Hugo Chavez, RIP

Tue, 2013-03-05 17:23

#2

Catchfire

Previous babble thread.

Tue, 2013-03-05 17:36

#3

Debater

Jean Chretien spoke positively of Hugo Chavez a little while ago on Power & Politics with Evan Solomon.

https://twitter.com/PnP_CBC/status/309065300375130114

The U.S. media will try to portray Chavez as an evil socialist, but he had many good qualities and improved living conditions and access to running water for the poor.

Tue, 2013-03-05 17:40

#4

Boom Boom

I saw that - and Tom Mulcair spoke well, too.

CBC corrected one thing, though: John Baird did not refuse to meet with Chavez - Caracas cancelled the meeting as "it was too delicate a moment to meeting with foreign nationals".

How long before the CIA get involved now?

Tue, 2013-03-05 18:07

#5

kropotkin1951

dp

Tue, 2013-03-05 19:14

#6

josh

Sad news.

Tue, 2013-03-05 19:17

#7

Boom Boom

Interesting discussion in the final minutes of P&P - that his successor will almost certainly win because the election is only 30 days away, and the love and affaction the country has for Chavez will carry forward into the election.

Tue, 2013-03-05 19:29

#8

Catchfire

Hugo Chavez, undefeated

Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías (July 28, 1954 – March 5, 2013).

Hugo Chavez has died -- undefeated.

Yes, undefeated. Chavez, no matter how many times the corporate media and the cheerleaders of the status quo call him a dictator, was elected repeatedly with overwhelming majorities.

No matter how many times this slur is moronically or mendaciously repeated, people know the truth. No less than Jimmy Carter certified Venezuela's elections as amongst the most fair and transparent his organization has ever observed. And the voter turnouts that elected Chavez were usually far, far higher than those in the U.S.

The voices that cheer and mock the death of Hugo Chavez are in fact mocking democracy and the people of Venezuela, who elected him and who have re-elected him time and time again -- most recently by a decisive majority in October, 2012....

Today, I would rather celebrate the majority of Venezuelans -- especially the poor and the marginalized. It is, after all, the people who made Chavez, and not the other way around. And it is the humble people of Venezuela who saw to it that Chavez was allowed to complete this many years as president, after all.

Chavez came very close to dying much earlier -- of unnatural causes. It was People Power that kept him alive and that kept his democratically elected government in power. I'm referring of course to the April 2002 coup d'etat cynically aided and abbetted by Venezuela's rabidly right-wing media and which was issued with an immediate stamp of approval by the Bush administration....

The rich and powerful of the world did not hate Chavez because he was a dictator. Deep down the sentient among them know he wasn't.

They hated him because he was symbolic of a threat to the dictatorship of Capital, a figurehead of a continent alive with social movements and millions of people conscious of their political power.

Tue, 2013-03-05 19:46

#9

Buddy Kat

Yes very sad news...I always had to admire how his election turnouts were so high...last one 81% and how the US villified him for showing them how a true democracy works...they should be ashamed of themselves to even carry the word after Chavez. Another thing that I always thought intersting was the 1.7 cents a liter they paid at the pumps ...showing North America how if you produce oil you should be able to do the same.

A leader that was /is actually loved by his people and people all over the world...can that still happen..cheated at such a young age by cancer like most other democratic socialists won't go unoticed .

R.I.P Hugo Chavez

Tue, 2013-03-05 20:11

#10

kropotkin1951

Chavez was a leader of a movement not a dictator. The movement will survive without him. I believe the CIA has never left Venezuela or quit trying to overthrow his democratically elected government.

ETA This link recites the litany of good things that the Chavez governments have done to improve health and education and respect for women.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/24/why-do-venezuelan-women-vote-for-...

Edited to remove reference to Boom Boom. Yes I know that you support him from previous threads. I tried posting a different post and then it got lost and I became discombobulated.

