U
Why am I not surprised that you spend a lot time complaining to the nods.
This reminds me of your position on Quebec politics.
Opinions that disagree with yours are run out of here one way or another.
Good luck with your principled democracy.
ONT NDP Leader Andrea Horwath will become Premier of Ontario 2
Sun, 2014-05-04 14:09
#702
Sun, 2014-05-04 14:46
#703
onlinediscountanvilsWhat are you trying to do here?
It's pretty simple. I'm trying to get him to stop lying about what I have and haven't said.
I thought this was a place to exchange ideas
Lying is not an exchange of ideas.
Your ideas can't be very sound if you can't accept challenges to your opinions.
My objections to Rokossovsky's comments about me have nothing to do with my opinions being challenged.
But you do raise an interesting point. I'll try to keep that in mind next time someone takes issue with comments that are critical of Horwath and the NDP.
[cross-posted with Unionist]
Ok.
Sun, 2014-05-04 15:00
#704
Is it surprising that I missed the one thing you got right on the entire laundry list of the "good things", when you have fallen for every other dodge they throw at you?LOL. Given that you've been baiting me for more than a week, no, it's not surprising at all.
I'll help you out. See the part where it says "Quote:"? It's not my list. It's Unifor's. Take it up with Jerry Dias.
You took "UNIFOR's list" and struck one thing off and gave the rest a pass.
You're pathetic. You either don't understand what a quote is, or you have no intention of representing my words honestly.
Smokey Thomas from OPSEU said of Jerry, that he “supported the budget without reading it.” Can that be said of you, given that you regurgitated the rest without bothering to cross it off?
No.
[edit: I'll wait for the mods to review this thread.]
Sun, 2014-05-04 15:49
#705
Who do you think you are kidding?
This has everything to do with your ideas being challenged.
But you don't have to worry as we have seen it all before.
Disagree with the rabble gods like U who whines to the mods when he is challenged, and eventually one way or another excellent posters are forced out.
Sun, 2014-05-04 16:25
#706
I'm kinda with this guy:
http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/05/02/ndp_leader_andrea_horw...
But if Ontarians follow their usual pattern, disaffected voters will coalesce around the default alternative which, in spite of the many gaffes committed by party leader Tim Hudak, remains the Progressive Conservatives.
And if Hudak becomes premier, a big swath of left-liberal voters will be furious with the NDP.
It's a truly staggering miscalculation by Horwath. Her cynical power-grab is more likely to produce either a Conservative minority or a Liberal majority, depending on just how repugnant Ontarians find Hudak.
Sun, 2014-05-04 16:40
#707
So I have a question for all those folks that profess to be so concerned about labour - why in the world would you be even dreaming about supporting the Liberals with stats like this?
And never mind the nonsense that it is all Harper's fault.
The Premier's job is to represent the interests of the people that live, and work, and don't work in Ontario, and to negotiate with Ottawa no mastter what, to ensure Ontario citizens are looked after, and have decent jobs.
http://www.stats.gov.nl.ca/statistics/Labour/PDF/UnempRate.pdf
-------------
18,170
Sun, 2014-05-04 16:46
#708
It's a truly staggering miscalculation by Horwath. Her cynical power-grab is more likely to produce either a Conservative minority or a Liberal majority, depending on just how repugnant Ontarians find Hudak.
I don't find it a cynical power-grab at all. If she had not allowed Wynne any time to do anything when Wynne first replaced McGuinty (and when Andrea was higher in polls than today) then I would agree. But, she worked with Wynne instead. However, seems a lot of the agreements that they came to did not get enacted upon by the Liberals, and various other examples of Liberal incompetance crept up (IE, Herb Gray Parkway in Windsor), so Andrea decided it's time for an election to let people decide if they want the same unreliable corrupt Libs, the regressive Cons, or the progressive NDP.
Sun, 2014-05-04 17:15
#709
"The Liberals now loudly claim to support Andrea's OPP idea. But look closely at the budget: there is no action at all on the OPP, except a vague promise to deliver the Horwath-style plan at some point in 2017. Meanwhile, the budget commits to delivering the Harper-style PRPP later this year.
The Liberals are saying all the right progressive things, but the fact is, when it comes to pensions, their budget puts insurance companies at the front of the line, while the rest of us will just have to keep hoping for something, eventually, maybe, in 2017."
I am not impressed with this budget item.
Sun, 2014-05-04 17:17
#710
What a coward!
Wynne is not even able to stand up to Harper.
It shows us how much she is really interested in looking after the citizens of Ontario.
