Is it ok for men to call themselves feminists?

I think Meghan's point, as I read it, wasn't that men can't be feminists, but that actions speak louder than words. Don't call yourself a feminist, be one.

I think the answer to the question in the OP depends on the answer to this question: "What is a feminist?" 

I think a feminist is a person who believes in equal political, economic, and social rights for men and women.  So my answer to the OP is "of course".

See also:  http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/08/08/why_am_i_a_male_feminist_because_i_m_selfish.html

I've known many men during my life, most casually, a few intimately; only one ever identified as a feminist. He was the most unhappy man I've ever known. Coincidence?... I don't believe in coincidence.

Exactly. That's what I meant Tehanu, and that reputation is generally built by action.

In fact, I don't think people should get all that bent out of shape about what others call them either, but since we're talking about names, it is often a bit more accurate than the honorifics people anoint themselves with.

I don't mean to pooh pooh it in all cases, and if it has particular meaning for someone to call himself something, fine. I just don't see that it has any real meaning or effect, is all.

For myself, as sympathetic as I might be about some issues, it would really feel like a sham to call myself that - especially given the line that some hold that what you do not experience you do not really understand, which I think has some truth to it.

I feel that at a time when more and more young women are reluctant to identify as feminists, or worse, see it as a bad word, it is important for both men and women to wear the label proudly.  My fear is that if we don't continue to own the word, it will get redefined by those who oppose it.  That's why my wife has a button on her jacket that says "This is what a feminist looks like".

I am slowly learning how to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.  I have had a few opportunities to confront both casual and explicit sexism, and even though my repressed British upbringing screams at me to avoid conflict, I have not let them pass.  While my beliefs are feminist beliefs, these days I think of myself more as a feminist ally, because I will never be fighting the same fight that women do.  But I try to do my part.

Weltschmerz wrote:

I feel that at a time when more and more young women are reluctant to identify as feminists, or worse, see it as a bad word, it is important for both men and women to wear the label proudly.

Why? I cast off labels, political, social or otherwise, years ago; I didn't need them then, I don't need 'em now.

Left Turn wrote:

I was quite bothered by it, whereas most other men would not be phased by it.

Tehanu wrote:

It's good that you noticed it, LT, so in terms of actions, did you say anything in support of the cashier? Challenging sexism is so very important, and in my experience, men exhibiting sexist behaviour are much more likely to pay attention to another man raising it as an issue, than they would to a woman.

Even something as simple as "excuse me, I noticed how you were talking to her, and it made me feel really uncomfortable" can be powerful.

Left Turn wrote:

He initially addressed the cashier in a sexist manner but then gave his order and paid for it in a more neutral manner. Given that the cashier took it without appearing phased by it herself, I'd have potentially made the situation much worse by saying anything, so I didn't.

She likely appeared unphased by it because she hears crap like that all the time. I frequently am referred to by the patronizing and condescending "dear".. It's no better or worse than women of all ages being called "girls".

Quote:

I was by myself, but If I'd been with a friend who understands sexism, I'd have pointed it out to the friend.

When challenged, the male response is often, "I meant it as a compliment," as if we should all be so grateful. Well, I'd be ever so much more grateful if these clueless entitled idiots would pull their heads out of their asses and join the 21st century, but saying so would take valuable seconds away from my life, when I could otherwise be preparing a mental shopping list, or deciding when it's time to get the cat neutered. My point is, women have bigger, more important issues to deal with. If more men would vocally step up to the plate more often, it would relieve us of some of the burden of dealing with these oblivious fools.

Bacchus my friend, spend five minutes with me in a shopping mall on a Saturday afternoon, and you will witness the full spectrum of my most tediously verbose misanthropy.

Wow. You 'let' her drive? How enlightened of you ... ;)

Left Turn wrote:

 

He addressed the cashier as "Hey beautiful." Definitely sexist, but maybe not as over the top as my description made it seem like it might be.

You did make it sound a bit more sinister than a customer addressing the cashier as beautiful (but maybe that's still sexist just the same?)

I have a question (moderator permitting), is a female waitress addressing a male patron with "dear" or "hun" the same as LeftTurns example of a male customer addressing the cashier as beautiful?

 

Oh goodie, let's have a discussion - in the FF no less - as to whether a server calling a customer "dear" is equivalent to a male customer calling a female employee "hey beautiful".

