Why do some posters here reflexively support and defend Russia, which is one of the most corrupt and fascist nations on Earth? Is it as simple as: "The enemy (Russia) of my enemy (the USA) is my friend"?Yes.
Are you speaking for yourself?
Nope
Malaysian plane crash
Thu, 2014-07-24 22:19
#202
Bec.De.Corbin
Thu, 2014-07-24 22:30
#203
'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities' - Voltaire
Great quote. Applies to so many subjects discussed here and to so much of the last 100 years of history.
Fri, 2014-07-25 01:00
#204
ikosmos
All the "evidence" I see from the US-side is arm-waving, social media claims with fuzzy photos that hardly rise to the level of good evidence, and garbled translations of "confessions" by self-defence fighters.
About the sort of evidence that the Russian military provided ... which the US would have in abundance by virtue of the full spectrum coverage over Ukraine at the time ... there is nothing. Instead, more arm-waving about how Russian evidence "isn't the same" as US evidence.
Oh, yes, and now the US is back-pedalling, and saying things like, "Oh, it was probably the "terrorists" (ie, DPR, LPR and other self-defence fighters) who shot the plane down "by accident", or "maybe" it was some soldiers who "switched sides" from Ukrainian regulars to self-defence fighters, etc., etc., all sorts of shifts, and subterfuge, and maybees, typical of congenital liars ...
Despite the total dominance in the information war, the US is gettting thoroughly pounded on this issue by an outmatched opponent.
Pounded.
Fri, 2014-07-25 04:01
#205
Where's The Beef? US Media Blame-Game...(and vid)
"Depite what US officials say there is no evidence of Russia's involvement in MH17 crash..."
Perverted Truth: How Rebel Mourning MH17 Victims Was Turned into Looter with Trophy (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-plane-photo-perverted/
"Twitter is quick, but too quick sometimes - recently it burst with photos of an evil Ukrainian militiaman who took a teddy bear from a victim of the Malaysian plane crash as a trophy..."
Fri, 2014-07-25 08:13
#206
Despite the total dominance in the information war, the US is gettting thoroughly pounded on this issue by an outmatched opponent.
Pounded.
As I was saying...
Fri, 2014-07-25 10:55
#207
ikosmos
I've made a prediction and I will re-iterate: interest will gradually be "lost" in this topic as it becomes more and more clear that "evidence" of the kind the Russian military provided (in their clumsy way, it should be added!) won't be forthcoming from either the junta in Kiev or their sponsors in Washington.
Then, as the IMF austerity and winter begins to bite, more public figures will abandon that regime ...
Then, criminal prosecutions for war crimes, and some will flee to the USA for cushy jobs and safely out of the reach of extradition...
The plane, and its victims forgotten, the next Russophobic provocation up to bat, and the next , and the next ...
Fri, 2014-07-25 11:54
#208
Despite the total dominance in the information war, the US is gettting thoroughly pounded on this issue by an outmatched opponent. Pounded.
The effectiveness of propaganda is not in the level of buy in, but in providing a cover story, no matter how implausible it is, in lieu of having to state explicitly that such and such must take place the way 'we' say it must, or else. Propaganda sets the stage for the 'or else.' Ultimately, all of the 'pounding away' matters not one iota, because a planet full of alternate information, even if the content comprised a more accurate version of events, is entirely inconsequential. The Gleiwitz Incident represents one example among many others.
Fri, 2014-07-25 12:47
#209
Why do some posters here reflexively support and defend Russia, which is one of the most corrupt and fascist nations on Earth? Is it as simple as: "The enemy (Russia) of my enemy (the USA) is my friend"?Yes.
Are you speaking for yourself?
Nope
Really because over the years it does not matter much you always cheerlead for the USA and you sure seem to buy the American Exceptionalism brand. What people like you can't grasp is people like me don't like eiher Putin or POTUS because they are both war criminals. You only see the evil from one side and not the other.
Just so you can get an idea of where my anti-Americanism comes from I grew up in a conservative voting family where I was taught that the greatest threat to Canadian sovereignty is the US and always has been. My university education at Canadian universities reinforced that fact. Since my Mom's side of the family is Acadian my ancestors were themselves ethnically cleansed by the good Protestants from Boston. My wifes side of the family were United Empire Loyalists and and I live in a province that was the subject of a great US Presidential slogan, "Fifty Four Forty or Fight." As a youth I admired everything American until my eyes were opened by the Vietnam war and the first September 11. In my lifetime the US has attacked more countries than any other nation on the planet and the excuse is often the same as what congress said in 1812. To paraphrase; we are going to liberate these people from the tyrany of British rule and they will great us as heroes.
