A Malaysian passenger aircraft crashed in Ukraine with AFAIK, all 290 passengers and crew lost. There was one Canadian aboard.
Both the Ukrainian regime in Kiev and the DPR (federalists) are blaming each other for shooting down the aircraft.
PM Harper has all but blamed the "Rooskies".
Both The Guardian and RT have chronology pages with all the details from their points of view.
One article I read yesterday noted that the returning aircraft of Russian President Putin was in the same echelon (same spot) as the downed Malaysian airliner about an hour or two before the crash. The planes look much the same and even the colours of the Malay aircraft are much the same as the Russian colours of the President's plane.
I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity."The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical", the source added.
The Malaysian airliner was expected to enter Russian airspace at around 17:20 local time.
If this was a failed attempt to murder the Russian President, then God help us all. Such an incident would be like those in Sarajevo in 1914 with similar horrific consequences.
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The Russian military is claiming they had detected radiation from the radar of a battery of BUK anti-aircraft guns under control of the Ukrainian regime.
The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30km south of Donetsk],” the ministry said in a statement.
The ministry said the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery deployed in the region, which was at a firing distance from the plane’s flight path.
By the way, if it turns out that the Ukrainian regime, deliberately or not, shot down this aircraft then it wouldn't be the first time with this military. In 2001 the Ukrainian miltary belatedly admitted shooting down another civilian aircraft and killing all 78 passengers and crew aboard.
except of course the pro-Russian rebels were celebrating the shooting down of a airplane until it proved to be the malaysian one then they deleted all their internet posts
Not to mention it wouldnt be the first time Russians shot down a civilian jet either. Anyone remember the Korean Airlines plane shot down?
Different people have different ideas about who is responsible:
except of course the pro-Russian rebels were celebrating the shooting down of a airplane until it proved to be the malaysian one then they deleted all their internet posts
Not quite, that's a falsehood. There were claims about a different sort of aircraft, at a much lower elevation. Furthermore, they are ethnic Russians but they are still Ukrainians by nationality, though the regime in Kiev is trying to ethnically cleanse them.
In any case, is there any doubt about who controls the air with their merciless and barbaric atrocities against civilians over the past weeks? First NATO bombed Belgrade and threw in the toilet all those sacred promises that Germany would never bomb European targets ever again (1999). Now it is the Ukrainian NATO puppet regime slaughtering their own civilians.
When the NATO war criminals attacked Libya and destroyed that country, they used the excuse that the Libyan regime was killing their own civilans and must be stopped. Now that their own puppet regime is slaughtering civilians, they are silent.
The claims and counter-claims are fast and furious. The US President is blaming Russia while claiming the need for an "objective" investigation. Russian media is quoting the Ukrainian Interior Minister in noting that
... Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.“After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized,” he added.
Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk.
Militias do not have BUK missile system says Ukrainian Minister
In the given war situation it doesn't seem unlikely that evidence will simply be fabricated to get the desired conclusions.
N beltov/Ikosmos I simply do not believe either side but having said that, the pro russian rebels have no airplanes so why would the Ukranians shoot down anything?
There are reports that Air Defence systems have been seen redeploying from eastern Ukraine into Russia.
I am speculating that after tensions in the area will decrease because of all the negative public relations images this incident has cause.
No single party wants to be seen all the mass murders of civilians.
@Webgear: is this what you're talking about?
Or is it something else?
From the Guardian: Cover-up: Ukraine rebels destroying all links to MH17 air atrocity http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/separatist-links-malaysia-airlines-mh17-removed
@Webgear: is this what you're talking about?
Or is it something else?
I saw a report about smaller tactical platforms moving not the BUK.
And armed pro-Russian rebels stopping investigators from looking into the crash as per CNN
I saw a report about smaller tactical platforms moving not the BUK.
Check out my link above... there's video of a BUK moving down the road in the area of the shoot down. (you can tell it's a BUK).
The reporting mentioned SA-13s and ZSU 23-4s were being moved. However you know the media's accuracy on reporting military equipement, not sure how truthful it is.
I simply do not believe either side but having said that, the pro russian rebels have no airplanes so why would the Ukranians shoot down anything?
Another good question or two:
Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
Ten questions from a Russian official ...
TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
number 9 is particularly relevant to the investigators. Are they tampering with the evidence? Why?
Maybe someone should ask him one question; why are the separatists restricting the investigation team from the crash site?