The Liberal pension plan is one of her many gimmicks to get elected, and obviously not even worth the paper it is written on.
I can just imagine what is going to happen to all those 70 promises she has made if she wins, when the right-wing businesses tell her what they want.
Wynne cools talk of pension spat with Harper
http://www.londoncommunitynews.com/news-story/4500153-wynne-cools-talk-o...
Sun, 2014-05-04 17:26
#711
Pogo
I am left thinking that the Wynne was going to call an election regardless of whether the NDP chose to support the house of cards.
Sun, 2014-05-04 17:34
#712
I am left thinking that the Wynne was going to call an election regardless of whether the NDP chose to support the house of cards.
If Horwath supported the budget, Wynne was going to call an election? Really? So, Wynne thinks this is the best time for an election, and Horwath thinks this is the best time for an election... Is anyone worried? Hudak maybe?
Just looking for some analysis here.
Sun, 2014-05-04 17:36
#713
Pogo,
I could not agree more, as it was a way to stall the gas plant corruption scandal hearings which were probably about to hear damaging to the Liberals testimony.
It is all smoke and mirrors with the mainstream press covering their backs with a full court press.
Sun, 2014-05-04 17:40
#714
That is such a naive comment.
Liberals have zero intention of delivering on those promises as has alrerady been clearly pointed out. This was definitely an election budget as everyone knew the NDP was going to pull the plug.
Try reading the ontario newswatch website for a wee bit of information on the topic.
I am left thinking that the Wynne was going to call an election regardless of whether the NDP chose to support the house of cards.
If Horwath supported the budget, Wynne was going to call an election? Really? So, Wynne thinks this is the best time for an election, and Horwath thinks this is the best time for an election... Is anyone worried? Hudak maybe?
Just looking for some analysis here.
Sun, 2014-05-04 18:50
#715
Pogo
I am left thinking that the Wynne was going to call an election regardless of whether the NDP chose to support the house of cards.
If Horwath supported the budget, Wynne was going to call an election? Really? So, Wynne thinks this is the best time for an election, and Horwath thinks this is the best time for an election... Is anyone worried? Hudak maybe?
Just looking for some analysis here.
I was just going over the analysis of the budget where item after item is listed but no evidence of any preparation to actually impliment them. To me that has all the hallmarks of an election budget.
Sun, 2014-05-04 18:55
#716
Ok, I'm going to try once more:
If Horwath had supported the budget - your analysis (NR and Pogo) is that Wynne was going to call an election anyway?
Sun, 2014-05-04 19:46
#717
Ok, I'm going to try once more:
If Horwath had supported the budget - your analysis (NR and Pogo) is that Wynne was going to call an election anyway?
That is actually what happened, given the Wynne didn't even bother to "support" her own budget, and present it in the legislature, instead opting to call an election instead.
Sun, 2014-05-04 19:53
#718
I'm kinda with this guy:
http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/05/02/ndp_leader_andrea_horw...
But if Ontarians follow their usual pattern, disaffected voters will coalesce around the default alternative which, in spite of the many gaffes committed by party leader Tim Hudak, remains the Progressive Conservatives.
And if Hudak becomes premier, a big swath of left-liberal voters will be furious with the NDP.
It's a truly staggering miscalculation by Horwath. Her cynical power-grab is more likely to produce either a Conservative minority or a Liberal majority, depending on just how repugnant Ontarians find Hudak.
I am not really sure how the argument for "opportunism" plays out in the context of NDP polling that has them in third place. A more likely culprit for opportunism might be made if they were polling second like the Liberals.
Maybe a reason the Liberals opted to call an election without tabling a budget.
Horwath's stance against the budget, given that she is third in the polls, would suggest that her motives were more principled than opportunistic -- hard to fathom really for some people.
An election this year, with some positives for the NDP and Liberals, against an election next year, which might very well deliver a PC majority government. However that works out I don't understand the panic reaction.
This government had less than 14 months left in it anyway.
Sun, 2014-05-04 20:10
#719
Pogo
You do understand that it is impossible to prove a counterfactual. I can say that in my experience, when a government knows it is going to the polls before the budget is approved that they will stuff anything and everything into that budget, often with little supporting programs or plans. That sure looks like what is going on here.Ok, I'm going to try once more:
If Horwath had supported the budget - your analysis (NR and Pogo) is that Wynne was going to call an election anyway?
Sun, 2014-05-04 20:42
#720
Oops sorry added a comment to the wrong thread!
