How about homeless people?
They have been and always will be caught in the crossfire. :(
Boston Marathon hit by explosions
Fri, 2013-04-19 20:23
#152
Fri, 2013-04-19 20:53
#153
It appears that they have found him within blocks of where he was last spotted at the end of the car chase.
My condolences to all the people who are living from pay cheque to pay cheque with no room to spare that had to miss a days pay. Over a million people ordered to stay at home and the whole city on lock down because a 19 year old was cowering under a boat in someones back yard. I guess you can just never be to safe.
Fri, 2013-04-19 21:00
#154
It is ok to talk about root causes now?
Fri, 2013-04-19 21:47
#155
Maybe it was just a preview of the Sochi Olympics. Here is decent summary of Chechnya's history.
As an aside I decided to do the US Citizenship test that is linked to on the Christian Monitor site. Boy it sure is easy. The link says you need to get 57 question right to pass. I reached that on the 60th question and stopped.
The Caucasus region was conquered by Czarist Russia, whose armies took three decades to overcome the resistance of the guerrilla warriors. The long war, whose brutal and treacherous nature was brilliantly captured by Russian writer Leo Tolstoy in his last novel, Hadji Murat, was finally won by Russian Gen. Mikhail Yermolov, who used scorched earth tactics, hostage taking, and deliberate bloody civilian massacres to crush the Chechen rebels.
Chechnya has erupted in revolt every time the Russian grip has weakened ever since, notably amid the chaos following the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 and after Nazi Germany invaded the USSR in 1941. Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin was so infuriated by Chechen disloyalty in World War II that he ordered the entire Chechen nation – half a million people – deported to Central Asia in 1944. An estimated 150,000 Chechens died on the bitter winter march.
The Chechens were allowed to return home after Mr. Stalin died, but they declared independence as the USSR crumbled in 1991. The Russian Army invaded in 1994, but withdrew in defeat after two years of futile war and an estimated 80,000 mostly civilian casualties.
After winning independence, however, the Chechens failed to build a viable state. Leading warlords such as Shamil Basayev and the Jordanian-born Khattab embraced Islamist ideology and sought to export their revolution to neighboring republics. Russia, now led by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, invaded again in 1999.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0419/Chechnya-How-a-remote-Ru...
Sat, 2013-04-20 01:16
#156
I guess you can just never be to safe.
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It wasn't about safety. It was about disabling the transportation network such as taxis, buses, private vehicles and trains so he couldn't flee the area. Without transportation available people can’t move thus the claims of “safety” as the motivating factor.
Liberties are often challenged by the state under the guise of safety. What is startling is how willing people were to embrace it though to be perfectly Frank, I probably would have complied too.
Sat, 2013-04-20 01:16
#157
The longer the lockdown lasted the longer it took to find the suspect. They might never have found him alive if they had continued the lockdown. It is good to see that unlike most areas the US no longer outsources its torture to countries like Syria. I wonder how long before this suspects health is good enough to turn him over to the "interrogators.'
The younger Tsarnaev was in serious condition, Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis said at a news conference. He was being treated at Boston's Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, hospital spokeswoman Kelly Lawman said.
Tsarnaev was cornered late Friday as he was hiding on a boat in a backyard of Watertown, a suburb of Boston.
Police were alerted to his whereabouts by a man who went outside after authorities lifted an order for residents to stay inside during the manhunt. The resident saw blood on a boat in the backyard, Davis said. He then lifted up the tarp covering the boat and "saw a man covered with blood," he said.
It was that call that resulted in an arrest less than a week after two bombs exploded near the finish line of the Boston Marathon, shocking the nation and leaving a city on edge.
"There was an exchange of gunfire, and I don't know if he was struck," Davis said of the suspect.
Authorities, using a bullhorn, had called on the suspect to surrender: "Come out with your hands up."
Tsarnaev, according to authorities, refused to surrender.
"We used a robot to pull the tarp off the boat," David Procopio of the Massachusetts State Police said. "We were also watching him with a thermal imaging camera in our helicopter. He was weakened by blood loss -- injured last night most likely,"
Tsarnaev was taken into custody after authorities rushed the boat, Davis said.
...
The government is invoking the public safety exception to question Tsarnaev, meaning in cases of national security a person can be questioned without being read their Miranda rights, a Justice Department official told CNN on condition of anonymity. The official is not authorized to publicly discuss the matter.