I too think the evil slapheads attempted a shoot-down of Putin's plane and now we have this awful tragedy. I also have no doubt that the same who told us Hamas had to be destroyed, or Gaddafi was killing his own people, Assad was gassing his own, and President Yanukovych was shooting down his own in Maidan square, will continue to lie as they have done all along in this and alas as always in such things many will believe...
This shoot-down will be a prominent story in the ongoing western takeover project of Ukraine and should be followed to its conclusion. I'll post anything of interest I find in the Ukraine thread, but the incident etc deserves its own thread as well. Glad to see it and look forward to more. Hope it continues even if/when the mainstream abandons it...
This shoot-down will be a prominent story in the ongoing western takeover project of Ukraine and should be followed to its conclusion. I'll post anything of interest I find in the Ukraine thread, but the incident etc deserves its own thread as well. Glad to see it and look forward to more. Hope it continues even if/when the mainstream abandons it...
Back in 2008, the last time I posted much here, I followed the atrocities of the Saakashvili Georgian regime carefully in the bombing campaign against the civilians and Russian military observers that August in South Ossetia. The level of Russophobic nonsense was very high. Perhaps that was the real start of Cold War 2.
Of course, once that tie-chewing war criminal got the military thrashing so richly deserved, and the Russians wisely left it to Georgians to settle accounts with the butcher of Tbilisi, interest waned in the west and here on babble as well. (BTW, then Russian President Dmitri Medvedev never got over the horrors of those days & said so himself)
Interest particularly waned when the Georgian government issued an arrest warrant for Saakashvili. But he was, by then, back in the USA and living the life of a dictator war criminal on parole. Needless to say, the USA ignored the arrest warrant. Saakashvili, after all, is still useful as an attack dog and for fluff pieces for the WSJ and other publications of "record".
My prediction: the current Ukrainian President will also leave office in disgrace, having bombed his own citizens and killed hundreds, including civilians and children, and who knows what else.
But by then there will be little interest in the facts and another dirty false flag operation will attract the attention of the powerful corporate interests in the west and their useful idiots.
If there was no war of ethnic cleansing in eastern Ukraine this tragedy never would have happened. And I rather think that instead of trying to prevent such a thing from happening again, the NATO countries and their puppet regime in Kiev will do all in their power to blame either the DPR and other federalists or the "Rooskies" whatever the facts are, and the truth may never be known for some time if at all.
They really seem to want WW3.
Why is there is always this assumption on the forums that the Russians have never carried out these "false flag" operations just like NATO does?
It was well established that the Russians were overly well prepared for the South Ossetia War if you care to go back and look at those threads.
I too think the evil slapheads attempted a shoot-down of Putin's plane and now we have this awful tragedy.
MH17 amps up 'he said, she said' in Russian and Ukrainian media (+video)
There have also been outlandish claims, including that Ukrainian forces shot down the plane because they thought it belonged to Mr. Putin. According to several Russian-language news sources, rebel commander and Russian citizen Igor Girkin (who goes by the nom de guerre Strelkov) alleged that several of the bodies found at the crash site appeared to have been dead for several days, implying that Ukraine was trying to create a set-up and blame Russia.
Well all I can say is put some vodka in that cool-aid NDPP, it tastes better. I'll see you on the other side.
Now Putin's thugs are apparently destroying evidence that they shot down the plane, are not letting anyone else near the wreckage and are stealing valuables from the bodies of the dead...anyone who seriously thinks the Russian backed terrorists didn't do this must also think the earth is flat. I wonder if there is any way to bring Putin the fascist dictator before the International Court of Justice and have him charged with 298 counts of murder.
I wonder if there is any way to bring Putin the fascist dictator before the International Court of Justice and have him charged with 298 counts of murder.
This will happen at about the same time that Dubya, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al are charged with the hundreds of thousands of murders they committed in Iraq.
Ideally they could all be placed in the same cell...or else they could each get the Ceaucescu treatment
Without radar, missile may not have identified jet
As I was saying all along....
But to function correctly, an SA-11 launcher, also known as a Buk, is supposed to be connected to a central radar command — as opposed to acting alone — to be certain of exactly what kind of aircraft it is shooting at.
From the information that has come to light so far, the rebels don't appear to have such systems, said Pavel Felgenhauer, a respected defense columnist for Novaya Gazeta, a Moscow-based newspaper known for its critical coverage of Russian affairs.
