Harper joins U.S. in Iraq, with support of Liberals

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Pondering, how can you accuse others of being elitist? You have wirtten that Canada should help the Kurds, but that no one should expect you to have ever considered stepping up to do so. What is more elitist then to tell everyone that you and those close to you are too valuable to go oeverseas.

I never suggested I or anyone else is too valuable to go overseas. As Paladin mentioned, the people going are experts in combat that have spent years, probably decades, developing their expertise. This is their profession. I don't believe that they are evil or stupid people and I am grateful to them because evil does exist.

I consider myself to be a fairly average Canadian in terms of knowledge of politics and history and world events. That means my knowledge is spotty and my awareness of a lot of modern history depends on what was happening in my life at the time. In my opinion people like myself are the majority and we decide who wins the election and politicians worry about what we feel strongly about. They lull us with treats,deceive us on the economy, and prey on our fears. Incumbants hope we don't get upset over something big, challengers hope that we do.

When activists have protests it is people like myself that they are trying to sway. They are trying to convince me there is an issue so grave and/or so unjust that I must take a stand and force the government to comply.

The left portrays the government as a malevolent entity controlled by the oligarchy who seek to exploit us. The right portrays it as malevolent entity controlled by the intelligentsia intent on social engineering.

Everyone tries to manipulate us and prey on our emotions and sense of morality. How could you support military action that kills people! How could you leave innocent women and children to be raped and murdered!

Politically, ALL the parties are out to manipulate or lure me not educate me.

Everyone thinks I should listen only to them because they are the experts and so obviously right and I am too ill-informed to have the right to an opinion even as they try to persuade me to share theirs.

That's K51's position. I'm not entitled to an opinion because the issues are way too complex for me to evaluate without knowing more history. I must study first. It's the same message sent from the right. The issues are way too complex plus there are secrets only the PM and top advisors can know. I can't possibly know enough to judge. So basically everyone just wants my blind support and if they don't get it they put me down.

That is why I can accuse others of being elitist. It frustrates me to see the attitudes of the right reflected in the left.

I am not a stupid person or one without conscience or the ability to reason. I'm an average voter. I'm not as far left as most people here but I am far left of center and open to social justice issues. I may not have the knowledge that many of you have on various issues but that doesn't mean I am without insight or don't have a valuable perspective to offer. More people like me than people like you determine the future. Realistically, we are not all going to study activist's issues. 

To have a revolution in a relatively wealthy democracy requires finesse and respect for the majority.

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Pondering, how can you accuse others of being elitist? You have wirtten that Canada should help the Kurds, but that no one should expect you to have ever considered stepping up to do so. What is more elitist then to tell everyone that you and those close to you are too valuable to go oeverseas.

I never suggested I or anyone else is too valuable to go overseas. As Paladin mentioned, the people going are experts in combat that have spent years, probably decades, developing their expertise. This is their profession. I don't believe that they are evil or stupid people and I am grateful to them because evil does exist.

I consider myself to be a fairly average Canadian in terms of knowledge of politics and history and world events. That means my knowledge is spotty and my awareness of a lot of modern history depends on what was happening in my life at the time. In my opinion people like myself are the majority and we decide who wins the election and politicians worry about what we feel strongly about. They lull us with treats,deceive us on the economy, and prey on our fears. Incumbants hope we don't get upset over something big, challengers hope that we do.

When activists have protests it is people like myself that they are trying to sway. They are trying to convince me there is an issue so grave and/or so unjust that I must take a stand and force the government to comply.

The left portrays the government as a malevolent entity controlled by the oligarchy who seek to exploit us. The right portrays it as malevolent entity controlled by the intelligentsia intent on social engineering.

Everyone tries to manipulate us and prey on our emotions and sense of morality. How could you support military action that kills people! How could you leave innocent women and children to be raped and murdered!

Politically, ALL the parties are out to manipulate or lure me not educate me.

Everyone thinks I should listen only to them because they are the experts and so obviously right and I am too ill-informed to have the right to an opinion even as they try to persuade me to share theirs.

That's K51's position. I'm not entitled to an opinion because the issues are way too complex for me to evaluate without knowing more history. I must study first. It's the same message sent from the right. The issues are way too complex plus there are secrets only the PM and top advisors can know. I can't possibly know enough to judge. So basically everyone just wants my blind support and if they don't get it they put me down.

That is why I can accuse others of being elitist. It frustrates me to see the attitudes of the right reflected in the left.

I am not a stupid person or one without conscience or the ability to reason. I'm an average voter. I'm not as far left as most people here but I am far left of center and open to social justice issues. I may not have the knowledge that many of you have on various issues but that doesn't mean I am without insight or don't have a valuable perspective to offer. More people like me than people like you determine the future. Realistically, we are not all going to study activist's issues. 