You as a US patriot have Reveres ride while we have Lauras bravery.
I also grew up in a mining city with a large population of Eastern Europeans who had fled the Stalinist nightmare so I have never thought the government of Russia is a force for good. However unlike the POTUS Putin does not purport to act on my behalf when he committs his war crimes.
Fri, 2014-07-25 21:10
#210
ikosmos and NDPP, if we could avoid quoting sources that call Ukrainian nationals "Ukies" that would be great. And link to them only with appropriate discretion and forewarning. Thanks.
WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! 'UKIE' used here
http://www.ukraine.com/forums/open-board/3762-word-ukie.html
http://calgaryucc.org/events-calendar/e/562/
https://www.facebook.com/ukie.club
The term is used frequently by the overworked blogger Saker of the blogspot 'The Vineyard of the Saker', probably primarily to save his fingers from having to spell 'Ukrainian' incessantly over and over. His indispensible site is a MUST for anyone interested in learning the truth about what's really going on in Ukraine. http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca I think he also uses 'Rooskies' as well but I'm sure there'll be no complaints about that eh Smith?
"Ukie is a Canadian/Ukrainian term that is widely used....I'm very proud of the fact I am Ukrainian! My license plate reads UKIE 1..."
The Vineyard Saker has some new and very interesting conjecture on the MH17 incident from a Russian perspective. However, for those who may be offended - please note the above re: the 'Ukrainian' short-form and Rabble - alleged 'slur', term is also used in the following postings: Those likely to be offended by the term should avoid these postings below.
And a Few More Points From the Saker
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/and-few-more-pointers-from-sake...
"...I watched some rather interesting shows on Russian TV including one called 'Politics With Peter Tolstoi' who had a bunch of interesting guests talking about the issue of MH17 shot down over Novorussia. Here are some bullet points of some of what they said:
1) MH17 was most likely not shot down by a Buk but by an R-60M air-to-air missile shot from a [Rabble-alleged slur for 'Ukrainian'] SU-25...The main evidence that it was an R-60M missile which hit MH17 is in the radar signal which shows that the aircraft was not ripped into shreds as would be the case with the massive warhead of the Buk SAM, and the fact that even on the ground the body of the plane does not appear to be shredded the way a Buk warhead would.
2) The reason why the SBU immediately seized the recording of the conversation between the Kiev ATC and MH17 is because the so-called 'black boxes' ended up in resistance hands. The reason why Holland agreed to have the British 'decode' these recorders were because they were told to by the USA.
The Br*ts[*caution, another ethnic 'slur'/ short-form] will now let the NSA falsify the data and that falsification will be coordinated with the SBU in Kiev, which will eventually release the recordings which will surprise, surprise fully 'confirm' the 'authenticity' of the NSA doctored recordings from the UK. Formally it will be the Dutch who will announce it all in order to better hide the US/UK role in all this.
3) Besides the Russians and the Americans, the Europeans also know what happened...
6) One guest declared that he has it from a very solid source in the USA that MH17 was planned by USA and that the [Rabble-alleged Ukrainian short-form slur] Uk**s botched the execution. The plan was for the aircraft to fall into the Rostov region of Russia..."
Sat, 2014-07-26 15:56
#211
Bec.De.Corbin
1) MH17 was most likely not shot down by a Buk but by an R-60M air-to-air missile shot from a [Rabble-alleged slur for 'Ukrainian'] SU-25...The main evidence that it was an R-60M missile which hit MH17 is in the radar signal which shows that the aircraft was not ripped into shreds as would be the case with the massive warhead of the Buk SAM, and the fact that even on the ground the body of the plane does not appear to be shredded the way a Buk warhead would.
Take a look at this message thread... you can see rounded shrapnal damage to the cockpit insides.
The R 60M heat seeking air to air missle has a 6 pound warhead that throws elongagated tunstin steel rods. The SA 11 BUK's missle has a much larger warhead of about 40 pounds that throws rounded shrapnal... The shape and amount of shrapnal damage pretty much rules out the smaller air to air missle.
So Kop is this cheerleading for the USA or providing people here more information? (and thanks for your story on yourself)
Sat, 2014-07-26 16:43
#212
FWIW, - and I do not keep track or score like some of our Babble colleagues apparently do - I have generally found Bec.de.Corbin's posts to be largely information-based and not political polemics. They usually provide information / evidence from sources that run counter to that provided by NDPP and others - which is rather healthy for a discussion group, I would have thought.
