Malaysian plane crash

599 posts / 0 new

Topic locked

Sun, 2014-07-20 15:38

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Donetsk Rebels and Russian Intelligence

Quote:
Nevertheless, even if the shootdown was entirely the work of Donetsk locals, self-styled Cossacks with an itchy trigger finger and an excess of vodka, it bears noting that the pseudo-state there is in fact under the tight control of the Kremlin, in particular of its powerful intelligence agencies, what the Russians call the "special services." The premier of the "Donetsk People's Republic" (DNR) is Aleksandr Boroday, a Russian citizen who, Pravda reported back in 2002, is a member of the special services, specifically the powerful Federal Security Service (FSB).* Boroday was appointed an FSB major-general at the tender age of thirty-five. In the FSB, Boroday worked in the sensitive "political field" and has been tied to Russian nationalist causes. Right now he is busy keeping investigators away from the MH17 crash site.

Wow, the Donetsk People's Republic sure has allot of Russian citizens from Russia at the top instead of local Ukrainians.

Sun, 2014-07-20 15:45

#53

kropotkin1951

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Donetsk Rebels and Russian Intelligence
Quote:

Nevertheless, even if the shootdown was entirely the work of Donetsk locals, self-styled Cossacks with an itchy trigger finger and an excess of vodka, it bears noting that the pseudo-state there is in fact under the tight control of the Kremlin, in particular of its powerful intelligence agencies, what the Russians call the "special services." The premier of the "Donetsk People's Republic" (DNR) is Aleksandr Boroday, a Russian citizen who, Pravda reported back in 2002, is a member of the special services, specifically the powerful Federal Security Service (FSB).* Boroday was appointed an FSB major-general at the tender age of thirty-five. In the FSB, Boroday worked in the sensitive "political field" and has been tied to Russian nationalist causes. Right now he is busy keeping investigators away from the MH17 crash site.

Wow, the Donetsk People's Republic sure has allot of Russian citizens from Russia at the top instead of local Ukrainians.

Great source for this information.

Quote:

John R. Schindler is professor of national security affairs at the U.S. Naval War College, where he’s been since 2005, and where he teaches courses on security, strategy, intelligence, terrorism, and occasionally military history. Before joining the NWC faculty, he spent nearly a decade with the National Security Agency as an intelligence analyst and counterintelligence officer. There’s not much he can say about that, except that he worked problems in Eastern Europe and the Middle East with a counterespionage flavor, and he collaborated closely with other government agencies who would probably prefer he didn’t mention them. He’s also served as an officer specializing in cryptology (now called information warfare for no particular reason) in the U.S. Navy Reserve.

Sun, 2014-07-20 15:50

#54

kropotkin1951

Sun, 2014-07-20 15:57

#55

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

How Social Sleuthing Uncovered Evidence of Surface-to-Air Missile Systems in Eastern Ukraine

Quote:
As images and videos purporting to show the missile system in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine began to flood in, Storyful, alongside other journalists and social media experts in our Open Newsroom and elsewhere, worked to verify this information and determine the veracity of these claims. From the images and videos, we were able to determine that members of the Donetsk People's Republic separatist militia, at the very least, did appear to have access to an anti-aircraft system capable of an attack like the one carried out on MH17.

There's a slide that shows where the camera was in relation to the BUK driving down the road.

Sun, 2014-07-20 16:21

#56

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Oh and flight MH17 was following an authorized flight route that is the main route between Europe and Asia. There was a Ukrainian civil aviation ban of 32,000 feet and below over the eastern area of Ukraine, MH17 was at 33,000 feet. I'd imagine the aviation authorities thought the pro-separatists didn't have and weapons that could shot that high so they still allowed flights over the area (above 32.000 feet). They were wrong and the shot down of a Ukrainian transport plane at 21,000 feet a few days before the airliner was brought down should have been an indicator the flight ban should have been modified.

Sun, 2014-07-20 17:08

#57

sherpa-finn

For anyone curious, you can check the air traffic today over Ukraine (or anywhere else for that matter) at this site.

http://www.flightradar24.com/#46.45,39.94/4?&_suid=1405890029961044662563008974404

ETA: even the flights between Moscow and Crimea are doing a huge loop to avoid eastern Ukraine.

Sun, 2014-07-20 19:24

#58

NDPP

Putin: Task Force at Malaysia MH17 Crash Site Not Enough, Full Scale Team of Intl Experts Needed (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/174268-ukraine-mh17-crash-putin/

"The tragic Malaysian MH17 flight crash must not be politicised and the international experts on the scene should be able to carry out their work in complete safety, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

'There are already representatives of Donetsk and Lugansk working there, as well as representatives of the emergencies ministry of Ukraine and others. But this is not enough,' Putin said officially commenting on the tragic event on Sunday.

