Ontario Federation of Labour calls for adoption of "most progressive budget" in years

178 posts / 0 new

Sat, 2014-05-17 23:52

Aristotleded24

Unionist wrote:
KenS wrote:

But A24 was making a broader point, about doing something more difficult than that: not just getting people to swicth from the PQ to QS, but getting small town and small c conservative voters to see that they actually have a lot in common with you, and that they want you to represent them.

So Nora is based in Québec city, in what we call our national capital region, containing 11 provincial ridings. One of them is PQ. One. That's 1. The rest are Liberal or CAQ. And it's the federal Conservative heartland (such as it is, always diminishing thank the gods).

So A24's point may have some kind of validity, but trying to apply it to Nora Loreto demonstrates a lack of knowledge of both her and what's happening on the ground - as your post above amply demonstrates - and it's a bit out of character for you, because you know more than most about the distinct peculiarities of this place (QC).

Remind me how well QS has done in these regions in the last 2 elections?

Sun, 2014-05-18 11:12

#53

Unionist

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Remind me how well QS has done in these regions in the last 2 elections?

I do beg your pardon, A24, but the only purpose of this thread drift was to explain something about the background and activity of Nora Loreto, in response to someone calling her a "quack" and implying that she was insane. There is no doubt that Nora Loreto will survive such feeble attacks.

If you want to discuss QS's lack of success in the most conservative-voting region of Québec, perhaps another thread would be more appropriate. Can't imagine anything more remote to the theme of this thread, which was designed to discuss labour's approach to the proposed budget and generally to the current political situation in Ontario.

Sun, 2014-05-18 18:41

#54

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Remind me how well QS has done in these regions in the last 2 elections?

I do beg your pardon, A24, but the only purpose of this thread drift was to explain something about the background and activity of Nora Loreto, in response to someone calling her a "quack" and implying that she was insane. There is no doubt that Nora Loreto will survive such feeble attacks.

If you want to discuss QS's lack of success in the most conservative-voting region of Québec, perhaps another thread would be more appropriate. Can't imagine anything more remote to the theme of this thread, which was designed to discuss labour's approach to the proposed budget and generally to the current political situation in Ontario.

Far be if from you do deal with the issue presented. You would write off entire regions of Quebec, simply because they tend to vote Conservative, as opposed to trying to confront why it is they do so. This isn't just an "ideological" contest where one can defeat entrenched values by opposing them with an allegedly superior alternative set of values, without indicating a path that addresses the real world that produces those values, as if merely pontificating will somehow entice people to suddenly shout "Eureka! By Jove, why didn't I think of that before!"

The demographic question is very pertinent, actually. Given that in Ontario the most "left" wing elements of the NDP, those who are closesest in stance to those in QS, all happen to represent downtown Toronto ridings, in much the same way as QS represents the urban left in Montreal.

We are talking Marchese, Schein, Tabuns and DiNovo.

What is fascinating about the line taken by Nora Loreto is that it is being used by the Liberals to undermine the basis of support for the most left-leaning representatives of the NDP in Ontario, through the agency of the Toronto Star. And I can guarantee you this attack is having no impact anywhere else but in Toronto, and not Ontario wide, in what are the most "Conservative-voting" region of Ontario, where a damning attack by Rick Salutin has more of the effect of an endorsement for the NDP.

Perhaps you don't really understand what the Liberal Party of Ontario is all about. It is an alliance between the Liberal center and the small "c" Conservative right. Consider for example that the present Minister of Education, Liz Sandals, was a camaign worker for the Mike Harris's Tories.

That is who they are. These are not the Quebec Liberals of Thomas Mulcair.

I hope you don't really think that Goar, Salutin, Cohn et al, are really going to be taking an interest in views of the OFL, Rebick, Loreto and other "left" critics of the NDP after they have succeeded in sweeping out the Toronto core left from their seats in the legislature, and replacing them Liberal corporate stooges.

Because that is the only place where the concern trolling from the Toronto Star is having any impact at all.