Maybe s/he could tone down some of the glee or sarcasm that creeps through on some posts when pointing out the inconsisistencies if not absurdities of the info/evidence/hypotheses posted by others. But those others generally give as good as they get.
So in a nutshell, I appreciate Bec-de-Corbin's postings here and encourage him/her to continue. It provides some much needed balance and rigour to the international pages. (And this comes from someone with a disconcertingly similar family / personal history to Krop's, apart from the BC connection.)
And dammit, you gotta admit those are some f*ing big moth holes in that MH17 fuselage.
Sat, 2014-07-26 18:41
#213
I've made a prediction and I will re-iterate: interest will gradually be "lost" in this topic as it becomes more and more clear that "evidence" of the kind the Russian military provided (in their clumsy way, it should be added!) won't be forthcoming from either the junta in Kiev or their sponsors in Washington.
...The plane, and its victims forgotten, the next Russophobic provocation up to bat, and the next , and the next ...
Unfortunately I must agree with you.
And it's not because those at the top of the command chain are lacking the evidence to prove who's to blame.
Virtually the entire world is powerless to discover what actually happened/(who is responsible) when major crimes like these are committed.
Sat, 2014-07-26 19:32
#214
Bec.De.Corbin
I'm a "he" by the way...
Sat, 2014-07-26 22:05
#215
lets recap:
the greedy giants tussle, innocent people get fucked up and die.
(the fact that the world expects 30,000 ft to separate "our" innocents from a war zone speaks for itself, in a bunch of ways).
the plane was (probably) brought down by a buk missile, which both sides of the conflict have in the area.
if it was a mistake, which is entirely possible, then probably the rebels/resistance fighters/thug team "b" did it.
(organizing even a neighbourhood yard sale shows up the human "what were you thinking??" tendency; a conflict zone like ukraine must get really stupid).
if it was not a mistake, which is entirely possible, then the ukrainian gov/coup leaders/thug team "a" or other u.s. agents or assets did it.
there is no public conclusive evidenc either way yet.
interecepted "rebel" phone recordings, 'net braggings, pictures of a launcher on some road somewhere- whatever.
overall, the "who benefits" test tilts hard toward team "a", but again, it could be rebel fuck-up.
-
Sat, 2014-07-26 22:28
#216
One other option should be considered.
Maybe someone has a grudge with that airline company.
After all it is the second one in a few months.
Having it go down in a conflict zone could provide a cover.
Sat, 2014-07-26 23:14
#217
Bec.De.Corbin
lets recap:
there is no public conclusive evidenc either way yet.
interecepted "rebel" phone recordings, 'net braggings, pictures of a launcher on some road somewhere- whatever.
Question: Why whatever? When are interecepted phone recordings considered acceptable? Same with stuff posted on social media?
The Russian ones awhile back were widly accepted here with no question.
Sat, 2014-07-26 23:45
#218
lets recap:
the greedy giants tussle, innocent people get fucked up and die.
(the fact that the world expects 30,000 ft to separate "our" innocents from a war zone speaks for itself, in a bunch of ways).
the plane was (probably) brought down by a buk missile, which both sides of the conflict have in the area.
if it was a mistake, which is entirely possible, then probably the rebels/resistance fighters/thug team "b" did it.
(organizing even a neighbourhood yard sale shows up the human "what were you thinking??" tendency; a conflict zone like ukraine must get really stupid).
if it was not a mistake, which is entirely possible, then the ukrainian gov/coup leaders/thug team "a" or other u.s. agents or assets did it.
there is no public conclusive evidenc either way yet.
interecepted "rebel" phone recordings, 'net braggings, pictures of a launcher on some road somewhere- whatever.
overall, the "who benefits" test tilts hard toward team "a", but again, it could be rebel fuck-up.
-
This summary comes closer to my own impression of events than anything else I've seen here. Thank you eastnoireast.
Sun, 2014-07-27 00:46
#219
Personally, I have never found the "who benefits" test particularly compelling for trying to assess attribution in global affairs. Particularly 'random acts' like the shooting down of MH17.
While the 'who benefits' test may work well for Colombo and Agatha Christie, there are usually just too many unpredictable and uncontrollable variables in international conflicts.
Like who benefited from Hitler deciding to attack the Soviet Union in 1941? And don't get me started on 'who benefited' from the assasination of that Archduke in Sarajevo a hundred years ago.
Who benefits most from such events are very often those who react fastest or most strategically. Or in some cases, those who just guessed lucky. Or had the best PR team. But that doesn't just mean that they caused it.
If you are looking for a simple case-breaking question, I would go with "who had an interest in this happening?". Because interests provide motivation which can prompt action. But having interests and realizing benefits are two quite different things.