U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz told reporters the "government has that opportunity right now" to invoke the public safety exemption but stopped short of declaring it would take that step, saying only the suspect was in the hospital.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area-violence/index.html
Sat, 2013-04-20 01:51
#158
The longer the lockdown lasted the longer it took to find the suspect. They might never have found him alive if they had continued the lockdown. It is good to see that unlike most areas the US no longer outsources its torture to countries like Syria. I wonder how long before this suspects health is good enough to turn him over to the "interrogators.'
I think you should be more concerned with the welfare of the victims and their families then this ideologue. And remember, the guy was hurt while murdering a young security guard after he murdered and maimed hundreds including a small child.
But it is important to determine whether he and his brother acted alone or whether they are a cell in a network. If they acted alone it ends here. If they are a cell within a network there will be further orchestrated attacks until such time as the network has been dismantled.
Time is of the essence if they are part of a network.
Sat, 2013-04-20 02:36
#159
So what do you think about this prairie boy?
No Miranda warning for suspect.
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/20/17832252-whats-next-the-...
Sat, 2013-04-20 04:13
#160
Naturally the conspiracy theorists are hard at it...
5-Man Special Ops Team Carried the Bombs (and vid)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1HPUW8kfik
Boston Bomber Controlled by FBI (and vid)
http://www.infowars.com/boston-bomber-was-controlled-by-fbi/
Sat, 2013-04-20 05:20
#161
I don’t know, maybe I'm not so concerned about the US police state (as some here are) because people I know and I have a bunch of weapons at our disposal (do you?). I have a semi automatic rifle and the 30 round clips for it… its pretty much the same weapon you see all those cops running around with.
Are you for real?
I am not familiar enough with your posts to know anything about where you come from, substantively. Let alone questions like "is he some (normal) nut from the US? or posing as one?
When I asked that question, for a bit I forget my own story coming from the US [it is after all over 40 years ago].
When we wandered across the border into the mountainous BC Interior, it wasnt with any plan to stay. Any plan at all really. Two hippie guys in a camper fitted out for living in a Rockies winter. Wyoming plates.
Like good American boys we had an arsenal. Two semi-automatic pistols [easily converted to automatic]. Couple rifles. Footlocker full of ammo and handloading equipment. Vaguely aware they frowned on this in Cananda, and this was a border.
So we put the handguns in the locker on the floor. And we put a shotgun out in full view. When asked if we had any guns, we pointed at the shotgun. Lucky for us they were thining hippies, where is the dope... and proceeded to pry open to peek inside a couple randomly selected 8 track tapes... with an arsenal in view for just lifting the lid of a trunk. Heard about them 8 track tapes from someone I guess.
I rarely think about it. And the risks give me the willies. [let alone the frame of mind that produced that] Stayed in BC. On the Raincoast. Within a couple years the hanguns went into the saltchuck.
We had that arsenal so we would be ready. Government forces got there guns. So we get ready too.
Something like that for you too?
Give that head a shake.
Sat, 2013-04-20 07:30
#162
The god awful threat of nineteen year old who:
gave 200 people shrapnel injuries
had other pressure cooker bombs which failed to go off
had other pipebombs which failed to go off
whose brother died wearing a suicide belt with trigger
who ran over his own brother in his escape
staged an armed carjacking, if not two
was throwing home made pipebombs and grenades from a moving car
had several exchanges of gunfire with cops, causing fifteen injuries
shot a transit cop
murdered a poor schmuck campus cop, who probably made... what? 25k?
was so helpless bleeding to death in that boat that he had another exchange of gunfire on a residential street
who murdered two women and an eight year old
oh, yeah, no threat, no problem.
Sat, 2013-04-20 07:33
#163
meanwhile, back on planet earth, the really disgusting thing is these two dopes have got people feeling sympathetic for Putin and Russia's heinous policies of mass murder in the Caucasus.
Root causes, indeed.
Sat, 2013-04-20 07:40
#164
The god awful threat of nineteen year old who:
gave 200 people shrapnel injuries
had other pressure cooker bombs which failed to go off
had other pipebombs which failed to go off
whose brother died wearing a suicide belt with trigger
who ran over his own brother in his escape
staged an armed carjacking, if not two
was throwing home made pipebombs and grenades from a moving car
had several exchanges of gunfire with cops, causing fifteen injuries
shot a transit cop
murdered a poor schmuck campus cop, who probably made... what? 25k?
was so helpless bleeding to death in that boat that he had another exchange of gunfire on a residential street
who murdered two women and an eight year old
oh, yeah, no threat, no problem.
