Call Out: PsychOUT: A Conference for Organizing Resistance Against Psychiatry

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Sun, 2013-01-13 12:14

Sineed

Orthomolecular medicine debunked:

Quote:
The human body has limited capacity to use vitamins in its metabolic activities. When vitamins are consumed in excess of the body's physiological needs, they function as drugs rather than vitamins. A few situations exist in which high doses of vitamins are known to be beneficial, but they must still be used with caution because of potential toxicity. For example, large doses of niacin can be very useful as part of a comprehensive, medically supervised program for controlling abnormal blood cholesterol levels. "Orthomolecular" practitioners go far beyond this, however, by prescribing large amounts of supplements to all or most of the patients who consult them. This approach can result in great harm to psychiatric patients when used instead of effective medications.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ortho.html

Here's an interesting article on Dr. Abram Hoffer, the originator of the pyroluria hypothesis and advocate for vitamin treatment of schizophrenia.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/pyroluria-and-orthomolecul...

Sun, 2013-01-13 17:05

#53

Goggles Pissano

I have used high doses of vitamin C and Vitamin B3 for 15 years with no adverse effects, and so have all people who have followed Hoffer's practices. Listen to Margot Kidder. She agrees with my position.

Sun, 2013-01-13 17:06

#54

Goggles Pissano

No one has ever been harmed for using orthomolecular medicine.

Mon, 2013-01-14 23:36

#55

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I only wish that were true. Sadly, it isn't. Here are some observed harms of megadoses of various vitamins:

Quote:

Vitamin A, vitamin D, selenium, iron, magnesium, zinc and other supplements can cause complications if too much is taken. Occasional deaths have been reported from iron or magnesium overdoses, mostly in children. Overdoses of minerals may also cause vomiting, diarrhea, hair loss, rashes, and diseases of the nails. Zinc and molybdenum can cause the body’s copper levels to drop, which may cause anemia and low white blood cell counts. High doses of pyridoxine (vitamin B6) have been linked with reports of pain, numbness in the hands and legs, and trouble walking. Vitamin A overdoses can cause headache, drowsiness, irritability, vomiting, loss of hair and eyebrows, and peeling of the skin. Too much vitamin D can cause poor appetite, nausea, vomiting, weakness, itching, and permanent kidney damage.

Some supplements can raise the risk of cancer or heart disease. In addition, the potential interactions between supplements and drugs and herbs should be considered. Some of these combinations may be dangerous. Always tell your doctor and pharmacist about any supplements and herbs you are taking.

Antioxidant supplements can interfere with chemotherapy or radiation therapy. Patients who are in cancer treatment should consult with a knowledgeable physician before taking vitamins, minerals, or other supplements. Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer may have serious health consequences.

http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/herbsvitaminsandminerals/orthomolecular-medicine

Tue, 2013-01-15 15:38

#56

Goggles Pissano

This is not true. Dr. Hoffer has written a book called Vitamin C and Cancer: Discovery, Recovery, Controversy.

In this book, and from his own personal experience as being a medical doctor in practice for over 65 years, people taking radiation and chemo have much fewer side effects from their treatments if they are on very high doses of vitamins and minerals. They respond faster, and heal faster than those who are not on these treatments.

There are two fatalaties from taking vitamins and minerals a year in North America. There are 165,000 fatalities from taking prescribed medications in their proper dosages each year in the United States alone, and that is with taking the proper dosage.

Vitamins and minerals lower the risk of heart disease and cancer. It is a deficiency in vitamins and minerals which cause heart disease and cancer, which can be corrected when they are prescribed vitamins and minerals at their body's proper levels.

Vitamin D is very safe. These symptoms occur when one takes too much Vitamin D2, and not vitamin D3. People get vitamin D3 when they shop for vitamins at the store, so they are safe.

Some people have managed to take as much as 150,000 IU's of Vitamin A every day for many months without any side effects. Mainstream medicine's concerns are oh so spurious indeed.

Vitamin B6 is very safe in levels up to 2,000 mg per day.

AND PHYSICIANS ARE NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE. THEY HAVE HAD 1 HOUR OF TRAINING PERTAINING TO VITAMINS AND NUTRITION. THAT IS NOT KNOWLEGE NOR IS IT EXPERTISE. THEY DON'T KNOW. THEY DON'T CARE. THEY ARE NOT TRAINED TO GIVE PROPER ADVICE BECAUSE WHAT LITTLE THEY DO KNOW IS UNSUBSTANTIATED CRAP.

ALL Repeat studies reporting positive benefits of vitamins in any area of health have all been sabotaged to fail. For instance, if a team of researchers study the effects of taking vitamin C 1000 mg per day for six months, and find that taking vitamin C reduces the incidence of colds by up to 50%, the repeat study will use 10 mg of vitamin C for 3 weeks, and then proclaim that the findings were false and unconfirmed.

People don't know because the doctors themselves don't know. Because the CMA and the AMA with the backing of the drug companies do not want people to know that they have safer, cheaper, and more effective alternatives than their drugs which they peddle to the public, drugs which are indeed TOXIC.

Tue, 2013-01-15 21:37

#57

Goggles Pissano

Dr. Atkins, who promoted the Atkins low carb diet back in the 1970s learned the hard way the truth about the mainstream medical profession and their so-called science. He was invited to participate in an AMA consensus panel on the nutritional value of a low carb diet, and this is what he learned from that consensus panel which he remarks about in his book, Dr. Atkins' Vita-Nutrient Solution...