In the case of MH17, I would suggest that nobody had an interest in this happening. So it was most likely a fuck-up. And given the information available about comparable technologies and capacities, to me the much more likely suspect in this case seems to be the rebel forces.
Sun, 2014-07-27 01:25
#220
Bec when you stick to info your posts are useful. I always like to get a security experts opinion and since someone else pays your wages the price is right. What I've neve figured out is why you hang out in a site designed to be a meeting place for lefties? When you attack the most left wing people on this site I get the impression you are a troll only here to pick fights with lefties. But then I think that you can't help the fact that you are so pro American Exceptionalism, it is obviously a cultural problem you have not been able to overcome. I pity the fact that you can't break out of the pardigm you see the world through but I do understand the power of the greatest propoganda machine the planet has ever seen.
Sun, 2014-07-27 02:22
#221
This personal shit is off-topic.
You think you have a valid complaint about another poster? Call a mod. But accusing someone of being a troll and questioning motivation is out of line, and it's none of your damned business why any of us post here.
You think I couldn't whine all day about what I see as people's blind spots and biases if I wanted to? I don't; I try my best (and fail sometimes) to keep it to actual errors and interpretation of the subject at hand.
Oh. And harrassment.
Why? Because I don't assume that my views are the only valid ones in this place. That I am the "real lefty" and all those who disagree with me on this issue are not.
Now can we talk about the air disaster? Bec seems like a good fellow, but he's really not what I came here to discuss.
Sun, 2014-07-27 04:57
#222
Bec.De.Corbin
Can we please get off me as a subject. Thanks.
US faces intel hurdles in downing of airliner
Citing satellite imagery, intercepted conversations and social media postings, U.S. intelligence officials have been able to present what they call a solid circumstantial case that the plane was brought down by a Russian-made SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in Eastern Ukraine.But they have not offered proof of what they say is their strong belief that the separatists obtained the sophisticated missile system from the Russian government. And they say they have not determined what, if any, involvement Russian operatives may have had in directing or encouraging the attack, which they believe was a mistaken attempt to hit a Ukrainian military aircraft
I never expected them to ever be able to prove if Russian handlers were there at the launch site. To be honest I think the whole " it's too complex for the rebels to operate" is a bit of BS. Many of the separatists are veterans of both the Ukrainian and Russian militaries. With a little refresher training I bet they could have a few crews ready in no time to at least operate the launcher.
Anyways what I did expect were some satellite pictures or something showing the vehicles in the area... stuff like that. I'm a bit disappointed and surprised that hasn't been the case (yet) but that doesn't change my opinion that the separatist thought they were firing on anther Ukrainian military transport like they hit on July 14th.
Everyone keeps forgetting about that shoot down. It's yet MORE evidence, be it circumstantial, that the sepratists has high shooting AA systems like the SA-11 BUK. The aircraft was high enough (21,000 feet) that 4 crewman had time to bail out of the stricken aircraft... That aircraft doesn't have ejection seats, they had to open a door and jump out. If they were down low enough to be hit by a man pad surface to air missile I doubt they'd have time to do that. Then the ML-17 shoot down happens July 17th... Hummm I think someone was trying to get another transport aircraft.
Sun, 2014-07-27 09:15
#223
There was a pic on a CNN story a few days ago that had a missile trajectory.
I didn't post it because the only source was a tweet; I looked around but couldn't find anything solid source, so it seemed a bit too dodgy to post. This piece at least says "U.S. government", but there are no details. FWIW, here it is:
http://www.ibtimes.com/satellite-trajectory-flight-mh17-released-malaysi...
And Dutch investigators have cancelled plans to go to the site
Sun, 2014-07-27 12:54
#224
Bec.De.Corbin
This "drawing" is a graphic representation of telemetry data obtained by US radar and sensor satellites (non photographic). If they showed you the telemetry data in its raw form unless you are one of a hand full of people on the planet that can read it this would look like computer data gibberish on a speardsheet print out. There is no photograph, this is as good as it gets so take it or leave it.
Sun, 2014-07-27 13:00
#225
Yeah, I figured, given the coloured lines. I just meant they didn't even give any background, aside from the name of the company on the pic there was nothing saying who had released it, and the fact that it showed up in a tweet, rather than a press release.
There is this, though (from last weekend):
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/malaysia-airlines-mh17-vide...
Sun, 2014-07-27 20:24
#226
Bec.De.Corbin
From the above link.
Eliot Higgins, a video and photographic analyst, published the pictures on his investigative journalism website Bellingcat. "The guy who uploaded one of the videos, deleted the video and his accounts a few hours after the plane came down," Higgins said.
