Ukraine - closed

Unionist wrote:

And in the case of the G20, I like others condemned the police repression. I also condemned the provocateurs who torched cars and smashed windows in an obvious attempt to: (a) serve the interests of the state; or (b) give vent to some peculiar ideology far removed from the wishes of the vast majority of Canadians; or (c) finish growing up.

By 'growing up' I take it that you mean finding some niche within the political establishment and running with it?  BTW, into which category, a, b, or c, would you assign the police car torching protesters from NB last year?

6079_Smith_W wrote:

That was the only sentence in that entire article that had anything to do with Ukraine, NDPP.

 

Better read it again, you seem to have missed a few things...

Unionist wrote:

The Yanukovych government was democratically elected in 2010. If some Ukrainians can't wait till 2015 - and if they want to use Molotov cocktails and other means to lobby (or replace) the government - then surely that's their right. We have no right to interfere. 

That seems pretty clear to me, and isn't inconsistent with Canadians supporting protests in Canada.

Unionist wrote:

The more I read about the protests in Ukraine, the less sympathy I have for their "cause". The fact that unregenerate nazis, fascists, Banderists, and anti-Semites are part of that movement has, I'll admit, prejudiced me against them. I certainly hope they stay safe and don't suffer the same bloody end as my family did - you know, the victims of their forebears. That would be so sad. Losing an ear. Tragic.

That is interesting to me, because it is different than my take.  The more I read about the protests in Ukraine, the greater sense I get that it is not about the Russian faction vs the EU faction, but that it is a people's movement against a repressive government.

Maybe this is influenced by talking with some of my friends who grew up there who recently visited.  They grew up in Ukraine but they speak Russian and identify as Russian.  They went last summer and it sound spretty dire over there (they are barely able to talk about it at all).

I agree that Canada should not be interfering.

Ukraine and the Pro-Imperialist  Intellectuals  -  by Alex Lantier

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/05/pers-f05.html

"...It is Ukraine - with its energy pipeline network, strategic military bases and heavy industry - that is emerging as a major prize in an aggressive thrust by US and European imperialism to plunder the region and target Russia.

While US and European imperialism threaten to attack Moscow's main Middle East allies Syria and Iran, they are threatening Russia's main Eastern European ally, Ukraine, with regime change."

Russian Offical Accuses US of Fueling Ukraine Crisis (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/02/06/349524/us-accused-of-funding-uk...

"According to our information, American sources spend $20 million a week on financing the opposition and rebels, including weapons. We have information that the militants are briefed on the territory of the US Embassy..."

Global Gas Grab - Solidarity Ukraine Style

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/06/solidarity-ukraine-style/

"Ukraine is not only the latest battlefield in the North Atlantic's attempts to stem the rising tide of BRICS economic influence. It is also the site of a contentious civil society resisting government repression..."

So two Americans want to influence what is going on there, and they seem to want to talk to Fatherland, UDAR, and even Yanukovich. Sounds like a good diplomatic strategy of not keeping all the eggs in one basket.

How is that surprising, or how does it justify the "puppets" comment? Sounds like they are trying to persuade, not give marching orders.

One thing of note is that they said nothing about talking to Svoboda, or any of the right-wing street gangs that the U.S. is supposedly controlling.In fact, they specifically talked about trying to push them to the sidelines.

And I'm also not sure where this leaves the conspiracy theory about the U.S. being part of the plot to drive Ukraine into the clutches of the EU.

Of course it's embarrassing; no diplomat wants to have in camera conversations leaked. But a smoking gun?  I think the most embarrassing thing is the word "fuck". Yanukovich has already invited Yatsenyuk to be prime minister (and he has refused) so them talking about wanting the European favourite - Klitschko - sidelined is hardly conspiracy to overthrow.

On the other hand:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/u-s-diplomats-conversation-on-ukraine-poste...

Quote:

Separately on Thursday, a senior Kremlin aide accused the United States of arming Ukrainian "rebels" and warned Russia could intervene to maintain the security of its neighbour.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/06/us-ukraine-russia-glazyev-idUS...

for serious information, Canadian Bohdan Nahajlo worth following on Facebook

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ LIKE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What About Apologizing To Ukraine, Mrs Nuland?

http://www.eurasiareview.com/08022014-apologizing-ukraine-mrs-nuland-oped/

"In short, it turned out that US officials were coordinating their actions on how to install a puppet government in Ukraine..."

Ukraine, Another Operation Regime Change

http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/ukraine-another-operation-regime-change/

"Quite often, history does not provide good choices. The issue is not whether President Yanukovich is a nice guy. The question is about the constellation of forces seeking to overthrow him.

Clearly we have a regime change operation in progress in Ukraine. It is backed by the West and is in alliance with the extreme right.

It is also part of a larger agenda to contain Russia. The slogan may be democracy, as it was in Syria, Libya and Iraq. The reality is expanding the Empire.