"That event turned out to be a my career-changing turning point. Very few doctors ever question the pronouncements of a medical consensus panel, and I had been no different. However, after this harrrowing incident I became instantly programmed to question these edicts at every turn. I found examples of improper recommendations wherever I looked--recommendations for unnessary and futile surgery, recommendations to use dangerous medications instead of safer agents, recommendations for invasive and risky diagnostic procedures that provide less information than safer tests--and perhaps, worst of all, total refusal to consider vita nutrient therapies. Mainstream medicines' rejection of orthomolecular medicine led directly to my personal investigation of it and subsequent acceptance of its principles." pp, 33-4.

On page 32. he writes, "The cozy interdependence of the major food industry giants and many nutrition department heads at major institutions has been well documented."

The same can be said for the pharmaceutical industry who publish false and unsubstantiated garbage about nutrition.

Just think for one minute. People were made to be self-correcting and self healing. Food and nutrients are the bricks and mortar for the body to rebuild itself, which is what we have been born to do since birth. Give your body the nutrients it needs and your body will take those materials and repair itself. How people have been programmed and deluded into thinking that patented drugs are what people really need, and not proper nutrition.

The medical mainstream have people believing that vitamins, which are safe even at very high doses, are toxic and dangerous, but pharmaceutical drugs, which are toxic and dangerous and kill 165,000 people a year alone simply by using the prescribed dosages, are safe and necessary for people. People also turn to these doctors for leadership and expertise on vitamins when they have had only 1 hour of formal training in vitamins and nutrition in their curriculums, and what little they do learn has been falsified by these pharmaceutically backed verification studies which are fraudulent. THAT IS NOT EXPERTISE. Doctors simply do not know. What they learn is wrong. They are authorities on unsubstantiated garbage.

Dr. Atkins, Dr. Abram Hoffer, and Dr. Carl Pfeiffer have written extensively about vitamins, minerals, and amino acids. These sources are credible for researching vitamins, minerals, and amino acids. Their authority can be trusted and no one has been harmed by them in over 65 years of practice.

Dotors love to speak authoritively on matters they simply do not understand and they do not know anything about, and what little they have learned in school and from their sources they cite from is all wrong.

Dr. Abram Hoffer was the director of Psychiatric Research at the University of Saskatchewan. He has used vitamins and minerals and amino acids to cure many people who were mentally ill. He also found that when he used his change in diet and vitamin program, as these people became well mentally, their other illness they had would disappear like arthritis, auto-immune diseases, heart disease, gastro-intestinal disorders, and cancer. Not everyone who takes vitamins and a change in diet will recover from cancer, but they do live longer, and they also do not suffer from the side effects of chemotherapy and radiation therapy that other people do. He does not make any cure announcements, but he did catalogue his discoveries from over 65 years of practice, which is very admirable indeed.

Tue, 2013-01-15 21:38

#58

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Hoffer only did observational studies. His work failed in replication - in other words, other researchers, as part of the scientific method, have done the same experiments and consistently did not get his results. Nice theory, but it didn't pan out, just like thousands of other theories. Just because he wrote a book doesn't mean he was right. Hell, every crank out there is writing a book full of assertions and beliefs that don't add up when subjected to review and meta-analysis (when they have a basis in fact at all).

Have you got a link to the number of fatalities? An official one, that is, not some crank pulling it out of his ass.

Vitamins and mineral supplements have been shown not to have an effect on cancers. Did you not see the link to cancer.org? Did you actually read it? Vitamin A can cause blindness in extreme doses. I don't think that's a trivial problem, although perhaps you do. I couldn't say.

Physicians' expertise where vitamin supplements are concerned will vary with discipline and specialty, however, I would like to see some confirmation that they get one hour in 8 years of training. Do you have a link? Some knowledge of curriculum? Again, it would be nice to see something some quack didn't claim in order to fleece you on his remedies.

And of course we have the inevitable conspiracy. Good grief. Well, that one I can't help you with - other than to point out that a conspiracy so deep and wide would require more buy-in and total secrecy than any conspiracy we have yet to see. Got some evidence? If all you've got are people with egos so big that they can't address criticism with results instead of allegations, you haven't got much.

Tue, 2013-01-15 22:21

#59

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Hoooookay. Look, you've apparently already decided that you want to believe this and are refusing to look at the full range of facts. Sorry about this, but you're wrong. Sineed's given you links, so have I and we've explained why we aren't buying your argument. Dude, it's bullshit.

It would be nice if you were dealing in reality, but apparently you aren't willing to, so I'm out.

Tue, 2013-01-15 22:36

#60

Goggles Pissano

Sadly, when there are way too many fools out there dismissing vitamin treatments as conspiracy theories and other drivel, and so few people actually using vitamins and nutrition as their main line of treatment, all one is limited to is anecdotes. I have videos of medical doctors describing the amount of training they had in vitamins and nutrition when they were in medical school. I cannot link you to one, sorry.

These are not ego quacks. They don't look nor act like ego quacks. They would not have their reputations tarnished and be labelled as such by their peers if they didn't know that they were doing the right thing. On the contrary, I would call people who insist on peddling dangerous toxic drugs as being ego quacks.

Dr. Hyla Cass, a professor of Psychiatry at Berkeley once said, "of every 100 students who graduate from Psychiatry, only 3 are able to figure out that their drugs are not working and that they need to look elsewhere for remedies and solutions. They believe that what they learn in school, that the drugs they are taught to administer, is accurate and true." Only 3 percent of psychiatrists learn to think outside the box.