Sun, 2014-05-04 21:25
#721
Did you even bother listening to the press conference. I thought she was pretty clear. Another year propping up the corrupt and incompetent Liberals is not going to forestall a Hudak victory. Indeed the situation might even be worse, as Horwath pointed out in her letter on the subject:....
So why didn't she pass the budget and then support a vote of non-confidence based on the government's corruption later this spring or summer?
Indexing and increasing the minimum wage, raising social assistance rates, and the wages of many low income workers, even by not much, would help many poorer people. As it is the PC's may end up forming a government that will likely never support even minor increases for the poor. If the budget had passed and an election been called for this spring, summer, or fall, the Conservatives would likely not have had the guts to reduce the minimum wage back to its current levels and deindex it from inflation.
I think most social assistance recipients and low wage workers would be happier if an election had been instigated after the implementation of a budget with modest increases.
Sun, 2014-05-04 21:25
#722
onlinediscountanvilsWhat are you trying to do here?
It's pretty simple. I'm trying to get him to stop lying about what I have and haven't said.
I thought this was a place to exchange ideasLying is not an exchange of ideas.
Ok.
Lying about your ideas? No commenting on them. I quote you religiously. You on the other hand just throw out random accussations and hope that they will stick, without specifically quoting "a lie" or any "misquote", or an example of a "distortion".
Demonstrate the "lie", please using the "quote" function.
In this case I inferred from the fact that you took the trouble to cross off a single item from the UNIFOR list of "good things" in the budget that you gave the rest "a pass", and the word was "pass". I implied that you gave it a pass because you were asleep at the switch, just like UNIFOR.
It's a pretty reasonable assumption given that you went through the trouble of eliminating list items that you did not like.
[And then of course, this is all derived from my failure to my "homework," as you put. Somehow how it is incumbent upon me to track through all your past posts, in conversations I am not engaged, on threads I have never posted on in order discover your true opinions, and if I should fail to do so, be accused of "misrepresenting you".]
Sun, 2014-05-04 21:46
#723
Did you even bother listening to the press conference. I thought she was pretty clear. Another year propping up the corrupt and incompetent Liberals is not going to forestall a Hudak victory. Indeed the situation might even be worse, as Horwath pointed out in her letter on the subject:....
So why didn't she pass the budget and then support a vote of non-confidence based on the government's corruption later this spring or summer?
Maybe because the budget was never tabled?
And even before the Horwath press conference, Liberal campaign workers were out and about passing out flyer denouncing the NDP for failing to "vote" for increased support for low income families, even though there was no vote because Kathleen Wynne made a big show of committing political Hara Kari and calling an election, before the budget was ever tabled or debated, something that makes one think it was never intended to pass.
Why would Wynne avoid debating her own budget, if she thought so much of it, and in so doing force Horwath to argue it for the public benefit? What happened to the great conciliator, who is so keen on "listening"? Certainly, "listening" might include "listening" to the criticisms of duly elected representative MPPs?
Surely Wynne might have bought herself some time and waited a spell for "sober second thought" to kick in and try one last stab at finding a way through, if she was really committed to passing her budget, and not merely granstanding on issues to make herself sound progressive and saying that the NDP is the reason we can't have "nice things".
Sun, 2014-05-04 21:48
#724
Did you even bother listening to the press conference. I thought she was pretty clear. Another year propping up the corrupt and incompetent Liberals is not going to forestall a Hudak victory. Indeed the situation might even be worse, as Horwath pointed out in her letter on the subject:....
So why didn't she pass the budget and then support a vote of non-confidence based on the government's corruption later this spring or summer?
Maybe because the budget was never tabled?
And even before the Horwath press conference, Liberal campaign workers were out and about passing out flyer denouncing the NDP for failing to "vote" for increased support for low income families, even though there was no vote because Kathleen Wynne made a big show of committing political Hara Kari and calling an election, before the budget was ever tabled or debated, something that makes one think it was never intended to pass.
I'll note that even though they both knew they would be defeated on a vote of non-confidence, Paul Martin faced that vote in 2005 and Stephen Harper faced that vote in 2011. The tactically smart thing for Wynne would have been to call the budget vote, let it fall, campaign on it and say, "I wanted this budget to pass but the mean opposition leaders didn't, so vote Liberal."
Sun, 2014-05-04 21:54
#725
Maybe because the budget was never tabled?And even before the Horwath press conference, Liberal campaign workers were out and about passing out flyer denouncing the NDP for failing to "vote" for increased support for low income families, even though there was no vote because Kathleen Wynne made a big show of committing political Hara Kari and calling an election, before the budget was ever tabled or debated, something that makes one think it was never intended to pass.
