The Donetsk National Republic lives!

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Tue, 2014-08-26 16:14

ikosmos

A great turning point has been reached. The puppet fascist regime in Kiev is rapidly falling apart, the rats are leaving the sinking ship (perhaps using their Israeli passports to flee with!) , their German backers have pulled the rug out from underneath them, and the state terrorism in the east has been firmly rebuffed.

The following press conference is worth watching in its entirety. The two key speakers are: Alexander V. Zakharchenko, Chairman of the Council of Ministers of Donetsk National Republic, and Vladimir Kononov, Defense Minister of DNR.

Formation of a State: a new power emerges. Let freedom reign!

(If the English subtitles do not work, try the Sakar's website and watch the video there. )

The Vineyard of the Saker

some quotes follow in the next post.

Issues Pages:

World

Tue, 2014-08-26 16:16

ikosmos

Alexander V. Zakharchenko, Chairman of the Council of Ministers of Donetsk National Republic.

"We will continue until we free all populated areas in the Donetsk National Republic. The army is ready and we have the support of the people. There will be more and more prisoners.

Now regarding the parade. I deliberately put the trophy equipment on display on Lenin Square. Everything that comes to us from Kiev, will end up in the same condition sooner or later. The more will come, the easier it'll be for us to restore our economy. ..."

Vladimir Kononov, Defense Minister of DNR

"Dear journalists, TV audience, I would like to appeal to you. The Ukrainian aggressive occupation army came on our soil. They brought a nationalist ideology that has no respect for human life. Their only interest is in our territory and resources. They launch their vile attacks on residential civilian complexes (full of) grandmothers, women, and children...."

Zakharchenko(later): "Let me correct you. We were the militia 10 days ago. Today we are the armed forces of the Donetsky National Republic. The DNR's armed forces by no means try to strike on residential neighborhoods and houses. We don't and never will practice this. This is our homeland, our soil, and our Motherland."

Reporter: "The Parade of prisoners of war we've seen this afternoon, isn't it against all humanitarian conventions and motions of dignity?'

Zakharchenko: "As a lawyer, I can say that we did nothing against international law. The prisoners were not undressed or starved. Show me a single international law which prohibits parading prisoners. We have not done anything illegal."

Reporter 2: "What was the purpose of this parade? Were you trying to send a message to Kiev? Why did you make a decision to parade the prisoners of war?"

Zakharchenko: "Kiev said that they will march in parade in Donetsk on the 24th. So they did. Poroshenko didn`t lie. They were here together with their hardware."

Reporter 3: There are historical parallels with July 1944 and the March of the Nazis. Did it happen by accident or was it done on purpose?

Zakharchenko: Honestly, we have recently seen one of the insignias of the 2nd separate brigade: the complete emblem of the Galicia SS Division, a 79 SS Galicia badge. When we saw the full symbol of this Division.... Many Russian families suffered losses in the Second World War. One of the ancestors in my family fought against the Galicia SS Division. This is not just a parallel, this is generational: my great-grandfather, and now I, and the same Division ... That's why a desire was born to repeat 1944 so they would realize that it all happened before, it has repeated itself with the same result.

Zakharchenko (... commenting on sailors from the French navy volunteering to fight alongside the soldiers of the DNR ) "The European ideals of equality, fraternity, and the French revolution, as in the Marseillaise, resonate with the patriots of France. It means the nation is not dead, since it has such representatives who are willing to go to faraway places to fight for their ideals, which the Bastille was once taken for."

Reporter: "Are there regular Russian military units fighting on your side?"

Zakharchenko "If you think that Russia is sending its regular units here, then let me tell you something. If Russia was sending its regular troops, we wouldn't be talking about the battle of Evenovka here. We'd be talking of the battle of Kiev or a possible capture of Lvov.

Now there is a war on our soil for our territory. We have an influx of volunteers from all over the world. Of course, the Russian help would be very desirable, but from a political point of view it is impossible and unrealistic. Thanks, by the way, to European countries. You do not acknowledge this war just as you did not acknowledge the Great Patriotic War, didn't you?

What have we done? What is our guilt? The fact that we have shale gas, for which you want to erase Slavyansk from the face of the earth? Or any other financial interests?

We are all descendants of the glorious ancestors. We all have ancestors that we are proud of. Between the two of us (Zakharchenko and Kononov) there are two Heroes of the Soviet Union. We are still able to hold weapons in our hands. We swallowed with our mothers' milk a pride and desire to live in a free and happy Donbass. We'll tell anyone who comes to harm us on our soil: we will fight tooth and nail for our Motherland. Kiev and the West made a big mistake by awakening us. ...

We are hard working people. While others were jumping on the Maidan for 300 grivnas, our people were down in the mine, mining coal, melting metal and sowing crop. None of us had time to jump, we were busy working. When a person who just yesterday worked with a jackhammer or operated a harvester, today got behind a steering wheel of a tank or Grad, or picked up a machine gun, the line has been crossed and you cannot stop him. The one who left his job knows that he will fight to the end and to his last breath. You may pass it on to others; don't wake the beast. Just don't.