As for vitamin A and blindness. Vitamin A is used to treat night blindness. People who go blind, but happen at the same time to have taken vitamin A, to an uneducated quack ie. an M.D., they would attribute the blindness to the consumption of the vitamin A. I can see it happening, but vitamin A does not cause blindness in any of my readings. A deficiency of vitamin A causes night blindness.

And, according to Dr. Carl Pfeiffer, with prudential administration of vitamin A, it would be very hard to overdose on vitamin A. Acute hypervitaminosis A has been reported in some adults. It is caharacterized by spontaneous onset and remisision and may occur in an othewise normal individual who has consumbed a large dose of vitamin A over a short period of time. He reports overdose symptoms as peeling of skin, red gums, nausea, vomiting, headaches, vertigo, irritability, drowsiness, seizures and eventually coma. this is very rare, and would take very huge dosages to achieve these results.

Tue, 2013-01-15 23:05

#61

Goggles Pissano

Good for you. I was able to cure myself from schizophrenia on my own. I speak from personal experience.

I have witnessed a paralyzed boy recover from paralysis from the neck down simply by taking vitamins.

Margot Kidder writes eloquently about how orthomolecular medicine was the only thing that was able to cure her mental illness.

I was in a car accident and I cut my down time in half by taking vitamins,

Our neighbour recovered from cancer on vitamins.

A lady had two schizophrenic children who were unable to walk. All the neurologists said that her children were going to be that way for life. A doctor put her children on vitamins and they are fine today. BTW, when she got angry at the neurologists, they had the doctor who CURED her children stripped of his licence to practice medicine for using unorthodox practices.

Sister Theresa Feist, a nun, recovered from Schizophrenia from using vitamins. She put another nun who was blind and crippled with MS on vitamins, and she recovered too.

I have explained to you how your sources you love to quote from are not substantiated and have been fraudulently fabricated for a reason.

There are people out there who want to get well, and you are doing a disservice to these people with your mainstream garbage. Go take your major tranquillizers, go take your anti depressants, and go get your ECT, and other physical and chemical restraints. There are other options out there. The ones who don't succeed are the ones whose doctors don't want them to succeed and those who are too scared to live life in the real world with all the responsibilities of adulthood being well.

Just like the doctor who was stripped of his licence to practice medicine for treating those children who are well because of his treatments, of the 3 percent of doctors who can think outside the box, many of those few do not want to risk losing their licences and face the rebuke from the 97% who do not know how to question. That is not ego-mania, but people genuinely concerned for the health and well-being of their patients.

People fear what they don't understand, and as for you, you cannot educate the stupid. You have absolutely no ability to think through your sources and understand the politics of medicine and medical research. People like you are to be pitied.

Tue, 2013-01-15 23:18

#62

ryanw

Goggles Pissano wrote:

I was able to cure myself from schizophrenia on my own. I speak from personal experience.

I'd like to hear more about your personal experiences, I would like to better understand

Tue, 2013-01-15 23:32

#63

Goggles Pissano

When you read Dr. Hoffer's books from cover to cover like I have, and all his books, he talks about these research findings discrediting his work. He elaborates on the methodology they used to discredit his work. I know what sources you are referencing, and I have read how they were used to discredit nutrition based medicine.

Orthomolecular medicine did not take off and become mainstream, not becuase it doesn't work and is quackery, but rather because most doctors do not understand it and are trained not to understand it. Of the tiny minority who do understand, they are afraid of venturing into new territory for fear of losing their licences to practice medicine.

When I say that patent laws govern the success of medical treatments, that is not a conspiracy theory but rather economic common sense, and political lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry at all levels of government. It is not a conspiracy theory to suggest that profit margins are highest when people consume packaged, processed, long shelf-life food with food preservatives and food dyes in them which are detreimental to our health and mental well-being, and profit margins are lowest with short shelf-life foods like meat, dairy, fruits and vegetables. This is economic common sense, and our social and political reality.

The human consequences to this is mental illness, hyperactive children hooked on ritalin, and cancer.

Wed, 2013-01-16 01:10

#64

ryanw

its hard to know how best to support your friends and family during an illness, harder still to effectively support those people you don't yet know

I think its really nice we have an Internet where we can ask stuff, and learn from a hundred different people every day and its not always teacher/student where the other person knows more but having that conversation does alot to inspire me and take me in new directions

I like having people to talk with, even if its not discussing 'important' stuff

Wed, 2013-01-16 01:20

#65

Goggles Pissano

There are two videos put out by the

International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine

16 Florence Ave,

Toronto, Ontario

M2N 1E9

These videos are:

Masks of Madness and Feed Your Head.

They are $25.00 each. I do not expect you to purchase them, but check with your local library to see if they have them, and if not then maybe they would like to invest in getting them. They are well worth the watch.

Masks of Madness interviews people who have been treated with orthomolecular medicine. Margot Kidder is in that video.

The second one, feed Your Head, focuses on Dr. Abram Hoffer and his research. That video has a clip of Sister Teresa Feist in it receiving an award from the Centre of Orthomolecular Research for her years of active service in treating people. She is a nun who was schizophrenic herself. She was institutionalized twice, and was treated by Dr. Hoffer and fully recovered. She then devoted the rest of her life to healing others through orthomolecular methods. As I said, she treated sister Adelle who had advanced stage Multiple Sclerosis, and she took her home with her and cured her of MS. The two of them set up a care home in Lebret, Saskatchewan where, for years, they looked after terminally ill people. Sister Adelle was in her late 70s and was on her feet on the go for 16 hours a day. People had to force her to sit down and stop to eat. All those years of being so sick, she felt she had to make up for it while she could.