I strongly object to this, and I'm flagging this as offensive - provocative, ignorant, baiting.

 

Unionist, in an effort to keep this thread on topic I am editing my response. (I will save a copy of it and PM it to you if you wish).

 

I will just say that I feel you are not only guilty of baiting in this thread with your comment about concealed weapons but in fact making a personal attack against me which I feel is bordering on harassment and stalking- by taking a topic in a completely unrelated thread and bringing it to this one.  Your comment had nothing to do with this topic, you acting offended over my comment (which I even indicated could be inappropriate for this thread to the mods) doesn't cover up for it.

I have inturn contacted the moderators in order to speak with them and the site owners about your harassment and singling me out in such a personal way. While I wait to speak with the moderators and site owners please stop taking topics I speak about and dragging them in to completely unrelated topics in attempts to discred me or make fun of me, if you don't like my stance on another issue don't drag that  into unrelated topics.

That makes sense, I never thought of it that way.

I've said to my daughter "say thank you to the pretty lady" if a server brings her crayons or something. I've also had my daughter point out children of difference races and responded by saying something along the lines of "Yes her skin is brown isn't she pretty"   I've never stopped to wonder if it's appropriate or not.   I'm probably getting off topic though sorry.

Rebecca West wrote:

I frequently am referred to by the patronizing and condescending "dear".. It's no better or worse than women of all ages being called "girls"...

In my experience women are just as likely as men to describe women of all ages as 'girls'; in fact I'll go out on a limb and say tis more common in my social and professional circles for women to overuse the term than men.

 

When women refer to other women as girls, the power dynamic is very different from when men refer to women as girls. It isn't analogous, nor is it necessarily based in current or historical gender inequity.

Well, since it's clearly OK for men to BE feminists (people who say otherwise, please show your work), the real question is whether they are allowed to say a thing that is true. And if they are not allowed to say this, then who is not allowing, and why?

I think it is just fine if women call me a feminist. I personally would never refer to myself as such. Label jars not people is still one of my favourite sayings and after decades of advocating on behalf of people with developmental disabilities I would not call myself a disabled activist.  After decades of working on campaigns for NDP candidates I am still not a social democrat. However over the decades of fighting union battles I have always proudly called myself a trade unionist.

I think it is important to know when you are an ally and when you are fighting your own battles with the help of allies. For me the point of all activism is a society where justice and respect for all becomes a reality.  Supporting progressive change is the key to moving society forward not self aggrandizement.

[img]http://reisman.lohudblogs.com/files/2011/06/rains.jpg[/img]

I'm shocked, shocked! To find that a thread called "why can't men be feminists" slid so easily into Feminism 101.

ygtbk: It's called appropriation. Let's try an anology, sometimes those help. See, I may deeply admire First Nations culture (let's go generic and not name a specific nation, after all, just like feminists, everyone's pretty much the same, right?). I have dreamcatchers in every window. I go to every public drumming event I can find. I only refer to Turtle Island. I am appalled that centuries ago, oops, decades ago, oops, now, that there has been oppression of FN people by the Canadian government. Oh, and by individual Canadians but not me, right? I have been to a sweatlodge and it was a profound experience. My dream is to be given an eagle feather. I am always very sympathetic when I hear of Idle No More protests. It's possible my great-grandmother was FN so in a way I have a bond, not so?

And yet the FN people I know don't seem to embrace me with open arms as their long-lost sister. Why? Oh, why, why?

They might ask:

How am I actually an ally?

Does it seem I'm more concerned about the cool trappings than the core issues?

Has anyone seen me DO anything to address systemic oppression, rather than just talk about it?

Have I given any indication that when the going gets rough, I'm not going to disappear?

When people challenge me, do I react defensively, or do I listen to why my behaviour might be annoying or offensive?

Do I seem to want a cookie for every little thing I do?

When they point out that I'll never experience the same oppression, that I can be an ally but not one of them, that it feels colonial [patriarchal] to have a white person [man] swoop in and try and solve everything, do I respond with "people who say otherwise, please show your work" thereby creating more work for them?

There's a reason why many feminists find this [url=http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-finally-put-in-charge-of-struggling... article hilarious, yet sad.