'This task force is not enough,' Putin emphasized. 'We need more, we need a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of ICAO, the relevant international commission. In the meantime, nobody shall and has no right to use this tragedy to achieve their 'narrowly selfish' political goals,' Putin said..."

MH17 Crash: Malayan PM Najib Razak Lashes Out Over Geopolitical Chess Game

http://nsnbc.me/2014/07/20/mh17-crash-malaysian-pm-najib-razak-lashes-ou...

"The Malaysian PM reiterated that those who are responsible for the crash must be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. Najib lashed out at anyone responsible for the geopolitical chess game which some countries are playing, that has resulted in innocent Malaysians being victims, Najib said.

'This is what happens when there is a conflict, whatever conflict that cannot be resolved through negotiations, with peace. In the end who becomes the victim?"

Mon, 2014-07-21 00:27

#59

ikosmos

Stockholm wrote:

Now Putin's thugs are apparently destroying evidence that they shot down the plane, are not letting anyone else near the wreckage and are stealing valuables from the bodies of the dead...

Yeah, I read this fabrication as well. Turns out the OSCE people, who have no authority to investigate by the way, were too stupid not to step in front of Ukrainian machine gun nests and had to be saved from themselves by the dastardly "rebels". Morons.

Not that useful idiots won't regurgitate the nonsense anyway.

I see also, that the "rebels" have saved the black boxes and are keeping them far away from the murderous Ukrainian fascist thugs and are waiting for the investigators to get off their asses and come to the crash site. Bout bloody time, too. What do they think the locals are going to do? Leave the rotting bodies, killing by the barbarous Ukrainian butchers of children, in their kitchens and gardens until the investigators decide to saunter around and have a look? HTFG!

Let's just hope the Ukrainian military thugs and the fascist militias they support will cease fire long enough for the investigators to do their job. I wouldn't be surprised if they opened fire "by accident" on the investigators and blamed it on the "rebels" or the "Moskals" (bigotted term for Russians used in those parts).

Mon, 2014-07-21 01:06

#60

ikosmos

Webgear wrote:

Why is there is always this assumption on the forums that the Russians have never carried out these "false flag" operations just like NATO does?

It was well established that the Russians were overly well prepared for the South Ossetia War if you care to go back and look at those threads.

Your second point is a non sequitor: being ready for an attack, especially when it had been preceded by other attacks, just seems prudent. Don't forget it wasn't just South Ossetian civilians that were bombed by Saakashvili; they also bombed and killed Russian observers when they bombed Tskinvali.

But the first point is worth looking at. A false flag would be an operation to blame some state or non-state actor for foreign policy purposes, to benefit business interests (such as sale of arms to eastern european countries by the USA), and so on.

So, what foreign policy purpose would the Russians (of today I mean, this is not the old Soviet regime that ought to have higher standards and be critiqued more rigorously) achieve by a false flag? Can we think of an example?

Frankly, it seems like it is only the (US) Empire that routinely does the sort of blaming others. How many countries since the fall of the Soviet Union has Russia overthrown with an invasion, etc. ? How many for NATO under US "leadership" ?

The latter is a very long list. The former ... not so much. It's true that the Russians have their regional interests, and want to be out from under US dictat ... but that is quite different from these other sorts of foreign policy goals.

There is only one Empire today. We all know who it is. And Canada is in a military alliance with that Empire.

If you have an idea for a likely candidate of a "false flag" by Russia, even if its not compelling, i'd be interested. In this current case, the US would benefit from blaming Russia, selling more arms to eastern europe and Ukraine itself, more easily establish neo-liberal regime in all of Ukraine, etc. Why would the Russians do a"false flag" here? They know very well the kind of current propaganda campaign they can expect. In the information war, clearly, the USA has a big lead and the Russians can barely keep up, even with some outstanding victories, the presence of a refugee like Ed Snowden, Putin's brilliant coup to save Syria from an Iraqi-fate, etc.

Mon, 2014-07-21 01:13

#61

ikosmos

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

That article seems right. This was my first reaction. There is no way that Russian or Ukrainian authorities would make such a mistake-- it had to be the rebel forces.

Sounds plausible .. until we remember that in 2001 the Ukrainian regime shot down a Russian passenger jet, killing all 78 passengers and crew aboard, and only belatedly admitted it was their doing, "a mistake", after being exposed by irrefutable evidence the Russians provided.

See here ...

Ukraine admits it shot down Russian airliner.