I have met both those two nuns myself. They were two truly amazing women. I was in Lebret last summer, and the home is shut down. Sister Adelle would be in her 90s likely if she is still alive. Sister Teresa Feist would likely be in her early 80s now. I would like to know where she is now.

Wed, 2013-01-16 01:36

#66

Goggles Pissano

RyanW,

I had a nervous breakdown when I was nineteen due to an assault. I was referred to a psychiatrist. I told him about my abuse and he diagnosed me as having a case of endogenous depression, he said that was depression for no apparent reason. I was prescribed an anti-depressant. I got seizures while taking this, and I told him so. He told me that I was not having seizures. I told him that I was. I went to my GP and said that I was having seizures, and he said that I wasn't. I didn't trust them and I did not take any medication.

Years later, I read a book called OUTRAGEOUS PRACTICES: The Alarming Truth about how Medicine Mistreats Women by Leslie Laurence and Beth Weinhouse. In that book, they mention how the antidepressant Wellbutrin had to be recalled in England because it caused seizures in so many young women.

Dr. Carl Pfeiffer wrote in one of his books that people who are deficient in zinc will suffer seizures when on certain types of antidepressants.

Zinc and vitamin B6 deficiency is linked to pyrolluria, a condition linked to some people having schizophrenia. I took zinc and B6 and feel much better on it. I am pyrolluric, and respond to the zinc and b6 treatment for pyrolluria. This kind of schizophrenia is less severe than the other types from what I am told.

Anyhow, a few years after having my nervous breakdown and suffering depression, I started to hear voices. Gradually, they became worse, and I felt like my brain was rotting in the middle. I felt like my brain was a block of cement. I would sit in my chair all day and stare at the wall. I could not walk into a classroom and watch people staring at me. I would get an overwhealming feeling of paranoia. I knew that I was being paranoid and that it was not rational, but I could not control it, and I certainly felt it. I could not attend my classes. I went two days laughing, and I could not stop. I felt bugs crawling under my skin. I was lying in bed, and I heard a train engine coming in through the bedroom wall. It would take me 2 1/2 hours just to get up, have a shower, get dressed, cut an orange, eat the orange, and go outside. I have no idea how or why it took so long for me to do that. With my vision, everything became dark.

I went to a doctor who told me that I had schizophrenia and he treated me like garbage. He would not let me leave his office until I consented to seeing a psychiatrist. When I got home, I cancelled my psychiatrist appointment.

I got the book at the library, Dr. Hoffer, Vitamin B3 and Schizophrenia: Discovery, Recovery, Controversy. I read the book.

I bought the vitamins and quit sugar and dairy. In one week, I was sitting in my chair, and everything started to get bright visually again. I knew things were starting to work.

I got an exemption for missing all my classes and I had to write a 75% final exam in my classes. I had 0 out of 25 on my existing work. One month later, I was well enough to concentrate on my studies. I would study 12-14 hours a day. I finished that term with a 72% average. That means 72 out of 75. That means that I averaged 96% on my final exams.

5 months after the day I started taking vitamins, I was totally well. I heard my last voice in July of that year, and I have been well ever since. Sometimes if I have had little sleep for a few days, I need to take time to catch up on my sleep, and I have to watch my stress levels, and sometimes, to help me sleep and get better, I will go back on vitamins for short periods of time, but I have been well for 15 years with no symptoms of any kind.

For fear of getting sick again, I have restricted myself to low stress jobs. I live alone and totally support myself on my earingings at work, which I am proud of, and have managed to be free and independent all my life.

If you go this route, you have to go about it alone. Dr. Hoffer writes that it is important to link yourself up with a doctor who specializes in orthomolecular nutrition. But since they are few and far between, he admits that lack of access to help is no excuse. Then it is important to do things yourself.

No one understands, and there will be no one to support you. If people hear that you have schizophrenia, they treat you like you are ill and they avoid you because there is such a stigma to being mentally ill. If you say that you recovered from schizophrenia, something they KNOW is an incurable illness, they then KNOW that you are schizophrenic because you are being delusional. It is a delusion of reality to believe you are well from an illness that is deemed by mainstream medicine to be incurable. They fear you and run away.

If you are to have any friends, you have to be quiet about your past, and you have to conceal it from everybody because you set yourself up to lose if you try to talk about it, and you are the only one who gets hurt, and you have to deal with everyone else's total ignorance and stupidity on the subject.

And what hurts most of all is that you cannot save other people. You see for yourself how it works in your life, and you stumble across the lives of other people who have been helped by it, but people still refuse to truly listen to what I believe is the medicine of the future. I honestly do not think that history will be kind to the doctors of today. You cannot eliminate nutrition from health and expect to get anywhere. It is the doctors themselves who should be listening and taking the lead on this, but they don't. They are in bed with the drug companies.

I believe that I am well today because I did not go on any of the drugs. There are no people who are mentally ill today who have not been on medication, What are the long term consequenses of these drugs? And what or who are you going to compare these long term consequences to?

Wed, 2013-01-16 02:24

#67

Goggles Pissano

If you read what I wrote, his work failed on replication because the studies were designed to fail on replication. The replication studies did not use his methodology. They used 1/100th the level of vitamin C for 1/10th the time. Dr. Hoffer said, "a housewife knows that if a cake recipe calls for 3 eggs at room temperature and 3 cups of flour, and the housewife uses 1 egg at room temperature, and 3 tbsp of flour, you are not going to get a cake but rather a flop. The same is true for the replication studies to discredit the vitamin trials. It's funny how housewives can follow a recipe, but medical researchers cannot.