Why would Wynne avoid debating her own budget, if she thought so much of it, and in so doing force Horwath to argue it for the public benefit? What happened to the great conciliator, who is so keen on "listening"? Certainly, "listening" might include "listening" to the criticisms of duly elected representative MPPs?
Surely Wynne might have bought herself some time and waited a spell for "sober second thought" to kick in and try one last stab at finding a way through, if she was really committed to passing her budget, and not merely granstanding on issues to make herself sound progressive, and blame the NDP for triggering an election.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals were secretly wishing that the NDP would oppose a budget seen by many as being "progressive".
But then why did the NDP go along with the Liberals wishes?
And where do Ontario's most vulnerable citizens fit into this world of political machinations?
Sun, 2014-05-04 22:31
#726
Maybe because the budget was never tabled?And even before the Horwath press conference, Liberal campaign workers were out and about passing out flyer denouncing the NDP for failing to "vote" for increased support for low income families, even though there was no vote because Kathleen Wynne made a big show of committing political Hara Kari and calling an election, before the budget was ever tabled or debated, something that makes one think it was never intended to pass.
Why would Wynne avoid debating her own budget, if she thought so much of it, and in so doing force Horwath to argue it for the public benefit? What happened to the great conciliator, who is so keen on "listening"? Certainly, "listening" might include "listening" to the criticisms of duly elected representative MPPs?
Surely Wynne might have bought herself some time and waited a spell for "sober second thought" to kick in and try one last stab at finding a way through, if she was really committed to passing her budget, and not merely granstanding on issues to make herself sound progressive, and blame the NDP for triggering an election.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals were secretly wishing that the NDP would oppose a budget seen by many as being "progressive".
But then why did the NDP go along with the Liberals wishes?
And where do Ontario's most vulnerable citizens fit into this world of political machinations?
Those vulnerable citizens are not getting the rate of income decrease they were promised dressed up as a raise.
The ones who were promoting it as "progressive" are people like Reg Cohn who are basically press release delivery boys for the Liberal party. Friggin UNIFOR, claimed that 1% increase in subsistence living wages for people on social assistance was a "good thing".
For Pete's sake, only a union leader who is a stooge and a mouth piece could possibly promote a less than the rate of inflation increase as being anything but a cut. That's like union talk 101. Cost of living increases below the rate of inflation, and wage freezes are cuts.
UNIFOR knows this full well; they are shilling.
Sun, 2014-05-04 22:49
#727
Those vulnerable citizens are not getting the rate of income decrease they were promised dressed up as a raise.The ones who were promoting it as "progressive" are people like Reg Cohn who are basically press release delivery boys for the Liberal party. Friggin UNIFOR, claimed that 1% increase in subsistence living wages for people on social assistance was a "good thing".
For Pete's sake, only a union leader who is a stooge and a mouth piece could possibly promote a less than the rate of inflation increase as being anything but a cut. That's like union talk 101. Cost of living increases below the rate of inflation, and wage freezes are cuts.
UNIFOR knows this full well; they are shilling.
Wouldn't a 1% increase work out to something like a $6 - $12 increase for single people depending on what category a person is in? That doesn't keep up with inflation but it is still an increase because recipients of social assistance and disability assistance are not guaranteed cost of living increases.
If the Conservatives win the election there is no guarantee that they will ever increase social assistance rates at all. They may even decrease them like Harris did in Ontario in the 90's.
And if the NDP win the election, they too will not likely establish a cost of living guarantee for social assistance recipients. NDP governments in Ontario, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, and BC, never established guaranteed cost of living increases when they were in office.
It would be great if the Ontario NDP put guaranteed cost of living increases for social assistance recipients on the election platform in the coming weeks!!
Sun, 2014-05-04 23:05
#728
I don't find it a cynical power-grab at all. If she had not allowed Wynne any time to do anything when Wynne first replaced McGuinty (and when Andrea was higher in polls than today) then I would agree. But, she worked with Wynne instead. However, seems a lot of the agreements that they came to did not get enacted upon by the Liberals, and various other examples of Liberal incompetance crept up (IE, Herb Gray Parkway in Windsor), so Andrea decided it's time for an election to let people decide if they want the same unreliable corrupt Libs, the regressive Cons, or the progressive NDP.
That's a reasonable perspective. But Horwath has had a strong showing since 2011. A Nanos poll done in January 2014 placed Horwath second on the leadership index with 55 points, behind Wynn's 71 points, ahead of Hudak's 49. That same poll found that only the NDP and the Greens have gained ground since election night 2011.