Again with the social media being posted then deleted.
It looks like the Snizhne area is popping up allot as the suspected launch site. It's implacated in the two above posts and on this intractive map made by an amature debunker from one of the other message threads I'm part of, check it out.
Sun, 2014-07-27 22:26
#227
Flight #MH17: What You're Not Being Told (and vid)
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/07/27/flight-mh17-what-youre-not-being-told/
"An excellent overview of some of the key damning evidentiary red flags inexorably pointing to the real culprits behind the collapse of Ukraine as a country, the genocidal fratricidal civil war, and, most recently, the devastating catastrophe of Malaysian Airlines Boeing MH17 that took away almost 300 lives.
These culprits are the gang of murderers we have termed the Ukrainian Junta and their overseas patrons and masters, the leadership of the world's expiring superpower - the USA
Cui Bono? (and vid)
"Who benefits from the MH17 disaster...?"
Mon, 2014-07-28 01:35
#228
lets recap:
there is no public conclusive evidenc either way yet.
interecepted "rebel" phone recordings, 'net braggings, pictures of a launcher on some road somewhere- whatever.
Question: Why whatever? When are interecepted phone recordings considered acceptable? Same with stuff posted on social media?
The Russian ones awhile back were widly accepted here with no question.
i am not "here", i am eastnoireast.
you really have to ask why i don't consider phone recordings released by an involved/biased player with a long track record of making shit up, and "stuff posted to social media" as non-conclusive evidence?
-
Mon, 2014-07-28 01:57
#229
Russia Media Allege Flight MH17 Shot Down By Ukrainian Missile Unit - by Peter Schwartz
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07/26/ukra-j26.html
"The Malaysian passenger plane MH17 may have been shot down July 17 by a Ukrainian anti-aircraft unit during an exercise, according to Russia's Ria Novosti, which cited an anonymous source in the UKrainian security apparatus..."
Mon, 2014-07-28 03:50
#230
Bec.De.Corbin
So what happened to the SU-25 shoot down theory Russia was pushing a few days ago?
@ eastnoireast: got ya, thanks.
Mon, 2014-07-28 08:00
#231
"An excellent overview of some of the key damning evidentiary red flags inexorably pointing to the real culprits behind the collapse of Ukraine as a country, the genocidal fratricidal civil war, and, most recently, the devastating catastrophe of Malaysian Airlines Boeing MH17 that took away almost 300 lives.
These culprits are the gang of murderers we have termed the Ukrainian Rebels and their neighbouring patrons and masters, the leadership of the world's expired superpower - Russia."
Yawn.
Mon, 2014-07-28 08:24
#232
And what about the plane full of corpses? Haven't heard about that for awhile.
@ eastnoireast
What long track record of making shit up? The recordings were released by the Ukrainian Security Service.
Maybe you have a list of supposed hoaxes they have perpetrated since March?
Mon, 2014-07-28 12:50
#233
Maybe you have a list of supposed hoaxes they have perpetrated since March?
Start with the democracy they're supposeed to be presiding over.
Mon, 2014-07-28 13:11
#234
Maybe you have a list of supposed hoaxes they have perpetrated since March?Start with the democracy they're supposeed to be presiding over.
What does that even mean?
ENE talks about a long track record of making things up, and "stuff posted to social media"? Well let's hear a couple of documented ones. And I'm not saying there haven't been any unverified claims (many since proven to be true), but debunked hoaxes? I can think of only one possible one. Never mind backing up this claim... do you even know which one I'm talking about?
Mon, 2014-07-28 13:18
#235
I think the problem is that you yourself seem to often lose track of what you are talking about.
Mon, 2014-07-28 16:03
#236
Bec.De.Corbin
The Ukrainian army has taken some of the area where flight MH-17 went down.
Mon, 2014-07-28 16:10
#237
This is from yesterday, but also shows a map of where the lines are.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/28/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0
Mon, 2014-07-28 17:19
#238
Kiev Intensifies Combat Operations in MH17 Crash Zone to Evade Exposure - DNR PM
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742498
"The junta is in panic, the only thing that matters for them today is to evade exposure. Kiev's actions run counter to Poroshenko's decision to declare a 40-kilometre zone around the crash site a ceasefire territory.'
'Kiev is seeking to destroy all evidence of the crime committed by its military,' Alexander Boroday said."
Kiev Says Rocket Blast Downed MH17, Dutch Probe Says Info 'Premature'
http://rt.com/news/176136-mh17-crash-rocket-ukraine/
"Ukraine says analysis of the black-box recorders from the downed Malaysia Airlines plane shows it was destroyed by shrapnel from a rocket blast. Dutch investigators, however, say they have not shared data with Kiev, calling the claim 'premature'.
