There's a choice to be made: Stop discriminating, adapt and keep going
The evidence of who currently attends Michfest shows that they made this choice.
Michfest and Defending Women's Culture and Spaces.
Thu, 2014-09-11 12:55
#52
Thu, 2014-09-11 14:24
#53
Timebandit
Yes, they have. Like all choices, there are consequences that come with that decision.
Thu, 2014-09-11 18:39
#54
If exclusion is the only way to preserve the space, then perhaps it's time to change it.
But they are not being excluded. Trans women openly attend the festival and are fully welcomed as sisters and work on crew.
I thought the issue had been settled and everyone would be happy about it. I did not know that there were still objections from some other trans women and their supporters.
This is obviously not going to be a celebratory thread and it's continued existence only serves to cause more strife between women here.
We are already divided and sensitive over the prostitution debate. I get the feeling that the very existence of this thread is deeply offensive and upsetting to some participants, even hurtful in a personal way.
Michfest isn't an important enough topic to me in this venue to justify that. There are other approaches to discussing women's spaces and culture without touching on Michfest. If we continue the discussion here "Michfest" keeps coming up in active topics remaining a constant aggravation.
If I could just delete the thread I would.
Thu, 2014-09-11 18:43
#55
Actually, Pondering, timebandit and I are generally in agreement with you in the prostitution debate.
Thu, 2014-09-11 19:06
#56
Actually, Pondering, timebandit and I are generally in agreement with you in the prostitution debate.
Oh yes I know. My point was only that prostitution is worth debating even if it is divisive in general because it's current and has a widespread impact.
Michfest on the other hand is a music festival that I believe is significant but it is not an issue central to feminism. I just used it to open up a thread on women's spaces and culture and acceptance.
This is a strange place. There are lots of undercurrents that I don't understand. Something is wrong here, I mean in this thread. I may not entirely get it but I am quite sure there is something going on that is not good.
Thu, 2014-09-11 21:43
#57
Actually its more about gay rights than feminism since is its a lesbian centric event
Thu, 2014-09-11 22:24
#58
Timebandit
I think Bacchus is right. On the other hand, acceptance of trans women is an important feminist issue because we are now faced with overcoming prejudices and some old thinking. Look at Michfest as a sort of microcosm. I think feminism has to continue to adapt and part of that will be, IMO, abandoning essentialism in its many forms.
As for me, I'm not taking any of this personally. I'm neither trans nor lesbian. I just hate inconsistency and essentialism is a pet peeve. I'd also never heard of Micfest before. I really have no dog in this fight, other than the abstract principle of the thing.
Thu, 2014-09-11 22:32
#59
With respect to the festival, yes Bacchus is right.
But the discrimination we are talking about here is women not being recognized as women. It is not about their orientation.
Thu, 2014-09-11 23:39
#60
I meant in respect to the festival, not the underlying issue of the very transphobic organizers of Michfest
Fri, 2014-09-12 01:10
#61
I think feminism has to continue to adapt and part of that will be, IMO, abandoning essentialism in its many forms.
As I understand it, when feminism was a white and WASPy movement, women of colour didn't stand shouting and banging at the door to be let in. Or pursue public jihads against specific targets. They went and created their own feminism, which ultimately informed and improved the larger movement. Nevertheless, there are still white and WASPy feminists. And always will be.
Fri, 2014-09-12 06:21
#62
It would be odd if there weren't, non? Unless there are no more white people, or people defined as WASPs (the term is often misused). I don't think feminism was ever entirely white and waspy, either, except in countries where there were few people of other origins.
Originally, this term was only applied to people of that ethnicity and of the ruling class; it did not refer to Anglo-Saxons (or sometimes, anglicized Celts) who were poor "dirt" farmers, resource or industrial workers etc.
The first mention evidently has the W denote "wealthy" and not "white", which is an an absurd pleonasm.
Fri, 2014-09-12 10:28
#63
good thing i'm not a feminist because i definitely do not believe in erasing women's shared experience by those stating they find it hurtful for women to do this and i wouldn't want people to disparage feminists based on the fact that i call bs on the whole trying to silence women who were born women.
Fri, 2014-09-12 11:26
#64
Timebandit
quizzical, they're not trying to silence them, trans women are just being asked to be invited to the party. The "women born women" are acting like a mean girls clique.
Fri, 2014-09-12 13:01
#65
quizzical, they're not trying to silence them, trans women are just being asked to be invited to the party. The "women born women" are acting like a mean girls clique.
But trans women are invited to the party and they are openly attending and they are being embraced as sisters without reservation.
Fri, 2014-09-12 13:31
#66
Hmm I wouldnt say without reservation, given the organizers confused comments
Fri, 2014-09-12 14:01
#67
Timebandit
Yeah... I don't think we can say without reservation. See inconsistency pointed out upthread.
Fri, 2014-09-12 14:34
#68
Well I hope we can conclude that here at babble women are women regardless of trans status.
Fri, 2014-09-12 18:46
#69
It would be odd if there weren't, non? Unless there are no more white people, or people defined as WASPs (the term is often misused). I don't think feminism was ever entirely white and waspy, either, except in countries where there were few people of other origins.
Originally, this term was only applied to people of that ethnicity and of the ruling class; it did not refer to Anglo-Saxons (or sometimes, anglicized Celts) who were poor "dirt" farmers, resource or industrial workers etc.
The first mention evidently has the W denote "wealthy" and not "white", which is an an absurd pleonasm.
I was aware I was probably misusing the term when I really just wanted to convey white & middle class. I like its onomatopoeic qualities though. 
Fri, 2014-09-12 20:06
#70
It did NOT refer to home children.