Malaysian plane crash

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Mon, 2014-08-25 16:33

Unionist

Slumberjack wrote:

swallow wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Exactly. And the same applies to the shameful speculation throughout this thread, where everyone picks their favourite ally/villain and generates uninformed theories and "evidence" accordingly.

Absolutely. Not that it's going to stop, of course.

Isn't it kind of shabby to accuse people of not caring about the victims of imperialism? Is this really called for?

Sure it's shabby. But please show me, slowly as if speaking to someone learning to speak post-structuralese, where exactly you see that? The only comment I made about "not caring" was with respect to the Taiwan air crash.

My personal accusation was that people repeat stuff they don't really understand based on which "side" they're on, instead of demanding rigorous investigation and the best answers available on the evidence. I repeat that accusation.

Mon, 2014-08-25 17:13

#353

6079_Smith_W

@ kropotkin

I made some quite specific references, actually. Not all were directed at me personally.

But really, how many accusations of the kind you mention have you seen?

(and yes, I saw that NDPP just got called a scatological name)

And @ Unionist

I agree, actually - especially on this "who benefits" argument that some have tried to float. Part of the reason why I suspect this is more than likely a horrible mistake rather than the plot some are talking about.

And while we're talking about picking sides, I'm not sure how the victims of this horrible tragedy, while certainly casualties of war, have suddenly become someone's political foil as "Victims of Imperialism". I suspect it isn't a reference to Russian Imperialism.

Mon, 2014-08-25 17:14

#354

kropotkin1951

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But really, how many accusations of the kind you mention have you seen?

Many. It is more common in these threads on the Ukraine than being called a Nazi supporter for supporting the newest corrupt oligarchy in Kiev. Pay attention to the abuse doled out to NDPP by your peers in the Russia haters club.

Wed, 2014-08-27 01:11

#355

ikosmos

Apology from Netherlands to Russian President Putin for the despicable Russophobic propaganda regarding flight MH17

Quote:

Dear Mr. President Putin,

Please accept our apologies on behalf of a great many people here in the Netherlands for our Government and our Media. The facts concerning MH17 are twisted to defame you and your country.

We are powerless onlookers, as we witness how the Western Nations, led by the United States, accuse Russia of crimes they commit themselves more than anybody else. We reject the double standards that are used for Russia and the West. In our societies, sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. The way you and your Nation are convicted for ‘crimes’ without evidence, is ruthless and despicable. You have saved us from a conflict in Syria that could have escalated into a World War. The mass killing of innocent Syrian civilians through gassing by ‘Al-‐Qaeda’ terrorists, trained and armed by the US and paid for by Saudi Arabia, was blamed on Assad. In doing so, the West hoped public opinion would turn against Assad, paving the way for an attack on Syria.

Not long after this, Western forces have built up, trained and armed an ‘opposition’ in the Ukraine, to prepare a coup against the legitimate Government in Kiev. The putschists taking over were quickly recognized by Western Governments. They were provided with loans from our tax money to prop their new Government up. The people of the Crimea did not agree with this and showed this with peaceful demonstrations. Anonymous snipers and violence by Ukrainian troops turned these demonstrations into demands for independence from Kiev. Whether you support these separatist movements is immaterial, considering the blatant Imperialism of the West.

Russia is wrongly accused, without evidence or investigation, of delivering the weapons systems that allegedly brought down MH17. For this reason Western Governments claim they have a right to economically pressure Russia. We, awake citizens of the West, who see the lies and machinations of our Governments, wish to offer you our apologies for what is done in our name. It’s unfortunately true, that our media have lost all independence and are just mouthpieces for the Powers that Be. Because of this, Western people tend to have a warped view of reality and are unable to hold their politicians to account. Our hopes are focused on your wisdom. We want Peace. We see that Western Governments do not serve the people but are working towards a New World Order. The destruction of sovereign nations and the killing of millions of innocent people is, seemingly, a price worth paying for them, to achieve this goal. We, the people of the Netherlands, want Peace and Justice, also for and with Russia. We hope to make clear that the Dutch Government speaks for itself only. We pray our efforts will help to diffuse the rising tensions between our Nations.

Sincerely,

Professor Cees Hamelin

(representing the membership of De Ommekeer)

Better late than never.

Wed, 2014-08-27 01:54

#356

6079_Smith_W

Cees Hamelink is a professor at the University of Amsterdam, and De Ommekeer is a Dutch political news site:

http://ommekeer-nederland.nl/

The letter was signed by several dozen professors.