Mon, 2014-07-21 01:22

#62

ikosmos

Stockholm wrote:
Yes, they really are that stupid. We are not dealing with a trained military. we are dealing with a bunch thugs and mafia hitmen working as mercenaries for Putin, who's knowledge of military equipment can be summed up as "gee i wonder what this button is for". They probably spent the morning guzzling vodka and then saw something in the sky and thought - "let's do some target practice"

This sort of ignorant comment is instructive. There seems to be general agreement that if the airliner was hit by ground to air missiles, then it was probably of the BUK variety. These systems take a great deal of training to operate. You can't simply "push a button" and expect to down an aircraft travelling at 800 kph (around 500 mph) with a very narrow window of "opportunity" before the aircraft is out of range.

So the caricature of vodka-swilling thugs is so dumb to be amusing, but really doesn't hold water.

Nice to see you haven't progressed much, Stock. Been swilling a bit yourself, have you?

Mon, 2014-07-21 08:59

#63

MegB

Stockholm wrote:

Yes, they really are that stupid. We are not dealing with a trained military. we are dealing with a bunch thugs and mafia hitmen working as mercenaries for Putin, who's knowledge of military equipment can be summed up as "gee i wonder what this button is for". They probably spent the morning guzzling vodka and then saw something in the sky and thought - "let's do some target practice"

Cultural slur. Plenty of factual statements you can make without this kind of thing.

Mon, 2014-07-21 09:43

#64

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

ikosmos wrote:

I see also, that the "rebels" have saved the black boxes and are keeping them far away from the murderous Ukrainian fascist thugs and are waiting for the investigators to get off their asses and come to the crash site. Bout bloody time, too. What do they think the locals are going to do? Leave the rotting bodies, killing by the barbarous Ukrainian butchers of children, in their kitchens and gardens until the investigators decide to saunter around and have a look? HTFG!

Not that I need to get into your business here Rebecca but there are plenty of cultural slurs generalizing Ukrainians as fascist Nazi thugs being flung around here as well. Above is just one recent example. You might want to also tighten up on that, it's only fair.

Mon, 2014-07-21 09:54

#65

Slumberjack

I think the only people who really benefit from all of the conflagrations that are set in motion around the world, including in Ukraine, are in fact thugs and fascists and their loyal followings.

Mon, 2014-07-21 13:48

#66

ikosmos

In contrast to the smug claims by the Obama regime and its quislings in Ottawa, based on "intelligence" and other fabrications that cannot and will not be confirmed, the evidence really IS starting to pile up. And not in a good way for the Ukrainian puppet regime in Kiev.

ONE.

RT has a story noting claims of a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet accompanying the civilian airliner just before it went down. There are plenty of questions about what this jet was doing in a civilian flight path. Kiev's claims about "no military aircraft operated over Donetsk on July 17th" are turning out to be false. Why was a fighter jet tracking a civilian airliner shortly before it was shot down?

TWO.

According to the Russian Defence Ministry, a US spy satellite was flying over eastern Ukraine at the same time as the Malaysian airliner went down. They are encouraging the US to "share" their information from this satellite.

THREE.

This is the big one. Russian General Kartopolov has shown photographs of BUK missile launchers and radar arrangments on territory controlled by the Ukrainian military just before the Malaysian airliner went down. But at the time of the tragedy, the equipment was moved by the Ukrainian authorities to territory controlled by local militias.

Why did the missile system "appear" in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe? This hints at a "false flag" operation to blame or discredit the locals.

Mon, 2014-07-21 13:56

#67

Stockholm

Can some one explain why on a supposedly progressive and "anti-imperialist" online community like rabble - there seems to be this sub-sub-set of people who are going berzerk trying to be defenders and apologists for a fascist, imperialist dictatorship - namely Russia?

There is nothing , I repeat NOTHING, NADA even remotely progressive or "anti-imperialist" about Putin neo-Tsarist reactionary and expansionist regime in Moscow. Is it that some 50 and 60-something communists are so used to be being pro-Russian in the days of Brezhnev that they can't get out of the old 70s and 80s groove of "Russia good, US bad" - even though since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has now been transformed into a rabidly rightwing dictatorship led by a man with no redeeming features whatsoever.

Mon, 2014-07-21 14:05

#68

ikosmos

Quote:
UK broadcaster Sky News has issued an apology after one of its presenters was filmed rummaging through the luggage surrounding the downed MH17. During a broadcast, presenter Colin Brazier searched through personal belongings and picked up a set of keys before saying: “We shouldn’t really be doing this.”

The move triggered massive backlash on social media as people called for Brazier to be sacked.