The latest numbers, published in today's Star:
The New Democrats’ decision to topple the Liberals and force a June 12 election appears to be backfiring, the first poll of the campaign suggests.
While the Progressive Conservatives lead in the Forum Research survey, the Liberals are poised to form another minority government due to the efficiency of their vote.
The poll showed Tim Hudak’s Tories at 38 per cent, Kathleen Wynne’s Liberals at 33 per cent and Andrea Horwath’s New Democrats at 22 per cent. Mike Schreiner’s Greens came in at 6 per cent.
As an Ontario public sector worker, I'm horrified.
I am not really sure how the argument for "opportunism" plays out in the context of NDP polling that has them in third place. A more likely culprit for opportunism might be made if they were polling second like the Liberals.
True, but the numbers had been fairly close, and Horwath consistently polled ahead of her party in the leadership index, suggesting that an upset was possible. Recall how Bob Rae was elected when the Liberals called an election only 3 years into their mandate in the wake of polls that predicted a robust Liberal majority.
If disgust with Liberal tactics worked for the NDP before, they may have thought there was a similar situation today. Ontarians are pretty fed up with Liberal incompetence as outlined exhaustively in this thread and elsewhere. Recall how in 1990, people were generally disgusted with the federal Conservative party of Brian Mulroney, and newly-elected Ontario Conservative party leader Mike Harris was (alas, temporarily) unable to overcome that prejudice against Conservatives, so voters were driven into the arms of the NDP. NDP strategists may have seen an analgous situation today, with our increasingly embattled and scandal-ridden Prime Minister in combination with a weak provincial Tory leader and a lame duck Liberal government potentially forming a perfect storm that favoured the orange party.
Like Jack Layton, Horwath didn't help the NDP gain ground by being an ideologue.
Sun, 2014-05-04 23:06
#729
It will be interesting to see what the platforms are and how they compare.
Sun, 2014-05-04 23:16
#730
Maybe because the budget was never tabled?And even before the Horwath press conference, Liberal campaign workers were out and about passing out flyer denouncing the NDP for failing to "vote" for increased support for low income families, even though there was no vote because Kathleen Wynne made a big show of committing political Hara Kari and calling an election, before the budget was ever tabled or debated, something that makes one think it was never intended to pass.
Why would Wynne avoid debating her own budget, if she thought so much of it, and in so doing force Horwath to argue it for the public benefit? What happened to the great conciliator, who is so keen on "listening"? Certainly, "listening" might include "listening" to the criticisms of duly elected representative MPPs?
Surely Wynne might have bought herself some time and waited a spell for "sober second thought" to kick in and try one last stab at finding a way through, if she was really committed to passing her budget, and not merely granstanding on issues to make herself sound progressive, and blame the NDP for triggering an election.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals were secretly wishing that the NDP would oppose a budget seen by many as being "progressive".
But then why did the NDP go along with the Liberals wishes?
And where do Ontario's most vulnerable citizens fit into this world of political machinations?
Those vulnerable citizens are not getting the rate of income decrease they were promised dressed up as a raise.
The ones who were promoting it as "progressive" are people like Reg Cohn who are basically press release delivery boys for the Liberal party. Friggin UNIFOR, claimed that 1% increase in subsistence living wages for people on social assistance was a "good thing".
For Pete's sake, only a union leader who is a stooge and a mouth piece could possibly promote a less than the rate of inflation increase as being anything but a cut. That's like union talk 101. Cost of living increases below the rate of inflation, and wage freezes are cuts.
UNIFOR knows this full well; they are shilling.
as an ontario resident on ODSP, I know that the NDP supports an increase in funding but what is Wynne's opinion on ODSP?
I remember after the last election Mcguinty wanted austerity but to get NDP support he couldn't cut ODSP.
What is Hudak's opinion? I assume he wants it gone. Does anyone have any info on his plans for the ODSP?
BTW the current rate is 833 a month.
Mon, 2014-05-05 00:08
#731
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExmlKKw0ZKk]Your Ontario, Your Choice[/url]
Mon, 2014-05-05 00:28
#732
Those vulnerable citizens are not getting the rate of income decrease they were promised dressed up as a raise.The ones who were promoting it as "progressive" are people like Reg Cohn who are basically press release delivery boys for the Liberal party. Friggin UNIFOR, claimed that 1% increase in subsistence living wages for people on social assistance was a "good thing".