While there is still an opportunity, let mothers spare their sons. For some, perhaps this will be terrible news: there still lie several hundred soldiers of the armed forces of the Ukrainian army under Panovka, Saur-Mohyla who are unaccounted for. Families receive "missing in action" letters. They are actually dead. Kiev authorities do it on purpose. Hundreds and thousands dead in more than a dozen graves. I announce it officially. Let everyone know if you received a "missing in action" letter, then most likely your husband, brother or son got killed.

Kononov: I can give you an example from the battle of the 72nd and 25th batalions against us in Shakhtersk. I have all the documents of the soldiers who burned near the wrecked machinery. We returned the bodies to the Ukrainian army. Two weeks later, we received information that they were "missing in action".

Why did they bother to pick up the bodies?!!

Zakharchenko This is a battle of annihilation. Unfortunately, the Slavs are fighting among themselves and destroying their best people.... Let me clarify. No federalization can be possible today. There is a time for everything. We asked for the federalization 3 months ago, then we asked for permission to hold a referendum. That time has passed. Now we want to live independently.

Tue, 2014-08-26 19:08

Slumberjack

A chilling video. They do maintain their memories do they not? I remember when a lot of people were stirred by the speech put out by the Canadian Chief of Defence Staff when he referred to the Afghan insurgency as a 'ball of snakes,' and about appreciating hardware (tanks) with the ability to "reach out and touch somebody a long ways a way, and when he “had to take a bit of an appetite suppressant” to dampen down the urge to hit the government up for even more equipment like that. Its the type of thing you have to expect from a military briefing no matter who it is. You would have to have a pretty firm ideology yourself to fight against that kind of loyalty and expect to prevail.

But that bit about Ukrainian authorities tying rocks onto the bodies of their soldiers who were returned to that side by the Russian militia, and then the authorities dropping the bodies out of helicopters over a lake while sending the families throughout western Ukraine and Kiev notifications that their loved ones are 'missing in action' in order to hide the terrible cost of this folly from the public consciousness, is an entirely new one on me.

Tue, 2014-08-26 19:27

Webgear

Hopefully navigation classes are provided to the new fledging army as soon as possible.

Tue, 2014-08-26 19:35

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

the rats are leaving the sinking ship (perhaps using their Israeli passports to flee with!)

You know, if you talk about Israel you're talking about a state. Make reference to someone's Israeli passport, especially in the context of eastern Europe, and you are, intentionally or not, calling someone out as Jewish.

I have seen a couple of references in recent posts here to people's Israeli passports (once in connection to an article on Ihor Kolomoyski).

And I noticed a post following the saker's article that made reference to the "Jewish dictator". And of course, at least one openly anti-semitic (Uncle Shmuel) reference in his own articles.

Is there some Israeli plot going on here that people are alluding to, but not providing any actual evidence for? If not, why the repeated reference to people's Israeli citizenship? I know there are some right wing commentators who have taken it a step further and revived the old lie about the international Jewish conspiracy taking over Ukraine, planning to nationalize all private business.

Not to be a jerk about it, but I'm going to refer this one to the mods. Perhaps it's not any different than some of the other veiled allusions in this discussion, but it made me pretty uncomfortable the first time I read it. And it sure doesn't feel any better now.

Tue, 2014-08-26 19:50

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

the rats are leaving the sinking ship (perhaps using their Israeli passports to flee with!)

You know, if you talk about Israel you're talking about a state. Make reference to someone's Israeli passport, especially in the context of eastern Europe, and you are, intentionally or not, calling someone out as Jewish.

Are the passports not issued under the authority of the State of Israel? If we revile Israel for its actions in Gaza, isn't it incidental that the people involved are likely Jewish. Some of the people reviling Israel are Israeli citizens, who also happen to be Jews. But here a reference is being made regarding individuals who bear documents issued by the Israeli government, just as any tourist to that region would - whatever the reason given for travelling - be in possession of official travel documents from their country of origin. I believe that in the speech as translated in the video, reference was made to French citizens who came to volunteer, volunteers from other places were mentioned as well. They too would likely have in their possession official travel documents. What is also known is that Israel is America's firm ally, and many citizens would have dual relationships with Ukraine and Russia, along with many contacts and places to go throughout the region. Nations at war or at peace anywhere else universally exercise the right to know where visitors are coming from and what their business might be, and particularly in times of crisis. With its close relationship to the US, Israel would likely be suspected as a source of espionage against the interests of the self declared republics.

Tue, 2014-08-26 20:02

Slumberjack

Webgear wrote:
Hopefully navigation classes are provided to the new fledging army as soon as possible.

Sounds like they're already on familiar ground.

Tue, 2014-08-26 20:04

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Not to be a jerk about it, but I'm going to refer this one to the mods.