Tue, 2013-03-05 20:51

#11

Left Turn

Very sad news indeed. Hugo Chavez was one of the very few heads of state in human history who provided a glimmer of hope for a world in which the poor majority would not have to live in perpetual misery and suffering.

There is a real danger now that thermidorian reaction could set in among the leadership of the Chavista movement. From what I understand, Chavez did not manage to build up a revolutionary cadre around him, and that the remaining leadership is more conervative in its approach.

Tue, 2013-03-05 21:43

#12

Jacob Richter

Personal condolences to the people and to the Chavez family, and RIP to the man.

Tue, 2013-03-05 22:06

#13

Unionist

We've long known this was coming, but it can't lessen the grief. May the memory and heroism of Chavez inspire the Venezuelan people, and people everywhere, to consolidate and multiply the fruits of their struggle.

Tue, 2013-03-05 22:20

#14

6079_Smith_W

The other obit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/opinion/in-the-end-chavez-was-an-awful...

I have to say, I take the words of praise for Chavez in this article (and there are some) more to heart than those which are less tempered.

Tue, 2013-03-05 22:28

#15

kropotkin1951

Why post that shit Smith? The man is dead and you post an American hate piece.

Tue, 2013-03-05 22:49

#16

6079_Smith_W

Actually, the writer is Irish, and works for the Guardian.

And as I said, when he points out that Chavez was loved by his people, I take it seriously.

That's the problem with puff pieces and regular obits.

Tue, 2013-03-05 22:53

#17

Catchfire

What a disgusting piece. I agree with kropotkin. I hope we don't see anymore shit like that in this thread.

Tue, 2013-03-05 22:59

#18

Unionist

This is worth a read:

http://www.thenation.com/article/173212/legacy-hugo-chavez

Tue, 2013-03-05 23:12

#19

Boom Boom

There are times when Evan Solomon is brilliant, and there are times when he truly annoys me. However, tonight I thought he did a fair job on just about every topic. He tries to be factual, and the bit about John Baird and the proposed meeting in Caracas - well, that's probably an easy thing to look up as to who pulled out of the meeting.

I didn't watch The National tonight because I can't stand Mansbridge especially on foreign affairs - he's a bootlicker for the Americans I think. As well as the Vatican.

Tue, 2013-03-05 23:25

#20

Boom Boom

That's a good read, U - thanks for posting it.

Wed, 2013-03-06 00:07

#21

Boom Boom

Occupy Wall St.'s photo. "Wealth inequality in Venezuela is half of what it is in the United States. It is rated the 'fifth-happiest nation in the world' by Gallup. And Pepe Escobar writes that, 'No less than 22 public universities were built in the past 10 years. The number of teachers went from 65,000 to 350,000. Illiteracy has been eradicated. There is an ongoing agrarian reform.' Venezuela has undertaken significant steps to build food security through land reform and government assistance. New homes are being built, health clinics are opening in underserved areas and cooperatives for agriculture and business are growing."

Wed, 2013-03-06 00:52

#22

Catchfire

No less than 22 public universities were built in the past 10 years. The number of teachers went from 65,000 to 350,000. Illiteracy has been eradicated.

Honestly, this made be tear up a little. If nothing else, Venezuela and its people, under Chavez, showed us the possible.

Wed, 2013-03-06 02:38

#23

Michelle

A sad day for Venezuela. RIP.

Wed, 2013-03-06 02:48

#24

NDPP

US Embassy Officials Expelled From Venezuela, Government Warns of 'Conspiracy Plans'

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/8031

"...Maduro pronounced the expulsion of Air Attache David Delmonaco and assistant Air Attache Devlin Costal of the US embassy in Caracas for being implicated in 'conspiracy plans'. 'They have 24 hours to pack their bags and leave,' Maduro said. He explained that Monaco had, for the last few weeks, been contacting members of the Venezuelan military in order to bring about a destabilisation plan in Venezuela.."

