Malaysian plane crash

6079_Smith_W wrote:

What bombing? And again, what genocide? Evidence.

Exactly.  If it isn't piped in on our corporate network newz channels, it doesn't exist.  We're much better off adopting your rule of thumb, which says that nothing is going on anywhere unless they say so.

Look at this... those damned fascists are even crashing their planes 25 km from the crash site in an attempt to destroy evidence and cover up their false flag operation:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/prorussia-rebels-shoot-down-two-ukraine-figh...

You might notice I haven't called RT liars for claiming that a Ukrainian bomb fell within the cease fire zone.

If it is zombie planes, crucified babies, or rolling the naked guy in snow because he tried to set himself on fire I reserve the right to express some skepticism. But you have to admit this is beyond thin gruel; it is nonexistent. If people here are making charges of fascism and genocide I expect them to ante up with at least something, otherwise they are doing nothing but passing on lies.

And once they have been called on it it is their responsibility to make sure they can back up their words.

If you want to talk about this, can we move it to the Ukraine thread? And once we're there, I'll remind you to read the news, because there was an inquiry into the Maidan shootings. The Odessa fire WAS investigated, and included calling in of international investigators .

A weapon of mass destruction is by definition chemical, radiological, biological or nuclear. What is the government spokesperson talking about?

What Genocide?

Israeli-like? How, because they have two legs and two arms? This is kind of like them being Nazi because they use words we can translate into German.

I don't want to be rude, but do you even read any of this material? Or care enough about what might have actually happened to look for corroborating sources or evidence behind the claims?

So what was that evidence again Bec that you said the Americans could produce?  Its great to get the hard evidence on any unsolved mystery. I would expect nothing more than this level of detail and proof from the Exceptional Empire.

Emphasis added by me

Quote:

The intelligence officials said the most likely explanation for the downing was that the rebels made a mistake. Separatists previously had shot down 12 Ukrainian military airplanes, the officials said.

The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.

But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.

Despite the fuzziness of some details, however, the intelligence officials said the case that the separatists were responsible for shooting down the plane was solid. Other scenarios — such as that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane — are implausible, they said. No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range.

From satellites, sensors and other intelligence gathering, officials said, they know where the missile originated — in separatist-held territory — and what its flight path was. But if they possess satellite or other imagery of the missile being fired, they did not release it Tuesday. A graphic they made public depicts their estimation of the missile's flight path with a green line. The jet's flight path was available from air traffic control data.

In the weeks before the plane was shot down, Russia had stepped up its arming and training of the separatists after the Ukrainian government won a string of battlefield victories. The working theory is that the SA-11 missile came from Russia, although the U.S. doesn't have proof of that, the officials said.

U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Samantha Powers said last week that "because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it is unlikely that the separatists could effectively operate the system without assistance from knowledgeable personnel. Thus, we cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel in operating the systems," she said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/malaysia-plane-crash_n_5611113....

Thanks for posting that. That pretty much reinforces what I've been saying all along... The Pro-Russian guys probably did it (by mistake) with a SA11 they
denied having.

No, actually I posted the story about the refusal too, if you want to go over to the other thread and read it. Not everything in this horrible situation involves hard-line partisans, which was my point in posting it in the first place. One of the things the team talked about was the kind of response they got from the crowds in Kiev and Lviv.

And you weren't sure what kind of bug it was; I told you. Why are you getting pissy about it?

And contempt for citizens? What are you talking about?

Strangely enough, this is not the first time the colorado potato beetle has been used in propaganda; but in the old days they adorned it with stars and stripes and called it the "American Bug":

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23929124

Catchfire wrote:

ikosmos and NDPP, if we could avoid quoting sources that call Ukrainian nationals "Ukies" that would be great. And link to them only with appropriate discretion and forewarning. Thanks.

 WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! 'UKIE' used here

http://www.ukraine.com/forums/open-board/3762-word-ukie.html

http://calgaryucc.org/events-calendar/e/562/

https://www.facebook.com/ukie.club

The term is used frequently by the overworked blogger Saker of the blogspot 'The Vineyard of the Saker', probably primarily to save his fingers from having to spell 'Ukrainian' incessantly over and over. His indispensible site is a MUST for anyone interested in learning the truth about what's really going on in Ukraine.  http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca  I think he also uses 'Rooskies' as well but I'm sure there'll be no complaints about that eh Smith?

"Ukie is a Canadian/Ukrainian term that is widely used....I'm very proud of the fact I am Ukrainian! My license plate reads UKIE 1..."

So, ikosmos, do you think your thread has turned out to be more sensitive to the victims than the Ukraine thread was?

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

That jet was shot down by an SA 11 BUK type weapon. 

That is totally beleivable.  However despite the specualtion neither you nor I know who supplied it and who fired it. The Russians blame the Ukranians and the US blames the Russians.  The idea that the Russians are to blame because they are supplying arms to the resistance forces has some basis in truth but only if you also say that the US is to blame for the civilians being murdered in their beds by the Ukranian armed forces and western backed militias.

Given you like to laugh at the absurdity of Russian propoganda I thought you might be able to laugh at the absurdity of American proganda but apparently not. 

swallow wrote:

So, ikosmos, do you think your thread has turned out to be more sensitive to the victims than the Ukraine thread was?

funny.   in a sad, sad way.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

but only if you also say that the US is to blame for the civilians being murdered in their beds by the Ukranian armed forces and western backed militias.

Are you saying it's the USA's fault the Ukrainian military is fighting to protect the integrity of Ukraine's national territory from a bunch of armed guys that want turn it over to Russia? 

Webgear wrote:

Don't Think Russian Rebels Can Learn How to Fire an Anti-Air Missile? Try This Simulator

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/dont-think-russian-rebels-can-learn-how...