You mean, 'not to be a jerk about it, but you're going to be one anyway?' What I really thing is going on here is that the video ikosmos linked was quite disturbing for you. Maybe for the first time you have been made aware that this is no cakewalk, and that these people are quite serious about their rights, no matter who you accuse of calling the shots in this situation, and you've decided to make a scurrilous accusation to see if ikosmos might be punished in some way. Because it completely undermines the narrative you've been running with, that Putin is behind everything, and that these are not the autonomous decisions and declarations of the people who live there.

Tue, 2014-08-26 20:12

Slumberjack

Quote:
Zakharchenko: "As a lawyer, I can say that we did nothing against international law. The prisoners were not undressed or starved. Show me a single international law which prohibits parading prisoners. We have not done anything illegal."

I'm not a lawyer, but we went through this a number of times as I recall in the context of Guantanamo Bay, and the provisions of Article 3(c) of the 4th Geneva Convention. If he played a role in organizing and ordering that procession, I believe he has admitted on video to committing a war crime. Its no different than when the Americans are doing it.

Tue, 2014-08-26 20:13

#10

6079_Smith_W

Like I said, if there is evidence of an Israeli plot, let's hear it. In absence of that, why the reference, especially since we haven't identified any actual members of the Rada who have Israeli citizenship. Near as I can tell it is just a slur. What does it mean?

And considering the number of real anti-Semitic slurs (those I mentioned, and others, like the video identifying the "Jew member of the Rada" who was apparently smuggling a rifle in to the Maidan), and pictures I have seen elsewhere of Arseny Yatzeniuk with a yellow Star of David on his jacket. It's just a little close for comfort. Identifying someone as an Israeli citizen - a Jew - is a bit different than identifying someone as French, Russian, or American.

(edit)

And I haven't watched the video yet, SJ.

Actually I said that because I'm not accusing ikosmos of being intentionally racist. He is not the only person who has said it here. Who said anything at all about punishment? If asking for a ruling on material I find uncomfortable is being a jerk, then fine, I'm a jerk.

Tue, 2014-08-26 20:56

#11

NDPP

Was planning to post this important press conference myself - so glad to see it already here and with the prominence it deserves. Also, Ukrainian oligarchs ARE important, powerful and very involved actors in all of this. Some of these are Jews. An examination of their contributions, allegiances and agendas is of course an important part of this story. Unfortunately, IMHO any attempts to discuss this here will simply result in an inflammatory, distracting and diversionary shit-storm, which is very likely the reason Smith has raised it.

Tue, 2014-08-26 21:06

#12

Slumberjack

Probably better not to bother anyway until we get a ruling. I've got my list of objectionable media already drawn up.

Tue, 2014-08-26 21:14

#13

6079_Smith_W

Oh nonsense, NDPP. You have already posted material about several of them.

Tue, 2014-08-26 21:41

#14

ikosmos

meh. It's well known that both Poroshenko and "Yats" have Israeli passports. This issue was AFAIK brought up when the anti-Semitic propaganda coming from some of the fascists and neo-Nazis supporting the junta in Kiev were exposed; the point was made that both Yats and Poroshenko had Israeli passports and therefore "couldn't" be anti-Semitic, etc etc. in an effort to debunk the claims that the Kiev regime was riddled with Nazis.

We see now that both can be true. Racism, and politics, makes strange bedfellows.

Israel is very closely connected to the US and its foreign policy goals in Europe, Asia, Africa and around the world. It's entirely legitimate to note the close connection between another brutal regime and ... Israel. If Poroshenko flees, as I think he may, from the responsibility of ethnic cleansing and war crimes, where better than to a regime that does the same thing on a daily basis?

Who gives a sh*t what anyone's religion is? The point is, would he flee to another criminal regime? Why? That's the point.

Tue, 2014-08-26 22:23

#15

6079_Smith_W

Yatsenyuk is Jewish, and downplayed it for much of his career. Never heard anything about either of them having passports.

Poroshenko visited Israel back in the spring trying to get recognition of Ukraine's territorial integrity. One wonders why he would have to if his government was part of some rumoured Zionist/U.S. plot to begin with.

Other than that all I have heard about is the mayor of Kharkiv (who does have an Israeli passport) going there for surgery after he was shot in the back by a mystery sniper.

Tue, 2014-08-26 23:19

#16

cco

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Identifying someone as an Israeli citizen - a Jew - is a bit different than identifying someone as French, Russian, or American.

Turns out having a religion-centered nationality law leads to some really nasty situations.

That said, I mostly agree with you. There have been very unpleasant anti-Semitic undertones in a lot of coverage of Ukraine (from both sides), which I've spoken against before. But when Israel makes such a massive point of calling every Jewish person in the world an Israeli citizen, it gets awkward to have it both ways. (Which is one of the reasons I was so shocked by Harper's recent immigration bill, which makes it legal for the Canadian government to strip citizenship from any Canadian-born individual who's eligible for any other citizenship. Congratulations, you just passed legislation allowing Canada to deport each and every Jew.)