Mon, 2014-05-19 17:52

#55

Aristotleded24

In terms of the progressive economics piece, it has nothing to do with economics and is more a political piece that makes ridiculous, nonsensical arguments that have been discreidited numerous times, so I won't go over that again. It's interesting that they accuse the NDP of "sectarianism," when I think they are pretty sectarian themselves. Have they never had any contact with conservative voters? Do they imagine that people who vote for conservatives (some of whom even voted NDP in the past) are evil people who are unworthy? And if the left is about "the people" and "the people" choose to be represented by Hudak, what does that say about how effective the left is in representing "the people? I come from the Prairies, a small-c-conservative region, and if I automatically wrote off anyone just on the basis of their politics I would be a very lonely individual.

I get really tired of hearing from voters in urban areas acting like we should run in fear of conservative voters, or that if the NDP tries to win in conservative areas that the NDP is automatically sold out. In terms of whether or not Hudak forms a government, urban voters in Toronto have nothing to say about it. There are more than enough seats from outside of Toronto that can tip Hudak over the top to form government, and the way to stop Hudak is to go into the areas where the conservatives are strong and beat the conservatives there. These arguments, and those put out by the Toronto Star, will at most have the impact of moving swing Liberal-NDP voters into the Liberal camp, and in the best case scenario for the Liberals, may net them all the NDP seats in Toronto, but outsie of Toronto, where the PCs are strong or are in contention, these arguments hold no sway with anyone whatsoever. Rosairo Marchese is one of the few members of the Toronto elite intelligencia who understands this. It's one thing to acknowledge that some demograhics are anywhere from hard to impossible for the NDP or the left to reach. Listening to some authors demonize these demographics is something else. It's bad enough that the Fords do this, I don't want to see the left head down this same path.

As for what is happening "on the ground," whatever is happening in activist circles may or may not reflect what is happening in the wider community.

Mon, 2014-05-19 18:25

#56

Unionist

Aristotleded24 wrote:

I get really tired of hearing from voters in urban areas acting like we should run in fear of conservative voters, or that if the NDP tries to win in conservative areas that the NDP is automatically sold out.

You're the one "demonizing" non-urban voters, by suggesting that they will only ever vote for right-wing neoliberal small government cost-cutting vomit-inducing sloganeers like Horwath. You are dead wrong. They will vote for a party which courageously takes on the banks and the oil barons and the billionaires of every ilk. [b]There is no such party[/b], unfortunately. So, we need to organize at the level of the movement.

That's why this thread is about organized labour (which if you read the title you could have divined and avoided this drift). Union leaders are constantly tempted to join forces with the financial elite. They are bribed and bought and severed from their base. So when, as in Ontario today, they actually dare to condemn the curse that is Horwath and take a non-partisan stand in favour of a few tiny measures that may slightly benefit the workers and the poor, they are to be applauded. I applaud them. And I'll leave you and Horwath to appeal to those whom you insultingly consider to be immune to progressive calls and movements.

Mon, 2014-05-19 18:39

#57

Aristotleded24

Unionist wrote:
You're the one "demonizing" non-urban voters, by suggesting that they will only ever vote for right-wing neoliberal small government cost-cutting vomit-inducing sloganeers like Horwath. You are dead wrong. They will vote for a party which courageously takes on the banks and the oil barons and the billionaires of every ilk. [b]There is no such party[/b], unfortunately. So, we need to organize at the level of the movement.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never said any such thing. Try reading for comprehension.

Unionist wrote:
That's why this thread is about organized labour (which if you read the title you could have divined and avoided this drift). Union leaders are constantly tempted to join forces with the financial elite. They are bribed and bought and severed from their base. So when, as in Ontario today, they actually dare to condemn the curse that is Horwath and take a non-partisan stand in favour of a few tiny measures that may slightly benefit the workers and the poor, they are to be applauded. I applaud them. And I'll leave you and Horwath to appeal to those whom you insultingly consider to be immune to progressive calls and movements.

