no
Giambrone by-election imbroglio
Tue, 2013-07-23 18:21
#52
Tue, 2013-07-23 18:44
#53
Kaitlin McNabb
it has zero to do with him being "a white person who pees standing up". Its that he is a well-known person who has a lengthy resume who could be considered a "household name" - compared to someone who is a complete unknown.Actually, being a white man is precisely why he has a lengthy resume and is a household name. This is how systemic sexism works. It's real.
I'm pretty sure this comment won't get through, given the decidedly biased and eccentric moderation at babble, but is Maysie's comment not both racist and sexist? If not why not? She's beating up on someone for being a white guy.
And my personal belief is that if the only way to make a point is to use the word "systemic" then the point is not corroborated. It's just lazy - I assert that there's a buncha racism (or sexism) even though I cannot specify anyone who is an actual racist (or sexist)- it's in the air, or something.
Stating something is 'systemic' as in 'systemic racism' or 'systemic sexism' is not lazy, it is on point and fully justified. In fact, I believe the entirety of babble discussions and topics are filled with examples as such.
M is pointing out that maybe this opportunities came because he is a white dude and not say a marginalized person and that is why he has been afforded such a long resume.
There is nothing outrageous about that statement.
Sure, it could not be true, but it doesn't mean it's not an avenue we should question, explore or could exist.
Also, racism and sexism are terms that are applied to and defined by the oppressed; therefore, being a white male is not being oppressed, and these terms don't apply. White men are historically and presently in the postions of power.
Oh, and, last note here, maybe stop attacking the mods because that is not super productive by any means.
Tue, 2013-07-23 19:32
#54
it has zero to do with him being "a white person who pees standing up". Its that he is a well-known person who has a lengthy resume who could be considered a "household name" - compared to someone who is a complete unknown.Actually, being a white man is precisely why he has a lengthy resume and is a household name. This is how systemic sexism works. It's real.
I'm pretty sure this comment won't get through, given the decidedly biased and eccentric moderation at babble, but is Maysie's comment not both racist and sexist? If not why not? She's beating up on someone for being a white guy.
And my personal belief is that if the only way to make a point is to use the word "systemic" then the point is not corroborated. It's just lazy - I assert that there's a buncha racism (or sexism) even though I cannot specify anyone who is an actual racist (or sexist)- it's in the air, or something.
Stating something is 'systemic' as in 'systemic racism' or 'systemic sexism' is not lazy, it is on point and fully justified. In fact, I believe the entirety of babble discussions and topics are filled with examples as such.
M is pointing out that maybe this opportunities came because he is a white dude and not say a marginalized person and that is why he has been afforded such a long resume.
There is nothing outrageous about that statement.
Sure, it could not be true, but it doesn't mean it's not an avenue we should question, explore or could exist.
Also, racism and sexism are terms that are applied to and defined by the oppressed; therefore, being a white male is not being oppressed, and these terms don't apply. White men are historically and presently in the postions of power.
Oh, and, last note here, maybe stop attacking the mods because that is not super productive by any means.
Thanks, Kaitlin. I appreciate your candour, but you are actually one of the best mods here so any criticism I directed was not in your direction.
I totally disagree, however, with your proposed definitions of racism and sexism. If Maysie beats up on white guys, she is completely being racist and sexist. By definition. Even if, for some odd reason, we're not supposed to notice that.
Tue, 2013-07-23 20:24
#55
Northreport, Very nice of you to reference an article by Sue Anne Levy, a friend of Canadian progressives for years.
Tue, 2013-07-23 20:29
#56
Giambrone's disgraceful personal behaviour in the public spotlight speaks volumes about his credibility. Private citizens may act as they wish, but those who wish to be public officials should be held to a higher standard of personal integrity. I cannot see how Giambrone can ever be taken seriously as a political candidate for any party, let alone the NDP. On the other hand, if Marion Barry can get re-elected, I suppose anything goes. It is just as well I do not have the opportunity not to vote for him.
Tue, 2013-07-23 20:47
#57
it has zero to do with him being "a white person who pees standing up". Its that he is a well-known person who has a lengthy resume who could be considered a "household name" - compared to someone who is a complete unknown.Actually, being a white man is precisely why he has a lengthy resume and is a household name. This is how systemic sexism works. It's real.