Anybody can follow the money. Pharmabusiness is big business. Vitamins and the success of proper nutrition cuts into the profit motive in the pharmaceutical industry. You cannot patent vitamins, and thay is why they are maligned.

A neighbour of ours had cancer. It had metasticized to all his body and he was given 4 weeks to live. He went on a strong vitamin program and 5 months later went back to his oncologist, and his cancer was all gone. I've seen it for myself that it works against cancer.

Read up on Margot Kidder who was cured with orthomolecular medicine. She said that she had access to the very best psychiatrists in Beverley Hills, and the entire United States. She said that Dr. Hoffer was the only one who was able to cure her of her mental illness.

Dr. Hoffer spoke out against controlled studies. He said that when a treatment is shown to work, it is unethical to withold that treatment from a certain group of people who need it, so yes, he did do observational studies.

Wed, 2013-01-16 03:05

#68

Goggles Pissano

For those of you who wanted stats on fatalities while on prescription medicatons...

Fatalities of prescription medications following the correct dosages

Fatalities from taking vitamins, minerals, and amino acids...

Vitamin Toxicity

Wed, 2013-01-16 03:20

#69

Goggles Pissano

Ryan,

Thank you for your interest and support. However, I disagree with you in reference to the importance of this. This may not be important to you, but I think it is very important. When people go to doctors because they are not well, they deserve to receive proper treatment and not the second rate remedies they currently receive from the medical community. People have a right to be well, and doctors have a responsibility to offer better services to the people they are treating.

And this isn't just psychiatry. This is about getting pills for anything and everything that ails you. This is about doctors telling me after I was assaulted that I had depression for no apparent reason and being able to get away with it.

This is about psychiatrists designing labels to use against people with no scientific basis and putting them in the DSM, and then using these labels against women in courts to deny them custody of their children.

You can find the same lack of science and strong resistance in endocrinology, oncology, neurology, etc.

The specialists today can give you an accurate diagnosis but they are unable to properly treat people. That is why there is no cure for parkinsons disease, multiple sclerosis, cancer, lupus, neurological disorders, etc. I think this is very important and we have lost 65 quality years of properly trying to find cures, and it is the people who are sick who are left to suffer.

Wed, 2013-01-16 09:12

#70

ennir

Thanks for your posts Goggles Pissano, I am glad you found your way to health. :)

In my experience there is little support on Babble for alternative medicine, quite the opposite actually. lol

Wed, 2013-01-16 11:50

#71

onlinediscountanvils

ennir wrote:
Thanks for your posts Goggles Pissano, I am glad you found your way to health. :)

In my experience there is little support on Babble for alternative medicine, quite the opposite actually. lol

I don't mind that there's little support. I'm fairly agnostic/skeptical about much of it. I just wish that whenever people share their own positive experiences with "alternative" medicine there was less of an impulse to "debunk" and condescendingly deny that person's own experience.

Wed, 2013-01-16 12:41

#72

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

The plural of anecdote is not data, for one thing. For another, we don't know if any of it is true. Personally, I think encouraging people to do things to their bodies that don't work and are potentially harmful is a really bad idea. And if it worked, they wouldn't have to call it "alternative" medicine - it would just be medicine.

We don't let people make spurious claims about environmental damage, climate change and a host of other things on babble. We also demand that people put up some evidence from reputable sources. I've often wondered why dubious health practices are exempt, especially when there is a greater liklihood of direct negative effect.

It's not an attempt to look down on anyone, more that I'm concerned that this kind of bullshit is being taken seriously and harm will come to someone. If that comes off as condescension... Well, so be it.

Wed, 2013-01-16 13:10

#73

Goggles Pissano

Going to a psychiatrist and getting drugs which are toxic and dangerous and are based on flimsy scientific evidence is dangerous.

I am not trying to educated the stupid.

There are people out there who have been psychiatrized, and this information is put out there for those who want alternatives to what mainstream medicine has to offer. Those people want and deserve better. Everyone wants to be well. These people have a way to achieve that.

I used to be just as stupid and skeptical. However, I had to hit rock bottom, and seek out alternatives.

How many years did it take for Copernicus and Gallileo's ideas to become accepted? There were flat land idiots laughing at them for years before their ideas became the accepted norm.

Orthomolecular medicine is the medicine of the future, and if we continue to have government funded health care, health care officials will see the long term cost savings of getting people well rather than having them perpetually in and out of hospitals. The people will eventually force things to happen.

In the mean time, the idiots like you can laugh yourselves silly. I really don't care. I am alive, happy, and well, and that is all that counts.

In years down the road, we will all be laughing at you. I know how to live long and healthy, and you don't. lol

Wed, 2013-01-16 14:12

#74

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

GP - I know you're new to babble, so you probably aren't aware of this: Personal attacks are not allowed. Calling people stupid is against the policy. If you want to disagree with my idea, criticise that. If you don't like the position I've outlined in regard to the subject, feel free to call it stupid instead. Calling me an idiot does nothing to further the conversation and I will notify the moderators if you continue.

Wed, 2013-01-16 17:38

#75

Goggles Pissano

I would like to sincerely apologize to all of you. I was not meaning any of you, but myself. I was going to go back to that statement and elaborate before I posted, but I forgot.

When I mention not being able to educate the stupid, I was referring only to myself. Before I hit rock bottom and was forced to seek out alternatives, I was the most resistant to the idea of nutritional medicine.

First of all, nutrition alone could not explain the magnitude of pain that I was experiencing in my life. I did not ever buy the idea of endogenous depression - I knew that I was depressed for a reason, and nutrition sounded like quackery.