"Colin immediately recognized that this was inappropriate and said so on air. Both Colin and Sky News apologize profusely for any offence caused,” a spokesperson from Sky News said in a statement.

Who was rummaging through the belongings of the victims again?

Family of MH17 victim condemn Sky News reporter filmed live on air rifling through dead passengers' possessions as Ofcom receive more than 100 complaints

Disgusting. Go ahead and justify that.

Mon, 2014-07-21 14:08

#69

6079_Smith_W

Rebecca West wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

Yes, they really are that stupid. We are not dealing with a trained military. we are dealing with a bunch thugs and mafia hitmen working as mercenaries for Putin, who's knowledge of military equipment can be summed up as "gee i wonder what this button is for". They probably spent the morning guzzling vodka and then saw something in the sky and thought - "let's do some target practice"

Cultural slur. Plenty of factual statements you can make without this kind of thing.

A slur, true.

On the other hand, the fellow put in charge of Crimea had well-established Russian mafia connections (as do many on both sides of this conflict). And I believe I posted some footage a month or so ago of the day after the takeover of the Donetsk Administration building. There were a lot of bottles and broken glass inside, some very obvious hungover interviews, and teatotalers standing out front of the building pouring out some of the remnants and urging people to use more restraint in the interests of the cause

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/vice-news/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukr...

But was it the locals who took that plane down? Somehow I doubt it. And in saying that I'm not pointing the finger directly at Putin either. Am I pointing it at him in terms of his setting this situation in motion? Absolutely.

Mon, 2014-07-21 14:10

#70

ikosmos

You would think that some Canadians, babblers included, would withhold judgment especially when the noisy claims of the sinister Conservative regime are so deafening. People who are actually critical of Harper and his Schutzstaffel abandon all critical distance and rush to agree with people whom they wouldn't appear in the same room with.

Mon, 2014-07-21 14:20

#71

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:
But was it the locals who took that plane down? Somehow I doubt it. And in saying that I'm not pointing the finger directly at Putin either. Am I pointing it at him in terms of his setting this situation in motion? Absolutely.

Putin is the one who, without directly blaming anyone for the disaster, was the first major leader to have noted that without the conflict this terrible incident never would have happened. It' pretty clear that he's exercised a lot more restraint than say, was exercised in South Ossetia when the Russian military was sent in very quickly to push the Saakashvili regime out of occupied South Ossetia and Abkhazia in 2008. Much of the delays of getting the investigation started have to do with the failure of the two sides to agree on a ceasefire. And it's crystal clear which side is doing the delaying .. the Kiev junta of Chocolate-istan.

Mon, 2014-07-21 14:28

#72

6079_Smith_W

What on earth are you talking about, ikosmos?

I mean, I know references to goosestepping and words that can be translated into German have become a boilerplate argument here; it's beyond Godwin.But what are you trying to say?

(edit)

Cross-posted. I was talking about the Nazi slur in your last post.

But Putin being restrained because of his suggestion that the Ukrainians caused all this? Don't make me laugh.

Though perhaps you have a point. It would be a bit of a chore to shoot them all in the face stepping out of an elevator, or slip polonium in their tea. So yes, relatively speaking he did show some restraint.

Mon, 2014-07-21 14:39

#73

swallow

Sherliza Zaini, 45, her Dutch husband and three children aged 8, 12 and 15 years
Ms Sherliza Zaini and her family were returning from a holiday in Amsterdam. They were supposed to transit at the Kuala Lumpur International en route to their home in Melbourne, Australia.

Lucie van Mens

Dr Lucie van Mens was an HIV researcher who had focused on HIV and Aids prevention since 1995.

Dr van Mens was on her way to the International Aids Conference in Melbourne, Australia

Philomene Tiernan

Sister Philomene Tiernan (left) was a Catholic nun and a teacher at eastern Sydney Catholic school Kincoppal-Rose Bay. She had just completed a sabbatical in Europe, was returning to her home in Kensington, Sydney.

Elaine Teoh, 27, and Emiel Mahler, 27

Former University of Melbourne student Elaine Teoh and her boyfriend, Dutch national Emiel Mahler, were headed to Kuala Lumpur for a wedding.

And on it goes.... [url=http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/south-east-asia/story/malaysia-air... are some of the faces.[/url]

Mon, 2014-07-21 14:42

#74

swallow

[b]Malaysian[/b] Md Ali Md Salim

Md Ali Md Salim, 30, was pursuing a psychology doctorate at the University of Amsterdam and was planning to finish next year.

Prior to take-off, he posted a 15-second video showing people packing bags into overhead compartments over an announcement telling passengers to switch their phones off.