Some background worth noting, is relations between the country are very strained, including the arrest of a Russian diplomat for domestic abuse, and an attempt by the mayor of a Dutch town to deport Putin's daughter.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24448147

Though it is not the only media that has apologized on behalf of its government:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/25/novaya-gazeta-mh17-russia_n_5...

Thu, 2014-08-28 11:57

#357

ikosmos

The Causes of the MH17 Crash are “Classified”. Ukraine, Netherlands, Australia, Belgium Signed a “Non-disclosure Agreement”

Quote:
Thus, it is safe to assume the results of the investigation are actually classified and the final expert opinion will not be released. (or only after a few years, when the political causes of the disaster will lose their relevance).

The conclusion is simple – the intermediate results of the investigation directly prove the innocence of Russia and/or the Donesk militia.

About this, all the noisy Russophobic Cold Warriors will have .... nothing to say.

Thu, 2014-08-28 12:14

#358

Slumberjack

The MSM by and large had hit the mute button on the killing of all those innocent air travellers, along with the shelling of towns and cities in Eastern Ukraine by Kiev's forces, but are now spilling forth anew with bulletins regarding another wave of the ongoing Russian invasion. You'd think the first waves of the invasion would have made it all the way to Paris by now judging by the timeline of when we were first informed of their passage across the Ukrainian border. Our media are nothing more than propaganda megaphones.

Thu, 2014-08-28 12:42

#359

6079_Smith_W

That's all very nice, but maybe this wailing about coverup and conspiracy should wait until the Dutch Safety Board has released its findings.

And Slumberjack, if you want you can book a flight and do a juggling act at the crash site in the hopes you'll get some press. I don't think there are going to be any breaking stories until that report comes out, though.

As for your conspiracy theory, this is from the BBC, yesterday:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28956790

Do i need to do this every time someone mentions the western mute button? Do you not have google on your computer?

It's a lot easier if you are making things up, I admit, but sorry, real news coverage doesn't work that way.

And I think it is someone else who has claimed the southern front has already taken Maruipol.

Thu, 2014-08-28 12:44

#360

ikosmos

Slumberjack wrote:
The MSM by and large had hit the mute button on the killing of all those innocent air travellers, along with the shelling of towns and cities in Eastern Ukraine by Kiev's forces, but are now spilling forth anew with bulletins regarding another wave of the ongoing Russian invasion. You'd think the first waves of the invasion would have made it all the way to Paris by now judging by the timeline of when we were first informed of their passage across the Ukrainian border. Our media are nothing more than propaganda megaphones.

I really like what the lead Minister of DNR said in his press conference. He was asked about Russian military units and replied:

DNR Prime Minister, Zakharchenko wrote:
"If you think that Russia is sending its regular units here, then let me tell you something. If Russia was sending its regular troops, we wouldn't be talking about the battle of Evenovka here. We'd be talking of the battle of Kiev or a possible capture of Lvov.

Now there is a war on our soil for our territory. We have an influx of volunteers from all over the world. Of course, the Russian help would be very desirable, but from a political point of view it is impossible and unrealistic. Thanks, by the way, to European countries. You do not acknowledge this war just as you did not acknowledge the Great Patriotic War, didn't you?

Zakharchenko has acknowledged that there are 3-4,000 Russian volunteers, among many other nationalities (eg French soldiers that he complimented in his remarks) fighting alongside/with the DNR regulars. He's made no secret of this. However, this is vastly different from actual Russian military units, just as volunteers to republican Spain were vastly different from those countries sending their military units to help the struggling Republic.

Thu, 2014-08-28 13:11

#361

Slumberjack

Unionist wrote:
Sure it's shabby. But please show me, slowly as if speaking to someone learning to speak post-structuralese, where exactly you see that? The only comment I made about "not caring" was with respect to the Taiwan air crash.

swallow wrote:
So, ikosmos, do you think your thread has turned out to be more sensitive to the victims than the Ukraine thread was?

swallow wrote:

Unionist wrote:
Exactly. And the same applies to the shameful speculation throughout this thread, where everyone picks their favourite ally/villain and generates uninformed theories and "evidence" accordingly.

Absolutely. Not that it's going to stop, of course.

You see there was that, followed by the other thing. Or in other words, the statements taken together introduce a perceived assumption, theme, or bias into the conversation, which is problematic because there does not appear to be a foundation to the statement regarding sensitivity. It amounts to an illegitimate construct.

