Is it ok for men to call themselves feminists?

71 posts / 0 new

Sat, 2013-08-17 18:02

ygtbk

@ Smith

I agree that ego-driven behaviour is less likely to turn out well. And I agree that there may in fact be different definitions of feminism.

My point is not to establish the One True Definition Of Feminism, but to ask whether it is possible, under different definitions, that men can be included as feminists. If the answer is uniformly no, then we have the answer to the thread question. If under at least one definition the answer is yes, then things get more interesting and there are at least three possibilities.

Sat, 2013-08-17 18:04

#53

Left Turn

Thanks to everyone who's responded to my question of whether it's ok for men to call themselves feminists. I appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses.

My thoughts after reading all the responses, especially those from our female babblers, are as follows. Basically I see it as a bit of a grey area. I doubt I'd get upset at men calling themselves feminists if they've clearly shown themselves to be against sexism and patriarchy, but I'll definitely be bothered by people like Hugo Schwyzer calling themselves feminists when they clearly don't meet even the weakest definition of the term. I'd be most likely to call myself a supporter of feminism, though I'm not likely to get too hung up on labels. The most important thing is to show that I'm against the sexism and patiarchy that women have to put up with on a daily basis. Because if I don't show that I'm against it, then it doesn't matter what I call myself.

Sat, 2013-08-17 19:14

#54

Dalyght

Can a man be a feminist? My partner, a man, is a feminist in thought, word and deed. And he raised two feminist daughters.

Sat, 2013-08-17 21:11

#55

Tehanu

Left Turn wrote:

Tehanu, I realised that my initial comment may have given the impression of a much more sexist interaction, stretched out over much more time, than was the case. Given what the incident was, speaking up could have created a situation that was more uncomfortable for the cashier than the original incident. As in when someone steps in to try and fix a situation and winds up making things worse. As in if the man tried to justify his actions it could easily have caused more sexism that was contained in the original incident.

Hoo boy. LT, maybe you only wanted to clarify something (which was already pretty clear) but this does come off as defensive. The article you referenced right at the top of the thread has this:

Quote:
It’s the idea that because one doesn’t see oneself as a sexist, everyone around us must also accept that one is not only not sexist, but is, actually, fighting for women’s equality. WITH THEIR MINDS, one supposes.

This is what I feel you're saying with your anecdote.

And the extent of the seriousness of the incident was not the point of my post. The point was taking action. The point was addressing sexism, not just noticing it. The point was that noticing sexist behaviour doesn't really count if it's only in your head, or as an illustration to show how you notice things that other guys don't. You think saying something may have made the situation worse? Did not saying anything make the situation better?

Left Turn, I get that you're sincere about this! Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to think about the many ways you could have taken action in the situation (rather than having me give you examples and scripts), and to plan how you can handle similar situations in the future. If you'd like to discuss this more I'm happy to engage, although I have to say that this thread is giving me one hell of a feminist headache.

And there are a TON of great resources online, if you google such things as "addressing sexist behaviour" or "how to be a good male ally" or suchlike. I'll even throw in some gimmes:

[url=http://stopsexistremarks.org/]Stop Sexist Remarks[/url]; it includes a nifty section for [url=http://stopsexistremarks.org/for-men-who-want-to-stop-sexist-remarks/]men who want to stop sexist remarks[/url].

[url=http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/male-allies/]Stop Street Harassment[/url] - Male allies.

[url=http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-ways-for-men-to-be-allies-to-women... ways for men to be allies[/url].

[url=http://savp.vassar.edu/facts/bystander-intervention.html]Bystander intervention[/url] - for sexual assault prevention, but grand for addressing sexist comments as well.

***

ygbtk, you have illustrated very effectively the point of this thread, by talking down to or ignoring women, by privileging male posters, by derailing, by engaging in hyperbole and rhetoric. Maybe it wasn't intentional or you felt you were discussing in good faith, but that's how it came across, strongly. Given that, why on earth would it matter to you if feminists are okay with you calling yourself a feminist?

What would be the point?

***

Personally, I think if you're a guy who wants to call yourself a feminist, fill your boots. There are tons more important issues that feminists need to deal with, and educating people on why some feminists find it problematic for men to call themselves feminists can be wearying.