To a good chunk of the average population, union leaders are merely just another "special interest" group that is more concerned with their own well-being than anyone else's, and the opinions of union leadership are not always reflective of union members as a whole. There are union members who *gasp* vote PC, and it was union voters in Wisconson who helped Scott Walker survive the recall vote. Additionally, as Rokossovsky has pointed out, there are other union spokespeople in Ontario who have denounced the Liberal budget, and the ATU, a union, is running ads criticizing the Liberals in Toronto. The Toronto Star may be painting a picutre that unions are all happy with Wynne's budget, but that is clearly not the case. And if these union leaders are more concerned about the issues than "partisan politics," why do some pronouncements by union leaders read as if they were scripted talking points of one political party or another?

Mon, 2014-05-19 20:34

#58

Unionist

I'm not engaging you on this level, A24. The ATU! This is laughable. Look up the distinction between progressive and reactionary. And then convince me that Sid Ryan gets his talking points from the Liberals. How very sad indeed.

Mon, 2014-05-19 20:35

#59

Unionist

Mon, 2014-05-19 20:36

#60

Unionist

Mon, 2014-05-19 21:07

#61

Aristotleded24

Unionist wrote:
I'm not engaging you on this level, A24.

Heck, why not? You are of course the decider of whatever is progressive or regressive! Whatever you say is the truth!

Mon, 2014-05-19 21:12

#62

Unionist

No, A24. That's not it. It's because of your statements about the trade union movement, gleaned from the MSM. This thread is about workers' unions and their attitude to political parties and their "promises". You should listen, for a fair bit of time, to those who have militated in that movement for decades, and then offer some opinions. Show some respect.

Thu, 2014-05-22 10:27

#63

Unionist

From CUPE:

[url=http://cupevotes.ca/?page_id=1233]How will Hudak’s 100,000 public-sector job cuts affect your community? Click on your city to find out.[/url]

Fri, 2014-05-23 03:41

#64

Rokossovsky

From the "reactionary" president of ATU113:

Hudak’s transit plan is theft says Kinnear

Bob Kinnear wrote:

Ontario Conservative Leader Tim Hudak’s plan to have the province take over Toronto’s subways is nothing less than theft of Toronto’s most valuable infrastructure, paid for by Torontonians over the past 60 years, says Bob Kinnear, President of Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113, which represents 10,000 TTC workers.

“It would be a financial disaster for the TTC,” says Kinnear. “The subway is the only profitable part of our transit system and it supports the bus and streetcar surface routes that feed into it.

Fri, 2014-05-23 15:14

#65

Unionist

It's official. Unifor's Jerry Dias is taking exactly the same position that the CAW Council adopted in December 2005. Time to expel Jerry Dias from the ONDP, right? If he's a member, that is. I figure if they expel enough people, they'll get down to a serious core group that actually understands what Horwath is talking about.

Here it is in text form, from Unifor's election flyer:

Quote:
Tim Hudak poses a significant threat to workers’ rights and the well-being of our
families and communities. After consultation with our members and elected
representatives, Unifor is urging our membership to help stop Hudak.

The NDP and Liberals should work together for progress. Unifor is encouraging members
to consider voting for the incumbent NDP candidate or the candidate best positioned to
defeat the Conservative candidate. The stakes are simply too high to do anything else.

Fri, 2014-05-23 15:19

#66

josh

He's 100% correct. Hudak is a clear and present danger. There may have been other elections where this stance was not appropriate. This election is not one of them.

Sat, 2014-05-24 00:54

#67

Aristotleded24

josh wrote:
He's 100% correct. Hudak is a clear and present danger. There may have been other elections where this stance was not appropriate. This election is not one of them.

And if Hudak wins the election, the sun will burn out, the moon will turn to blood, the stars will fall out of the sky and scorch the Earth on impact, and the rivers and lakes will all dry up.

Not that I think a Hudak government will be a wonderful thing for Ontario, but I find some of the hyperbole whenever a right-wing party can potentially win an election to be a bit dramatic, and it's the same nonsense we heard in 2006 when Harper won. (To say nothing of how the preceding Liberal governments paved the way for such parties either with policies not that different, or their general corruption and arrogance while in office.) It's also a desparate tack taken by the Liberals because they Liberals don't want to do the work necessary to win voters, and they have nothing to offer.