Thu, 2014-08-28 13:57

#362

ikosmos

6079_Smith_W wrote:
That's all very nice, but maybe this wailing about coverup and conspiracy should wait until the Dutch Safety Board has released its findings.

So you agree that the Ukrainian regime should have a veto over the publication of the findings? Because that is what the article shows. An interested party - one that is being blamed for the downing of the aircraft - is given a veto over publication and you have nothing to say.

Christ, this is easier than shooting fish in a barrel.

Thu, 2014-08-28 14:24

#363

6079_Smith_W

Not really. When you have anything of substance that indicates they might be withholding information, feel free to post it. That is kind of hard to do before they have even released the report.

And the report cannot assign blame in any case, so I'm not sure what the concern is.

Thu, 2014-08-28 14:43

#364

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Not really. When you have anything of substance that indicates they might be withholding information, feel free to post it. That is kind of hard to do before they have even released the report.

And the report cannot assign blame in any case, so I'm not sure what the concern is.

So you're of the opinion that if the investigators had in their possession shrapnel from a buk missile warhead with a Russian serial number on it that we'd be still waiting for that report?

Thu, 2014-08-28 16:03

#365

6079_Smith_W

The BUK is made in Russia. They all have Russian serial numbers.

Here's a list of crashes and the subsequent report dates. It hasn't been two months since the MH17 crash, less since the handing over of the black box, and only a few weeks since they have had access to the site.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/reports_aviation.html

Perhaps you were expecting them to wrap it al up over burgers and fries, but actually they are within the reasonable deadline of one month for preliminary reports:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/08/14/mh17-preliminary-repo...

Quote:

The Netherlands investigation into the destruction of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine on 17 July will be released in the first week of September.

Such interim or preliminary reports usually work to a 30 day reporting deadline under ICAO rules, however the formalisation of the transfer of authority to conduct the investigation from Ukraine to the Netherlands took some time to nail down, and its release early next month appears fully compliant with the intentions of those rules.

Thu, 2014-08-28 21:40

#366

NDPP

Death And Lies: The Only Truth of Flight MH17 - by Philip Butler

http://rt.com/op-edge/183132-only-truth-flight-mh17/

"Logic demands we ask: 'Or did they know?' I mean did the American administration 'really know' who killed all those people?

We are witnessing one of the biggest travesties of foreign policy ever perpetrated on Earth.

While some may argue I am being sensationalistic here, consider Hillary Clinton on TV minutes after a mass murder blaming Russia for the crime..."

Thu, 2014-08-28 22:31

#367

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Slumberjack wrote:

So you're of the opinion that if the investigators had in their possession shrapnel from a buk missile warhead with a Russian serial number on it that we'd be still waiting for that report?

Yes. The warhead blew into thousands of small pieces so like it was suppose to so there would be no serial number to point to Russia exclusively. They will have shrapnel and probably do have shrapnel from whatever hit MH17 and they will be able to identify it (BUK, air t air missile, 30mm cannon, whatever). Are you demanding to see it now if they have it?

I'm sticking with the rebel BUK crew shooting in degraded tracking mode at high flying targets thinking they were tracking a high flying Ukrainian transport aircraft theory.

I haven't heard if they've recovered and identified the flight crew bodies that were in the cockpit at the time of impact. They would most defiantly have evidence of whatever hit MH17 in them because they were within a few meters of it when it went off. We'll just have to wait for the full report to come out. It will all be in there not that everyone here will believe it when it comes out.

Fri, 2014-08-29 14:01

#368

kropotkin1951

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

We'll just have to wait for the full report to come out. It will all be in there not that everyone here will believe it when it comes out.

I would expect that at least parts of the report will considered classified by at least one of the governments involved and only a heavily redacted edition will be made public. That is if they release any report at all to the public.

Fri, 2014-08-29 15:35

#369

ikosmos

Why hasn't the brutal regime from Kiev released the communication data between the plane and the air traffic controllers? Or do they have something stuck in their eye?

What a fraud.

Fri, 2014-08-29 22:18

#370

NDPP

Russia Urges UNSC to Stop 'Speculation Around MH17 Flight'

http://rt.com/news/183524-mh17-investigation-churkin-unsc/

"During a meeting of the 15 member council where the topic of MH17 has been brought up again, Russia's ambassador to the UN has demanded an end to 'speculation around the downed Malaysian aircraft.'