Tue, 2014-08-26 23:27

#17

Pierre C yr

Theres not much to that video. Its grandstanding as the pockets of resistance are being reduced and russian leadership bails back to Moscow. Sooner the better to be freed of theocratic authoritarians thugs who kidnap and torture anyone who dares oppose them. The nazi meme that russian state propaganda has unleashed is slowly fading but as long as insurgent thugs, half of whom are russian, use violence instead of democratic processes there wont be peace until they are defeated.

Wed, 2014-08-27 00:19

#18

6079_Smith_W

cco wrote:

Turns out having a religion-centered nationality law leads to some really nasty situations.

Religious and racial. Yup, I agree with you completely there.

Thing is, Israeli politics is not something that should be used to target every Jewish person in the world (and I expect you agree with that). And I see no direct connection at all to the situation in Ukraine. The irony is, it is the main smear being made by the real Nazis.

Wed, 2014-08-27 00:28

#19

ikosmos

Back to the DNR. The Saker has reviewed the video and made some interesting notes.

"his is no ordinary run of the mill press conference, this is a formation of a framework of a resistance army. Not a resistance militia. There is a big difference. One belongs to a territory and the other to a state.... They no longer represent a rag tag militia. This is a well oiled fighting machine with International volunteers joining the cause."

And a prediction of what is to come ...

Quote:
The crisis in Ukraine is nothing but a joint ethnic cleansing campaign by the US and EU via their SS division in Ukraine. It really is as simple as that. To hesitate now would mean certain doom tomorrow. The EU & US cannot be trusted anymore. The only solution is total control over Ukraine; Kiev must be liberated.

I don't see this myself. Yes, the leadership is leaving the sinking ship, for Xxx and Yyy for example, or preparing to do so, but this would be an astounding change of fortune. As the Saker has pointed out himself, defending your territory from state terrorists who have great equipment but lousy morale is one thing, switching over to a territorial offensive requires an enormous change. Still, an interesting prediction. Remember that it took some years before the tie-chewing Georgian war criminal (Saakashvili) was driven from Tbilisi and forced to seek refuge in the USA where he resides to this day. A united Ukraine, IMHO, is a thing of the past, under any leadership. The brutal regime in Kiev has seen to that.

Quote:
It must be noted that the symbolism in parading the troops as they were in Moscow July 1944[1] is a very strong emotional tactic. This really in one stroke, puts things in perspective for the average babushka and beer belly joe. It not only conveys a firm grasp of history in the resistance, but a setting of the parameters of discussion.

If readers don't know what's being noted here, take a deep thought. In July of 1944 captured Nazi troops were marched through the city of Moscow to the contemptuous derision of the citizenry. Poroshenko made a big mistake to be boasting about "marching through Donetsk on the 24th of August" and this is what he got in return. Tough shit, (friend of) Nazis. Eat your words.

They made a clear reference to what was their position BEFORE the ethnic cleansing by the Kiev regime. Those days are gone.

Quote:
No federalization can be possible today. There is time for everything. We asked for the federalization 3 months ago, then we asked for a permission to hold a referendum. That time has passed, now we want to live independently.”

Very impressive. The junta must be crapping little chunks of chocolate by now. As they should.

Wed, 2014-08-27 00:49

#20

ikosmos

Sorry, the link for the Saker piece is over here..

Supplemental: For anyone interested, Human Rights Watch has confirmed, some time ago now, that the Ukrainian regime was using unguided rockets to kill civilians.

Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians

HRW wrote:
(Donetsk) – Unguided Grad rockets launched apparently by Ukrainian government forces and pro-government militias have killed at least 16 civilians and wounded many more in insurgent-controlled areas of Donetsk and its suburbs in at least four attacks between July 12 and 21, 2014, Human Rights Watch said today.

The use of indiscriminate rockets in populated areas violates international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, and may amount to war crimes.

Wed, 2014-08-27 00:54

#21

kropotkin1951

6079_Smith_W wrote:

The irony is, it is the main smear being made by the real Nazis.

And who would those be. Please provide sufficient evidentiary basis for your response.

I guess calling all Russian speakers in the Easten Ukraine that support the new govermet Nazis is okay. Its not like tarring all Jewish people as potential Israeli citizens.

Wed, 2014-08-27 01:14

#22

6079_Smith_W

Pierre C yr wrote:

Theres not much to that video.

Besides, I don't think they can top the high-quality ones that someone produced which went viral back in the spring, strangely enough, shortly before the uprising started.It's the first place I saw the "Donetsk Republic" flag - in passport form.

I posted it here in April:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3qoVvep_Y

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/pro-kremlin-viral-video-imagines-ukrain...

(edit)

Cross-posted with you, kropotkin.

When I say the real Nazis, I mean the real Nazis. Stormfront, Daily Stormer, David Duke, and the like. I've mentioned it before, as just one example of how this talk of Nazis being in control of Ukraine is completely absurd.