Besides, this call for the NDP and the Liberals to co-operate is nonsense, and anybody with any political sense knows that. Do you think the Liberals will agree to stand down in NDP-PC races like Essex, London West, Niagra Falls, Waterloo, and Oshawa? Then why is the NDP being asked to do the same? And after the last federal election, where the NDP nearly won Bramalea-Gore-Malton despite having no previous history, is Dias niaeve enough to think that past voting patterns will guarantee future voting patterns? Not only that, but by linking the Liberals and the NDP the way he did, he opens up the field for Hudak to claim that the "special interest union bosses" are running Ontario, and the only way to stop them will be a PC majority.

It's one thing to suggest that the NDP hasn't spoken enough about certain issues or that her communications strategy is incompetent. Make that case. I'll listen. Linking the NDP to the popularity of a Liberal government that is unpopular because of its own arrogance and its decisions while in office is something else, and is a recipie for failure.

Sat, 2014-05-24 01:44

#68

Aristotleded24

Unionist wrote:
It's official. Unifor's Jerry Dias is taking exactly the same position that the CAW Council adopted in December 2005.

And that tactic worked so well, because as we know Harper lost that election and....

Oh wait.

Seriously, what logic informs their thinking? Strategic voting has not once given the intended result, that of stopping a right-wing government, so why are they continuing on in that line?

Sat, 2014-05-24 03:51

#69

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

Quote:
Tim Hudak poses a significant threat to workers’ rights and the well-being of our
families and communities. After consultation with our members and elected
representatives, Unifor is urging our membership to help stop Hudak.

The NDP and Liberals should work together for progress. Unifor is encouraging members
to consider voting for the incumbent NDP candidate or the candidate best positioned to
defeat the Conservative candidate. The stakes are simply too high to do anything else.

Good news. It seems the problems in the OFL have been worked out and labour is firing on all three of its remaining operative cylinders. A firm endorsement for the NDP, and a qualified endorsement for anyone who can beat the PC candidate, depending on local circumstances. More supportive of the ONDP than in the last election, where the unions backed ALL NDP incumbents and Liberals in ALL other ridings, and Ken Lewenza of CAW endorsed Dalton McGuinty specifically.

Now its just whoever has the best shot, which is probably reflective of the upsurge of support for the ONDP in western Ontario. In his Youtube video speech, as here, he doesn't even say "Liberal".

I guess that means that Unifor has moved to the right of the Liberals, along with the NDP.

Tue, 2014-05-27 16:50

#70

Rokossovsky

First, not all union leaders agree that the Liberal government is the most progressive in memory. I don't.

Why? Well, buried within the myriad of Liberal budget promises, most of which will never see the light of day, is a $1.25 billion cut to front line public services that will begin to hit public services even before the Liberals have finished implementing the $17.7 billion in cuts over three years that were announced in the 2012 Budget.

Add to that a scheme to "recycle assets" or auction off public assets and services through something called "complex alternative service delivery," and what the dissident 34 call a "progressive" budget turns out to be one of the most draconian ever presented with a wrapping as attractive as that of Prime Minister Harper's famed omnibus bills. In the case of both, the devil is in the details. We should not ignore those details.

OPSEU President says 'Horwath has courage

Wed, 2014-05-28 04:15

#71

Rokossovsky

Comparing the parties: Five key issues that matter to OPSEU members

"Of the major parties, the NDP has been the most pro-union. Private members’ bills by NDP MPPs have proposed anti-scab legislation for Ontario, card-based certification for all workers, stronger protections for employees during organizing drives, easier access to arbitration for first contracts, and other improvements. The NDP favours increasing the minimum wage to $12 an hour within two years."

Fri, 2014-05-30 06:44

#72

Unionist

Jerry Dias calls for "strategic voting" to defeat Hudak:

[url=http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/29/anyone_but_tim_huda... but Tim Hudak for Ontario premier[/url]

Fri, 2014-05-30 22:01

#73

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

Jerry Dias calls for "strategic voting" to defeat Hudak:

[url=http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/29/anyone_but_tim_huda... but Tim Hudak for Ontario premier[/url]

Yeah. Last time the CAW endorsed McGuinty, straight up. Looks like the Liberals are losing their grip.