Secondly, nutritional medicine sounds like it places the blame for people's own suffering squarely on themselves. And when people have had abuse issues in their lives, nutrition sounds glib, rude, and grossly insensitive.

Thirdly, if the mainstream medical community did not buy into the idea, then it was unfounded, unscientific quackery, and if it did have some science behind it, it was still trivial and light weight and helpful to mild cases of depression at best.

I had to hit rock bottom before I was to open myself to other ideas. I had to find nutritional medicine myself, and experiment with it myself, and see the results myself before I was to be convinced of its benefits. Therefore I understand everyones' skepticism. There was the Royal Skepticism Society for Alternative Medicine, and I was it's founder and president for many years.

I am not trying to educate people who don't like nutritional medicine and don't care. I have lived with the pain of mental illness, and it is the ones who are currently suffering and feel that there is no hope nor alternatives available that I am trying to reach.

One last point. Dr. Abram Hoffer was the Director of Psychiatric Research at the University of Saskatchewan for many years. He practiced psychiatry for 65 years and retired from FULL TIME work at the age of 89. During those 65 years, he was never taken the Boards of the Saskatchewan or British Columbian College of Physicians and Surgeons and stripped of his licence to practice medicine. He always remained a member in good standing with the Canadian and American Psychiatric Associations. During his 65 years of practice, he treated over 10,000 patients. All of them received a change in diet and were prescribed large amounts of vitamins, minerals, and amino acids. No one was harmed by taking these dosages for years and years. No one suffered any toxic side effects. While it is relatively easy to be referred to a psychiatrist anywhere with few exceptions, Dr. Abram Hoffer had a 2 1/2 year waiting list just to be able to get in to see him. None of this sounds like the work of a quack to me. His reputation speaks for itself.

Wed, 2013-01-16 19:17

#76

ryanw

Timebandit wrote:

GP - I know you're new to babble, so you probably aren't aware of this: Personal attacks are not allowed. Calling people despicable is against the policy. If you want to disagree with my idea, criticise that. If you don't like the position I've outlined in regard to the subject, feel free to call it despicable instead. Calling me despicable does nothing to further the conversation and I will notify the moderators if you continue.

Wed, 2013-01-16 20:18

#77

jas

Goggles Pissano wrote:
I would like to sincerely apologize to all of you.

Some of us here understand how difficult it is to engage in dialogue with people who view personal success with certain treatments as somehow "imaginary" or invalid -- unless, of course, those treatments come from recognized "evidence-based" medicine. Of course, the numerous failures in "evidence-based" medicine are usually ascribed to the particular cases, and rarely to the treatment, so you can never have a balanced debate with such folks.

Wed, 2013-01-16 20:29

#78

jas

And to take such a stance in a thread that is obviously a call-out to those who have first-hand experience with psychiatry and mental health services is, imo, counter to the principles of this board.

Wed, 2013-01-16 20:35

#79

ennir

"Hoooookay. Look, you've apparently already decided that you want to believe this and are refusing to look at the full range of facts. Sorry about this, but you're wrong. Sineed's given you links, so have I and we've explained why we aren't buying your argument. Dude, it's bullshit.

It would be nice if you were dealing in reality, but apparently you aren't willing to, so I'm out."

IMV that is a really offensive statement but I gather the writer feels they are within babble limits in speaking in such a manner. It appears to me as rampant mono-mind insisting on arbitrating reality for all of us.

Wed, 2013-01-16 20:55

#80

onlinediscountanvils

jas wrote:
And to take such a stance in a thread that is obviously a call-out to those who have first-hand experience with psychiatry and mental health services is, imo, counter to the principles of this board.

ennir wrote:
IMV that is a really offensive statement

I didn't bother to flag Timebandit's comments because I took her at her word when she implied that she was done, but I agree with these comments with regard to her interventions in this thread.

Wed, 2013-01-16 22:41

#81

Sineed

ennir wrote:
IMV that is a really offensive statement but I gather the writer feels they are within babble limits in speaking in such a manner. It appears to me as rampant mono-mind insisting on arbitrating reality for all of us.

Goggles Pisano wrote:

I have witnessed a paralyzed boy recover from paralysis from the neck down simply by taking vitamins.

Wed, 2013-01-16 22:58

#82

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

jas wrote:

Goggles Pissano wrote:
I would like to sincerely apologize to all of you.

Some of us here understand how difficult it is to engage in dialogue with people who view personal success with certain treatments as somehow "imaginary" or invalid -- unless, of course, those treatments come from recognized "evidence-based" medicine. Of course, the numerous failures in "evidence-based" medicine are usually ascribed to the particular cases, and rarely to the treatment, so you can never have a balanced debate with such folks.

I know, it sucks when the evidence, the big picture, doesn't support what you want to hear. But that doesn't make it untrue. Without evidence you have nothing.

Reality bites sometimes. Doesn't make it any less real.

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:00

#83

Goggles Pissano

I am very sorry for lashing out at some of you. My anger was inappropriate and misdirected.

I have met Dr. Bonnie Burstow many years ago, and the work she does is fantastic and tremendous. I am very much anti-psychiatry. That is why I have posted on this thread. While Dr. Burstow does not believe nor support the works of Orthomolecular medicine, I certainly do, and have experienced first hand its remarkable benefits. I am trying to reach out to only people who want to explore healthy alternatives for themselves.

I believe that people deserve the right to chose options for themselves and to have access to as many resources and services that they may find beneficial to them.