I won't post the links here, but if you are interested and can't find what I am talking about, send me a PM and I'll forward you a few examples of what I am talking about.

Wed, 2014-08-27 01:19

#23

kropotkin1951

6079_Smith_W wrote:

When I say the real Nazis, I mean the real Nazis. Stormfront, Daily Stormer, David Duke, and the like. I've mentioned it before, as just one example of how this talk of Nazis being in control of Ukraine is completely absurd.

So if I have it right it is not all right to talk about the US in relation to the Ukraine because you believe it is not relevant but you want to talk about Daily Stormer and David Duke. Don't you see the disconnect?

Wed, 2014-08-27 01:33

#24

6079_Smith_W

Sorry, but that is about as clear as mud.

My point is that actual Nazi and fascist organizations don't see the Ukrainian government as one of their own. They see it as a Jewish plot. That goes for U.S., European, and Russian right-wingers. In fact, a number of the European ones came at Putin's invitation to Crimea.

There is no connection between that and the fact that the Poroshenko government had nothing at all to do with setting up Guantanamo Bay.

Wed, 2014-08-27 05:15

#25

Slumberjack

Quote:
Actually I said that because I'm not accusing ikosmos of being intentionally racist. But if asking for a ruling on material I find uncomfortable is being a jerk, then fine, I'm a jerk.

I'm uncomfortable with the things I see in some of the CNN and CBC articles on just about anything, along with the comments that follow. You've been known to darken our thoughts with links to the NY Times and the WSJ. You don't see us running off to the complaint department.

Wed, 2014-08-27 07:28

#26

Webgear

Slumberjack wrote:

Webgear wrote:
Hopefully navigation classes are provided to the new fledging army as soon as possible.

Sounds like they're already on familiar ground.

Well, we know their Russian military advisors are all ready familiar with navigating in parts of the Ukraine.

Wed, 2014-08-27 12:53

#27

ikosmos

Lavrov: talks the only way to find out if eastern regions want to be part of Ukraine

S. Lavrov, Foreign Minister of Russian Federation wrote:

"We are now convinced that everything possible must be done to ensure that they sit down at the negotiating table and start moving from an urgent ceasefire to trying to hear each other. Until they sit down we won't be able to understand whether they will be able to live together or not," Lavrov said at the Seliger 2014 youth forum.

"Unless a political dialogue is launched with the participation of all regions, we will never be able to understand whether it is realistic or unrealistic for the Ukrainians to reach an agreement. And when the current Kyiv authorities say, 'We will start a dialogue but not before Donetsk and Luhansk lay down their arms, and if they don't we'll try to achieve our goals in a military way,' it is an absolutely irresponsible attitude because when one says to people, 'Surrender first, and then we'll see what to do with you,' it sparks a chain reaction," the minister said.

Wed, 2014-08-27 12:57

#28

ikosmos

Novorossiya Military Briefing – Situation by August 25, 2014

Quote:
In the course of the offensive operation, the militia forces have completely destroyed the government military base in Sedovo, and routed all the enemy checkpoints around Sedovo and Novoazovsk. There’s an ongoing sweep of these two cities for remaining Junta forces. Taking control of Novoazovsk will open a direct road to Mariupol for the DPR army forces, and we plan to take this city in the near future.

They really are conducting themselves like a government. Nice to see. What a difference in motivation between those who are defending the land they live on, versus mercenaries and underpaid, disrespected conscripts.

Encirclement worked against the Nazis in Stalingrad and its working now against these new neo-Nazis. They are called "cauldrons" now. No wonder they marched the captured soldiers down the middle of the street (and washed it afterwards, of course!).

There are reports now in the Ukrainian press that women will be forcibly conscripted. No, I am not kidding.

A trial balloon, perhaps, but also a sign that the wheels are coming off this brutal regime.

Wed, 2014-08-27 13:06

#29

ikosmos

Novorossiya Shall Be!

Quote:
We are currently witnessing an epic and in its own way historic event. The Ukrainian regular army and the punitive battalions are suffering a catastrophic defeat to the south of Donetsk. Only a short time ago the Republics were in dire straits: the DPR was hanging only by a thin supply thread, which the Ukrainian army was attempting to sever near Shakhtersk and Krasnyi Luch; the summit of Saur-Mogila has been abandoned, and Bolotov’s counteroffensive had failed to bring decisive victories.

Wow! Never underestimate things like home field, good morale, and a just cause for military victories.

Quote:
After this disaster it became absolutely clear that the Junta does not have the capacity to destroy Novorossiya. By squandering the most combat-capable brigades in systematic offensive operations, the Junta sustained enormous losses and at the same time suffered a crushing, purely military defeat. The southern front has collapsed. Novorossiya shall exist!

from the comments ...