Yes. I find these criticisms of Boston law enforcement quite hilarious. He was a guy pretty committed to killing people. There was no way to know that he was "bleeding to death" in a backyard. Nice to have that 20/20 hindsight.
Sat, 2013-04-20 07:48
#165
And on the less dramatic level....
(before the by the way reminder of people in the US talking about 'being ready') ...
I'm not in the US right now. But I easily could have been. I've been there while other 'uniquely American' dramas are playing out. So I can, and have, pictured being there. And being a couple thousand miles from Boston is just like being there.
And its painful feeling the relief and comraderie at prevailing against the God Awful Threat of a fucked up 19 year old slowly bleeding to death hiding in someone's boat in the backyard.
God Bless Our Pathetic Souls.
(And it would be a fine comedy if it wasn't for the fact you know this is really a rigged Greek tragedy, where in the next act Amerika Lashes Out Against Its Tormentors.)
Oh my god, do we have to be doing this Again?
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:01
#166
And by the way, who said anything about fucking "root causes"?
I'm talking about the all too real and here and now violence and the psyche in Amerika.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:04
#167
Did you see what I said about when I came to Canada?
See that it was inspired by Bec.De.Corbin's casual comment about being armed and ready?
And you don't get the connection about threats and perceived threats?
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:04
#168
You guys entirely missed the point.
In fact, I never criticised what the police did in Boston.
My comment was about the behavior of the mass.
Think of all the threats faced by Americans.
Whatever that 19 year old did before, when they [inevitably] captured him he was not that threat. And that is not 20/20 hindsight.
The relief and the 'WE got him' IS pathetic.
Too bad it is also extremely dangerous. And I mean right now.
A LOT more dangerous than the brothers could ever aspire to be in their wildest dreams.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:10
#169
He was firing at cops on a residential street immediately prior to his surrender. When he abandoned his vehicle, they found another pressure cooker bomb in it. When he was cornered he continued firing a weapon on a residential street. When the cops went over his brothers corpse they found he was wired for explosives. No one knew if he had accomplices, no one knew if he wasn't wired and ready to take out a block of houses on his way out.
What should the cops have done? Encourage people to gather in large groups in public parks? To bring a jerry can of gas along?
I got your point.
Your point was asinine.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:20
#170
Thr root cause was my point, in an attempt to move the discussion away from your confusion. The point being that these two goofs were, at least in part, driven mad by 180 years of mass murder since the Tsar's invasion of their homeland.
And, as usual, its because their part of the world is full of OIL.
OIL
the root cause of so much misery, including the impending death of the earth itself.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:25
#171
In fact, I never criticised what the police did in Boston.
My comment was about the behavior of the mass.
You're still talking to someone else.
I think I heard the word asinine float by. Might be talking about anybody or nobody.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:28
#172
So one guy who refused to stay inside behind locked doors found him. Delicious irony.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:32
#173
Sorry about the "confusion" I injected.
And thank you for making sure that we got that corrective analysis of the situation in Boston and in America that just isn't getting enough air time.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:34
#174
So what do you think about this prairie boy?
No Miranda warning for suspect.
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/20/17832252-whats-next-the-...
Disgraceful. A typical Obama copout. He's an American citizen and entitled to be advised of his rights before any questioning. There is no public safety emergency now.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:34
#175
The confusion I injected, eh.
Well thank you for making sure that we got that corrective analysis of the situation in Boston and in America that just isn't getting enough air time.
Your view isn't getting enough airtime because it's idiotic. I didn't fail to understand your point. Your point was valueless.
It's not all about your ego, dude.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:34
#176
Dont worry, I didnt think you failed to understand howard.
Sat, 2013-04-20 08:50
#177
And by the way, who said anything about fucking "root causes"?
I'm talking about the all too real and here and now violence and the psyche in Amerika.
I made that comment earlier, but I was being (mostly) sarcastic b/c of all the people jumping on JT for saying it.
That said, I do think examining root causes is impt.
FWIW, my endorsement of Howard's post was directed at earlier posts on the thread more than yours specifically.
Sat, 2013-04-20 09:00
#178
You guys entirely missed the point.