"They could easily make a tragic mistake and shoot down a passenger plane when indeed they wanted to shoot down a Ukrainian transport plane," he said.
This shoot down was a terrible mistake and I can understand that. What gets me is all the lying as the evidence is mounting more and more. The separatists were using the BUK. It's the only way they could have shot down the last transport they hit at 21,000 feet a few days before this happened.
The bottom line seems to be this: using just the launcher radar the separatist fired on the airliner thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane trying to avoid fire by flying higher. All they saw was a radar blip.
On Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin deflected questions about who may have fired the missile as he called for an international investigation. But he made a telling point when he noted that the “tragedy would not have happened if military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine.”
Those likely to agree with that statement include German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande who, during a lengthy four-way conference call with Poroshenko on June 30, tried desperately to get him to prolong the ceasefire. Only the U.S. voiced support for Poroshenko’s decision to spurn that initiative and order Ukrainian forces into a major offensive in the east.
Without radar, missile may not have identified jet
As I was saying all along....
But to function correctly, an SA-11 launcher, also known as a Buk, is supposed to be connected to a central radar command — as opposed to acting alone — to be certain of exactly what kind of aircraft it is shooting at.
From the information that has come to light so far, the rebels don't appear to have such systems, said Pavel Felgenhauer, a respected defense columnist for Novaya Gazeta, a Moscow-based newspaper known for its critical coverage of Russian affairs.
"They could easily make a tragic mistake and shoot down a passenger plane when indeed they wanted to shoot down a Ukrainian transport plane," he said.
This shoot down was a terrible mistake and I can understand that. What gets me is all the lying as the evidence is mounting more and more. The separatists were using the BUK. It's the only way they could have shot down the last transport they hit at 21,000 feet a few days before this happened.
The bottom line seems to be this: using just the launcher radar the separatist fired on the airliner thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane trying to avoid fire by flying higher. All they saw was a radar blip.
Can you tell me why the rebels would fire without identifying its target? If the plane that was shot down flew in an area where other commercial jets also travelled via, wouldn’t that mean all the commercial jets in the area would be shot down by the rebels as well? Do you think they are really that stupid?
Yes, they really are that stupid. We are not dealing with a trained military. we are dealing with a bunch thugs and mafia hitmen working as mercenaries for Putin, who's knowledge of military equipment can be summed up as "gee i wonder what this button is for". They probably spent the morning guzzling vodka and then saw something in the sky and thought - "let's do some target practice"
so I wonder why it took them so long to shoot down a commerical jet? if they were ready to fire missile at anything in the sky
it was only after the crash that The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) urged airlines on Friday to avoid flying over eastern Ukraine following the downing of a Malaysia Airlines flight in the region..
so before the crash, there must be dozens of planes flying in the area all day long
Apparently most heeded the warnings to avoid flying over that area
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-changing-course-storms...
Indeed, I learned something new. The flight changed course because of storms according to the article
Iran Air Flight 655
Double post
Anything from rt.com should be ignored. It's Putin's propaganda news agency that is the successor to Pravda. It's only worth reading for comic relief.
Korean Airlines 007. And Korean Airlines 902.
*Malaysian Airlines MH17 Plane Crash in Ukraine - LIVE UPDATES*(and vid)
http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/
22:25GMT - Leadership of the Dontetsk Republic guarantees the safety of international experts at the Boeing crash site, if Kiev authorities conclude a ceasefire agreement, Deputy PM Andrei Purgin of DPR has announced.
'We declare that we will guarantee the safety of international experts on the scene at the conclusion and ceasefire agreement with Kiev. We invite Kiev to immediately conclude such an agreement with the DPR, at least for the duration of the specialists visit to the crash site,' Purgin said, Ria Novosti reports.
Kiev's forces continue, their so-called 'anti-terrorist operations', hindering access to the crash site, he said. Purgin claims that Ukrainian Forces are keeping up the pace of the assault to ensure evidence doesn't emerge to implicate Kiev in shooting down the passenger jet..."
Flight MH17 - Kiev Flash Mobs Final False Flag - by Andrew MacKillop
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/19/flight-mh17-kiev-flash- mobs-final-false-flag/
"The downing of Flight MH17 means that Washington's gang are on the war path again. Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John McCain and even Hillary Clinton - are all insisting that the West has to 'get tougher' with Russia.
Was this the plan all along?