'So far only Russia transparently and significantly contributed to the investigation of the tragedy. From the other side we hear only half-hints and no information,' said the diplomat, once again wondering if Kiev was planning to release the recording of Ukrainian air-traffic controllers that guided the MH17 flight..."

Sat, 2014-08-30 01:35

#371

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

The tapes will come out with the report.

You're obsessed with air traffic controller tapes but refuse to believe the phone tapes of the rebels talking about them shooting down flight MH-17 and ignore their leaders big social media fuck up boasting about it.

What exactly do you think are on those tapes besides normal air controller operations?

Sun, 2014-08-31 02:00

#372

NDPP

This is old territory we've already been over...

Audio 'Proof' of Ukrainian Rebel Responsibility for Malaysian Flight Downing is Fake - by Justin Raimondo

http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/07/18/audio-proof-of-ukrainian-rebel-respon...

Kiev Censors MH17 Air Traffic Control Recordings

http://youtu.be/ND-4RgakhJw

MH17 Drew Attacks of World's Media Away From the Israeli Invasion of Gaza

http://www.4thmedia.org/2014/07/mh-17-drew-attention-of-worlds-media-awa...

"MH17 was shot down over a region where Russian-speaking separatist forces have been battling against the alliance of the Ukrainian armed forces and a private mercenary force answerable to a Ukrainian-Jewish [Israeli] billionaire oligarch..."

Sun, 2014-08-31 09:45

#373

6079_Smith_W

Again with this shit? So Kolomisky shot down MH17 too so he could help distract from Israel 's attack on Gaza?

Quote:

Ihor Kolomoisky, the Ukrainian-Israeli mafia oligarch, whose is known as the «Chameleon»

Kolomoisky chooses to «command» his army from the safety of Switzerland, far from the front lines and relatively safe from arrest if his ties to terrorist attacks are ever pursued by legitimate governmental authorities.

Kolomoisky has a powerful «insurance policy» against any legal recriminations. He counts on the powerful Israel Lobby in the United States to support his cause.

Kolomoisky has publicly spoken of Ukraine as the «second homeland» of the Jewish people.

Again from the "Strategic Culture Foundation". Gotta love the subtext - that as a Jew, he's not really Ukrainian at all. One would think the aspiration of a nation being a safe place for the Jewish community would be a good thing. Here it sounds like a threat of takeover.

I have to wonder is this racist vitriol because they see him as a threat, because they see every Jewish person as part of the International Jewish "movement", or because he dared to call Vladimir Putin "shorty"?

Sun, 2014-08-31 14:35

#374

NDPP

Or perhaps also because he is a critical central political figure, one of the richest Oligarchs in Ukraine, backer of the Ukrainian ultra-nationalist right, media magnate, Governor of Dnepropetrovsk, associate of Petroshenko, Biden jr AND has been cited for critical involvement in the MH17 shoot-down and ATC coverup...as well as an unrepentant Zionist and Israeli dual citizen. As such he is more than worthy of being designated a person of interest in this dirty business and coverage and investigation. Furthermore if you're looking for Jew-haters you're more likely to find them among those you apparently support than anyone here..

Sun, 2014-08-31 15:08

#375

NDPP

Russia Demands Publication and Recordings From Downed Flight MH17

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11065413/Russia-...

"...The Boeing catastrophe throws up more and more questions. But lately not many people are talking about this,' Anatoly Antonov, deputy defense minister told RIA news agency.

'Why have the data still not been published about the conversations between the air traffic controllers and the pilots of the Boeing? Why haven't the data been presented from the international investigation of the black boxes? Who doesn't want this to happen?

Mr Antonov said Russia had established that a Ukrainian SU-25 military aircraft was in the vicinity of the Malaysian airliner. 'Where is the transcript of recordings of conversations between the pilot of this plane and his command? How did a military aircraft come to be alongside a civilian one?'

'If people are saying today that a rocket was fired from the ground towards the military plane, then I'd like to look that military pilot in the eye who used a civilian plane as cover, if of course that's what happened,' Mr Antonov said.

Mr Antonov said his ministry was pressing for answers about the tragedy from the United States, Ukraine and European countries..."

Sat, 2014-09-06 08:19

#376

NDPP

Sinister Pretext For War With Russia - by Mike Whitney

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/04/sinister-pretext-for-war-with-rus...