The caption read: "Wish me luck, in the name of God", with a hashtag in Malaysian saying "My heart feels nervous".

Tambi Jiee, Ariza Ghazalee and family

An entire family of six returning home to Malaysia after three years in Kazakhstan are among the victims.

Head of the family, Tambi Jiee, 49, was keen to celebrate Hari Raya - the end of the Muslim fasting month - at home before reporting for work in a new posting.

His wife, Ariza Ghazalee, 47, was an avid social media user and before boarding the plane, she uploaded photos of the family's packed bags on the Internet.

Malaysian newspaper The Star reports they died alongside their children Mohd Afif, 19, Mohd Afzal, 17, Marsha Azmeena, 15, and Mohd Afruz, 13.

Facebook/Tambi JieeTambi Jiee and his family

[b]Dutch[/b] Tessa van der Sande

Tessa van der Sande, 27, was one of the Dutch nationals killed when Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crashed.

Amnesty International in Holland said on its Facebook page that she was with her parents and brother on their way to Indonesia.

Amnesty tweeted the following message in Dutch with a photo of Tessa: "Our dear colleague Tessa van der Sande was aboard # MH17. We sympathize with her boyfriend, family and friends."

[url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/faces-malaysian-airlines-flight-... faces of MH17[/url]

Mon, 2014-07-21 14:56

#75

Stockholm

ikosmos wrote:

You would think that some Canadians, babblers included, would withhold judgment especially when the noisy claims of the sinister Conservative regime are so deafening. People who are actually critical of Harper and his Schutzstaffel abandon all critical distance and rush to agree with people whom they wouldn't appear in the same room with.

I think that as much as we all dislike Harper and his party - comparing them to Hitler's SS is in bad taste and only serves to trivialize Naziism.

Mon, 2014-07-21 15:04

#76

DaveW

Stockhlom, best to ignore ikosmos/Plekhanov and his RT.com nonsense;

with Fidel gone, who at least had a sense of humour, he is the last active Soviet apologist. A museum piece. Send in the anthroplogists!

Mon, 2014-07-21 15:11

#77

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:
But Putin being restrained because of his suggestion that the Ukrainians caused all this? Don't make me laugh.

Try to read what I actually wrote. The Russian President claimed, correctly I think, that without this conflict and the associated ethnic cleansing going on, there would never have been a civilian airliner crashing in the middle of it. It was also a good comment in the sense that the sooner the two sides agreed to a ceasefire, the sooner the investigation could get going.

Quote:
It would be a bit of a chore to shoot them all in the face stepping out of an elevator, or slip polonium in their tea. So yes, relatively speaking he did show some restraint.

Putin is suffering domestically from not actiing more vigorously. Voters are seeing ethnic Russians being slaughtered by this murderous regime, hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing for their very lives into Russia, (with, of course, not a peep from the "objective" western press), schools, hospitals and residential areas being bombed, Israeli-style, and so on. Russian voters are understandably outraged and want to see something done about these ongoing Ukrainian war crimes.

Before the NATO countries bombed Libya into a failed state, they made loud, moralistic speeches about how that regime was "killing its own people". Of course, when the Ukrainian junta does that, there is silence. In fact, when protestors were burned to death in Odessa, the western media had the temerity to claim that the victims set themselves on fire.

If the evidence comes out, as I think it will, that the Ukrainian regime has, once again, shot down a civilian airliner, a sheepish and reluctant apology won't do anymore.

My prediction, that the Ukrainian President will have an arrest warrant in his name from his own country, like the tie-chewing war criminal Saakashvili, may just come true sooner rather than later.

[/quote]

Mon, 2014-07-21 15:17

#78

ikosmos

DaveW wrote:
... with Fidel gone, who at least had a sense of humour ...

So, you think I should have a sense of humour about such a horrific tragedy? How do you feel about the "reporters" rifling through the belonging of the victims? All in good fun?

Mon, 2014-07-21 15:25

#79

infracaninophile $infracaninophile's picture$

The fact the crash site has been severely compromised will make proper investigation difficult.

I don't know about "looting" ( a loaded word that may not be accurate, depending on the situation), but certainly civilians were at the crash site and going through passenger's belongings very early on. I followed a chain of links (beginning with pprune, the pilot's bulletin board) that lead to several videos posted by locals. Several showed people in summer civilian clothig going through toiletries, clothes and books etc., holding items up to the camera and exclaiming about them (obviously I could not understand what they were saying). It may not have been intentional disrespect to the dead; for all I know people came out to help but in the absence of trained personnel were as likely disrupting evidence as assisting. One young woman was going through a passport and holding up the picture (with identifying names etc.) of a beautiful young child. I hope this never made it to a TV station; it would be a horrible thing for family members to see.