The Yanqui devil never sleeps - No Pasaran!

Chavez's Death Brings Hope Of A Better Future for Venezuela, Harper Says

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/chavezs-death-brings-hope-of-a-b...

"At this key juncture, I hope the people of Venezuela can now build for themselves a better, brighter future based on the principles of freedom, democracy, the rule of law and respect for human rights,' Harper said in a statement Tuesday evening..."

Wed, 2013-03-06 06:20

#25

lagatta

As well as education and health, building solid homes for poor Venezuelans in the "ranchos" (shantytowns) and in the countryside was a remarkable achievement.

Wed, 2013-03-06 07:00

#26

margot66

Al Jazeera is not infallible, ha ha, but this seems interesting, the two men, the head of the assembly or Maduro, who seems to have been chosen by Chavez. I think university should be free but not mandatory for leadership. My heart is with Maduro.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/01/201317131121971125.html

Wed, 2013-03-06 07:20

#27

Slumberjack

Harper wrote:
At this key juncture, I hope the people of Venezuela can now build for themselves a better, brighter future based on the principles of freedom, democracy, the rule of law and respect for human rights.

Judging by the stench coming out of their mouths, Chavez's passing is not a sad event for the scum of the Earth. Venezuelans though already enjoy these healthy indicators of freedom. We're still waiting.

Wed, 2013-03-06 08:33

#28

Boom Boom

I wish Harper would shrivel up and disappear, and then Canada would have a chance at a better future.

Wed, 2013-03-06 09:54

#29

lagatta

Margot, Maduro was a bus driver, and it looks as if he got quite an education through the trade union movement. I have known many such people, ofther than their work and political experience itself, the unions give a lot of training that involves historical and economic concepts. After all, a real democracy is one where an ordinary worker such as a bus driver (or as Lenin said, a cook) could become a leader.

Boom Boom, nah, I'd like to see Harper having to do a really shitty job, something much more disagreeable than bus driver or cook (unless we mean flipping burgers in the heat). After he's done hard time, of course. And having to work at said crap job long past 68...

The papers are just infested with Chavez-haters. And even in the Guardian he has already been compared to both Hitler and Stalin...

Wed, 2013-03-06 10:18

#30

zazzo

The people of Venezuela supported a great leader. My understanding is that Hugo Chavez had some indigenous ancestry, and was brought up by his grandmother, for whom he had a deep respect and love.

Let us forget about Harper's empty words, and instead focus on the condolences of those who lived his world and respected him for who he truly was.

Here is a link to some of those words: http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/03/06-0

I was sad to hear of his passing but was encouraged by the words of Evo Morales, who said that Hugo is more alive than ever. It has been my experience that those who have passed on, and those who have great love for their people, are still there, and still waiting to offer their help. We have only to stop and listen, we can hear what they say, in our thoughts and in our dreams.

Wed, 2013-03-06 10:33

#31

6079_Smith_W

lagatta wrote:

The papers are just infested with Chavez-haters. And even in the Guardian he has already been compared to both Hitler and Stalin...

You mean Michael White's piece No Heroes or VIllains please? There was no direct comparison. He talked about Thatcher, Churchill, Mao, and a number of other charismatic leaders, and it was about the hero worship, not the man or his policies. And given the climate, I think it is a good thing to remember. Chavez was far better than average when it came to concern for his country and his people, but he was himself a poltician, and a bit more nuanced than the reports from right or left.

The paper also published this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/05/hugo-chavez-people-v...

Wed, 2013-03-06 10:43

#32

6079_Smith_W

And on the subject of higher education, Venezuela's indigenous people, and al Jazeera, this piece shows some of the balancing act:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/05/201251313573475737.html

While an institution like this probably wouldn't have come into being without Chavez's reforms, it is equally important that it keep its autonomy.