I'm pretty sure this comment won't get through, given the decidedly biased and eccentric moderation at babble, but is Maysie's comment not both racist and sexist? If not why not? She's beating up on someone for being a white guy.
And my personal belief is that if the only way to make a point is to use the word "systemic" then the point is not corroborated. It's just lazy - I assert that there's a buncha racism (or sexism) even though I cannot specify anyone who is an actual racist (or sexist)- it's in the air, or something.
Stating something is 'systemic' as in 'systemic racism' or 'systemic sexism' is not lazy, it is on point and fully justified. In fact, I believe the entirety of babble discussions and topics are filled with examples as such.
M is pointing out that maybe this opportunities came because he is a white dude and not say a marginalized person and that is why he has been afforded such a long resume.
There is nothing outrageous about that statement.
Sure, it could not be true, but it doesn't mean it's not an avenue we should question, explore or could exist.
Also, racism and sexism are terms that are applied to and defined by the oppressed; therefore, being a white male is not being oppressed, and these terms don't apply. White men are historically and presently in the postions of power.
Oh, and, last note here, maybe stop attacking the mods because that is not super productive by any means.
Because a particular group has historically been priviledged and in positions of power, does not mean they cannot be subjected to racism and prejudice. Moreover, there are white men who are gay, have disabilities, and are part of oppressed groups. For you to assume that being a white male means, and I quote, "not being oppressed" is extremely ignorant on your part.
Tue, 2013-07-23 21:02
#58
Because a particular group has historically been priviledged and in positions of power, does not mean they cannot be subjected to racism and prejudice. Moreover, there are white men who are gay, have disabilities, and are part of oppressed groups. For you to assume that being a white male means, and I quote, "not being oppressed" is extremely ignorant on your part.
Yes, white people can be oppressed. Yes, men can be oppressed. But men are not oppressed because they're men, and white people are not oppressed because they're white. If white men are oppressed, it's for other reasons, like the ones you've mentioned.
Tue, 2013-07-23 22:46
#59
This episode may end up ending Giambrone's political career(clearly, he HAS to exceed or at least match the vote share achieved by the last ONDP candidate in this riding if he's ever to be able to make a case that he should get another ONDP nomination).
In addition to the issues of electability and personal character this raises with Giambrone, it also leads, potentially, to real questions about whether Horwath should stay on as party leader, especially if it were to be discovered that she played any role in shoehorning Giambrone into this nomination(a transparent and open investigation of this whole nomination process should be undertaken by the provincial party as soon as possible, and recommendations for nomination reform, such as, perhaps, a rule barring members of the Selection Committee from seeking a nomination within a year of their resignation from the committee).
Is it possible that Horwath thinks that, if she is to push the party into contention for power, that she has to be seen periodically overruling the wishes of the rank-and-file and putting the "activist" types in their place? That she must make the ONDP into a party that clearly has an "in-crowd" and an "out-crowd"?
Or that she thinks that the party must avoid having TOO multicultural a face in its candidate slate?
Or that she thinks that people who don't vote ONDP now will start voting for it if takes the "D" out of the party's values?
It looks like Horwath, like a lot of other "center-left" party leaders, sees her job as being more about saying "no" to loyal voters and about reassuring current non-ONDP voters that an ONDP government wouldn't change much of anything than about using power to actually do anything that matters. If that is the case, clearly she shouldn't BE leading the party at all, because an ONDP government that sees "safety" and "respectability" as being more important than core values wouldn't be different on any significant level than an Ontario Liberal or even an Ontario PC government.
Wed, 2013-07-24 00:45
#60
Catchfire
babble is NOT intended as a place where the basic and fundamental values of human rights, feminism, anti-racism and labour rights are to be debated or refought. Anyone who joins babble who indicates intentions to challenge these rights and principles may be seen as disruptive to the nature of the forum.
Thanks all!
Wed, 2013-07-24 01:00
#61
RevolutionPlease
Us white guys are getting scared we can't get by on privilege soon...
Wed, 2013-07-24 01:02
#62
This episode may end up ending Giambrone's political career(clearly, he HAS to exceed or at least match the vote share achieved by the last ONDP candidate in this riding if he's ever to be able to make a case that he should get another ONDP nomination).