The Dutch Safety Board (DSB), which is heading the investigation into the crash, was puzzled by statements coming from Kiev. According to DSB spokeswoman Sara Vernooij, the 'premature' release of details of MH17 black boxes is 'not in the best interest of the investigation.'
The DSB is expected to release its initial findings on the MH17 crash on August 1..."
Mon, 2014-07-28 18:56
#239
Malaysian Boeing Disaster - Russia's Questions to Ukraine
http://rt.com/politics/official-word/175584-russia-agency-questions-mh17/
"Russia's Air Transport Agency has prepared a number of questions for Ukraine, seeking to clarify the situation surrounding the crash of flight MH17..."
MH17: Killing Innocent Civilians in Order to Save Fascism For Ukraine and NATO Expansionism
http://vladimirsuchan.blogspot.ca/2014/07/mh17-killing-innocent-civilian...
"...On the heels of announcements that Ukraine refuses to give to the international investigators of the MH17 crash records of the conversations and directions passed between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Malaysian Boeing are coming reports that these records got lost, and that the key dispatcher from Dnepropetrovsk who was communicating with the plane disappeared.
Other reports alleged that a group of US experts is busy reviewing the records in order to decide what can and cannot be released and in which form, if at all. Perhaps the decision has already been made.
The air traffic control, which guided the plane in its last movment over the Donetsk People's Republic, operates from Dnepropetrovsk, which is also the bastion and main seat of [Israeli-Ukrainian] oligarch Ihor Kolomeysky's power and his expanding Nazi fiefdom."
Mon, 2014-07-28 19:33
#240
I thought the Dutch Safety Board was heading this investigation.
What does Russia have to do with any of this, and by what authority are they asking for anything? It wasn't their plane. The crash isn't on their territory, and I'm not aware that any of the people on board, nor any of those killed on the ground were Russian.
Mon, 2014-07-28 22:44
#241
@ eastnoireast
What long track record of making shit up? The recordings were released by the Ukrainian Security Service.
Maybe you have a list of supposed hoaxes they have perpetrated since March?
6079, you used to one of my favorite posters here. stable, perspective seeking, interested in collective dialogue and the truth of the matter.
there's been, in my view, a steady drift in your comments towards a shrill defence of the status quo, saving it from the crazy lefties.
this is not meant as a personal attack, it's an observation from someone who had and has respect for you.
-
what the hell is it with this thread and trying to slip in stuff i never said? march? where did that come from?
edit: oh, i see now. the uke gov can't have a long track record of making shit up because they are new! since march! clean and a-ton-a-mouse like the driven snow! no connection to the u.s.! especially the ukranian security service!
i was not taliking about the ukrainian gov as a discreet entity, i was talking about western ptb.
-
ok, to answer your question. (again, "hoaxes" is your word, i said "making shit up").
a) what slumberjack said, "start with the democracy they are supposed to be presiding over". us/canada/ukraine, take your pick.
b ) gulf of tonkin, iraq incubator babies, iraqi wmd, staged saddam statue pull down, etc.
reichstag fires work.
oh and the justification for every invasion and propped-up dictator, the current gaza pen-shoot, and the wording of every press release since oh, 1700ad. except for that one time back in '73...
-
Mon, 2014-07-28 23:13
#242
So why are you just now paying me this gracious compliment... so you can serve it up as my fault for disappointing you?
I have no problem with lefties. I actually consider myself one. My problem is with people who can't be bothered to do their homework. Oh... and people who talk as if they are the only lefties in the room.
Now, as for the claim I asked you to back up, no need to go back to the last century. Really, I'd have settled for any dodgy information coming from the presumed fascists - pre or post Poroschenko. As I said, I am aware of some - the claim that the Donetsk People's Republic was asking Jewish people to register - at an address where no one knew what they were talking about. No idea who actually perpetrated it, but without better evidence it seems to be a hoax. It's not like I am asking for much.
There is plenty of stuff I don't post here because it either doesn't pass the smell test, or it hasn't been verified. Given that, it's kind of frustrating to deal with a lot of what is passed off as gospel. That, and the attitude that has been in the air for months now.
Mon, 2014-07-28 23:39
#243
I assume we have all read this, but here it is. It was a massive decompression caused by shrapnel:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28532525
Tue, 2014-07-29 00:30
#244
So why are you just now paying me this gracious compliment... so you can serve it up as my fault for disappointing you?