Sat, 2014-05-31 01:21

#74

Rokossovsky

The real scandal in Ontario is privatization

"Just look at the past two decades in Ontario and you'll see a long trail of privatization disasters, including the contracting out of highway maintenance," said OPSEU President Warren (Smokey) Thomas. "The PC and Liberal governments have been caught siphoning billions of public dollars to private investors. Every time, it's the same story. Quality of service goes down, cost to the public goes up, and transparency and accountability go missing."

Sat, 2014-05-31 01:25

#75

Rokossovsky

Ornge, Ontario's air ambulance service, faces 17 labour code charges
Charges relate to May 2013 crash that killed 4 Ornge helicopter crew members

The document alleges that Ornge permitted the pilots to fly the S-76A helicopter "without adequate training in the operation of that specific aircraft," failed to provide the pilots with "a means to enable them to maintain visual reference while operating at night," and that Donald Mark Filliter, the crew's captain, had "insufficient experience in night operations."

Filliter's pilot proficiency check in the helicopter was incomplete at the time of the crash, according to the charges laid out in the document, and in allowing Filliter and his first officer, Jacques Dupuy, to fly together, Ornge violated its own "green-on-green" pilot policy.

Sat, 2014-05-31 02:34

#76

autoworker autoworker's picture

Unionist wrote:

Jerry Dias calls for "strategic voting" to defeat Hudak:

[url=http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/29/anyone_but_tim_huda... but Tim Hudak for Ontario premier[/url]

Unifor Local 444 has formally endorsed incumbent Liberal, Teresa Piruzza, despite encouraging signs that ONDP candidate, Lisa Gretzky, has a fighting chance at taking Windsor West, while the PC challenger hasn't a snowball's chance in hell. This must be disconcerting for all the ONDP campaign workers who have worked tirelessly, over the years. Will the same mixed message be employed against Harper, next year? If I were Brian Masse, I'd be worried, along with other NDP incumbents in Ontario.

Sat, 2014-05-31 02:34

#77

autoworker autoworker's picture

Unionist wrote:

Jerry Dias calls for "strategic voting" to defeat Hudak:

[url=http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/29/anyone_but_tim_huda... but Tim Hudak for Ontario premier[/url]

Sat, 2014-05-31 11:21

#78

Unionist

autoworker wrote:

Unifor Local 444 has formally endorsed incumbent Liberal, Teresa Piruzza, despite encouraging signs that ONDP candidate, Lisa Gretzky, has a fighting chance at taking Windsor West, while the PC challenger hasn't a snowball's chance in hell. [...] Will the same mixed message be employed against Harper, next year?

My understanding was that Unifor's very simple message is: "Re-elect all NDP incumbents, and elsewhere elect whoever has the best chance to beat the PCs."

So, whether you (or I) agree with that message or not, how is endorsement of Piruzza a "mixed message"? I guess if Gretzky is the likely winner, and 444 has ignored that accepted fact, they'd be going against Unifor's call.

Maybe Unifor should have added: "Where the PCs are absolutely not even in contention, vote NDP even if they're not leading"?

Sat, 2014-05-31 11:25

#79

Pogo

Maybe they should have.

Sat, 2014-05-31 11:50

#80

Unionist

Warren "Smokey" Thomas wrote:

Too bad the NDP 34 won't put down their white wine, get back into their work clothes and come to see how average people feel about the election.

I'm out there every day. I know more than ever that average people believe Horwath is on the right track.

He's my hero. I'll bet he wears a hard hat and safety boots to the office. Just an average people kinda guy.

Sat, 2014-05-31 21:35

#81

mark_alfred

I might be wrong, but I believe Smokey Thomas was a nurse in a psychiatric hospital previously, rather than an office worker. That's as front-line as you can get. Anyway, both Thomas and OPSEU are great. OPSEU was at the forefront in the fight against Harris. So now, sitting back and cowering while the Lib government begins to privatize everything just isn't their style.