Just on the face of it, why was Giambrone parachuted into this riding in the first place? It doesn't have a strong NDP history to begin with. If your party wanted to help a prominent person within advance his or her political career, wouldn't it make more sense to choose a safe riding? To say nothing of the fact that the nomination process, regardless of what may be technically legal, has left a bad taste in some people's mouths. And Giambrone doesn't seem to have a great grasp of issues facing Scarborough. So what was gained by causing needless divisions within the party to parachute in someone with no local connection to an area that isn't that strong for the NDP in the first place? Surely they could have waited for the general election and found a riding that was a better fit for Giambrone? What was his hurry? Why now?
Wed, 2013-07-24 01:52
#63
It does suggest that this was more about making sure that Amarjeet Chhabra wasn't the ONDP nominee in this byelection than about any positive motivation.
With all due respect, you are the only one suggesting that, and that is based on pure conjecture and speculation without any hard evidence to back it up.
Wed, 2013-07-24 02:24
#64
self-delete.
Wed, 2013-07-24 02:25
#65
I was careful to use terms like "suggest" rather than "prove". But you're right, the point is not as yet supported. I've now deleted the post.
Wed, 2013-07-24 10:52
#66
Meanwhile according to the latest Ontariu-wide poll the ONDP has gained 3 points and is now at 27%, just behind the Liberals at 31% and the PCs at 36%...the only possible explanation for this surge has to be the deluge of positive publicity and hype around Adam Giambrone's candidacy!
http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/07/24/tories_add_to_lead_ove...
Wed, 2013-07-24 11:58
#67
Pogo
High profile NDP quits nomination committee to run in riding that there is little hope of winning and that any vote total will be forgotten two days after the vote. There is only one other candidate. I don't think it is wrong to think that ensuring she did not carry the banner was a possible motivation. Also getting legitimate voters to show up and vote is not just technically okay, it is what good candidates do.I was careful to use terms like "suggest" rather than "prove". But you're right, the point is not as yet supported. I've now deleted the post.
Wed, 2013-07-24 12:24
#68
High profile NDP quits nomination committee to run in riding that there is little hope of winning and that any vote total will be forgotten two days after the vote. There is only one other candidate. I don't think it is wrong to think that ensuring she did not carry the banner was a possible motivation. Also getting legitimate voters to show up and vote is not just technically okay, it is what good candidates do.I was careful to use terms like "suggest" rather than "prove". But you're right, the point is not as yet supported. I've now deleted the post.
The implication was that Chhabra specifically had to be stopped. If anything, for a party looking to expand, it seems that she would be a candidate that the party would love to have in terms of reaching out to new demographics. (Giambrone himself recruited her.) What went on simply suggests that the NDP used this as an opportunity to advance Giambrone's political career, and that he would have done so regardless of who the other candidates were.
Wed, 2013-07-24 15:13
#69
For all we know there might have been a couple of other people who were going to run for the nomination who dropped out when they heard Giambrone wanted to run. I suspect, he decided he wanted to run and it was irrelevant to him who else was in the running. It happened that it was Chabbra who had announced a few hours before Giambrone announced, but it could just as easily have been a middle aged white guy who was just as unknown to the general public as she was.
Wed, 2013-07-24 20:53
#70
Still doesn't explain why he'd want to run in a riding he most likely can't win. That's a waste of a "star candidate".
If nothing else, would you at least agree that he owes Chhabra an apology for standing against her AFTER he'd encouraged her to seek that nomination?
Wed, 2013-07-24 21:33
#71
Meanwhile according to the latest Ontariu-wide poll the ONDP has gained 3 points and is now at 27%, just behind the Liberals at 31% and the PCs at 36%...the only possible explanation for this surge has to be the deluge of positive publicity and hype around Adam Giambrone's candidacy!
I'd suspect the candidacies in the three non-416 byelections are the *real* sleeper reflection/explanation of the surge here.
Sun, 2021-11-21 11:49
#72
.
Sun, 2021-11-21 11:50
#73
.
Wed, 2013-07-24 22:24
#74
For what it is worth, I do think that Giambrone will increase the NDP vote in Scarborough-Guildwood. Enough to win? Possibly, but I would not be surprised to see a vote share above 24-25%, which would not be out of line with the polls. That would be a solid result, with a substantial increase on 2011's share.