In fact, I never criticised what the police did in Boston.
My comment was about the behavior of the mass.
Think of all the threats faced by Americans.
Whatever that 19 year old did before, when they [inevitably] captured him he was not that threat. And that is not 20/20 hindsight.
The relief and the 'WE got him' IS pathetic.
Too bad it is also extremely dangerous. And I mean right now.
A LOT more dangerous than the brothers could ever aspire to be in their wildest dreams.
Are you really arguing that, until they had him in custody, the police were wrong to treat Tsarnaev as an extremely dangerous man?
I didn't find the relief of neighborhood residents pathetic.
ETA: Ok, I think I get what you are saying about the first point re: the nature of the threats the US is dealing with as a whole.
I still don't find the normal human emotions on display last night pathetic.
Sat, 2013-04-20 09:38
#179
For the umpteetnth time, I did not say a thing about what the police did. Actually thats not true- longer ago than would be remembered I said their caution was understandable. But I said nothing now.
And having read my post, what reason is there for you to see in my ranting against the threat hysteria in Amerika [while they are robbed blind, poisoned every day, and watch their childrens' future thrown out]... that I was saying that the neighbours where buddy was loose were being hysterical??
Sat, 2013-04-20 09:39
#180
Whatever KenS. I've tried to engage with you civilly.
Obviously, a mistake on my part.
Sat, 2013-04-20 09:42
#181
In case it got missed it somehow, the whole country is having another collective orgasm of We're Fighting Off The THREATS.
Sat, 2013-04-20 09:49
#182
I'm sorry if it doesnt seem civil.
But I think it is legitimately frustrating that there is no seperation made between what is understandable behaviour from people who can reasonably be seen as directly impacted or potentially impacted by what was happening in Boston, and the behaviour of a whole country of people.
Do really think this is normal how so much of America takes this in?
Sat, 2013-04-20 11:08
#183
In case it got missed it somehow, the whole country is having another collective orgasm of We're Fighting Off The THREATS.
No, I think some of us got that.
And from what I have seen it is hardly as fun as an orgasm.... more like a constant, nagging fearful pain that people are going to hurt you or cheat you or get something they don't deserve. As I said, many developed countries thrive on it, and that goes double for a huge demographic in the states.
(edit)
Now the feeling that we'd be so much more enlightened in dealing with a tragedy like this? I'm sure lots of people are getting off on that sentiment.
Sat, 2013-04-20 11:25
#184
Why Does Boston Celebrate Martial Law With Chants of 'USA, USA'?
http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/04/20/why-did-boston-and-america-celebra...
"...To call all of this over-the-top is an understatement for sure, but more than anything, it confirms what may already be suspected - that faced with any threat - real or fabricated, and after pumping up with the corporate media machine the new American Police State, and in a macabre sort of fashion which has become almost unique to the post-011 American cultural mindset - they will clamour for Martial Law in their communities.
Naturally, and with this Boston example offered as clear proof, authorities, technocrats and the architects of the new American Police State now know this is indeed the case. For all this it seems, the Commander in Chief feels that America owes this new over-arching Police State a 'debt of gratitude.'
Sat, 2013-04-20 11:40
#185
By the way you both sound like all the right winged anti Obama folks here at work. Funny how your politics has put you in the same boat as them.
I'm kind getting a big kick out of that.
I don’t know, maybe I'm not so concerned about the US police state (as some here are) because people I know and I have a bunch of weapons at our disposal (do you?). I have a semi automatic rifle and the 30 round clips for it… its pretty much the same weapon you see all those cops running around with.
So are you the pot or kettle?
Sat, 2013-04-20 11:50
#186
I think the people of Boston and particularly the neighbourhood where he was hiding can be permitted celebration of relief.
If this was happening in my town, I think I'd be happy to stay indoors until the threat was over. I'm pretty sure I'd choose to do that even without police 'urging'.
I'd also challenge any such 'order' given without good reason.
Sat, 2013-04-20 12:03
#187
I'm glad for the people of Boston that their recent chapter dealing with terrorism appears to be over, at least for now, however the chanting "USA" "USA" in front of the TV screens was overkill, and the TV stations that publicized it were inappropriate. Welcome to the 21st century nonsensical media coverage I suppose. Some, not all, but many of the media were incredibly inaccurate with their reporting and have damaged what little credibility they still had remaining. Hopefully those 2 people that were incorrectly singled out by the New York Post as suspects, sue the ass off that publication, and put it out of business if they can.