Quote:
The morale of the Army of Novorossiya (militia) and the willingness to fight to the death, to pour their own blood into the soil where their grandfathers once fought the Nazis, has armed them with an invincibility. They fight with joy. They are truly a brotherhood, a family of Slavs protecting all that is Russian. This remarkable advantage is a multiplier effect. Small units can conquer larger, better armed units of Ukies.

As for the nazis and criminals of the national guard and death squads, the only equipment they need is track shoes to beat their hasty retreats.

ooh rah!

Wed, 2014-08-27 13:24

#30

MegB

Forgive me for not getting a hard-on for all things military, the glory of righteous battle, etc., but how will this change anything? Scores more people will die, infrastructure will be destroyed, and in the end the status quo will more or less be maintained under one form of government or another. Little or nothing positive will be gained for the Ukraine people. There are no Che Gueveras or Hugo Chavezs in this war as far as I can see.

Wed, 2014-08-27 13:45

#31

ikosmos

MegB wrote:

Forgive me for not getting a hard-on for all things military, the glory of righteous battle, etc., but how will this change anything? Scores more people will die, infrastructure will be destroyed, and in the end the status quo will more or less be maintained under one form of government or another. Little or nothing positive will be gained for the Ukraine people. There are no Che Gueveras or Hugo Chavezs in this war as far as I can see.

They're putting an end to the ethnic cleansing. Furthermore, given the regime's jackboot refusal, so far, to negotiate a peaceful settlement, the DNR has to MAKE THEM COME TO THE TABLE. A decisive military victory by the self-defense forces can lesson the number of casualties - especially the civilian victims of the regime - overall by shortening the duration of the conflict. Furthermore, the DNR fighters are much less likely to destroy their own infrastructure than the regime in Kiev was.

Sometimes, you have to fight for the right to live in peace. It is still living memory in Donetsk of the last Western attempt to exterminate the local population. This is, perhaps, almost impossible for a Canadian who has never suffered the horrors of war and/or invasion to truly appreciate.

People like Che or Hugo Chavez developed in the course of time, struggle, and conflict. They are not born; they are made. Give it time, and such people may well emerge. And who is to say their name is not Svetlana or Natasha?

And why draw attention to those that are considered heroic in the conflict ... so that the enemy might more easily target them?

Wed, 2014-08-27 13:48

#32

6079_Smith_W

MegB wrote:

There are no Che Gueveras or Hugo Chavezs in this war as far as I can see.

Though in the real world, in the long run, there never is. The situation still needs to be resolved.

Reminds me of a quote I read in Rolling Stone decades ago: "Even Mick Jagger isn't as good as Mick Jagger."

Wed, 2014-08-27 13:49

#33

Slumberjack

MegB wrote:
Forgive me for not getting a hard-on for all things military, the glory of righteous battle, etc., but how will this change anything? Scores more people will die, infrastructure will be destroyed, and in the end the status quo will more or less be maintained under one form of government or another. Little or nothing positive will be gained for the Ukraine people. There are no Che Gueveras or Hugo Chavezs in this war as far as I can see.

People can scarcely remember a time when plans set into motion by Washington and Wall Street were rolled back. Certainly our so called government and opposition parties haven't provided anything to pump our fists in the air about, except as an expression of outrage. So there's that. Scores will die either way this situation rolls because of these plans, and people here on the board have been saying all along that this is not the way international relations should be managed in the first place. The primary concern is about the impact of war, and secondary to that is the criminal attitudes of the political establishment in Ottawa who are cheerleading this chaos in league with the criminals in Washington. This is a tragedy and a calculated mistake and we've said so. The only change I can see is that a new regime of oligarchs will reap the benefits from Eastern Ukraine's resources. The Bidens will have to re-invest someplace else.

Wed, 2014-08-27 13:55

#34

ikosmos

Slumberjack wrote:
The only change I can see is that a new regime of oligarchs will reap the benefits from Eastern Ukraine's resources. The Bidens will have to re-invest someplace else.

The gritty determination of Canadians returning from war in '45 had a substantial influence on the social policy of the government of the day. What was then called Unemployment Insurance, for example, was established in '46. There's no reason to think that the DNR fighters who just put their lives on the line will be any less determined ... and that will be a counterweight to oligarchs of whatever kind. But that is a new battle of a different kind.

Wed, 2014-08-27 14:07

#35

Slumberjack

ikosmos wrote:
But that is a new battle of a different kind.

I was beginning to wonder about the loss of ground in recent weeks, particularly the question of where all the firepower was coming from on the Nationalist side to cause this to occur, but of course it makes sense now since the briefing that they pulled back where they could in order to organize better equipped regular army formations from the smaller militia companies.

Wed, 2014-08-27 14:12

#36

6079_Smith_W

And for all this talk of blood and these nonsense claims of genocide, let's remember that hundreds of people were killed, tortured and disappeared since last fall - several hundred are still missing - and Ukraine held back from any response for months. What finally drove them to take military action was far from the status quo; it was when it became clear that things were not going to stop at the annexation of Crimea. And even then it soldiers were loathe to fight their own people.