Be aware that just because you call yourself a feminist, doesn't mean others will believe you are one. You can call yourself the Queen of England, too, for that matter.

As has been said over and over again, what is far more important is what guys DO, not what they call themselves. And given the record of some notorious male "feminists," it's a label that as Niall so aptly points out, you may want to avoid altogether.

Because for many feminists, a man claiming the label just raises hackles of we've-been-burned-before dismay, and surely that's the opposite of what you want to do?

Sat, 2013-08-17 21:28

#56

Tehanu

By the way, on the Stop Street Harassment site I linked to above, there's a really great video: "Shit men say to men who say shit to women on the streets"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P4eVjwVd_U&feature=player_embedded

Lots of good tips!

Sat, 2013-08-17 22:14

#57

Left Turn

Thanks for the wonderful resources, Tehanu. It's a pleasure to read them.

Quote:
Left Turn, I get that you're sincere about this! Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to think about the many ways you could have taken action in the situation (rather than having me give you examples and scripts), and to plan how you can handle similar situations in the future. If you'd like to discuss this more I'm happy to engage, although I have to say that this thread is giving me one hell of a feminist headache.

Tehanu, I sincerely apologize for mentioning this incident when I had not done anything about it. In the future if I bring up a sexist incident that I witnessed, I'll make sure that I actually did someting to address the issue.

That said, I honestly don't think it would have been a good idea to bring it up with this man. He was a large, burly man, and I'm a small man (5'4"). On top of which he was a total stranger. I was afraid he might have physically threatened me had I confronted him about it.

What I could have done was mentioned to the waitress that I overheard it, and that it bothered me.

Sat, 2013-08-17 23:31

#58

Catchfire

Tehanu is stretching the limitations of babble's Hall of Fame in this thread. Do we have a "Feminist warrior Elysian Fields" or something where we can hang her battle standard until the wind wears down the rock of Olympus and the sand falls into the sea?

Tehanu, I say this all the time, but thanks for taking the time to write. Your post at #44 is a revelation. I will use it forever to teach other dumbass men like myself the difference between acting like a feminist and acting like a feminist.

And Dalyght! Hi! Welcome to babble and it's nice to know there are some good guys out there! My daughter is two months old. Her name means "fierce in battle" and she has red hair and is in the 100th percentile for height. I figure she has no choice but to be feminist. And pity the poor soul who asks her what it means...

Sun, 2013-08-18 00:32

#59

ygtbk

Tehanu wrote:

Personally, I think if you're a guy who wants to call yourself a feminist, fill your boots. There are tons more important issues that feminists need to deal with, and educating people on why some feminists find it problematic for men to call themselves feminists can be wearying.

Be aware that just because you call yourself a feminist, doesn't mean others will believe you are one. You can call yourself the Queen of England, too, for that matter.

As has been said over and over again, what is far more important is what guys DO, not what they call themselves. And given the record of some notorious male "feminists," it's a label that as Niall so aptly points out, you may want to avoid altogether.

Because for many feminists, a man claiming the label just raises hackles of we've-been-burned-before dismay, and surely that's the opposite of what you want to do?

I in fact agree with many of the things that you say - such as actions speaking louder than words. If some feminists are not comfortable with men calling themselves feminists, then it doesn't make sense to use that label with those feminists. And I agree that calling yourself a feminist doesn't necessarily make you one.

Sun, 2013-08-18 07:12

#60

MegB

To paraphrase Ms. Rebecca West (the actual person):

I myself do not know what a feminist is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express feelings that differentiate me from a doormat.

Ms. West's point is, of course, that the term 'feminist' is a politicized label that is exploited for a variety of purposes that have less to do with the descriptive and more to do with self-serving motives. This is especially poignant, given that West devoted so much of her personal life to H.G. Wells, self-proclaimed vanguard of free love, suffrage and women's emancipation who was, in fact, a womanizing misogynist.

@ StephenStewart: you've done quite a good job of illustrating the points Meghan Murphy makes, though not in the way you imagine.

Tue, 2013-08-27 21:01

#61

CanadaOrangeCat

I think the treatment of Julia Gillard by the Australians was scandalous. I am pretty sure this would have not happened in Canada. I also think if a woman called me 'darling' first it might be OK to call her 'hon', 'luv', or 'sweetheart' (depending on where I was), however I think 'dear' is really condescending and I would never use it. Many years ago Gramps said that discriminating against women was 'wasting half the brains', and that the only difference between the sexes was 'in the plumbing'.