Sat, 2014-05-31 21:47

#82

autoworker autoworker's picture

So, now the choice is between Chardonnay and Cabernet, as long as it's from Ontario.

Sat, 2014-05-31 21:47

#83

autoworker autoworker's picture

So, now the choice is between Chardonnay and Cabernet, as long as it's from Ontario.

Sat, 2014-05-31 21:58

#84

Unionist

mark_alfred wrote:

I might be wrong, but I believe Smokey Thomas was a nurse in a psychiatric hospital previously, rather than an office worker. That's as front-line as you can get.

Gee, you have a lot of respect for office workers, huh? And that gives Brother Smokey Thomas the right to ridicule dedicated activists with white-wine dripping contempt? Did someone condemn him or his union - or just his precious Horwath?

Quote:
Anyway, both Thomas and OPSEU are great. OPSEU was at the forefront in the fight against Harris. So now, sitting back and cowering while the Lib government begins to privatize everything just isn't their style.

"Cowering", like Judy Rebick and Michele Landsberg and Cathy Crowe and Sid Ryan and Jerry Dias and Fred Hahn ... That's why I said Smokey's my man! He shows power, where others just cower.

I don't know much about Smokey Thomas. I do recall that he "bargained", and strongly promoted, a 2-year wage freeze for his members last year. I guess you can do that when you're in touch with real honest-to-goodness "average people" like he is, every single day.

Sat, 2014-05-31 22:50

#85

mark_alfred

Like Horwath says, people have a right to their opinions. I stand by my comment that I feel it's good OPSEU doesn't sit back and cower in the face of Wynne and the Liberals trying to privatize everything.

Sun, 2014-06-01 00:24

#86

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

"Cowering", like Judy Rebick and Michele Landsberg and Cathy Crowe and Sid Ryan and Jerry Dias and Fred Hahn ... That's why I said Smokey's my man! He shows power, where others just cower.

The difference between Fred Hahn, and the rest of these "concerned" left luminaries, is that he did not "endorse" the most "progressive budget in a generation", indeed he quite carefully avoided doing so. In case you didn't notice, quite a few large unions, and their leadership, did not offer an opinion on what the ONDP should do, as far as the Liberal budget was concerned. Hahn is among those.

Hahn on the budget:

Quote:

Thomas was not alone in his condemnation of the short-lived budget.

He was joined by Fred Hahn, president of the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE).

Hahn said he feared the budget would increase poverty, kill jobs and hurt communities.

“it will pull billions out of the economy, throw thousands out of work and cut services that our communities rely on,” he said.

Not exactly "the most progressive budget in a generation."

What Hahn did do, and quite rightly in my view, is criticize a specific ONDP policy: the ministry of "Savings and Accountability". Even when doing so, Hahn made it really clear that Ontarians needed "an alternative" to the Liberals and Conservatives, thus endorsing neither of those options.

There is a substantial difference between critique, on point on policy, and endorsing the Liberals and their budget, which is what Sid Ryan and Jerry Diaz did and making vague generalizations about "campaigning from the right", which is what Rebick and Landseberg did, when also endorsing the Liberals.

Sun, 2014-06-01 00:39

#87

Aristotleded24

Unionist wrote:
"Cowering", like Judy Rebick and Michele Landsberg and Cathy Crowe and Sid Ryan and Jerry Dias and Fred Hahn ... That's why I said Smokey's my man! He shows power, where others just cower.

Well, Ontario seems to be the only province with the mindset of "OH MY GOD, THE CONSERVATIVES MIGHT GET IN, WE HAVE TO STOP THEM OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL COME TO AN END AND WE WILL ALL BE DOOMED!" Why does Hudak generate more fear in Ontario than other right-wingers do, for example Brian Pallister? He is just as right-wing as Hudak.

Anywas, in terms of strategy and stopping the PCs, you need to take a look at what works, and what doesn't, and strategic voting does not work. Ever. Find a new strategy. And by the way, "the people" will on occaision vote for right-wing governments, so that means unions and their allies always have to have strategies and approaches that do not depend on their friends being on the governing side of the aisle. That's unfortunately the corner that the labour movement in Manitoba has painted itself into.