Which makes all independent powers - from Iran to Russia -

enemies."

Fake Images in Ukraine

http://www.voltairenet.org/article182057.html

"The images of a naked Ukrainian prisoner in the snow, surrounded by police forces taunting him, has been spread around the world. They show the brutality of the regime that the glorious activists of Maidan Square are trying to overcome.

There is only one problem..."

Maidan Activists Trained by NATO in 2006

http://www.voltairenet.org/article182058.html

"A group of young Maidan Square protesters, members of the Nazi organization Ukrainian People's Self-Defense (UNA-UNSO), were trained in NATO terrorist camps in Estonia in 2006. The training included manufacturing and handling of explosives as well as shooting.

These young people went to fight alongside Georgian forces during their aggression against South Ossetia."

Are there any actual sources for those voltairenet pieces? They're getting plenty of circulation, all link back to the voltairenet piece, and there are no corroborating sources other than the original vremia piece, which also has no sources.

Is there anything identifying that police officer as who they say it is or is it just someone who bears a resemblance? And if it was him, why would he let himself be filmed like that?

In fact, the only reference to "Andrei Dubrovik" in google is that voltairenet piece.

As for that second piece, who are those people, what relation at all do they have to Ukraine, and what is the source?

I have seen voltairenet pieces posted before. None has piqued my interest enough to actually check out what they were all about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire_Network

Besides Kharkov News Agency has a different story for explaining the incident: apparently they weren't torturing him; they were stopping him from setting himself on fire. That's more believable, isn't it?

http://nahnews.com.ua/the-officers-of-berkut-were-not-torturing-the-deta...

Journalistic Malpractice & the Danger of Russia-Bashing

http://rt.com/op-edge/western-media-russia-bashing-293/

"While the media spotlight is on Sochi, other places and events in the world demand our attention. Ukraine is in political deadlock and is teetering on the brink of becoming a failed state. Western audiences are told it is all 'Putin's fault'. The fact is we have irrefutable evidence ('Nulandgate') Washington is stoking the flames of division in Ukraine. Before the violence in Kiev, Russia called for trilateral consultations involving Ukraine, the EU and Russia.

Needless to say, mainstream media is reluctant to inform its audiences of this. Instead, the narrative invented and spread by the Western mainstream is how the West wants to save Ukraine from its 'evil neighbor'. This is a recipe for disaster - and possibly (though completely unnecessary) conflict involving the West and Russia..."

Ukraine President Agrees to Coalition Govt (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/02/13/350478/ukraine-president-agrees...

"Ukraine President Vicktor Yanukovych has agreed to appoint a coalition government with participation of opposition leaders..."

Talks Between Ukrainian Govt, Opposition Fail as 25 Killed in Kiev Unrest (and vid)

Live UPDATES, Live Feed from Central Kiev

http://rt.com/news/kiev-police-rioters-chaos-616/

"At least 25 people have been killed in Kiev as the Ukrainian capital plunges back into chaos..."

The Geopolitics of Ukraine's Schism  -  by Immanuel Wallerstein

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/02/15-3

"Let me therefore propose that Ukraine is merely a convenient excuse or proxy for a larger geopolitical division that has nothing whatsoever to do with its internal schism..."

Ukraine: US's Revenge on Russia For Halting War Against Syria

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/ukraine-u-s-s-revenge-on-russ...

"US attmpts to influence situation in Ukraine are desire to take revenge for defeat in Syria - Pushkov

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-18/ukraine-fighting-leaves-at-leas...

After starving seven Million Ukrainians to death, I think it would be in good taste for Russia to shut the fuck up about this topic.

Ukraine Truce Fails Rioters Renew Offensive in Kiev, Death Toll Rises to 35 [Now 64 - Health Ministry] LIVE UPDATES (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-maidan-rioters-offensive-880/

"The protesters are openly using fire-arms against the Berkut [special Forces] wrote the Interior Ministry in a statement..."

Radical Protesters in Ukraine Neo Nazis: Analyst (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/02/20/351520/ukraine-radical-proteste...

"Extremist nationalist groups are sparing no efforts to seize power in Ukraine. They hope to come to power on the back of these extremists and one more terrible thing is the fact that the EU [AND CANADA!] supports these nationalists,' said the analyst."

Democracy Now: A New Cold War? Ukraine Violence Escalates (and vid)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37701.htm

* "....What comes as a double surprise is the latest news that ambassadors of several EU-member states, the US and Canada have paid another visit to Maidan to meet Pravy Sektor activists and...'the headquarters of national resistance'...RT News #62

http://boingboing.net/2014/02/19/ukraine-security-forces-torch.html 

Cannonfire: Ukraine

http://cannonfire.blogspot.ca/2014/02/ukraine.html

"God damn but the propagandists are hitting us hard. We haven't seen a blitzkrieg like this since 2003 and the run-up to the Iraq misadventure. (Although we did see something similar when Assad was accused, probably falsely of using CBWs against the rebels in Syria)

Both The New Republic and George Will are beating the same war drum. You know mayhem is at hand when mainstream 'liberals' and establishment conservatives get with the rhythm..."