Equality before the law is a non-negotiable item with me.

Does that make me a feminist? I can never know what it is like to be a woman. So, no.

Tue, 2013-09-10 11:55

#62

KeyStone

What if the men self-identify as women before identifying as feminists? Would that be alright?
But then, I guess they would be women, so it's redundant.

What about men in the process of becoming women, or transgenered individuals, that don't identify with one gender or the other.
Would they be permitted to identify themselves as feminists?

Perhaps they need to be a certain percentage of female, before they are allowed to be feminists?

Tue, 2013-09-10 21:29

#63

Tehanu

KeyStone wrote:

What if the men self-identify as women before identifying as feminists? Would that be alright?
But then, I guess they would be women, so it's redundant.

What about men in the process of becoming women, or transgenered individuals, that don't identify with one gender or the other.
Would they be permitted to identify themselves as feminists?

Perhaps they need to be a certain percentage of female, before they are allowed to be feminists?

Wow.

Wed, 2013-09-11 00:39

#64

Catchfire

Keystone, I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what, but any way you spin it, your last comment in this thread is disrespectful, glib and betrays a considerable lack of familiarity (and good faith) with the subject under discussion. Please don't post in this thread again.

Wed, 2013-09-11 13:51

#65

Catchfire

The trouble with male allies

I, of course, see this often as men try to comment here on this site by authoritatively stating “AS A FEMINIST______,” demanding that we lend him more credibility in these discussions because he self-identifies as an ally. These men tend to be become quickly irate when you tell them that their opinion on feminism or what is wrong with feminist ideology isn’t of much concern. This behaviour, quite quickly, outs them as not an ally at all, despite their frustrated insistence.

This past week I’ve had some decidedly off-putting encounters with self-described “allies,” due specifically to discussions around Hugo Schwyzer. Some men joined in on efforts to harass and bully feminists online who they felt hadn’t responded correctly to the Schwyzer issue/incidents, criticizing them for having been duped by a manipulative sociopath. While certainly people, feminists too, should be held to account for their actions and many have admitted and apologized for their failure to condemn Schwyzer sooner, it is not men’s place to demand accountability from feminists. It is their place to demand accountability from other men.

A particularly frustrating example of this came from an interaction with a man who has been covering the various abuses and decidedly unfeminist behaviours of Schwzyerover the past year or so. I’m not angry he’s covering this, at all -- in fact, as a man, what he is doing is trying to hold another man accountable for his actions. If he left it at that, it would be perfectly fine.

The problem, for me, comes when those efforts lean too closely towards righteousness and become authoritative or directive. I appreciate men doing the work of holding other men to account -- I do not appreciate men telling feminists how they are failing at doing feminism.

Wed, 2013-09-11 15:17

#66

6079_Smith_W

Good piece. I think a title like "The trouble with dumbasses" might have been a bit more to the point, but its not like we have much to complain about (though you certainly wouldn't know it).

Wed, 2013-09-11 21:21

#67

quizzical

Catchfire wrote:
The trouble with male allies demanding that we lend him more credibility in these discussions because he self-identifies as an ally. These men tend to be become quickly irate when you tell them that their opinion on feminism or what is wrong with feminist ideology isn’t of much concern. This behaviour, quite quickly, outs them as not an ally at all....

example here #221 and this whole thread. i'm a woman and i don't identify as a feminist. i would be 4th generation if i did. maybe later in life i will but right now i know i'm not always an ally. let alone a feminist.

Quote:
I appreciate men doing the work of holding other men to account -- I do not appreciate men telling feminists how they are failing at doing feminism.

i don't like men tell me i'm failing at being a woman. like they would know!!!! i can't imagine what a feminist feels being told she isn't a good one by a man.

Wed, 2013-09-11 21:26

#68

Aristotleded24

I remember at my former job, one of my then-colleagues confided that she was bothered by attention she had been receiving from one of the other guys. A while later, I actually saw him do things that bothered her. She was openly complaining to him with little effect, so I asked him what he was doing. I also wrote down exactly what I saw happen and when, and told her that she could use me as a witness if she wanted.