For Pete's sake, only a union leader who is a stooge and a mouth piece could possibly promote a less than the rate of inflation increase as being anything but a cut. That's like union talk 101. Cost of living increases below the rate of inflation, and wage freezes are cuts.
UNIFOR knows this full well; they are shilling.
Wouldn't a 1% increase work out to something like a $6 - $12 increase for single people depending on what category a person is in? That doesn't keep up with inflation but it is still an increase because recipients of social assistance and disability assistance are not guaranteed cost of living increases.
The Liberals eliminated the start-up allowance (replacing it with some municipal program that's harder to get and is half the amount -- $799 to $400) and they either made the special needs diet allowance practically impossible to get or they eliminated it completely (I'd have to look that one up). Anyway, there's no defending the Liberals on their record of social assistance rates.
If the Conservatives win the election there is no guarantee that they will ever increase social assistance rates at all. They may even decrease them like Harris did in Ontario in the 90's.And if the NDP win the election, they too will not likely establish a cost of living guarantee for social assistance recipients. NDP governments in Ontario, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, and BC, never established guaranteed cost of living increases when they were in office.
It would be great if the Ontario NDP put guaranteed cost of living increases for social assistance recipients on the election platform in the coming weeks!!
It will be interesting to see the platforms of the parties. From the last platform of the NDP in the 2011 election:
We will reduce the clawback of social assistance benefits from people with disabilities when they’re moving back into a job. We will also ensure Ontario Works rates keep pace with inflation.
Mon, 2014-05-05 00:31
#733
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExmlKKw0ZKk]Your Ontario, Your Choice[/url]
Is this going to be on TV?
Mon, 2014-05-05 00:40
#734
It's a good ad. It's two minutes long, so I don't know if will be on TV or not, where spots are typically 30 seconds. Maybe an abbreviated version might be on TV.
Mon, 2014-05-05 01:17
#735
I don't find it a cynical power-grab at all. If she had not allowed Wynne any time to do anything when Wynne first replaced McGuinty (and when Andrea was higher in polls than today) then I would agree. But, she worked with Wynne instead. However, seems a lot of the agreements that they came to did not get enacted upon by the Liberals, and various other examples of Liberal incompetance crept up (IE, Herb Gray Parkway in Windsor), so Andrea decided it's time for an election to let people decide if they want the same unreliable corrupt Libs, the regressive Cons, or the progressive NDP.That's a reasonable perspective. But Horwath has had a strong showing since 2011. A Nanos poll done in January 2014 placed Horwath second on the leadership index with 55 points, behind Wynn's 71 points, ahead of Hudak's 49. That same poll found that only the NDP and the Greens have gained ground since election night 2011.
The latest numbers, published in today's Star:
The New Democrats’ decision to topple the Liberals and force a June 12 election appears to be backfiring, the first poll of the campaign suggests.
While the Progressive Conservatives lead in the Forum Research survey, the Liberals are poised to form another minority government due to the efficiency of their vote.
The poll showed Tim Hudak’s Tories at 38 per cent, Kathleen Wynne’s Liberals at 33 per cent and Andrea Horwath’s New Democrats at 22 per cent. Mike Schreiner’s Greens came in at 6 per cent.
As an Ontario public sector worker, I'm horrified.
I am not really sure how the argument for "opportunism" plays out in the context of NDP polling that has them in third place. A more likely culprit for opportunism might be made if they were polling second like the Liberals.True, but the numbers had been fairly close, and Horwath consistently polled ahead of her party in the leadership index, suggesting that an upset was possible. Recall how Bob Rae was elected when the Liberals called an election only 3 years into their mandate in the wake of polls that predicted a robust Liberal majority.
If disgust with Liberal tactics worked for the NDP before, they may have thought there was a similar situation today. Ontarians are pretty fed up with Liberal incompetence as outlined exhaustively in this thread and elsewhere. Recall how in 1990, people were generally disgusted with the federal Conservative party of Brian Mulroney, and newly-elected Ontario Conservative party leader Mike Harris was (alas, temporarily) unable to overcome that prejudice against Conservatives, so voters were driven into the arms of the NDP. NDP strategists may have seen an analgous situation today, with our increasingly embattled and scandal-ridden Prime Minister in combination with a weak provincial Tory leader and a lame duck Liberal government potentially forming a perfect storm that favoured the orange party.
Like Jack Layton, Horwath didn't help the NDP gain ground by being an ideologue.
If we are going to look at it merely on its tactical merits, as opposed to the presumed distinctions between the parties, ideologically speaking, then I am even more supportive of Horwath's strategic accumen.