This is the second major airline disaster involving Dutch nationals in 4 years where they will likely never receive a proper report on events. In May of 2010 an Afriqiya Airbus crashed on approach to Tripoli with about 80 Dutch passengers aboard who were returning from South Africa. All perished except one young boy who was thrown clear. Although that site was closely monitored and evidence gathered etc., a full report has never been released (the fall of the Gaddafi regime has provided an excuse).

The only good that can come out of these tragedies is, sometimes, information that leads to improved safety in the future. The shooting down of the KAL flight in the 80's led the Reagan administration to de-classify its GPS technology and the fall of the Soviet Union led the new Russian government to sell all kinds of aerial maps they had developed, which made possible the development of the Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System (invented by a Canadian, BTW). It has drastically reduced the incidence of planes flying into mountains as well as other types of CFIT crashes. The American Airlines runway overrun in Little Rock, among others, was a catalyst to developing EMAS, emergency material arresting system, that can stop a jumbo jet safely and without damage when it overruns a runway.

If we had one in T.O. on Pearson's runway that leads to the Etobicoke Creek the Air France mishap would never have occurred. EMAS has proven effective at several U.S. airports, esp. ones near water e.g. JFK.

Slightly OT, I guess, but without a proper and thorough investigation valuable lessons may not be learned from this tragedy.

Mon, 2014-07-21 15:29

#80

ikosmos

Why did Ukraine SU-25 fly same path as MH17, simultaneously at same altitude?' - Russian Military

GOTCHA!

Mon, 2014-07-21 16:47

#81

Webgear

ikosmos,

You realize that the SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft and not a fighter aircraft. It maximum ceiling is around 16,000 feet with a combat load. While it can be equipped with air to air missiles it would be difficult to hit the MH17 at 33,000.

Mon, 2014-07-21 17:03

#82

Webgear

ikosmos wrote:

But the first point is worth looking at. A false flag would be an operation to blame some state or non-state actor for foreign policy purposes, tobenefit business interests (such as sale of arms to eastern european countries by the USA), and so on.

So, what foreign policy purpose would the Russians (of today I mean, this is not the old Soviet regime that ought to have higher standards and be critiqued more rigorously) achieve by a false flag? Can we think of an example?

Frankly, it seems like it is only the (US) Empire that routinely does the sort of blaming others. How many countries since the fall of the Soviet Union has Russia overthrown with an invasion, etc. ? How many for NATO under US "leadership" ?

The latter is a very long list. The former ... not so much. It's true that the Russians have their regional interests, and want to be out from under US dictat ... but that is quite different from these other sorts of foreign policy goals.

There is only one Empire today. We all know who it is. And Canada is in a military alliance with that Empire.

If you have an idea for a likely candidate of a "false flag" by Russia, even if its not compelling, i'd be interested. In this current case, the US would benefit from blaming Russia, selling more arms to eastern europe and Ukraine itself, more easily establish neo-liberal regime in all of Ukraine, etc. Why would the Russians do a"false flag" here? They know very well the kind of current propaganda campaign they can expect. In the information war, clearly, the USA has a big lead and the Russians can barely keep up, even with some outstanding victories, the presence of a refugee like Ed Snowden, Putin's brilliant coup to save Syria from an Iraqi-fate, etc.

Why would Russia conducting a "Black Flag" operation like shooting down a civilian airliner?

Here are a few different scenarios that I could think of:

a. Attempting to blame the Ukraine Armed Forces (to build public opinion against the Ukraine government and thus build support for the revolutionaries)

b. Build public support of the Russia population (internal propaganda)

c. Attempt to bring Russia and NATO into a shooting war (Not sure why Russian Government would want that)?

It all really depends on the Russian Government's grand plan for the region is however I think that should be another thread.

As I stated earlier, I am not taking a side in conflict. I think both sides have very good points for fighting in this conflict.

Mon, 2014-07-21 17:07

#83

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Webgear wrote:

ikosmos,

You realize that the SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft and not a fighter aircraft. It maximum ceiling is around 16,000 feet with a combat load. While it can be equipped with air to air missiles it would be difficult to hit the MH17 at 33,000.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! No fair, you beat me too it.

You don't have shit, or mabe thats all you gott...

SU-25 Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 0.8 (975 km/h, 526 knots, 606 mph) at sea level

Combat range: 750 km (405 nmi, 466 mi) at sea level, 4,400 kg (9,700 lb) weapons and two external tanks

Service ceiling: 7,000 m[97] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons

Rate of climb: 58 m/s (11,400 ft/min)

Next...