I have no problem with lefties. I actually consider myself one. My problem is with people who can't be bothered to do their homework. Oh... and people who talk as if they are the only lefties in the room.
Now, as for the claim I asked you to back up, no need to go back to the last century. Really, I'd have settled for any dodgy information coming from the presumed fascists - pre or post Poroschenko. As I said, I am aware of some - the claim that the Donetsk People's Republic was asking Jewish people to register - at an address where no one knew what they were talking about. No idea who actually perpetrated it, but without better evidence it seems to be a hoax. It's not like I am asking for much.
There is plenty of stuff I don't post here because it either doesn't pass the smell test, or it hasn't been verified. Given that, it's kind of frustrating to deal with a lot of what is passed off as gospel. That, and the attitude that has been in the air for months now.
i mentioned my thoughts on your postings when i did, because you directly engaged my comment, and directly asked for my response, it has been awhile since we exchanged, and i felt it was relevant. maybe i should have pm'd you or something. it was, and is, meant honestly and straight up.
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yes, there is an attitude in the air. to me it smells like little stagnant puddles, fear, hate, a testosterone imbalance, adrenalin, and frustration.
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i think my initial comment was pretty even toned - greedy giants at work, both sides have the allleged equipement, none of us know, the who benefits test leans one way, that side (u.s. et all; does have an on-the-record record of making shit up), i don't put much/any faith in alleged phone or 'net "evidence".
pretty even, i would think it would be the kind of post you would appreciate even if you didn't fully agree with it.
but that post "drew fire" from both you and bec, with introduced straw arguments.
have i quoted any "official russian news sources?" did i say anything in the russians favour?
wasn't it clear when i said "the greedy giants fight" i wasn't talking about ukraine and the rebels, but u.s. and russia? really?
but that was my post, reflected back at me.
"Now, as for the claim I asked you to back up, no need to go back to the last century"
i was backing up what i said, not what you thought i said.
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Tue, 2014-07-29 04:02
#245
MH17: Beware of the 'Chameleon' by Wayne Madsen
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-cha...
"The seizure of the air traffic control center at Borispol by allies of Kolomoisky shortly before the shooting down of MH-17 and Kolomoisky's strong links to Israel, which benefitted immensely from the downing of MH17, because it drew the attention of the world's media away from its ground invasion of Gaza, which began just as initial reports about the fate of MH17 were being transmitted, may be the real story behind the loss of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 and the horrible deaths of its 298 passengers and crew."
A Deleted BBC Report: 'A Ukrainian Fighter Jet Shot Down MH17, Donetsk Eyewitnesses'
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/29/deleted-bbc-report-ukra...
"Why did BBC delete this report by Olga Ivshina? Is it because every eyewitness interviewed by the BBC team specifically indicated the presence of a Ukrainian military aircraft right beside the Malaysian Airlines Boeing MH17 at the time it was shot down?"
Tue, 2014-07-29 06:13
#246
So why are you just now paying me this gracious compliment...
I don't know why either.
My problem is with people who can't be bothered to do their homework. Oh...
How many lies from the western corporate imperium are we supposed to absorb before we can say with any accuracy that we've learned our lessons well professor? For you, history seems to start every time you look at a clock on the wall. Everything else prior to is just made up shit. For you, all the monstrous lies and mass murder that passes for western civilization and our way of life here in the west for the past 100 years alone gets all boiled down to one's 'point of view,' as if it's all a matter of perspective.
That, and the attitude that has been in the air for months now.
Your attitude seems to be that nothing passes the smell test if it isn't being flogged as gospel by the western corporate media. It's all one sided with you, and when you're called on it, you perform a little foot shuffle and a 'ta-da' to say you're a 'leftist.' I'm beginning to think leftism is more of a condition than a political leaning.
Tue, 2014-07-29 09:34
#247
maybe i should have pm'd you or something.
Yes, that might be something to remember for next time.
A roundup of a number of things here, including a possible launch site which was found six days ago:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/27/mh17-investigation-doomed-why-th...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10984530/MH17-t...
And about that allegation of BBC censorship:
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ca/2014/07/no-bbc-video-removal-s...
My initial reaction was that Leder's response was disingenuous.
However, the BBC has since re-posted the video.
Reader Jacob Dreizin, a US citizen who speaks Russian and reads Ukrainian, went over the original and now re-posted videos and it appears the BBC was telling the truth all along.
And that from a blogger who seems more inclined to accept the Russian version of events.
Tue, 2014-07-29 12:50
#248
lets recap:
the greedy giants tussle, innocent people get fucked up and die.
