Conservatives, NDP, Liberals unanimously tell Ukraine what to do

@Stockholm

That's rich coming from a benificiary of invasions, occupations and genocides foreign and domestic in one of the white imperial fatlands...It never was 'just an internal Ukrainian matter'. Did you miss the Americans' phone call? Had the agreement made not been criminally breached by the West's proxy wackos power play in Lviv, this wouldn't be happening now. As it is there's arguably more Ukrainians that would approve of Russian occupation than that of Pravy Sektor and the NATO putschists in Lviv. Hence hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians pouring out into Russia and the Crimea.  Please remember this was a coup not an election and much becomes clear. At least the NDP, which likes to both run with the rabbits and hunt with the hounds simultaenously in such matters has been outed and forced to 'pick a side' for a change..

Bacchus wrote:

Ahh so protests by the people is a coup and should be crushed. Got it.  Was this what everyone was saying when the former regime was shooting protesters?

 

As yet there is no conclusive evidence as to who fired first. A number of varying reports are circulating. As to the legal issues around the coup, see Prof Francis Boyle's analysis, posted in the Ukraine thread. Meanwhile here is some MSM which includes video of NDP Leader Tom Mulcair and his pro Kyiv, anti-Russia position channeling Harper's own. All the empire's dogs bark the same on this one..

http://globalnews.ca/news/1181817/ukraine-leader-urges-russias-putin-to-...

You're just upset that the NDP and Ukrainian Nazi's are being mentioned in the same sentence.  But can we have a little perspective here?  It's Larry, Fuzz Face, and Moe who are the dogmatic reactionaries, and then there are people who comment on that.

I don't know why anyone is worried about a western invasion. Seems to me all they have to do is make another phone call. That's obviously far more powerful and provocative than Russian fighter jets and tanks.

And this:

NDPP wrote:

That's rich coming from a benificiary of invasions, occupations and genocides foreign and domestic in one of the white imperial fatlands..

Gotta love it: tearing your hair out over Nazis because they shut down anyone who doesn't think like them and isolate people based on who they are and where they come from

(not to mention throwing the "Nazi" appellation around indiscriminately)

Then turning around and using those same personal attacks to label and isolate others when they speak.

Without a doubt, the 'new' Ukraine government is right-wing and only too happy to reap the bounty of closer ties to the uber-capitalist EU, but it'll doubtless be simply a heavy-handed authoritarian government of a different favour than the previous one. The West will continue to use "strong words" to condemn Russia, and Russia will continue to protect its military assets and hegemony, and nothing much will change.

NDPP wrote:

I just posted the latest CBC report to the Ukraine thread. In contravention of international law, Canada is with the illegally installed Nazi regime with the usual imperialist collaborators, faux 'progressives' and NDP in support...

Is there a babble policy against trivializing Hitler and the Holocaust by using the word "Nazi" describe any regime or political party you don't approve of? If not maybe there should be!

Slumberjack wrote:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/summary.do?id=1239823&t=e&l=en

Quote:

Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada. It recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.

Hmm..."racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views" - that sounds like a perfect description of Putin and the government of Russia as well - choose your poison!

Stockholm wrote:

Is there a babble policy against trivializing Hitler and the Holocaust by using the word "Nazi" describe any regime or political party you don't approve of? If not maybe there should be!

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/summary.do?id=1239823&t=e&l=en

Quote:

Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada. It recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.

The Dark Side of the Ukraine Revolt

Quote:

Svoboda –which currently has 36 deputies in the 450-member Ukrainian parliament—began life in the mid-1990s as the Social National Party of the Ukraine, but its roots lie in World War II, when Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis found common ground in the ideology of anti-communism and anti-Semitism. In April, 1943, Dr. Otto von Wachter, the Nazi commander of Galicia—the name for the western Ukraine—turned the First Division of the Ukrainian National Army into the 14 Grenadier Division of the Waffen SS, the so-called “Galicia Division.”

Svoboda has always had a soft spot for the Galicia Division and one of its parliament members, Oleg Pankevich, took part in a ceremony last April honoring the unit. Pankevich joined with a priest of Ukrainian Orthodox Church near Lviv to celebrate the unit’s 70th anniversary and re-bury some of the Division’s dead.

“I was horrified to see photographs…of young Ukrainians wearing the dreaded SS uniform with swastikas clearly visible on their helmets as they carried caskets of members of this Nazi unit, lowered them into the ground, and fired gun salutes in their honor,” World Jewish Congress President Ronald Lauder wrote in a letter to the Patriarch of the Ukrainian church.

Fascist-lite then?  Normally a whiff of Nazism usually does it in terms of something or another not being anyone's particular cup of tea, but I'll grant you these are strange times indeed.

Brachina wrote:

 Russia has no right to annex Crimea, if Crimea wants to seperate, they can have a peaceful referubdum like Quebec

I'd say it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Crimea is almost certainly going back to Russia. It's majority is culturally Russian.

And @ Slumberjack.

You're right about "a whiff of Nazism" being enough to do it. Why do you think the term is used as a foil so much? Because it generally shuts down any rational analysis.

Ukraine Presents Conservatives With Unprecedented Foreign Policy Challenge

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ukraine-presents-conservati...

"When Mr Harper emerged, he issued a statement saying he was recalling the Canadian ambassador in Moscow and had suspended Canada's preparations for the coming G8 summit planned in Sochi, the Russian city that just played host to the Olympic Games.

Around that same time, he spoke with NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair, who told The Globe that Mr Harper said Mr Putin had 'crossed the Rubicon' - a military reference often used to suggest someone passed the point of no return.

