-09-07 15:03
#38
I think Justin T showed remarkably poor political judgment in letting himself get sucked into recording such an embarrassing robo-call. I like how at the end of the article Kady O'Malley write:
"In any case, despite the ostensibly unity-smashing addition of one (1) New Democrat to the MPP roster at Queen's Park, the country appears to have survived the night. Trudeau's credibility, however, may have taken a hit, at least as far as #KitWat voters. "
Fri, 2012-09-07 19:04
#39
Since when does Justin shown good political judgement? This is the guy who thought swearing at a cabinate minister was a good idea, I hate Kent too, but it was unprofessional and made him look immature. His silly comments on soveriegnty. Rumours that he's planning not having anyone over 40 in a leader role in his leadership campaign. Calling Mulcair angery old man. And who else would be behind Liberal Who? This appears to be classic Justin. It fits the pattern. Expect more it'll be a long campaign for the Liberal leadership.
Fri, 2012-09-07 19:41
#40
http://blunt-objects.blogspot.ca/2012/09/northern-gateway-could-destroy-...
Its ironic that with the Libs so obsessed with the NDP as "secret seperatists", they overlook seperatists in thier own midst, BC seperatists.
Serious the Liberals need to chill, Dix and Mulcair won't let it happen, at least not to completion. Not to mention native groups amoung others will oppose it in the courts. Anyone who think enbridge isn't dead is kidding themselves.
Fri, 2012-09-07 21:54
#41
dacckon
What Justin did was pathetic, a robocall attack in an Ontarian provicial election...
I don't even understand how he could link a byelection in the province of Ontario to...
Sigh.