"...The preponderance of evidence suggests...that MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian fighters in an effort to frame the pro-Russia separatists and demonize them by implication.

This is precisely why the MH17 story has vanished from all the major media for the last three weeks.

It's because the bloody finger-prints point to Obama's puppet government in Kiev..."

Sat, 2014-09-06 10:52

#377

6079_Smith_W

The Guardian. Yesterday.

What a dumbass.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/04/mh17-crash-investigation-re...

For that matter, CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/04/world/europe/mh17-initial-report/

And here's 30 minutes ago. The Malaysian PM wanting to send in a new search team before winter:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-29094730

I'm sure there's no chance the delay could be because the rebels refused access to the site, laid mines along the road to it, tampered with evidence, removed material, stole personal items and reused dead people's credit cards, and have stalled handing over evidence and bodies.

Nah, can't be that. It has to be the part of the evil western conspiracy.

Sat, 2014-09-06 10:53

#378

6079_Smith_W

"Ultra nationalist right"? He formerly supported The Fatherland Party, and now is believed to support UDAR.

And I'm not talking about criticism for his politics or his actions. I'm talking about slurs against him because he is Jewish, racist talk of the "world Jewish movement" and the other things I have already mentioned.

The article mentions (as supposed evidence of Nazism) Svoboda, which was elected and sitting in the Rada long before Poroshenko was elected (and ran their own presidential candidate who got less that two percent of the vote) and Right Sector, which is on shaky terms with the government and in fact opposes their entire pro-European platform.

That and conspiracy theories about Israel controlling Schiphol airport and having a copy of the MH17 airplane stashed in a secret hangar somethere, and supposed plots to blow up dams.

Sat, 2014-09-06 11:44

#379

kropotkin1951

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I'm sure there's no chance the delay could be because the rebels refused access to the site, laid mines along the road to it, tampered with evidence, removed material, stole personal items and reused dead people's credit cards, and have stalled handing over evidence and bodies.

Nah, can't be that. It has to be the part of the evil western conspiracy.

So now your posts contain your own version of events while you post links to articles that do not support your version. How disengenious of you.

I don't bother reading CNN shit but the two British sites had this too say about the delays.

Guardian wrote:

Searches of the crash site were halted on 6 August amid concerns that fighting in the area posed a threat to searchers.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/04/mh17-crash-investigation-re...

BBC wrote:

The search has been suspended since early August due to heavy fighting in the area.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-29094730

Sat, 2014-09-06 12:45

#380

ikosmos

Did Major Countries Agree Not to Disclose Key Details in Downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17?

Democracy Now interviews Stephen Cohen

Democracy Now wrote:
Professor Stephen Cohen says new reports raise questions about why the Malaysia Airlines flight carrying 298 people exploded and crashed in eastern Ukraine, killing everyone on board. "There seems to have been an agreement among the major powers not to tell us who did it," Cohen says. While U.S. and Ukrainian officials say the Boeing 777 was shot down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile, it is unclear who fired the missile. "There are reports from Germany that the White House version of what happened is not true, therefore you have to look elsewhere for the culprit who did the shooting down," Cohen notes. "They’re sitting on satellite intercepts. They have the images. They won’t release the air controller’s conversations in Kiev with the doomed aircraft. Why not?"

Stephen Cohen wrote:
There are reports from Germany that the White House version of what happened is not true, therefore you have to look elsewhere for the culprit who did the shooting down. They’re sitting on satellite intercepts. They have the images. They won’t release the air controller’s conversations in Kiev with the doomed aircraft. Why not? Did the pilot say—let me speculate—"Oh, my god, we’re being fired on by a jet fighter next to us! What’s going on?" Because we know there were two Ukrainian jet fighters. We don’t know, but somebody knows. You might ask—you might get somebody on who’s been investigating this to find out what they actually know.

Yes, we know that for the transmission belt that is Western mass media, there is no longer any interest in this story. They have other fish to fry, and they don't really give a shit about 300 dead civilians. Russophobia is the main thing, and when the evidence is beginning to point strongly towards responsibility in the direction of the Ukrainian Nazi puppet regime, then the sudden loss of interest makes perfect sense.

Sat, 2014-09-06 13:00

#381

6079_Smith_W

No. Just presuming that you have been following the conversation and can remember things.

Everything I mention, from the delays to the stolen credit cards is stuff I have posted with links on this thread. Just go back 14 posts for one example. The war didn't make them hold back info, prevent access, rummage through the site, steal things or lay mines.