Mr Mulcair described his conversation with Mr Harper as 'open' and 'detailed', and said he felt Mr Harper's use of the military reference was spot on."

Well, labels are not exactly pointless if they fit, and it's precisely the actions of groups and individuals that are being situated for what they represent.  This shit is not being made up in other words.  It seems to me that there are certain objections being raised in this respect that bear the all too familiar stench of partisan politics, which comes as no surprise since the NDP have teamed up with other Fascist sympathizer outfits in Ottawa to support the armed takeover of the government of Ukraine, which is being orchestrated with the heavy involvement of elements who appear to especially covet an unapologetic historical and contemporary association with the ideology of Ukraine's WWII occupiers.  Obviously it is quite unfortunate to see it all tied together like this, but this is hardly the most unfortunate thing going on.

Rebecca West wrote:

 

At the very least, it's ridiculous to assume, at this early stage, that the 'new' Ukraine government is some monolith of anti-Semitic fascists when the most likely truth is that they represent a wide spectrum of right-wing ideologies.

I'm not sure that they only represent right-wing ideologies. I'm sure there are moderate small "l"l liberal social democrats who are from the very Ukrainian western part of the country who would like to be part of the EU so they can make common cause with all those nice social democractic parties in the European Parliament. If I lived in Kiev - I think i would tend to say to myself - Let's make Ukraine more like Germany and Sweden and less like Chechnya!

SJ,

I'm talking about what is happening and who is doing what in Ukraine now, not 70 years ago.

Natalia Vitrenko Gives Webcast in Paris Exposes EU Support for Neo-Nazi Coup in Ukraine

http://larouchepac.com/node/29971

If anyone is a neo-Nazi fascist it's Vladimir Putin. The man makes me sick. He is to gay people like what Hitler was to Jews.

NDPP wrote:

 I stand by my assertion that the regime in Kyiv is essentially  neofascist or 'Nazi'.

So what's your evidence? What do you base that on other than people telling you it's a Nazi coup (and the accusation is "Nazi" and "anti-semitic", not just fascist - though I'd like to hear evidence of that too)?

I think it's kind of curious, considering that the new prime minister is himself part Jewish, as are some of the oligarchs the govenrment has called in to help stabilize the country (read: not piss off the eastern region)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexa...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a99fc964-a189-11e3-a29e-00144feab7de.html#axzz...

What I see is a government made up different, and in some cases conflicted groups which have had to come together.

For that matter, what do you know about Svoboda, their power base and rise to power (which Yanukovich was partly responsible for, and has given him an easy scapegoat)?

Guilty as charged. Putin is a bigoted, authoritarian pig but he is not as bad as Adolf Hitler

On the other hand Putin seems to be spearheading an attempt to rehabilitate Stalin's image in Russia and is trying to cast him as some sort of hero...why not? he only single handedly starved something like 8 million Ukrainians to death in the Holodomor. What's not to like!

There is a word that describes both Russia's invasion of Crimea and Germany's invasion of Sudentenland...its called irredentism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism

Irredentism (from Italian irredento, "unredeemed") is any position of a state advocating annexation of territories administered by another state on the grounds of common ethnicity or prior historical possession, actual or alleged. It is often advocated by pan-nationalist movements and has been a repeated feature of identity politics, cultural and political geography. Because most borders have been moved and redrawn over time, a great many countries could theoretically present irredentist claims to their neighbors. Germany's Anschluss of Austria and annexation of the German-speaking Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia in 1938, and a return of territory from Czechoslovakia to Hungary as a result of the First Vienna Award, are perhaps the best known historical examples of this idea in practice.

Some nation states have been the subject of potential irredentism from their inception. The states of post-World War I Central Europe, created from the Austro-Hungarian Empire; Southeast Europe, and the Near East had borders carved out by the Allies that left many of the new states in those regions unsatisfied. There were minority populations and conflicting historical claims to territory in each case. Similarly, many territories and nations in Africa had borders determined by power struggles among the European colonial powers, rather than reflecting historical ethnic and language groupings. The result split ethnic groups between different countries, such as the Yoruba who are divided between Nigeria and Benin. In some cases, the irredentist arguments have continued past the Second World War and on to the present day.

josh wrote:

Well he did defeat Hitler and liberated concentration camps. So, there's that.

When Stalin's Red Army "liberated" prisoner of war camps he ordered that all Russian prisoners be executed since he thought anyone taken prisoner by the Germans had to have been a treacherous coward...evil enough for you?

Stockholm wrote:

josh wrote:

Well he did defeat Hitler and liberated concentration camps. So, there's that.

When Stalin's Red Army "liberated" prisoner of war camps he ordered that all Russian prisoners be executed since he thought anyone taken prisoner by the Germans had to have been a treacherous coward...evil enough for you?

Stalin was certainly a paranoid murderer, but there's no need to exaggerate the killings attributed to him or to overlook his role in defeating the greater evil, Hitler.

NorthReport wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine and the degree to which the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Joseph Stalin.[10][20][21][22] Using Holodomor in reference to the famine emphasizes its man-made aspects, arguing that actions such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs, and restriction of population movement confer intent, defining the famine as genocide; the loss of life has been compared to the Holocaust.[23] If Soviet policies and actions were conclusively documented as intending to eradicate the rise of Ukrainian nationalism, they would fall under the legal definition of genocide.[24][25][26][27][28] In the absence of absolute documentary proof of intent, scholars have also made the argument that the Holodomor was ultimately a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of liquidation of private property and Soviet industrialization.

Stockholm wrote:

Just as there is "Holocaust denial" there is also "Holodomor denial"

Godwin.