Thu, 2013-07-25 01:39
#75
This episode may end up ending Giambrone's political career(clearly, he HAS to exceed or at least match the vote share achieved by the last ONDP candidate in this riding if he's ever to be able to make a case that he should get another ONDP nomination).
In addition to the issues of electability and personal character this raises with Giambrone, it also leads, potentially, to real questions about whether Horwath should stay on as party leader, especially if it were to be discovered that she played any role in shoehorning Giambrone into this nomination(a transparent and open investigation of this whole nomination process should be undertaken by the provincial party as soon as possible, and recommendations for nomination reform, such as, perhaps, a rule barring members of the Selection Committee from seeking a nomination within a year of their resignation from the committee).
Is it possible that Horwath thinks that, if she is to push the party into contention for power, that she has to be seen periodically overruling the wishes of the rank-and-file and putting the "activist" types in their place? That she must make the ONDP into a party that clearly has an "in-crowd" and an "out-crowd"?
Or that she thinks that the party must avoid having TOO multicultural a face in its candidate slate?
Or that she thinks that people who don't vote ONDP now will start voting for it if takes the "D" out of the party's values?
It looks like Horwath, like a lot of other "center-left" party leaders, sees her job as being more about saying "no" to loyal voters and about reassuring current non-ONDP voters that an ONDP government wouldn't change much of anything than about using power to actually do anything that matters. If that is the case, clearly she shouldn't BE leading the party at all, because an ONDP government that sees "safety" and "respectability" as being more important than core values wouldn't be different on any significant level than an Ontario Liberal or even an Ontario PC government.
What a load of crap. Andrea was mentored by Peter Kormos, a very progressive and left leaning New Dem. He also supported her for the NDP leadership.
OK, then, how would YOU describe the way Horwath interacts with party activists and social movement types?
Thu, 2013-07-25 12:14
#76
OK, then, how would YOU describe the way Horwath interacts with party activists and social movement types?
Perfection. Just like the NDP in every jurisdiction in Canada. Now if only the stupid voters would realize that they will all get a pony if the NDP is elected life would be great.
Thu, 2013-07-25 12:58
#77
OK, then, how would YOU describe the way Horwath interacts with party activists and social movement types?
Perfection. Just like the NDP in every jurisdiction in Canada. Now if only the stupid voters would realize that they will all get a pony if the NDP is elected life would be great.
yup. this perfectly encapsulates the level of objectivity certain NDP partisans have towards their party.
Giambrone is an opportunist, with poor judgment, an inflated sense of entitlement and questionable ethics (and I say this based on his actions in municipal government and not his personal issues) The NDP showed poor judgment nominating him. It was a happy day for Toronto when he slinked away from municipal politics.
Thu, 2013-07-25 14:21
#78
OK, then, how would YOU describe the way Horwath interacts with party activists and social movement types?
Perfection. Just like the NDP in every jurisdiction in Canada. Now if only the stupid voters would realize that they will all get a pony if the NDP is elected life would be great.
Giambrone is an opportunist, with poor judgment, an inflated sense of entitlement and questionable ethics (and I say this based on his actions in municipal government and not his personal issues) The NDP showed poor judgment nominating him. It was a happy day for Toronto when he slinked away from municipal politics.
He's the entitled one? Strong, coming from someone posting their opinions as hard facts.
Thu, 2013-07-25 21:46
#79
I'm pretty sure kropotkin was being sarcastic there, summer-he's the last person you could ever call an "NDP partisan"(the fact that he took his posting name from one of history's most famous anarchist thinkers is a pretty good hint of the level of trust kropotkin places in any form of electoral politics).
Thu, 2013-07-25 22:17
#80
I have never claimed to be a Canadian...I am a left-wing Yank who follows Canadian politics and admires those Canadian leftists who stand up courageously for egalitarian democratic ideals and for peace in the face of the imperial arrogance of the leaders of my country. The reason I posted on this incident was that I read accounts of the event from left-Canadians that I trust and respect.
You could call it internationalism, and I'm fine with Canadians saying whatever they want to say about events in the States, for what that's worth to you.
That's the best thing I've read in this thread. Thank you, Ken!
Thu, 2013-07-25 23:09
#81
You're welcome, U. How's the weather in Montreal today?