(the fact that the world expects 30,000 ft to separate "our" innocents from a war zone speaks for itself, in a bunch of ways).
the plane was (probably) brought down by a buk missile, which both sides of the conflict have in the area.
if it was a mistake, which is entirely possible, then probably the rebels/resistance fighters/thug team "b" did it.
(organizing even a neighbourhood yard sale shows up the human "what were you thinking??" tendency; a conflict zone like ukraine must get really stupid).
if it was not a mistake, which is entirely possible, then the ukrainian gov/coup leaders/thug team "a" or other u.s. agents or assets did it.
there is no public conclusive evidenc either way yet.
interecepted "rebel" phone recordings, 'net braggings, pictures of a launcher on some road somewhere- whatever.
overall, the "who benefits" test tilts hard toward team "a", but again, it could be rebel fuck-up.
There is a major logical flaw here.
Your evidence is dependent on the conclusion you picked. To apply a "who benefits" test you have to already have accepted that the act was intentional. You say that if intentional then it must be team a and the evidence for that is based on an analysis that presumes intention (without intention a “who benefits” test is meaningless). So what we have is an argument that basically says the argument that "team a did it" is supported by a reading of intent that supposes that team a did it. Really it is circular logic.
It is also a theory based on a premise that is not conclusive. I don't think that “team a” benefits at all. The presumption of benefit is a leap and the risk of conspiracy overwhelms any realistic presumption of benefit. Whomever did this did it by accident or did it with a poor analysis of risk-benefit. It is very likely that a conspiracy, if there were one, would only survive for a short time and any benefit would then become a huge disadvantage to the perpetrator.
Without evidence to the contrary, I prefer the simpler conclusion that this was an accident. I would also say that generally it is safer to go with the simpler explanation unless evidence supports a different conclusion. What you have is some doubt but nothing conclusive enough to conclude anything other than accident.
As well, accident does not conclude with certainty that it was the rebels. Ukraine or Russia presumably could also make a mistake. It is just less likely. So:
1) Most likely it is accident (until evidence is found to prove otherwise).
2) Accident suggests the Rebels are more likely but this is not certain at least for now.
My other point made before is that if this is an accident, it should be considered a horrible tragedy but does not in itself condemn whichever side made the mistake. It does condemn the use of violence but it would appear that both sides have played that card and both can make arguments respecting their position. Condemning violence does not sort out who is responsible in this case for starting it. That’s another argument. So this does not conclude anything with respect to the rightness or wrongness of either position with respect to the war. Unfortunately so many will do all they can to:
1) Argue that the deaths were the fault of the other side
2) Argue that this means the other side is wrong with respect to the entire conflict.
So now both sides can be angry with me for arguing that this tragedy cannot be used by either side to defend themselves or condemn the other. It can only be used to argue for peace and to condemn the violence.
Tue, 2014-07-29 13:08
#249
No disagreement or anger from me, Sean. It's actually the most prevalent theory.
Nicely sliced and diced, though.
Tue, 2014-07-29 13:50
#250
Bec.De.Corbin
but that post "drew fire" from both you and bec, with introduced straw arguments.
I only asked you about why you said "whatever" to phone recordings and social media posts as evidence. I asked you a question, you answered it and I acknowledged your answer. How is that shooting at you or presenting straw arguments?
Tue, 2014-07-29 13:55
#251
Main stream media as propaganda arm of the state.
The way the media within an hour or so of the crash and before any meaningful investigation could even have started were immediately in full scale "demonize Putin" mode (eg headlines in UK papers - "Putin killed my baby" or "Putin's missile brings down airliner" etc.). It brought to mind how the news commentators in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks immediately were able to identify who exactly the culprit (boogy man) we were supposed to hate (and fear) was.
I think economist Paul Craig Roberts, the former Secretary of the Treasury of the USA explains in a recent newsletter exactly what is going on in these types of cases:
"Peter Duveen, who commented on my article exposing the State Department hoax, explained that having foreknowledge of news events that Washington orchestrates allows Washington to control the explanation before any evidence is available. By the time evidence is gathered, the narrative is established and the evidence ignored:
'Part of the US propaganda mill’s effort is into forming the conversation. Once certain narratives take hold, true or untrue, they edge out other narratives. So the effort is to get control of the narrative, to form the conversation with whatever materials, usually false, are available. Then, of course, the false information will be referenced as true, and the direction of the narrative will be fixed. The narrative being lowered into place, for example, is that Russia was somehow responsible for the downing of Flight 17. With the help of the media, the hope is that the narrative will gain momentum. Eventually, if it catches properly, it will be impossible to question, just as people are considered freaks who question the official narrative of 9-11."
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/28/update-latest-us-government-h...