Wed, 2013-03-06 10:44

#33

MegB

CTV London news described Chavez as having "taken over". Um, democratically elected. Tommy Paine and I had to remember that we can't afford to replace our TV, so the Sanyo was safe from airborne objects ...

Wed, 2013-03-06 10:59

#34

NDPP

RT: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Dies (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/venezuela-hugo-chavez-dies-349/

"...The national army has been deployed to ensure the Venezuelan people's sovereignty and security, Venezuelan Minister of Defense Diego Molero said..."

Wed, 2013-03-06 11:02

#35

mersh

It is very sad -- and inspiring to see the overwhelmingly supportive responses (if you're a bit, erm, selective in using the interweb). I'm just reading up on an oil-for-urban-planning-expertise swap that was set up between Caracas and London during ken Livingstone's tenure. Amazing the support networks that can emerge, even within the crushing confines of global capital & imperialism.

Wed, 2013-03-06 11:15

#36

6079_Smith_W

I won't post it here, but I'd actually recommend reading The Economist's assessment published today. I'm sure some will want to hold their noses at the source, but it does lay out a lot of the forces that are in play right now, and while it is critical, it is also far from unsympathetic.

Let's just say that if you are looking for stuff to disagree with you will find it there, but there is also some very good and useful information in terms of where things might go from here.

(edit)

I should add, it's probably the most personal obit I have read so far, because it talks about Chavez not just as leader, but as the baseball player he wanted to be as a child.

.

Wed, 2013-03-06 11:21

#37

NDPP

Wed, March 6@ 8:15 PM TONIGHT

Yellow Griffin Pub

2202 Bloor St W Toronto (near Runnymede Subway Station)

FB: http://www.facebook.com/events/358083867633309/

Candlelight Vigil in Honour of President Hugo Chavez

Thurs. March 7 @ 4:30 PM

Trinity Bellwoods Park, Toronto (at Simon Bolivar statue - Dundas/Shaw)

FB: http://www.facebook.com/events/499246406800158/

Wed, 2013-03-06 11:52

#38

lagatta

Smith W, I think you'll find quite a few of us read the Economist. Of course it is a business, and pro-business, publication, but it is very well-informed and after all, they don't want to lie to their own class, eh? Also extremely well-written.

I wasn't referring to any specific article or comment piece in terms of Hitler and Stalin comparisons, just a lot of online comments at so-called "reputable" media. It is just nonsense, unless you can prove that Chávez is responsible for the death of several million people.

Wed, 2013-03-06 12:29

#39

6079_Smith_W

lagatta wrote:

Smith W, I think you'll find quite a few of us read the Economist. Of course it is a business, and pro-business, publication, but it is very well-informed and after all, they don't want to lie to their own class, eh?

True. They don't have to lie. Part of the reason why you'll find some of the best information in completely partisan trade papers.

And yes, I know many of us have no problem reading sources we don't entirely agree with. I have heard some talk as if they might catch plague from it, though - or that it makes one an active supporter.

Wed, 2013-03-06 12:48

#40

Brachina

lagatta wrote:

Margot, Maduro was a bus driver, and it looks as if he got quite an education through the trade union movement. I have known many such people, ofther than their work and political experience itself, the unions give a lot of training that involves historical and economic concepts. After all, a real democracy is one where an ordinary worker such as a bus driver (or as Lenin said, a cook) could become a leader.

Boom Boom, nah, I'd like to see Harper having to do a really shitty job, something much more disagreeable than bus driver or cook (unless we mean flipping burgers in the heat). After he's done hard time, of course. And having to work at said crap job long past 68...

The papers are just infested with Chavez-haters. And even in the Guardian he has already been compared to both Hitler and Stalin...

Let me suggest shovelling bullshit as a job for Harper, after all he has produced enough of it, he should have to clean it up :p

To insult a national leader like Chavez when he dies, wonderful way to create a diplomatic incident and embarrass Canada internationally, again!

Chavez will be missed. His achievements are legendary.