Sun, 2014-06-01 04:36

#88

Rokossovsky

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Unionist wrote:
"Cowering", like Judy Rebick and Michele Landsberg and Cathy Crowe and Sid Ryan and Jerry Dias and Fred Hahn ... That's why I said Smokey's my man! He shows power, where others just cower.

Well, Ontario seems to be the only province with the mindset of "OH MY GOD, THE CONSERVATIVES MIGHT GET IN, WE HAVE TO STOP THEM OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL COME TO AN END AND WE WILL ALL BE DOOMED!" Why does Hudak generate more fear in Ontario than other right-wingers do, for example Brian Pallister? He is just as right-wing as Hudak.

Anywas, in terms of strategy and stopping the PCs, you need to take a look at what works, and what doesn't, and strategic voting does not work. Ever. Find a new strategy. And by the way, "the people" will on occaision vote for right-wing governments, so that means unions and their allies always have to have strategies and approaches that do not depend on their friends being on the governing side of the aisle. That's unfortunately the corner that the labour movement in Manitoba has painted itself into.

Labour is never going to overcome the stench of the accussation tha they are "in bed with the Liberals", as long as they sneak through the back door and into the hallway's of power so they can jump "in bed with the Liberals".

Sun, 2014-06-01 19:48

#89

Unionist

Labour continues to join in the fight against the abject betrayal of the Liberals and the NDP both:

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/minimum-wage-increase-not-enough-f... wage increase not enough for some in Windsor[/url]

Quote:

Hundreds of workers rallied at Festival Plaza Friday afternoon, urging action to end poverty in Ontario.

It was organized by the Canadian Union of Public Employees, the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty and Raise the Rates Campaign.

The rally called on parties to raise social assistance rates.

Sun, 2014-06-01 21:01

#90

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

Labour continues to join in the fight against the abject betrayal of the Liberals and the NDP both:

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/minimum-wage-increase-not-enough-f... wage increase not enough for some in Windsor[/url]

Quote:

Hundreds of workers rallied at Festival Plaza Friday afternoon, urging action to end poverty in Ontario.

It was organized by the Canadian Union of Public Employees, the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty and Raise the Rates Campaign.

The rally called on parties to raise social assistance rates.

Clearly a far more consistent position than calling for the support of the "most progressive budget in a generation", which is what the OFL and Unifor were on about. We see once again how CUPE and Fred Hahn have a clearly distinct position from those who are trying to leverage concern of the minimum wage demand and social assistance rates, in order to justify support for the Liberals.

Certainly Rebick, Landsberg and the other signatories of the "leaked" letter expressed no such nuance, instead expressing outrage that the ONDP had sunk the precious Liberal budget. They had an opportunity to make the demand on wages and social assistance rates in their letter and they failed to do so -- clearly to some the Liberal status quo was good enough.

Sun, 2014-06-01 23:02

#91

mark_alfred

Thames Valley Elementary Teachers Supporting NDP The Thames Valley chapter of the Elementary Teachers Federation of Ontario is throwing its support behind the NDP.

Wed, 2014-06-04 03:12

#92

Rokossovsky

OPSEU: EPIC FAIL - a short history of privatization in Ontario

Sat, 2014-06-07 13:19

#93

mark_alfred

An interesting thing about this alleged "most progressive budget" is that it does not actually raise taxes on the very rich at the top. The top bracket of these tax payers will still pay 13.16%. Instead, it's simply that the group paying it is expanded. So, the top bracket is expanded from those earning above $509,000 a year to those earning equal to or above $220,000 per year. So the very rich at the very top are untouched in this budget.

Sat, 2014-06-07 13:37

#94

Unionist

mark_alfred wrote:

An interesting thing about this alleged "most progressive budget" is that it does not actually raise taxes on the very rich at the top. The top bracket of these tax payers will still pay 13.16%. Instead, it's simply that the group paying it is expanded. So, the top bracket is expanded from those earning above $509,000 a year to those earning equal to or above $220,000 per year. So the very rich at the very top are untouched in this budget.

And what does the ONDP platform say about raising those taxes?