But how long would any country be expected to do nothing while elected representatives are assassinated, soldiers are shot, and people are disappeared and tortured?

Wed, 2014-08-27 17:26

#37

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:
But how long would any country be expected to do nothing while elected representatives are assassinated, soldiers are shot, and people are disappeared and tortured?

OK, so these things - which you haven't bothered to provide a shred of evidence about, I might add - are the basis of a justification for phosphorus bombing of civilians, ballistic missiles in residential neighbourhoods, targetting the water supply and electricity (in Crimea, the Ukrainian junta, out of sheer spite cut off the water, destroying a mass of much needed crops), shooting down the Malaysian airliner, sniper fire in the Maidan, incinerating peaceful protestors in Odessa, much the same in Mariupul, spiteful attempts to delay or altogether stop humanitarian aid, etc, etc. ?

Wed, 2014-08-27 18:19

#38

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos, I am recapping from several months of posts in the Ukraine thread - things I have had to repeat quite a few times. I'm assuming most people are up to speed, but if you want the sources, and don't want to go back and look them up, PM me. A lot of people had been killed before Ukraine actually started fighting back in earnest - just before the presidential election.

For that matter, there are links about the fake phosphosous bomb claims, the Maidan snipers, and the Odessa fire you might want to read as well.

Thu, 2014-08-28 11:55

#39

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:

ikosmos, I am recapping from several months of posts in the Ukraine thread - things I have had to repeat quite a few times. I'm assuming most people are up to speed, but if you want the sources, and don't want to go back and look them up, PM me. A lot of people had been killed before Ukraine actually started fighting back in earnest - just before the presidential election.

For that matter, there are links about the fake phosphosous bomb claims, the Maidan snipers, and the Odessa fire you might want to read as well.

The Nazi lovers out of Kiev are claming there is a Russian "invasion". They haven't provided a shred of evidence, of course. Why don't you just show us all the evidence of this, latest whopper?

lol. Good luck.

Thu, 2014-08-28 13:26

#40

Slumberjack

If there was evidence other than propaganda bulletins out of Kiev, it would be splashed all over the western corporate MSM already. They're so desperate to hype the news of a Russian invasion, that the picture accompanying CBCNewz.ca's blaring headline this morning about the Russians having invaded Ukraine showed a long column of Ukrainian armoured vehicles, flying the Ukrainian flag lol. The reader is apparently meant to put two and two together - the large font screaming headline with the word 'invasion,' and the column of APCs and tanks that don't even belong to Russia, and conclude that yes the invasion of Eastern Ukraine by the Russian Armed Forces is actually on.

Thu, 2014-08-28 13:33

#41

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
A lot of people had been killed before Ukraine actually started fighting back in earnest - just before the presidential election.

Started fighting back? The government in Kiev is the product of an orchestrated, bloodsoaked coup that some regions didn't accept as having any legitimacy. Those regions were told to knuckle under or else. The 'or else' arrived on their doorsteps. Who is fighting back?

Thu, 2014-08-28 13:46

#42

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

The Nazi lovers out of Kiev are claming there is a Russian "invasion". They haven't provided a shred of evidence, of course. Why don't you just show us all the evidence of this, latest whopper?

Feel free to change the subject, but if you want the information (which I did provide) you can drop me a line.

As for the whopper, captured Russian soldiers, an admission months ago that Russian regular forces were in Crimea, dead soldiers turning up in Russia with no explanation, and equipment that has been traced back to the Russian military is some evidence.

As for the suspension of belief necessary to think that the Donetsk People's Republic forces can become invisible and fly through the air to the coast, I have no answer for that one.

(edit)

And @ SJ

Bloodsoaked coup? I know about 600 people were killed and missing at the hand of Yanukovich's police, but please back up that statement. I know Yanukovich claimed he was afraid of being shot at as an excuse when he skipped town, but what are you refering to?

Do we really need to go back over all this again? I have posted this already.

Thu, 2014-08-28 13:51

#43

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Feel free to change the subject, but if you want the information (which I did provide) you can drop me a line.

I can read the MSM propaganda just as well as you can. But I choose to read more than that, which is why I come to rabble.ca in the first place. Maybe you should just head over to reddit and be done with it.

Quote:
As for the whopper, captured Russian soldiers, an admission months ago that Russian regular forces were in Crimea, dead soldiers turning up in Russia with no explanation, and equipment that has been traced back to the Russian military is some evidence.

Let's take this one at a time.

1. 10 captured soldiers. I'm not entirely convinced, but border patrol is good enough. Where is the equipment? You call this an invasion? I have some land in Florida for you.

2. Crimea is now part of Russia. Forever. Why not have Russian soldiers there? Especially when the brutal regime in Kiev cut off the water supply to spite the residents? About that, of course, you have nothing to say. And how could you? How would you justify cutting off the water to civilians, just as the junta has done in Dontesk and anywhere else they can hurt the citizenry.