Mon, 2014-07-21 17:34

#84

6079_Smith_W

@ ikosmos

What ethnic cleansing? Evidence, please.

(or more specifically, clarification as to what you are talking about)

And if you want to get revisionist about it we could lay the blame back at Mr. Putin's feet when he called President Yanukovich on the carpet last fall for daring to consider the European trade deal.

As for his call for a cessation of hostilities, you'll excuse me if I think that's a bit hypocritical at this point.

Mon, 2014-07-21 17:41

#85

ikosmos

Webgear wrote:

ikosmos,

You realize that the SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft and not a fighter aircraft. It maximum ceiling is around 16,000 feet with a combat load. While it can be equipped with air to air missiles it would be difficult to hit the MH17 at 33,000.

"Su-25 w/ R-73 VYMPEL missiles could fly at 6KM high, restart to climb, lock on, fire".

See The Russian Military Finally Speaks.

The article is very critical of the way the Russians have conducted themselves, being out-classed in the information war by the Empire. I tend to agree. But in this case, the facts should also speak for themselves, since the dead have no voice.

Mon, 2014-07-21 17:55

#86

ikosmos

Webgear wrote:
Why would Russia conducting a "Black Flag" operation like shooting down a civilian airliner?

Here are a few different scenarios that I could think of:

a. Attempting to blame the Ukraine Armed Forces (to build public opinion against the Ukraine government and thus build support for the revolutionaries)

b. Build public support of the Russia population (internal propaganda)

c. Attempt to bring Russia and NATO into a shooting war (Not sure why Russian Government would want that)?

There is already plenty of evidence to suggest that the Russians are being completely outclassed in the information war by the Empire, so I think a. is non-starter. Putin has shown a cynical distancing from the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine that is angering many in that part of the world. b ... is important, but I would suggest that Putin could have, and did not, address that by getting involved militarily to protect the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. He hasn't done that and has lost some public support because of it.

c... is just silly, as you yourself seem to think. If they want to dominate Ukraine economically, and have a safe buffer zone from the expanding NATO Empire, why go to war? OTOH, there are powerful US economic interests, along with neo-con political approaches, that are in favour of war and seem determined to achieve that goal. They are still stinging from the failure to bomb Syria, or Iran, (or both!) and are looking for fresh targets.

Quote:
It all really depends on the Russian Government's grand plan for the region is however I think that should be another thread.

Agreed.

Mon, 2014-07-21 17:58

#87

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos, ethnic cleansing means genocide. Evidence, please.

And this:

https://news.vice.com/video/exclusive-footage-of-mh17-aftermath-russian-...

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:03

#88

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ ikosmos

What ethnic cleansing? Evidence, please.

Sure.

Quote:
Russia’s United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has confirmed data indicating that around half a million Ukrainian citizens have fled to Russia from the conflict in the southeast of Ukraine. Many of the new arrivals are pinning their hopes on assistance from Russia’s voluntary resettlement program for compatriots abroad

Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - http://rbth.com/international/2014/07/09/un_confirms_flight_of_500000_ukrainian_refugees_to_russia_38063.html)

You can find as easily as I can the evidence regarding the bombing of civilians, schools, hospitals, residential neighborhoods, and so on. And if you are really keen, you could also dig up the quotes from Ukrainian officials, former Presidents like Timo.... , and so on, in which the agenda of ethnic cleansing is spelled out in black and white. The language is reminiscent of Israelis describing Palestinians as insects.

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:05

#89

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:
ethnic cleansing means genocide. Evidence, please.

A simple Google search gives me enough links to keep me busy for hours. Perhaps that is your intention.

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:10

#90

takeitslowly

How do we decide what is fact and what is propagenda when western media says one thing and russian state media says another? are there any news sites with independent and verifiable information?

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:11

#91

ikosmos

I want to thank swallow for giving a face to some of the victims of this terrible disaster on this thread.

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:15

#92

6079_Smith_W

No. My intention is to get you to consider thinking about the meaning of words before you post them.

Never mind that wider issues in Ukraine properly belong in the other thread, the fact is that the number of Dutch citizens killed in this single incident rivals the total death toll in the eastern Ukrainian conflict. And there is no evidence whatsoever of a ethnic-based campaign of murder, as you have implied.

This persistent bullshit about Nazis is bad enough. You want to talk genocide? Evidence, please.

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:16

#93

ikosmos

takeitslowly wrote:

How do we decide what is fact and what is propagenda when western media says one thing and russian state media says another? are there any news sites with independent and verifiable information?

Those who rush to judgment, especially political figures who have the public's attention, are very deserving of criticism here. They have a duty to calm the public, tell people to wait for the evidence, and see that they do everything in their power to see that no further harm is done.