Wed, 2013-09-11 23:31

#69

Maysie

quizzical wrote:
i can't imagine what a feminist feels being told she isn't a good one by a man.

That would be when I take out my can of whup-ass. And also when I play my "What the Fucking Hell Fuck" card.

Thu, 2013-09-12 18:21

#70

Summer

I'm enjoying reading this thread.

I think there is more than one question being discussed here. I'd like to focus on:

1. Can men be feminists?

2. Should men call themselves feminists?

3. What about men who clearly aren't feminists but who seem to think that they are feminists?

For me, underscoring all of this are the questions "what is a feminist?" and "do labels matter?" I gave my simple answer to the first question in post #5. Rebecca and some others have talked about the politicized nature of the word "feminist".

I continue to be of the view that men can and should identify as feminists. The fact that some people don't walk the walk means the rest of us can call them out on it.

Why do I think men should call themselves feminists? Because I think that labels do matter. A lot. Feminism is a movement that is supported by feminists. The word feminist has become a negative word that evokes images of bitter women with an axe to grind. It's become such a dirty word that many young women who meet my definition of a feminist, will start a sentence with "I'm not a feminist but [pro-feminist thing]". This attitude is a problem because many people who have a negative view of feminists will also form a negative view of the goals asssociated with feminism.

The more people that self-identify as feminists, the less stigma there will be associated with the word.

I don't think there is anything radical about wanting to live in a society where all genders have the same rights. If fact, I think people who refuse to identify as feminists should be in the minority. If we can get to a point where no one feels the need to say "I'm not a feminist but", I think we will have made enormous progress.

People who say "I'm a feminist so you can't criticise my view of [super sexist thing]. Stop hurting my feelings" need to be told in no uncertain terms "[Super sexist thing] is completely inconsistent with a feminist worldview and here's why..." The fact that these people exist does not and should not preclude others from calling themselves feminists.

Some examples of the posts I was talking about

Rebecca West wrote:
Perhaps "pro-feminist" is a more accurate term. Not to take away from men who consider themselves feminists, but a sensitive approach might be warranted where women who consider themselves feminist might reject men's assertions that they have somehow become feminists in a world where "male feminist" is anathema.

Catchfire wrote:

I think Meghan's point, as I read it, wasn't that men can't be feminists, but that actions speak louder than words. Don't call yourself a feminist, be one.

Summer wrote:

I think the answer to the question in the OP depends on the answer to this question: "What is a feminist?"

I think a feminist is a person who believes in equal political, economic, and social rights for men and women. So my answer to the OP is "of course".

See also: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/08/08/why_am_i_a_male_feminist_because_i_m_selfish.html

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I think it is just fine if women call me a feminist. I personally would never refer to myself as such. Label jars not people is still one of my favourite sayings [SNIP]

I think it is important to know when you are an ally and when you are fighting your own battles with the help of allies. For me the point of all activism is a society where justice and respect for all becomes a reality. Supporting progressive change is the key to moving society forward not self aggrandizement.

Rebecca West wrote:

[SNIP] the term 'feminist' is a politicized label that is exploited for a variety of purposes that have less to do with the descriptive and more to do with self-serving motives.

Catchfire wrote:

The trouble with male allies

I, of course, see this often as men try to comment here on this site by authoritatively stating “AS A FEMINIST______,” demanding that we lend him more credibility in these discussions because he self-identifies as an ally. These men tend to be become quickly irate when you tell them that their opinion on feminism or what is wrong with feminist ideology isn’t of much concern. This behaviour, quite quickly, outs them as not an ally at all, despite their frustrated insistence.

Sun, 2013-09-22 23:05

#71

arborman

Well, Im a feminist. I try to live it. Certainly my partner expects it from me in terms of actions and choices. I admit that sometimes I fail to speak up when I should - partially because I am socially awkward, partially because women (feminist or not) don't really need well intentioned goofballs 'white knighting' for them all the time either.

I may be trying to rationalize calling myself a feminist, and certainly it is within the rights of others to say I'm not really such. But politically speaking I see it as a no brainer, and much more simply and easily supportable by a rational human than all of my other (leftish) views. While there is (I suppose) plenty of room for debate on the merits of socialism or the case to take action on climate change, there is literally no rational reason not to support feminists and feminism.

Is it ok for men to call themselves feminists?

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