The situation will be even less likely to produce positive results next year, with another year of scandals and inquiries. Lets note that Wynne calling an election puts several damaging legislative procedures on hold.
Appearing to be wedded at the hip to the Liberals can not possibly serve the NDPs interests, especially if they are seen to be the enablers of a corrupt government. There is a lot more to this picture than petty budget details. By next year, the Tories might very well have gotten rid of their albatros leader, and be even more likely to win.
I have asked people repeatedly, what possible thing could either the Liberals or the NDP do over the next year to change the general political landscape, and no one has even attempted to furnish an answer.
I think Horwath summed up this strategic picture quire nicely when she said:
"If we sold out today then, in the next election when the public looked for change, they would punish Liberals and New Democrats alike. We can’t let that scenario play out."
Therefore, why not now? There is more danger from Hudak next year, than there is today, I think
These remarks from Rosario Marchese are also worth considering:
Tory governments are not formed in Toronto, but in places like Windsor and Brampton and London. These are areas where for the first time in a generation, voters are looking at the NDP as a viable governing alternative.
And the NDP has been keeping the Tories out of such places. The PCs were supposed to win Niagara Falls last year, but we kept them out. They were supposed to win London West, but we kept them out. And they were supposed to win Kitchener-Waterloo and we kept them out.
The NDP is keeping the Tories out of government, but there is a limit to the patience of voters in these places and in our own. They have been crystal clear that they no longer trust the Liberals and they want an election.
If the NDP can't show them that we will hold the Liberals to account, these voters might go back to the Tories. And a year from now, when we must have an election no matter what, what if these voters are fed up with both Liberals and the NDP?
At that point, we would probably wish we had pulled the plug a year earlier.
From here: https://www.facebook.com/notes/rosario-marchese/why-i-couldnt-support-th...
Mon, 2014-05-05 01:22
#736
Rosario Marchese explains in detail why he did not support the budget: Why I Couldn't Support the Budget.
ETA: Ooops, just noticed that a link to the same article is in the previous post.
Mon, 2014-05-05 01:25
#737
Those vulnerable citizens are not getting the rate of income decrease they were promised dressed up as a raise.The ones who were promoting it as "progressive" are people like Reg Cohn who are basically press release delivery boys for the Liberal party. Friggin UNIFOR, claimed that 1% increase in subsistence living wages for people on social assistance was a "good thing".
For Pete's sake, only a union leader who is a stooge and a mouth piece could possibly promote a less than the rate of inflation increase as being anything but a cut. That's like union talk 101. Cost of living increases below the rate of inflation, and wage freezes are cuts.
UNIFOR knows this full well; they are shilling.
Wouldn't a 1% increase work out to something like a $6 - $12 increase for single people depending on what category a person is in? That doesn't keep up with inflation but it is still an increase because recipients of social assistance and disability assistance are not guaranteed cost of living increases.
My point is that it is not a "progressive" budget. If it were progressive, it would keep up with, and exceed the rate of inflation.
Therefore "some people" saying Horwath is turning her nose up at her "dream budget", and union leaders who are pushing what amount to cuts for people on social assistance by calling them "good things", when in fact they would never accept such an offer for their members indicates a high degress of "buy in" with the Liberal Party -- the stock line going into this election has been that the Liberals are to the left of the NDP, and I am afraid this is just spin, and these are talking points.
It may be the "least regressive budget" that Ontario has seen in a long time. but it isn't "progressive", at all.
Jerry Diaz should be ashamed of himself.
Mon, 2014-05-05 03:35
#738
My point is that it is not a "progressive" budget. If it were progressive, it would keep up with, and exceed the rate of inflation.
Therefore "some people" saying Horwath is turning her nose up at her "dream budget", and union leaders who are pushing what amount to cuts for people on social assistance by calling them "good things", when in fact they would never accept such an offer for their members indicates a high degress of "buy in" with the Liberal Party -- the stock line going into this election has been that the Liberals are to the left of the NDP, and I am afraid this is just spin, and these are talking points.
It may be the "least regressive budget" that Ontario has seen in a long time. but it isn't "progressive", at all.
Jerry Diaz should be ashamed of himself.
Hopefully the NDP election platform will clearly separate the NDP from the Liberals in the minds of the voters. Here in BC, the BC NDP's 2013 election platform offered very little for traditional NDP supporters. So when it came time to vote their was very little enthusiasm amongst NDP leaning voters to actually go out and vote.
Mon, 2014-05-05 09:21
#739
My point is that it is not a "progressive" budget. If it were progressive, it would keep up with, and exceed the rate of inflation.