I do find the implication that Chavez was poisoned by the American Government interesting, especially with the Rumour I heard about Jack's death. Not saying I believe either, but this eliminates the two greatest threats to the right in the Western Hemisphere. I plan on keeping an eye on Mulcair's health and the other lefty leaders in this hemisphere, just in case.

Wed, 2013-03-06 12:54

#41

knownothing knownothing's picture

live feed of Chavez coffin departure

http://rt.com/on-air/venezuela-chavez-body-departure/

Wed, 2013-03-06 13:01

#42

knownothing knownothing's picture

Brachina wrote:

I do find the implication that Chavez was poisoned by the American Government interesting, especially with the Rumour I heard about Jack's death. Not saying I believe either, but this eliminates the two greatest threats to the right in the Western Hemisphere. I plan on keeping an eye on Mulcair's health and the other lefty leaders in this hemisphere, just in case.

When we win in 2015 we should appoint a scientific panel to investigate ;)

Wed, 2013-03-06 13:14

#43

Brachina

I know your kidding Knownothing, but if it can be done discretely, at least until we had solid evidence, if such exists, then we should. Just in case for National Security.

Wed, 2013-03-06 14:11

#44

knownothing knownothing's picture

If it happens a 3rd time I will be worried

Wed, 2013-03-06 14:19

#45

Brachina

These people think long term and an irreplacible leader like Chavez is a Prime Target. And Cancer while creating sympathy in the short term is less risky of causing an eruption or long term backlash then obvious violence.

I'd also and the Venusalan Government appears to think it was, why else eject that American.

Wed, 2013-03-06 14:33

#46

Catchfire

Winston, your vain gestures towards nuance -- which apparently come in the form of conceding that Chavez was "popular with the people" while castigating him for paranoia, meglomania, tyrrany, oppression, you name it -- are nothing short of part and parcel with the same pathetic propaganda the USian MSM has been spouting for a decade. It's hard to believe where to begin with what's wrong with the articles you've cited -- and I won't bother to do so in this thread, which is meant to honour the memory of a man who fought tirelessly against neoliberalism and for his people, and who inspired leftists and progressives across the globe -- but suffice it to say if you think they are "not entirely unsympathetic" you need help with either your history or your critical reading skills.

Wed, 2013-03-06 14:39

#47

mersh

Edited to remove mysterious double post...

Wed, 2013-03-06 14:42

#48

6079_Smith_W

Brachina wrote:

The Venezuelan Government appears to think it was, why else eject that American.

I can think of a number of reasons.

Not all depend on the evidence (which has not been revealed) that this may have been a case of assassination. Really, it is enough to simply suggest that it is.

(edit)

Cachfire.

Was Chavez a real leader, or was he not?

I happen to think he was, and as such I think it is a fair tribute to his legacy to treat him like one.

All those things you are accusing me of saying are actually fair criticism; it takes nothing away from the things he did to right wrongs and change things for the oppressed in his country, or from the fact that his is a country that is in many ways still under siege.

I am sad that he is gone too, but we already have one papal election going on right now.

Wed, 2013-03-06 14:46

#49

Catchfire

Your mistaking of a rejection of Anglo-American propaganda as hero worship is insulting and unfortunate. I hope you enjoy the Wall Street Journal obit you'll be linking to next which praises Chavez for his stridency as a dictator.

Wed, 2013-03-06 14:46

#50

Bacchus

Compare this thread to the one when Reagan died. Criticism should be allowed

Wed, 2013-03-06 14:49

#51

Catchfire

Strange comment, Bacchus. Why, because Reagan and Chavez are two sides of the same coin? No, we don't go in for that here. It's a progressive website, remember? Second, who said criticism is not allowed? I see plenty here. That doesn't mean when the criticism is baseless it can't also be criticized and exposed for what it is: neoliberal bullshit.

Hugo Chavez, RIP

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