What's wrong with calling yourself an ally? I'll tell you, a lot of feminists are more likely to trust a man who says he's an ally, or pro-feminist. Because that's handy shorthand for him to demonstrate he's aware of his own privilege.

And you know what? When men say they're feminist allies or pro-feminist, it does indeed accomplish the goal of society getting a "clear indication that there are men who take a stand against patriarchy and for women's rights" as Left Turn put it (by the way, I'd be interested in seeing which feminists have said that they want men to call themselves feminists for that reason?).

...

Left Turn, you opened the door for this, so I think you need to hear it. You characterised the incident in the pasta bar as "addressing the young woman cashier in a totally sexist manner," that you were quite bothered by it, and that things like that affect you deeply, unlike other men. But when I asked you if you said anything, you minimised the incident. So it seems you wanted a cookie for noticing, but that in hindsight it wasn't serious enough for you to get into a potentially uncomfortable conversation with the guy. Um. 

(Yes, I know that the cookie thing can get guys defensive. But think about why that is, okay?)

The female cashier has no idea of your good intentions. For her, this is just another time she has to deal with a guy using his privilege to comment on her looks. Probably it happens often enough that she doesn't notice or figures it's not a big deal, but maybe it bothers her a lot, who knows? The guy has no idea of your good intentions or observation. For him, he can continue to objectify any woman, especially in a subordinate position, and none of the people around him will ever challenge his right to do so.

Nothing changes.

Noticing sexism and not doing anything about it is not feminist.

And you're not going to like this at all, but citing an incident of what sounds like dramatic sexism, giving yourself credit for noticing it and using that as a demonstration of how advanced your feminist development is (you say other men wouldn't have noticed it, although who knows, maybe they did and also didn't do anything), then downplaying it when asked if you did anything ... that's not feminist either.

I suggested a gentle fairly non-confrontational script up above for incidents like that in the future. I also pointed out that for guys to challenge other men on their sexism is particularly effective. So, can I suggest that you make yourself a pact that, even though it's difficult, next time you see or hear a sexist incident you WILL say something to the guy?

We don't have to challenge sexism every time we see it, because lord knows we'd be exhausted in a day, but if something's serious enought that it deeply bothers you, then it's a good idea to think in advance, how will I address this if it happens again? And do so. That's part of being an ally.

 

I once read a saying, from some anonymous source, on the internet several years ago; "There are only two kinds of male feminists. One is the kind that wants to get into a woman's dress, the other is the kind that wants to get into a woman's pants." OK so it was intended to be humourous, though I realize some may take offense to it. But part of the humour is because there's a grain of truth to it.

I personally don't go around identifying myself as feminist, for a couple of reasons. One is the debate on whether it's morally and ethichally right for men to do so. Another one is I just don't feel comfortable with it, in no small part because of guys like Schwyzer. He's not the first prominent male to identify as feminist who revealed himself to be a fraud and a wolf in sheeps clothing. (Anyone remember Kyle Payne?) But the reality is any guy who makes a big point of advertising himself as feminist is going to be rightly regarded with suspicion and skepticism. Any guys who put themselves at front and center of the movement SHOULD be, IMNSHO. I can remember seeing pictures of the Slutwalk in Pasadena, California and I remember thinking how wrong it was for him (Schwyzer) to be there literally at the front of it all, carrying the banner and being a keynote speaker at the rally. It turns my stomach even more now, knowing what I do about him. He built himself a very elaborate facade of legitimacy. There are lots other Hugo Schwyzers around. But if there's anything good to be said about them, it's that at least that they're a lot less sophisticated and their transparency is pretty easy to spot. Especially to women who are experienced activists.

Rebecca West wrote:

ygtbk wrote:

As for free speech, my point is simply that if an apple is red, I don't think I need permission to call it red. The principle generalizes.

I'd buy that if we were talking about the colors of fruit, but we're not.

Although you may not intend it, reducing the veracity of discussion about men and feminism in the FF to calling an apple red would be insulting if it weren't so ridiculous...

Since I have no intention of insulting you (as you have correctly determined), and since you asked me to clarify, let's start over.

There is a threshold question here. Do you think a man can be a feminist? If not, then there's little reason for this thread, since there is no way that he can legitimately call himself a feminist. If it's possible, then there's something to discuss. What do you think?