Sat, 2013-04-20 12:05
#188
The problem is they locked down a million people instead of a few thousand. This was a dangerous suspect but given the daily gun fights in American cities I just don't understand how people cannot think it was an over the top response. He was found holed up close to where he was last seen by police. As for the fact that I said he was likely to bleed to death, the person who found him found hm because he saw blood and looked in the boat.
As for cheering on the police and security agents in their hummers and light armored vehicles, the people of America can choose to live in whatever kind of country they want. Now if they would only extend that courtesy to the rest of the planet.
Sat, 2013-04-20 12:29
#189
Sat, 2013-04-20 12:33
#190
As for cheering on the police and security agents in their hummers and light armored vehicles, the people of America can choose to live in whatever kind of country they want.
Well, it's not just the Americans. Plastered on the front page of today's Sun in big, black letters: "WE GOT HIM!" Passing by one of their newspaper boxes this morning, I took note of the headline, and couldn't help thinking, "We? What's this 'we' shit? What, exactly, did you assholes at the Toronto Sun have to do with it?"
Sat, 2013-04-20 12:40
#191
What rights should Dzhokhar Tsarnaev get and why does it matter?
The Obama DOJ says it intends to question the Boston bombing suspect "extensively" without first Mirandizing him
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/20/boston-marathon-dzho...
Sat, 2013-04-20 12:41
#192
Sat, 2013-04-20 12:45
#193
This is a slipery slope.
Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights? When the law gets bent out of shape for him, it’s easier to bend out of shape for the rest of us.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/04/dz...
Sat, 2013-04-20 14:15
#194
As for cheering on the police and security agents in their hummers and light armored vehicles, the people of America can choose to live in whatever kind of country they want. Now if they would only extend that courtesy to the rest of the planet.
I don't know about that. I don't think the U.S. had anything to do with the laws regarding assembly brought in by Jean Charest. And unlike the police curfew, they are still in place. Same thing for a number of laws which I'd say are far more restrictive in Canada than what the U.S. has. To use your turn of phrase, we chose that (even though neither you nor I did).
And regarding some of the other comments upthread, you don't have to look far in the news to see tragedies turned into rallies for political groups, states, and religions. The U.S. is hardly the only (and far from the worst) practitioner.
Why do I say that? because side by side with the media exploitation there are strong voices of moderation and warning.
Speaking of which, Jezebel writer Sara Benincasa made some interesting points regarding the exploitation of events like this. She's a bit more direct about it than I might be in a forum like this:
http://jezebel.com/tragedy-is-not-a-competition-how-to-talk-about-boston...
Sat, 2013-04-20 14:25
#195
Nice post Winston but hardly related to anything I posted. Why use me as a foil when you aren't even talking about the same things?
As for your guilt – I'd say it's entirely unnecessary. You are allowed to feel bad for bombing victims in Boston and drone strike victims in Pakistan. You are even allowed to hold these two thoughts in your head at the same time. Unlike your friend, who seems to see life as an either/or proposition, you seem to grasp the concept that reality is far more complicated than anything one might express in a Facebook status update.
http://jezebel.com/tragedy-is-not-a-competition-how-to-talk-about-boston...
Sat, 2013-04-20 14:30
#196
V
Sat, 2013-04-20 14:30
#197
ACLU Slams Eric Holder On Decision To Alter Miranda Protections
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/10/aclu-slams-eric-holder-on_n_570...
Sat, 2013-04-20 14:32
#198
@ k
I think I made it clear which part of my comment was a direct response to your words (that would be the first paragraph), and which was a more general response to some of the ideas brought up by a number of people in this thread.
Sat, 2013-04-20 14:33
#199
Sen. Lindsey Graham: Boston bombing “is Exhibit A of why the homeland is the battlefield”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/04/19/sen-lindsey...
Sat, 2013-04-20 14:34
#200
Repulsive progressive hypocrisy A new poll shows deep support among liberals for the very Bush/Cheney policies they once pretended to despise
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsive_progressive_hypocrisy/
Sat, 2013-04-20 14:36
#201
Attorney General Holder defends execution without charges A new speech by Eric Holder cements Obama's legacy as the president who pioneered secretive, charge-less executions
http://www.salon.com/2012/03/06/attorney_general_holder_defends_executio...