EU Ministers Face 'Night of Difficult Negotiations' With Ukrainian Leaders, Oposition (and vid)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/eu-ministers-face-night-of-difficult-negoti...

"This is brother fighting brother', said Iryna, a local woman walking to Independence Square to donate syringes for blood transfusions. 'We need to realize we're all one people.

Kviv residents emptied bank machines of cash and stockpiled groceries, with many staying off the streets. 'Would you go out if there were snipers on the roofs of your city? This is essentially war,' Iryna said."

The contradictions of the Euromaidan uprising

Editor’s Note: Now that the mass protests against the pro-Russian government of Viktor Yanukovych have escalated into open revolt in the Europe-oriented West of the country, and now that Kiev is witnessing scenes of outright civil war — with many dozens left dead after another bloody day of gun-fighting between government forces and opposition militia — a proper understanding of the nature of the Euromaidan revolt seems more important than ever.

In this extensive interview, revolutionary syndicalist Denis — who is a member of the Autonomous Workers’ Union in Kiev — provides some invaluable insights into the class composition of the protests, the role of nationalist, far-right and neo-Nazi groups in the mobilizations, the political economic background against which they are taking place, and the way in which the left should insert itself into this profound political crisis while avoiding support for either the murderous government or the far-right and neo-Nazi opposition.

quote:

Denis: Yes, your account is more or less correct. But you should understand that from the very beginning people had a very peculiar understanding of “Europe”. They pictured a very utopian ideal – society without corruption, with high wages, social security, rule of law, honest politicians, smiling faces, clean streets, etc. – and called it “EU”. And when one tried to tell them that actual EU has nothing to do with this pretty picture, that people there actually burn EU flags and protest against austerity etc. – they retorted: “So would you better live in Russia then?” So, yes, from the very beginning the protest was driven by the false consciousness of “civilizational choice”, by nationalist ideological patterns which didn’t leave any room for the class agenda. These are the results of the bourgeois cultural hegemony, in Gramscian terms, and this is the main problem we should fight in this country over next years (or even decades).

But “Europe” was never actually the main aim of the protesters. Anti-government and anti-Russian sentiments were much stronger, so they naturally overtook the pro-EU rhetoric after the police crackdown of December 1, and now most people hardly even remember what the initial cause of the demonstrations was. Many people agree that the very term Euromaidan is already anachronistic. The far right groups, which initially had to hide their traditional attitude to the “liberal decaying EU” in order to infiltrate the protests, now openly state that they don’t care about the EU and only want a regime change. This sentiment is accepted in the wide circles of the protesters....

http://roarmag.org/2014/02/euromaidan-protests-ukraine-contradictions/

Presidential Impeachment Bill Introduced in Ukrainian Parliament (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/president-impeachment-bill-parliament-174/

"...Even though the deal was signed thousands are still protesting in central Kiev. Rioters are now in full control of Kiev's government district. They have taken over parliament, the president's administration quarters, the cabinet, and the Interior Ministry, protesters told tyzhden.ua."

'US Blaming Ukrainian Authorities For Violence is Catastrophic Move' (and vid)

http://rt.com/op-edge/us-blaming-ukraine-violence-catastrophic-012/

"...It's a catastrophic move, it's a revolutionary move. There are far greater dangerous implications to this than anybody in Washington or Western Europe seems to realize. It is placing the European Union and the United States on the side of revolutionary chaos and disorder not just in other countries around the world, which would be bad enough, but in the heartland of Europe.

This is very dangerous..."

The so-called "issue" at hand might be which empire is going to loan Ukraine debt money?

• Russia?   They already got billions of debt money from Russia.
• The European Union? Future IMF loans to Ukraine: see Greece, Italy, Spain. 

But maybe Ukraine is being used in a proxy war, or to distract from a proxy war, between the United States and Russia.

Ukraine: The Brown (Shirt) Revolution - Prof Francis Boyle

http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_02_22/Ukraine-The-Brown-Shirt-Revolution-P...

"It is a fact that since 9-11-2001, the US Government has been in the business of destroying countries and using NATO as its principle instrument. That was stated more than a decade ago by the US Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and later by General Wesley Clark.

The Pentagon drew up a list of 7 states that were to be destroyed: Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Syria and they have systematically proceeded to destroy off of the countries on the list.

The strategy in Ukraine is the same, US/NATO/EU are promoting the destabilization and the breakup of Ukraine in order to achieve the NATO goal of moving into Ukrainian territory closer to Russia..."

Kiev Rabbi tells Jews to flee the city:

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.575732?v=3C03EC96AC83BCA49B4D0C35AFEC41A3