Thu, 2013-07-25 23:14
#82
It was cool, sunny, and generally lovely, considering the crazy wind storms of last Friday and the aftermath, with up to 1/2 million homes out of power. Some friends are just recovering after 6 days of outage. We are being punished for something or other.
Fri, 2013-07-26 02:05
#83
OK, then, how would YOU describe the way Horwath interacts with party activists and social movement types?
Perfection. Just like the NDP in every jurisdiction in Canada. Now if only the stupid voters would realize that they will all get a pony if the NDP is elected life would be great.
Giambrone is an opportunist, with poor judgment, an inflated sense of entitlement and questionable ethics (and I say this based on his actions in municipal government and not his personal issues) The NDP showed poor judgment nominating him. It was a happy day for Toronto when he slinked away from municipal politics.
He's the entitled one? Strong, coming from someone posting their opinions as hard facts.
I concur with this opinion. But he's sure got himself smeared all over the riding. Pretty sure he'll lose nonetheless. Hope so.
Fri, 2013-07-26 14:26
#84
I'm pretty sure kropotkin was being sarcastic there, summer-he's the last person you could ever call an "NDP partisan"(the fact that he took his posting name from one of history's most famous anarchist thinkers is a pretty good hint of the level of trust kropotkin places in any form of electoral politics).
Oh - I could tell he was being sarcastic (the part about the ponies was a pretty big giveaway). My comment was meant to agree with his!
Fri, 2013-07-26 14:33
#85
Giambrone is an opportunist, with poor judgment, an inflated sense of entitlement and questionable ethics (and I say this based on his actions in municipal government and not his personal issues) The NDP showed poor judgment nominating him. It was a happy day for Toronto when he slinked away from municipal politics.
He's the entitled one? Strong, coming from someone posting their opinions as hard facts.
Toaster, in the future, please interpret all of my posts on a politician's character as if they were prefaced with a silent "IMO".
In fact [IMO] that is the only way to interpret anyone's contributions to most political discussions.
I think you are likley confusing the phrase "hard facts" with "strong opinion". There is no question that I have a very strong negative opinion about Giambrone.
Fri, 2013-07-26 15:19
#86
There is no question that I have a very strong negative opinion about Giambrone.
Why, is it because you don't like people who have sex?
Fri, 2013-07-26 15:29
#87
Giambrone is an opportunist, with poor judgment, an inflated sense of entitlement and questionable ethics (and I say this based on his actions in municipal government and not his personal issues) The NDP showed poor judgment nominating him. It was a happy day for Toronto when he slinked away from municipal politics.
He's the entitled one? Strong, coming from someone posting their opinions as hard facts.
Toaster, in the future, please interpret all of my posts on a politician's character as if they were prefaced with a silent "IMO".
In fact [IMO] that is the only way to interpret anyone's contributions to most political discussions.
I think you are likley confusing the phrase "hard facts" with "strong opinion". There is no question that I have a very strong negative opinion about Giambrone.
Fair enough.
Fri, 2013-07-26 17:44
#88
In BC we just had an election where the Liberals offered a pony and a unicorn and the voters preferred believing that to believing the NDP's one small step campaign that seemed to be saying that Stone Soup would solve the provinces problems.
Sun, 2021-11-21 11:51
#89
.
Sat, 2013-07-27 01:54
#90
Your comments about the Toronto Star are valid, but this isn't just about the Star.
There were real issues of insensitivity and arrogance in the way Giambrone handled himself here(and, if nothing else, he does owe an apology to Chhabra for running against her AFTER he encouraged her to run for the nomination...if you help persuade a person to run for something, it can't ever be cool to run against that person for the same office-unless you've got proof that that person is an axe murderer or something, and there are no skeletons in Chhabra's closet, so even that extreme example doesn't hold here).
Don't get me wrong-I'd campaign for the guy if I lived in Scarborough because it's always good to have the NDP make a gain, but whatever result this byelection produces, Giambrone needs to clearly and PUBLICLY explain why he did what he did...that's simply what should be asked of anyone who wishes to be a public figure). And I'd say that Chhabra is now pretty much owed a nomination in a winnable riding at the next provincial election.