I disagree with the comments posted above mine. I think that what I have to say is very relevant to this thread. Let people make their own decisions for themselves as to whether my interventions are relevant to this thread.

I am not aware if some of you know but Psyched Out conferences are very much anti-psychiatry as it is practised today.

And yes, I believe that orthomolecular medicine transcends psychiatry and will be the new medicine practiced in the distant future as it catches on with more people.

Dr. Linus Pauling was a two time Nobel Prize winner, one for peace, and the other for his contributions to medical science. He was respected and admired until he took the stand in favour of orthomolecular medicine. Why would somebody of his calibre sacrifice his international reputation unless there was something valid in what he saw in nutritional medicine. Think about it.

As for the big fish tail, PM me and I will give you the name of the person to contact and meet in person. I do not believe that orthomolecular medicine can do anything for paralysis from physical accidents ie. severed spines, however, nutritionally based neurological problems, and cases where children are not developing quickly, this have been shown to work well.

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:05

#84

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

ennir wrote:

IMV that is a really offensive statement but I gather the writer feels they are within babble limits in speaking in such a manner. It appears to me as rampant mono-mind insisting on arbitrating reality for all of us.

There is nothing in babble policy that says we must avoid offense at all times. It does say not to call names or make personal attacks and that certain positions must be supported with respect to feminism, anti-racism and so on. So if you're in doubt about which side of the line I'm on, ask a moderator. Goodness knows, I've only been posting here for 11 years, I couldn't have figured out what goes and what doesn't in that length of time. (Yes, that was sarcasm. No rules against that, either.)

I will note that nothing of substance regarding the information I've posted has actually been mentioned - just that I'm not being sweet. Again, it can suck when evidence doesn't support cherished beliefs or confirm your perceived experience. Fair enough. But railing against the presentation of evidence as "rampant mono-mind" doesn't refute anything - it only shows a certain insecurity.

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:09

#85

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Goggles Pissano wrote:

I am evidence. Margot Kidder is evidence. The people I have listed above that you can all research if you put your minds to doing are all evidence.

I think you are scared.

That's not evidence, that's anecdotal evidence.

Quote:

The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[1][2] Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim; it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims.[3][4][5]

The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; in fact, human cognitive biases such as confirmation bias mean that exceptional or confirmatory anecdotes are much more likely to be remembered. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is "typical" requires statistical evidence.[6][7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Why do you think I'm scared? What of?

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:11

#86

Goggles Pissano

I am evidence. Margot Kidder is evidence. The people I have listed above that you can all research if you put your minds to doing are all evidence.

I think you are scared.

The people whose lives have been transformed by nutritionally based medicine are out there. Seek them out if you want to sincerely learn. They are out there. Figure it out for yourself or DON'T figure it out for yourself. That choice is yours, but at least you have a CHOICE.

I like where I am and I like the choice I made in my life. Take it or leave it, I don't raally care.

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:15

#87

Goggles Pissano

Yes, it is anecdotal evidence, but it is something,

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:23

#88

onlinediscountanvils

Timebandit wrote:
There is nothing in babble policy that says we must avoid offense at all times. It does say not to call names or make personal attacks and that certain positions must be supported with respect to feminism, anti-racism and so on.

babble terms and conditions wrote:
oppressive language that degrades marginalized communities is not acceptable.

http://rabble.ca/about/babblepolicy

Timebandit wrote:
Dude, it's bullshit.

It would be nice if you were dealing in reality, but apparently you aren't willing to, so I'm out.

Telling a psychiatric survivor that she's not dealing with reality in a thread [i]about[/i] psychiatric survivors, and pejoratively addressing her as "dude" strikes me as contrary to babble policy.

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:27

#89

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

In this instance, the only refutation I see is those wishing to retain the status quo. With scant evidence of anything to dispute the theory beyond their own biased think-tanks.

It shouldn't be hard to discuss without outright dismissal of lived experience, considering the thread we're in.

Thanks for speaking out Goggles Pissano, very brave of you.

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:29

#90

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

Timebandit wrote:
There is nothing in babble policy that says we must avoid offense at all times. It does say not to call names or make personal attacks and that certain positions must be supported with respect to feminism, anti-racism and so on.

babble terms and conditions wrote:
oppressive language that degrades marginalized communities is not acceptable.

http://rabble.ca/about/babblepolicy

Timebandit wrote:
Dude, it's bullshit.

It would be nice if you were dealing in reality, but apparently you aren't willing to, so I'm out.

Telling a psychiatric survivor that she's not dealing with reality in a thread [i]about[/i] psychiatric survivors, and pejoratively addressing her as "dude" strikes me as contrary to babble policy.

Fuck yeah. Thank the Goddess you were here ODA.

Wed, 2013-01-16 23:46

#91

Goggles Pissano

Thank you for your support. I am very thick skinned, and actually enjoy the language. Some people are into that. No just kidding. I am not bothered about the language directed at me, but only sorry for lashing out at those who disagree with my views, and for that I am truly sorry.

There are videos out there for those interested, and only for those interested.

Masks of Madness, with Margot Kidder in it talking herself about her own experiences.

Feed Your Brain, which is about the history for orthomolecular research.

They can be reached at

The International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine

16 Florence Ave

Toronto, Ontario

M2N 1E9

Tel. (416) 733-2117
Fax (416) 733-2352

Or, you can go to your local library and look for any and all books by Dr. Abram Hoffer.

Unlike psychiatric drugs, which cause over the long term, irreversable neurological damage, and are toxic to our systems, orthomolecular nutrition based healing has none of that. You do not notice the effects of nutritional medicine right away, but can gradually notice yourself getting better all the time. It took me 5 1/2 months to recover, and some people take much longer than that.