Here's a morbid experiment. Try to see if you can figure out how to fire a Soviet anti-aircraft missile.

Turns out, it's not exactly easy. But it's not at all impossible for non-specialists given some experience and training. The U.S. believes Russia's proxy rebels in eastern Ukraine received training from Russian advisers on to operate a 9K37 Buk missile system that destroyed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on July 17.

Turns out, people are training themselves how to operate sophisticated surface-to-air missile systems. 

Too bad it wants you to dwnload a program to download the simulator.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

takeitslowly wrote:

How about Washington's role in the coup d'etat in Kiev ?

What specifically are you refering to here?

Of course you could add it is the same Washington that had no problem doing business with the Ukrainian government before Yanukovich decided to skip town.

 

 

And for its part, the Russian Foreign Ministry, also on Wednesday, painted the U.S. and its western allies in Europe as the hidden culprit for the explosion of violence this week. "What's going on [in Kiev] is the direct result of the policy of connivance on behalf of Western politicians and European structures," read a statement from the government of Vladimir Putin. "From the very start of the crisis, [the U.S. and E.U.] have turned a blind eye to the aggressive actions of radical forces in Ukraine, encouraging them to engage in escalation and provocations against the legitimate government."

Dmitry Peskov, a Putin spokesman, said Russia sees the violent behavior of the violent factions within the protest movement as a "coup attempt."

And though many agree that the turmoil in Ukraine has become a proxy political battle with Moscow on one side and Brussels and Washington on the other, Russian historian and Ukraine expert Stephen Cohen is not alone when he says that people in the West, specifically in the United States, are not being allowed to see the political tensions and violence in Ukraine in a full and proper context.

Appearing on Democracy Now! Thursday morning and asked to respond to President Obama's recommendation that Yanukovych withdraw his security forces and cede Kiev to the chaos that has gripped Independence Square, Cohen said Obama's approach to the situation was nothing short of shameful. Cohen said:

[Obama] is saying that the responsibility for restoring peace is on the Ukrainian government, and it should withdraw its security forces from the streets. But let me ask you, if in Washington people throwing Molotov cocktails are marching on Congress—and these people are headed for the Ukrainian Congress—if these people have barricaded entrance to the White House and are throwing rocks at the White House security guard, would President Obama withdraw his security forces? This is—this is—and do you know what this does? And let’s escape partisanship here. I mean, lives are at stake. This incites, these kinds of statement that Obama made. It rationalizes what the killers in the streets are doing. It gives them Western license, because he’s not saying to the people in the streets, "Stop this, stop shooting policemen, stop attacking government buildings, sit down and talk."

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/02/20/ukraine-chaos-and-violence-h...

In America no foreign country is allowed to try to ifluence your political choices.  The US admits to spending 5 billion dollars in the Ukraine on helping the people "chose" their leaders and geting them integrated into Europe. I suspect that some of that $5 billion was used to fund more than instructive manuals on how to put an X on a ballot.

Kiev Sabotaging Probe into Downed Malaysian Plane - Self-Defense Leader

http://rt.com/news/175136-kiev-sabotaging-investigation-plane/

"Kiev's authorities have been obstructing the international investigation into the crash of the Malaysian Airlines plane since day one, Deputy Prime Minister of the People's Republic of Donetsk Andrey Purgin told Russia-24 TV channel on Wednesday.

Purgin said it became clear that Kiev is sabotaging the probe two days after the incident, when international experts were not let into the area, as Kiev claimed it could not guarantee their safety. Kiev simply refused to accompany the international experts, Purgin stated. The Malaysian group of experts made it down to the crash alone with no security from Kiev.

It took four days for international experts to gain access to the site. The reason is that even after Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko announced a 40 kilometer ceasefire zone around the crash site, Malaysian experts came under heavy shelling by the Ukrainian army while making their way within the ceasefire zone..."

Straw poll time!

Choose one:

1. Moscow

2. Kyiv

3. Washington (aka Langley)

4. Beijing

5. Hamas

6. Tel Aviv

7. Don't know

8. Don't care

9. Can't figure out how to make political mileage out of uninformed speculation about the cause, so stop sending me these polls.

Oh sorry, I was referring to this:

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28448763]Taiwan TransAsia Airways plane crash kills at least 40[/url]

I only know what I am told by someone's biased media so in the end,

With thx to Sherpa

However specualation is fun and requires no actual knowledge.  I think it's two groups working together. The first is one of the Ukranian ultra-nationalist rightwing groups known for their pejorative anti-Russian viewpoints. They delivered the missiles to a Chechen ultra-nationalist rightwing group known for their pejorative anti-Russian viewpoints who then fired them to discredit the Russian backed separatist government.

It woud be great to have a transcript of the whole interview with appropriate translation.  I know I have been misquoted in the press when I was naive enough to enage in speculaton with a reporter. The worst case scenerio discussed somehow became my viewpoint.

Red Winnipeg wrote:

Why do some posters here reflexively support and defend Russia, which is one of the most corrupt and fascist nations on Earth? Is it as simple as: "The enemy (Russia) of my enemy (the USA) is my friend"?

What I don't understand is how some people can believe either side.

I am a skeptic and that is why I like to poke fun at "news stories" that are nothing but dressed up speculation (see Guardian puff piece above). Depending on whether or not its Russian or American or British coverage of this or any international event I can predict what the slant will be.

I think these quotes from two different far left loonies sum up my personal view of all media.

Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.”
― Benjamin Franklin

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” Buddha quote

Red Winnipeg wrote:

Why do some posters here reflexively support and defend Russia, which is one of the most corrupt and fascist nations on Earth? Is it as simple as: "The enemy (Russia) of my enemy (the USA) is my friend"?

Yes.

Nonsense isn't it?