Ukraine is a signator to the landmines treaty, by the way.

More importantly, I figured you could grasp the main point I was answering - that there is some western media conspiracy blackout.

That would be the very reason why I posted CNN's report, seeing as they are one of the most conspiratorial of the conspirators.

As another example, here's the FOX News report, eight hours ago. Feel free to point out that you aren't going to read it either, if you think is is something we really need to know:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/06/mh17-crash-malaysia-to-send-team...

Sat, 2014-09-06 13:04

#382

6079_Smith_W

I guess I'm just curious as to why a number of you continue to post these lies every couple of days, even though I have no problem finding examples that the crash is still being covered, and very likely will get a lot more coverage once that report is released later this week.

Sat, 2014-09-06 16:09

#383

kropotkin1951

Thanks for that 6079. A new low even for you. Your post at 377 is full of lies and distortion but not in the news coverage just in the words you added. News stories released on a Friday afternoon before a long weekend are a favourite in BC for allowing the MSM to put things on page 10 under the Walmart ads. Of course those stories are also covered in the press and anyone who implies there is no coverage is a liar.

Sat, 2014-09-06 21:23

#384

6079_Smith_W

Right.

Too bad that didn't apply when I corrected the same lie on a Wednesday (Aug 21) with a news story published on a Tuesday (Aug 16), or a repeat of the same lie on a Thursday (Aug 28) with a story published one day before (a Wednesday).

Mon, 2014-09-08 09:29

#385

sherpa-finn

I have no idea what any of this means, but its getting some animated play on Twitter today and seems to be the sort of article that stokes the conversation here ... so just sharing without comment.

Images Show the Buk that Downed Flight MH17 Inside Russia, Controlled by Russian Troops

New evidence has been found that shows the Buk missile system that was used to shoot down MH17 on the 17th of July came from Russia, and was most likely operated by Russian soldiers. Using videos posted by locals in Russia’s Belgorod region back in June it has been possible to identify the Buk missile launcher seen in Ukraine on July 17th as part of a convoy of Buk missile launchers. It has also been possible to identify the Russian brigade the Buk is likely to have belonged to, and who may have operated the Buk missile launcher when it was in Ukraine...

https://bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/

Mon, 2014-09-08 10:17

#386

Unionist

sherpa-finn wrote:

I have no idea what any of this means, but its getting some animated play on Twitter today and seems to be the sort of article that stokes the conversation here ... so just sharing without comment.

Unbelievable... I've analyzed all the images on the site as carefully as I can (my tools are obviously limited and I haven't had enough time) - and to my astonishment, I found this:

I can't quite reproduce it here (still working on it), but if you carefully apply an azure filter and just stare at the upper-right quadrant, you may eventually detect what I saw: the Twin Towers!

Now, I'm not drawing any firm conclusions yet. There's lots of work to be done. I'm just putting this out there as an observation. Hopefully others with more expertise and available technology will be able to make sense of all this.

As for me, just colour me gobsmacked! #WhatReallyHappened #AmIseeingThings #Truth

Mon, 2014-09-08 11:18

#387

sherpa-finn

Aaah, Unionist. For someone who makes such prodigious use of sarcasm and irony on these very pages, you should not be so harsh to those who follow your emminent lead. #juststirringthepot #twinsseparatedatbirth

Mon, 2014-09-08 11:49

#388

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

.. I saw a yeti...

Mon, 2014-09-08 11:49

#389

Slumberjack

Quote:
I can't quite reproduce it here (still working on it), but if you carefully apply an azure filter and just stare at the upper-right quadrant, you may eventually detect what I saw: the Twin Towers!

Sarcasm? I think his real intent is to keep Fidel's memory here alive.

Tue, 2014-09-09 08:07

#390

Slumberjack

The preliminary report doesn't reveal the smoking gun people were looking for, which can only mean one thing around here. It's quite obvious that Putin did it.

Tue, 2014-09-09 08:21

#391

Webgear

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/09/09/mh17_crash_likely_caused_by_objects_penetrating_aircraft_from_outside_report.html

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was likely struck by multiple "high-energy objects from outside the aircraft," causing it to break up over eastern Ukraine, a preliminary report into the deadly aviation disaster concluded Tuesday.The report by the Dutch Safety Board stopped short of saying the Boeing 777 was shot down by a missile, but its findings appear to point to that conclusion. It also did not say who might have been responsible.