[b]HINT:[/b] SFA.

Sat, 2014-06-07 13:53

#95

mark_alfred

That's true. I do feel the NDP budget is too sparse in details. Still, that they will raise corporate taxes while the others won't is sufficient for me.

Sat, 2014-06-07 14:07

#96

Rokossovsky

They have said that the Liberal budget is the basis of their program with additions and subtractions to what is laid out in the Liberal budget.

Sat, 2014-06-07 14:18

#97

Unionist

mark_alfred wrote:

That's true. I do feel the NDP budget is too sparse in details. Still, that they will raise corporate taxes while the others won't is sufficient for me.

Even though they [b]lowered[/b] their corporate tax increase from 2.5% to 1% without any explanation?

And even though you criticize the Liberal budget for not raising personal taxes enough - while the NDP's proposed increase is apparently 0%?

I'm glad you don't see any problem with your logic. But if you're going to critique the labour movement's verdict about the budget being the "most progressive in years", and you're pointing to personal tax increases, perhaps think that another example might work better.

Sat, 2014-06-07 14:42

#98

mark_alfred

This is a thread about the Liberal budget. The budget doesn't raise taxes on the very top income bracket. Also, it keeps corporate taxes at the same rate, this being after they had been lowered by the Liberals who previously had pledged to raise them. Further, this budget (as the Globe points out), is a fiscally conservative budget that holds program spending flat for three years, resulting in cuts that (as the Business News Network states) are "the deepest freeze in two decades", and "a 2017 Liberal government would drop spending by the most per person since former Premier Mike Harris won election on deficit elimination in 1995."

So Unionist, if you wish to defend the Liberal government's budget as "the most progressive in years", feel free to do so. I disagree.

Sat, 2014-06-07 14:54

#99

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

That's true. I do feel the NDP budget is too sparse in details. Still, that they will raise corporate taxes while the others won't is sufficient for me.

And even though you criticize the Liberal budget for not raising personal taxes enough - while the NDP's proposed increase is apparently 0%?

That is false. The ONDP have stated quite clearly that the framework of their program is the Liberal budget, with additions and subtractions. They do not say they are not going to institute this income tax increase, therefore, it is assumed that it is in it. In addition they will be raising corporate taxes.

Sat, 2014-06-07 15:12

#100

mark_alfred

Rokossovsky wrote:

Unionist wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

That's true. I do feel the NDP budget is too sparse in details. Still, that they will raise corporate taxes while the others won't is sufficient for me.

And even though you criticize the Liberal budget for not raising personal taxes enough - while the NDP's proposed increase is apparently 0%?

That is false. The ONDP have stated quite clearly that the framework of their program is the Liberal budget, with additions and subtractions. They do not say they are not going to institute this income tax increase, therefore, it is assumed that it is in it. In addition they will be raising corporate taxes.

And it is precisely because of their willingness to raise corporate taxes that:

NDP platform wrote:

We will balance Ontario’s books by 2017-18 with
significantly more fiscal space than the Liberal plan.

Our plan will provide an additional fiscal cushion of
over $700 million annually.

The additional $700 million comes from the 1% raise in corporate taxes. This revenue can be used for services, rather than maintaining the Wynne Liberal "deepest freeze in two decades" in program spending since Harris was in power. Clearly the NDP is the better option. And clearly the Liberals are unreliable anyway.

Sat, 2014-06-07 22:35

#101

Unionist

How about answering a simple question, mark_alfred. How can you slam the Liberals for not promising to raise personal income tax enough, when the NDP has not proposed raising it at all?

Or is there a new secret NDP program we haven't seen yet, like the one they vapourized on May 22?

Is it that difficult to simply retract your comment and carry on with the legitimate real issues of corporate income tax and privatization?

Saying "the Liberals are unreliable anyway" is a good reason to ignore their entire platform, because they're just liars. You can't have it both ways - criticize the parts that aren't good enough (even though they're better than Horwath's cowardly silence), and say they're lying about the good parts. That's just not very credible.

Ontario Federation of Labour calls for adoption of "most progressive budget" in years

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