Therefore "some people" saying Horwath is turning her nose up at her "dream budget", and union leaders who are pushing what amount to cuts for people on social assistance by calling them "good things", when in fact they would never accept such an offer for their members indicates a high degress of "buy in" with the Liberal Party -- the stock line going into this election has been that the Liberals are to the left of the NDP, and I am afraid this is just spin, and these are talking points.
It may be the "least regressive budget" that Ontario has seen in a long time. but it isn't "progressive", at all.
Jerry Diaz should be ashamed of himself.
Hopefully the NDP election platform will clearly separate the NDP from the Liberals in the minds of the voters. Here in BC, the BC NDP's 2013 election platform offered very little for traditional NDP supporters. So when it came time to vote their was very little enthusiasm amongst NDP leaning voters to actually go out and vote.
One can only hope.
Mon, 2014-05-05 09:37
#740
knownothing
At least Jerry Diaz has made it clear that Horwath and the NDP are not beholden to union interests
Mon, 2014-05-05 09:49
#741
If the PC win a minority, any chance for the NDP and Libs to form a 'coalition' to keep them out of power?
Mon, 2014-05-05 11:06
#742
There was a big difference in between the parties in BC.
Working people supported the Liberals because they were for jobs (Christy Clark in a hard hat for 30 days) and workers did not support the NDP, because they came across as being against jobs (Adrian Dix against Kinder Morgan, etc.)
It is now probably too late for the NDP in BC.
My point is that it is not a "progressive" budget. If it were progressive, it would keep up with, and exceed the rate of inflation.
Therefore "some people" saying Horwath is turning her nose up at her "dream budget", and union leaders who are pushing what amount to cuts for people on social assistance by calling them "good things", when in fact they would never accept such an offer for their members indicates a high degress of "buy in" with the Liberal Party -- the stock line going into this election has been that the Liberals are to the left of the NDP, and I am afraid this is just spin, and these are talking points.
It may be the "least regressive budget" that Ontario has seen in a long time. but it isn't "progressive", at all.
Jerry Diaz should be ashamed of himself.
Hopefully the NDP election platform will clearly separate the NDP from the Liberals in the minds of the voters. Here in BC, the BC NDP's 2013 election platform offered very little for traditional NDP supporters. So when it came time to vote their was very little enthusiasm amongst NDP leaning voters to actually go out and vote.
Mon, 2014-05-05 11:25
#743
That's an over simplification NR.
Mon, 2014-05-05 11:45
#744
Working people supported the Liberals because they were for jobs (Christy Clark in a hard hat for 30 days)
Andrea needs to be fitted for her hard hat PRONTO!
Mon, 2014-05-05 11:54
#745
mods: we now have a 2-year-old, 700-post thread above ...
Is no one going to start a new 2014 ONT election thread? (I a not here often enough to launch that baby...)
Mon, 2014-05-05 12:00
#746
What's your issue Dave - having it all in one thread works best as it is much easier to find
mods: we now have a 2-year-old, 700-post thread above ...
Is no one going to start a new 2014 ONT election thread? (I a not here often enough to launch that baby...)
Mon, 2014-05-05 12:05
#747
Pogo
I agree. I think it was more of a trust issue (the weathervane ad), plus more of a general angst about jobs.That's an over simplification NR.
Mon, 2014-05-05 12:09
#748
Tory attack dog and PC energy critic MPP Lisa McLeod is following Kathleen Wynne on various campaign stops. Making herself available to the press afterwards to criticize every speech, every policy and every word that comes out of Kathleen Wynne's mouth.
Apparently she feels confident that she will be re-elected in her riding, which gives her time to shadow Kathleen Wynne on the campaign trail.
Mon, 2014-05-05 14:49
#749
OK, was being charitable,
We also had an inappropriate leader and campaign manager - sorry, forgot to mention that.
That's an over simplification NR.
Mon, 2014-05-05 15:07
#750
i see Alex Cullen is running in Ottawa West- Nepean, what are his chances?
What are the NDP's chances in Ottawa and Eastern Ontario?
If anyone from Ottawa could fill me in I would appreciate it.
Mon, 2014-05-05 15:08
#751
What's your issue Dave - having it all in one thread works best as it is much easier to find
mods: we now have a 2-year-old, 700-post thread above ...
Is no one going to start a new 2014 ONT election thread? (I a not here often enough to launch that baby...)
well, for me it's just way too big and way too old; new issue (2014 election), new thread
let the mods decide