As any keen observer of the event will tell you, nothing about Washington's version of events adds up."
Ukraine, Gaza and Media Manipulation
http://cannonfire.blogspot.ca/2014/07/ukraine-gaza-and-media-manipulatio...
"Whenever the Ukrainian civil war heats up, the manipulation of our media becomes as painfully obvious as a missing ear..."
Or is it about GAS ?
“While the human politics of the crisis in Ukraine garner all the headlines, it is the gas politics that in many ways lies at the heart of the conflict.”
- Eric Draitser
"The Washington has a very small window to draw Putin into the fray, which is why we should expect another false flag incident on a much larger scale than the fire in Odessa. Washington is going to have to do something really big and make it look like it was Moscow’s doing." This article was written on July 9! Can you believe it?
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/09/pushing-ukraine-to-the-brink/
Putin should be made accountable for the misuse of russian weapons from thugs in Ukraine.
The United States is the largest single supplier of military equipment to Israel
I wonder if Obama should also be made accountable to the deaths in Gaza ?
Do you think they are really that stupid?
No, they are not stupid at all... as a matter of fact the people whom were operating that weapons system had to be quit smart. The problem was they were not that well trained or (more important in my opinion) under control of a more modern air defense fire control system. They just made a terrible mistake in identifying the target that their radar had locked on to.
They were not an integrated air defense system that had civil aviation integrated into it (like Russia and Ukraine armies would have) so they could identify and "squawk" with potential targets by electronic signal.
They were not tracking civil airline flights, they were duck hunting for a lack of better word, with a weapons system they were not suppose to have (that could shoot that high). Add to that they were coming off a successful shot down a few days ago you can't blame them for taking the shot.
The sticky part is why (and how) did thye get that system operational.
huh....CIA???????
What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner? - by Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-p...
"Washington's propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing the facts that we do have.
One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.
As Washington, Kiev and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media.
We will have to figure it out for ourselves..."
As written by Gwynne Dyer and tweeted by Judy Rebick..... It’s pretty obvious who shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17
Conspiracy fantasists and Putin apologists aside, sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, - it's actually just a duck.
[...] sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, - it's actually just a duck.
No way. Ducks don't have BUKs.
That article seems right. This was my first reaction. There is no way that Russian or Ukrainian authorities would make such a mistake-- it had to be the rebel forces. Technology to shoot down a plane provided to people without the training and/or ability to recognize what they were shooting at or the restraint to realize it was not a target worth risking.
Conspiracy theories will be rampant as people want a more convenient explanation. And they will torture the facts but the reality is there is no other realistic explanation.
In my view there are lessons here that will get lost. Without taking sides on the political issues of Ukraine, some conclusions should be drawn and some avoided. To start, the decision to shoot at that moment was not made by a large number of people and certainly the target was not intended to be a civilian plane. So demonizing all the rebels ought to be a nonstarter, but it won't be.
Certainly there are arguments to place a great deal of responsibility for the conflict on all sides as it appears to have been handled badly all round. Anger and aggression have run ahead of better motivations. The lesson that should be taken that never is -- would be that wars cause innocent death and ought to be avoided wherever possible. This conflict should not have resulted in force of arms and that decision to use violence is the most direct cause of these deaths.
Another lesson speaks to the support the rebels are getting. Responsibility must be considered for the provision of military equipment that may be used to such horrific affect because of a lack of additional technology or training. Even if there is great sympathy for one side ion a conflict it is not helpful for outsiders to provide equipment that can escalate in the ways we have seen here. This lesson applies to all countries who sell or provide arms including Russia but also including Canada the US, France, and many others. The provision of military support from Canada or other western countries to the Ukrainian government should also avoided.
Another point worth remembering-- both the Russian AND the Ukrainian military had BUKs. I understand that some Ukrainian equipment has fallen to the rebels.
I don't think it is reasonable to say that the rebels could not have this technology nor would it be accurate to suggest that the only possible source is Russian.
Investigations may eventually explain.
[...] sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, - it's actually just a duck.
No way. Ducks don't have BUKs.
I hear these ones do. The only question is where did they come from. I have heard that substantial amounts of Ukrainian equipment has in fact fallen to the rebels. And of course there is speculation about what exactly has been supplied by Russia. They may argue this one for years since they both have the equipment.
Sean, - don't take Unionist too seriously at all times. He is strongly o-pun-ionated.
Like the puns actually...