For those of you who are interested, the resources are out there.

Thu, 2013-01-17 08:43

#92

MegB

I have to agree - Timebandit, as much as I respect your opinions, I have to call you on suggesting that someone is not dealing in reality in a thread about psychiatric abuse. Psychiatric survivors routinely have their opinions dismissed. Living with a mental illness, basically, means your opinions have no credibility in the eyes of those who have never experienced such an illness, or those who have had only positive results from conventional treatment.

Not to suggest that studies on the efficacy of pharmaceuticals in treating mental illness are to be discounted, I would suggest that such things should not discount anecdotal information. As we know, studies can be biased, data fudged, etc. It's wrong to completely rely upon those results and discount any personal experience that is contrary to the results.

To understand the psychiatric survivor is to understand how the system doesn't work - not how it does. The issues are complex and varied, and one individual's experience does not advocate or negate another's.

Thu, 2013-01-17 12:04

#93

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Fair enough, and I will abide by your ruling. However, I would like to point out that this isn't about opinion, it's about demonstrated fact. It's also more patronizing, I think, to not engage with people on the basis of their medical history than it is to give them a pass you wouldn't for someone else.

Re: Anecdotal evidence - I agree with you on not completely ignoring anecdote, and good science does not do that. However, in the face of strong, non-anecdotal evidence (which exists in this case) that contradicts the anecdote's claim, it is perfectly acceptable to dismiss personal experience as anomaly, especially in the absence of a great deal of information - a very common problem in self-reporting on internet discussion boards, especially when cherry-picked from friendly sources (do I detect confirmation bias?).

I'm also more and more disturbed by the amount of acceptance on babble for anti-science positions when it comes to medicine. We wouldn't tolerate it in relation to any other subject, and yet there's more chance of real harm. (This does not mean I advocate never questioning the medical community, far from it. Just that we should give, on this subject, at least as big a nod to science as we do, for example, climate change.) This is not a progressive position.

ODA - "Dude" isn't meant to be gendered. I use it on my (female) kids quite frequently as a colloquial and humorous form of address. Stop picking nits.

Thu, 2013-01-17 13:00

#94

onlinediscountanvils

Timebandit wrote:
ODA - "Dude" isn't meant to be gendered. I use it on my (female) kids quite frequently as a colloquial and humorous form of address. Stop picking nits.

You use "dude" with girls who you know and love well, and presumably not while telling them their own experiences are bullshit. This was a different context. There was nothing "humourous" about it, and it wasn't cool. It's not nit-picking to tell you I had a problem with that.

Thu, 2013-01-17 13:09

#95

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Suck it up, princess.

Thu, 2013-01-17 14:14

#96

jas

Timebandit wrote:
I'm also more and more disturbed by the amount of acceptance on babble for anti-science positions when it comes to medicine. We wouldn't tolerate it in relation to any other subject, and yet there's more chance of real harm. (This does not mean I advocate never questioning the medical community, far from it. Just that we should give, on this subject, at least as big a nod to science as we do, for example, climate change.) This is not a progressive position.

We have had other discussions on Babble on this point.

While most of us here believe in and support a science-based epistemology, many here, as well as in the science community, advocate for a broader science practice, one that can be self-examining and that recognizes both its strengths and its limits for knowledge creation - in multiple fields of inquiry. It has also been the work of, yes, progressives, to point out the ways that science has been used to promote specific agendas and suppress others.

It is hardly a progressive position to flog the dominant, corporate-backed medical viewpoint and system - the science of which will always be self-perpetuating - over other ways of addressing health and illness.

It is also hardly a progressive position to spend a lot of one's time trying to "debunk" or invalidate others' experiences, and it's always been puzzling to me why people choose to do this. You are not the keepers of others' health, unless they've asked you to be. As well, most alternative health treatments are not supported by medicare, so it's not even a case of the community paying for these treatments that you consider so dubious. What we're all paying for is the dominant, self-reproducing medical system, with all its successes as well as its many flaws and failures. So, in a nutshell, what others choose outside of this system with their own time and money, and for their own health care, is NOYB. Science is not under "attack" here.

Thu, 2013-01-17 14:30

#97

6079_Smith_W

@ jas

Well said.

I certainly have sympathy all around here - not just Goggles Pissano; had a comment in Timebandit's defense written up, but cancelled it.

But as someone who has homeopathic medicine used in my household, this argument about not doing certain things because some people are too fucking stupid only goes so far.

Thu, 2013-01-17 14:38

#98

Caissa

When people advocate that others try alternative medicine then it becomes society's business.

Thu, 2013-01-17 14:54

#99

6079_Smith_W

I don't think anyone is saying it is not a public issue, Caissa. And you say "alternative medicine" like it is one single. bad. thing.

If this is an argument that certain things should not be allowed just because some people might hurt themselves, I have a problem with that.

Power-wise, who has the most to gain from a ban like this, other than drug companies and their investors? If we were talking political philosophies the inbalance would be obvious. What works medically is even less universal than what works politicallly. So I think this aboslute position is even less appropriate.

Thu, 2013-01-17 15:04

#100

Caissa

I don't see where I advocated a ban in my senetnce. You seem to be extrapolating a lot. If you need clarification, I meant by "society's business" that free and frank debate is both permissible and required.

Thu, 2013-01-17 15:22

#101

jas

Caissa wrote:
When people advocate that others try alternative medicine then it becomes society's business.

Why do you think this?

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