Look at Harper and Obama. These are demagogues, pure and simple, placing blame from the first moment and providing no evidence to back up their claims.

In criminal matters we wait, because the process of determining the truth is important and is worth waiting for.

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:19

#94

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:
You want to talk genocide? Evidence, please.

Others have used the term "ethnic cleansing" in regard to what is happening in east Ukraine before i did. I really doubt your sincerity here, since these claims can be looked at, and examined, as easily by you as by me. But you won't look.

Why is that?

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:29

#95

Webgear

ikosmos wrote:

Webgear wrote:

ikosmos,

You realize that the SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft and not a fighter aircraft. It maximum ceiling is around 16,000 feet with a combat load. While it can be equipped with air to air missiles it would be difficult to hit the MH17 at 33,000.

"Su-25 w/ R-73 VYMPEL missiles could fly at 6KM high, restart to climb, lock on, fire".

See The Russian Military Finally Speaks.

The article is very critical of the way the Russians have conducted themselves, being out-classed in the information war by the Empire. I tend to agree. But in this case, the facts should also speak for themselves, since the dead have no voice.

I suppose the next set logical questions would be:

Does the SU-25 have the capabilities to shot down the MH17? (Does it have the proper radar and guidance systems?)

Does the Ukraine Air Force have R-73 Vympel missile in its inventory?

Why would you use a low level tactical aircraft to destroy a high attitude jetliner?

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:34

#96

6079_Smith_W

Actually, I have called others on false claims WRT Ukraine, in particular the Nazi one, but also false claims of genocide.

Thing is, if I was to mention it every time I'd probably be accused of spamming.

This deflection (and the other tactic of questioning my sincerity) doesn't at all address my point about you crying "genocide" with no evidence whatsoever.

Can we take this to some thread where you aren't thanking people for reminding us of the tragic deaths of almost 300 people? Like the Ukraine thread?

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:39

#97

Webgear

ikosmos wrote:

Webgear wrote:
Why would Russia conducting a "Black Flag" operation like shooting down a civilian airliner?

Here are a few different scenarios that I could think of:

a. Attempting to blame the Ukraine Armed Forces (to build public opinion against the Ukraine government and thus build support for the revolutionaries)

b. Build public support of the Russia population (internal propaganda)

c. Attempt to bring Russia and NATO into a shooting war (Not sure why Russian Government would want that)?

There is already plenty of evidence to suggest that the Russians are being completely outclassed in the information war by the Empire, so I think a. is non-starter. Putin has shown a cynical distancing from the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine that is angering many in that part of the world. b ... is important, but I would suggest that Putin could have, and did not, address that by getting involved militarily to protect the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. He hasn't done that and has lost some public support because of it.

c... is just silly, as you yourself seem to think. If they want to dominate Ukraine economically, and have a safe buffer zone from the expanding NATO Empire, why go to war? OTOH, there are powerful US economic interests, along with neo-con political approaches, that are in favour of war and seem determined to achieve that goal. They are still stinging from the failure to bomb Syria, or Iran, (or both!) and are looking for fresh targets.

Quote:
It all really depends on the Russian Government's grand plan for the region is however I think that should be another thread.

Agreed.

I agree with the comment about friendly buffer nations surrounding Russia. If I was in charge, I would want a solid perimeter also.

Sometime the information war on the home front is more important than the winning the war on the international stage.

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:45

#98

6079_Smith_W

Did you know?

http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

Mon, 2014-07-21 18:56

#99

Slumberjack

Poroshenko's so called 'exit corridor' statement seems like another way of telling the population of Eastern Ukraine to leave their homes and country while they still can. With the majority of the population there being collectively set upon by the regime in Kiev for their support of local defence forces, in lieu of negotiating the terms of their citizenship and clarifying their rights within a now western orientated Ukraine, it seems to me that what really matters is what the citizens of eastern Ukraine think of their new government so far, which they're in the process of doing.

Mon, 2014-07-21 19:12

#100

Slumberjack

The SU-25 can also carry Atoll and Aphid air to air missiles, both of which are produced by Vympel. The Aphid missile is in the Ukrainian inventory.

Mon, 2014-07-21 19:35

#101

NDPP

Ukrainian SU-25 Fighter Detected in Close Approach to MH17 Before Crash - Moscow

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

"The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defence Ministry said.

'We would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane.'

'The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10 km, according to its specifications ,he added. 'It's equipped with air to air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance of up to 12 km, up to 5km for sure.

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov stated.

At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine..."

Follow Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine LIVE UPDATES

Pages

Topic locked