It seems most news articles are reporting the same story.

Tue, 2014-09-09 08:22

#392

Unionist

sherpa-finn wrote:

I have no idea what any of this means, but its getting some animated play on Twitter today and seems to be the sort of article that stokes the conversation here ... so just sharing without comment.

Unbelievable... I've analyzed all the images on the site as carefully as I can (my tools are obviously limited and I haven't had enough time) - and to my astonishment, I found this:

I can't quite reproduce it here (still working on it), but if you carefully apply an azure filter and just stare at the upper-right quadrant, you may eventually detect what I saw: the Twin Towers!

Thanks for this incredible find, sherpa-finn!!

As for me, just colour me gobsmacked! #WhatReallyHappened #AmIseeingThings #Truth

Tue, 2014-09-09 08:28

#393

Webgear

Slumberjack wrote:

The preliminary report doesn't reveal the smoking gun people were looking for, which can only mean one thing around here. It's quite obvious that Putin did it.

I don't think the safety board would ever place blame on either side for several valid reasons.

Each side delayed and denied the investigators an opportunity to conduct a proper investigation. Blame needs to be place on both sides of the conflict.

Tue, 2014-09-09 08:30

#394

Unionist

Ok, it's been many years since high-school physics, but I have never heard of "high-energy objects".

Do they mean high velocity? High force (mass times acceleration)? High momentum (mass times velocity)?

Not saying it's wrong. Just saying I have no clue what it means, and have never heard this expression. I've heard of high-energy drinks. Personalities. Not objects.

Whassat, anyone?

Tue, 2014-09-09 08:38

#395

Slumberjack

It could be explosive shrapnel or cannon rounds. Either way it means high kinetic energy impacting against little more than the sheet metal that the plane's fuselage is made of. People seem to have made up their minds anyway. It's similar to Bob Cole's style of play by play announcement, which was only rarely interfered with by whatever was going on down at ice level.

Tue, 2014-09-09 08:39

#396

Webgear

I think they are referring to the shrapnel from the missiles as "high-energy objects". I have never heard of the term used before for bullets or cannon shells.

I am assuming the news reporters are using incorrect terminology because they are not conducting proper research on the subject.

I have heard the term "high energy projectiles" before but never high-energy objects".

Tue, 2014-09-09 09:42

#397

Slumberjack

High energy objects could mean they originated from an explosion, or from the barrel of a cannon, Either way, kinetic energy is produced.

Tue, 2014-09-09 10:09

#398

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

It's shrapnel from a missile they are talking about. No aircraft, if they were there, got close enough (Russia said 3 to 5 KM) to use their cannons with any amount of accuracy.

Now the question is the shrapnel pellet like or rod like in shape. Air to air missiles use rod shaped (nail shaped) shrapnel warheads while surface to air missiles use pellet shaped shrapnel warheads.

As is well known here, my bet is its pellet shrapnel from an SA 11 BUK (And contrary to what some here keep claiming my analysis is not based on politics) .

Tue, 2014-09-09 12:14

#399

kropotkin1951

Webgear wrote:

Slumberjack wrote:

The preliminary report doesn't reveal the smoking gun people were looking for, which can only mean one thing around here. It's quite obvious that Putin did it.

I don't think the safety board would ever place blame on either side for several valid reasons.

Each side delayed and denied the investigators an opportunity to conduct a proper investigation. Blame needs to be place on both sides of the conflict.

Our Transportation Safety Board also never places blame because its role is to find causes not intent. Most accidents are just accidents and knowing the cause can help prevent further accidents. That is why we have the TSB. If something is not an accident then it needs to be dealt with under a criminal investigation. Usually in Canada the RCMP opens a file at the same time as the TSB on any major accident. If it is an accident then the RCMP file gets filed away.

Tue, 2014-09-09 12:33

#400

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

The cockpit floor...

Tue, 2014-09-09 19:25

#401

6079_Smith_W

The Dutch Prosecutor's office opened a criminal investigation back in mid-July. I believe it is in one of the articles posted upthread.

As for the Safety Board's report, one of the people interviewed on CBC this afternoon (I was driving, didn't get the name) said that from the position of the plane and the direction of the shrapnel they should eventually be able to pinpoint the location of where the missle was fired within a few hundred meters.

And a BBC news program interviewed people in the area of the crash who saw a BUK system operated by Russian soldiers, not locals.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29109398

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