3. Dead Ukrainian soldiers, like the hundreds that have fled INTO Russia, is no surprise. EVen the OSCE has substantiated Russians claims of Ukrainian bombing of Russian territory. They got bombed themselves.

4. The Ukrainian regime has plenty of Russia - hell Soviet era - equipment. This proves ... nothing.

Nice try. Wanna go for Double Jeapardy where the scores can really add up?

[/quote]

Thu, 2014-08-28 13:54

#44

Slumberjack

So, from the picture we're getting from you, the peaceful Maiden groups just shoved flowers into the rifle barrels of Yanukovich's anti-democratic storm troopers, which subsequently caused them and Yanukovich's administration to all melt away and flee from the scent, and since there was no government anymore, it was merely a case of it being a shitty job that someone had to do?

Thu, 2014-08-28 14:15

#45

6079_Smith_W

As for who was being murdered, and who is still missing from the Maidan protests, go back and read about it SJ.

And Vladimir Putin has admitted having regular Russian forces, with their identification removed, in Crimea while it was still part of Ukraine. I just re-posted this yesterday.

The military leader (recently retired) of the rebels is a Russian security agent who did similar work in the Balkans and Chechnya. Their vice president is likewise one of their fixers. The forces include not just Russian soldiers on vacation, but an entire battalion.

Thu, 2014-08-28 14:39

#46

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:
The forces include not just Russian soldiers on vacation, but an entire battalion.

This is a complete and utter fabrication.

Thu, 2014-08-28 14:52

#47

Slumberjack

When I served in army field units we all went on vacation at the same time. At the tactical unit level it does little for overall operational readiness to have different groups of soldiers away on vacation at different times throughout the year, and so every regiment or battalion had alternating blocks of time set aside to get everyone away at once. A brigade would have an immediate reaction unit available for short notice contingencies, after which, units on leave would be subject to recall in the event that further reinforcements were needed, depending on the situation.

Thu, 2014-08-28 15:12

#48

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And Vladimir Putin has admitted having regular Russian forces, with their identification removed, in Crimea while it was still part of Ukraine. I just re-posted this yesterday.

Yes, as I understand it, they were already in Crimea as part of their regular garrison duties pertaining to Russia's Black Sea bases, and were mobilized to deal with the threat of Ukraine throwing it's lot in with NATO, and all of the consequences that would have brought to Russia via the overall strategic posture in the Black Sea and Southern Russia. You have to recall the word 'enemy' being bandied about within the American political establishment concerning Russia, and the eastward expansion of NATO into former Warsaw Pact countries despite reasurrances to the contrary. The latest Ukrainian gambit on the part of the western bloc led by Washington and London presented an understandable national security crisis to the Russian side. As well, with NATO's intent to deploy an ABM shield into Eastern Europe to counter the supposed "Iranian threat," the prospect of this being extended into Ukraine would be similar on the strategic nuclear ledger of things to Russia's placement of nukes in Cuba in the early 60s, and the Americans seemed intent on starting WWIII over that one.

Thu, 2014-08-28 15:42

#49

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:
The forces include not just Russian soldiers on vacation, but an entire battalion.

This is a complete and utter fabrication.

Vostok is their name, ikosmos. I posted footage of one of them flashing his passport months ago.

And no, SJ. Go back and read the interview with Vladimir Putin. He admitted the soldiers without insigna were Russian, and they were not there on regular duties. They were there to maintain control.

Thu, 2014-08-28 15:51

#50

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And no, SJ. Go back and read the interview with Vladimir Putin. He admitted the soldiers without insigna were Russian, and they were not there on regular duties. They were there to maintain control.

I said they were on regular duties, until mobilized. So they were already working and living on the Crimean peninsula, and were subsequently assigned other tasks.

Thu, 2014-08-28 16:37

#51

6079_Smith_W

Patroling the streets and blocking access to the Ukrainian Naval and Air Force bases is regular duties?

Storming the hotel were journalists are staying claiming to be lookign for somethihg is regular duties?

http://www.vice.com/vice-news/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukraine-p...

Taking action while masked and without identification is regular duties?

They were deployed, and they were not all forces that had been originally stationed in Crimea.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26532154

Putin initially denied that they were soldiers. He claimed they were local self-defence forces.

Only later did he admit they were Russian army, and that their mission was to lay the groundwork for the referendum:

Quote:

And so we had to take the necessary measures in order to prevent the situation in Crimea unfolding the way it is now unfolding in southeastern Ukraine. We didn’t want any tanks, any nationalist combat units or people with extreme views armed with automatic weapons. Of course, the Russian servicemen did back the Crimean self-defence forces. They acted in a civil but a decisive and professional manner, as I’ve already said. It was impossible to hold an open, honest, and dignified referendum and help people express their opinion in any other way.

http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/7034

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/putin-ukraine_n_5165913.html