And if he only ends up 21% after all this drama, it will make it damn hard for the guy to make any case that any riding should ever nominate him again. The only case he could make for a renomination at the provincial election would be if he took the ONDP vote in this riding to massively unprecedented heights.
btw, jan, check your pm's in a few...there are some things I'd like to talk about with you that don't really fit in this thread.
Sat, 2013-07-27 03:11
#91
Now back to bashing Giambrone which was outed by the Toronto Star, a good liberal rag. I remember it was TorStar who also ran that garbage on Layton and Chow living in coop housing even though they paid fair market rent. Why does the Lib star want to take out NDPers?
Sure Jan, it's all a hit job by the Toronto Star. It's not like anybody associated with the NDP can ever do wrong, they are all gods and must be worshipped accordingly.
Giambrone looks to me as if he is a career politician with a sense of entitlement, who is far more concerned about his own personal advancement than actually representing the people he claims to represent. Why is he jumping into Scarborough now? Why can't he wait until an opportunity comes up in a riding that is more suited to his background?
Sat, 2013-07-27 10:50
#92
I didn't say the NDP can do no harm. It's just that I always saw the NDP as a party that wasn't so black and white. People do make mistakes, and should be given second chances. Giambrone deserves a 2nd chance.
Take note, I posted that in Scarborough, it is transportation that is the major issue, one in which Giambrone as former chair of the TCC would give him much knowledge and understanding of.
Sat, 2013-07-27 15:49
#93
Allowing for mistakes and giving second chances is one thing. General observations about a person's character are completely different, and it's those observations that are at issue here.
Sun, 2021-11-21 11:52
#94
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Sun, 2013-07-28 11:58
#95
Those without sin may cast the first stone.
So I guess all the threads about Senators and Trudeau's speaking engagements follow a different set of morals. I believe you meant that any one wanting to cast aspirations against an NDP politician must be completely without sin. Your statement was overly broad given your obvious meaning.
Sun, 2021-11-21 11:53
#96
.
Sun, 2013-07-28 16:17
#97
Who are you to determine that a sinner like me should not be allowed to have an opinion about someone's character. For those of us who have seen the NDP up close and personal the idea that they are beyond moral reproach is a sick joke but then I live in a province with Dix as a leader and Sihota as the party President. The idea that "my" politicians are beyond reproach reminds me of Liberal arrogance.
Sun, 2013-07-28 17:14
#98
Giambrone's a pretty smart guy who's done a lot for the TTC (and for the NDP). Expanded routes, transferable passes, etc. He began some very important modernizations. Mind you, I suspect he's also a fierce campaigner, which can be offputting to some. If Chhabra feels wronged, then she should challenge it.
Sun, 2013-07-28 22:22
#99
There is no question that I have a very strong negative opinion about Giambrone.
Why, is it because you don't like people who have sex?
Like I said, it has nothing to do with his personal life. This guy's blog does a good job of summarizing the problems with Giambrone.
http://davenportdemocracy.blogspot.ca/2011/02/we-need-to-banish-adam-giambrone.html (FWIW, he appears to support the NDP)
Sun, 2013-07-28 23:07
#100
Stock, cut it out already. The earlier issue with Giambrone was never that "he had sex"-it was that he was and is a member a party that supposedly supports feminist values and, despite that, CHEATED ON HIS FIANCE. Nobody was demanding that Giambrone be chaste...just faithful to the person he loved and respectful of women.
It was never about sex in and of itself, and you damn well know it. Try making a positive case FOR Giambrone(I seriously doubt HE would think you're helping him with that cyber-sneering you've been engaging in here...why don't you go over to Scarborough and canvass for the guy instead?) instead of disrespecting people and trivializing the issues here. Nobody was making a big deal over nothing in this discussion, and nobody deserved to be treated like they had no right to express their concerns. You're better than that.
(sorry for shadow-modding...but this has gone on long enough).
Sun, 2013-07-28 23:14
#101
This guy's blog does a good job of summarizing the problems with Giambrone.http://davenportdemocracy.blogspot.ca/2011/02/we-need-to-banish-adam-giambrone.html (FWIW, he appears to support the NDP)
If true, Giambrone does seem to have some character issues.
Interestingly enough, people claim that Giambrone is well-suited to win Scarborough because of his tenure with the TTC and that there are transit issues in Scarborough. I'm sure that's not the only issue facing local voters?