To have a revolution in a relatively wealthy democracy requires finesse and respect for the majority.

Pondering, your reply is nonsense.

Paladin1 wrote:

 

Sending advisor to teach the Kurds how to protect themselves isn't a bad thing.

 

This made me laugh.  What will we teach the Kurds?

I haven't yet sorted out how to paste in the new babble, but I found these to be interesting reads:

opendemocracy.net  -  "A new kind of freedom born in terror" by Yvo Fitzherbert, August 26, 2014

links.org.au/node/4002  -  "Kurds mobilize to fight Islamic State over vast front" by Dave Holmes, August 12, 2014

Forgot that I'm a new poster to some. In case it's not clear: I oppose intervention, and think it is a very bad idea. The West has been providing solutions in the Middle East for some time now, and it seems to me to always be the cause of the next disaster.

I also think it's kind of arrogant to think we have much to teach the Kurds. If you read the articles I posted (again, sorry for the format), we might find there are things we could learn, though.

Paladin1 wrote:

Ripple wrote:

Forgot that I'm a new poster to some. In case it's not clear: I oppose intervention, and think it is a very bad idea. The West has been providing solutions in the Middle East for some time now, and it seems to me to always be the cause of the next disaster. I also think it's kind of arrogant to think we have much to teach the Kurds. If you read the articles I posted (again, sorry for the format), we might find there are things we could learn, though.

 

 ISIS attacked a numerically superior enemy at over 1:37 odds  who had sophiscitaed weapons and cut through them with ease. 

The Kurds recognize they need help and they are also asking for it.

Fine, let them get it from someone else. Canada has not interest in this.

ISIS is just pure evil. I think someone has to do something regardless.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

 Canada has not interest in this.

Sadly our PM does.

Not just our PM but many Canadians too.

Quote:

He wouldn't be the first political leader to see his numbers climb by jumping on the war bandwagon.

The conservatives rode the yellow-ribbon train to victory during Afghanistan under the guise about being 'for the troops. I think Canadians are on to that trick now though.

"a site where progressives can discuss strategy and developments"

This I agree is sorely lacking, and yes I agree that respect is tantamount!
There`s no point in hostility to normal Canadians totally blindsighted by the Orwellian media we are saturated with...

Re strategy...first we must challenge the right of the zionists to finance ISIS through their oil trade agreements. This is documented.

What material support is Canada supplying to the rebel groups in Syria which are in alliance with ISIS?

This is a clear violation of international law, crimes against the Peace re Nuremburg, and we must support any legal initiative to take Canada to the World Court! Not to mention Canada´s courts which deny the right of any Canadian institution to support terrorism.

Not to mention Canada´s charitable zionist organizations raising funds for the criminal activities of their zionist state! 

iyraste1313 wrote:

There`s no point in hostility to normal Canadians totally blindsighted by the Orwellian media we are saturated with...

Thank-you for that. Part of strategy is going to have to be rethinking how to reach people. Gathering one or two line facts would help people put what is happening in perspective. I'd like to know more facts about our participation in the arms industry.

Brilliant political cartoon, Unionist. The hypocrisy is nothing new but the concurrent juxtaposition is just gobsmacking.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/11/syrian-rebels-isis_n_5806386.ht...

“If the international community doesn’t intervene soon, I expect the FSA will flee -- or we’ll all be beheaded,” .....

“The blood of Syrians is on the hands of the international community,” al-Helo boomed, the men around him nodding in agreement....

They blame the United States and its allies, whose promises of support have failed to materialize in the past, for the rise of the Islamic State. And they don’t know how much longer they’ll last battling two formidable enemies. 

“ISIS has grown so big because no one did anything,” said Abdullah Shama, a middle-aged fighter with a commanding presence who was the oldest in the room. “It’s the making of the outside world. We, the FSA, are dying.”

...

“It may be too late to provide effective support, at least quickly,” Austin Long, a professor of security policy at Columbia University, told The WorldPost. “The worst situation would be to dump a lot of weapons on the rebels when they are weak. This would be a golden opportunity for the Islamic State to concentrate attacks on them in order to seize the weapons (as happened with the Iraqi Army).”

“At best a flow of money for recruitment and extensive training of those recruits could then produce a force capable of making use of new weapons and potentially U.S. air support to fight the Islamic State."

......

The group of fighters gathered in the Turkish border town said they usually make roughly $50 a month. But they’ve heard that Islamic State fighters can make $600 or more....

“Some leave because they need to help their families survive, and ISIS is well-funded,” explained Abu Ahmed. He calls himself a manager for the Hazem Movement, which reportedly has been supplied with a small number of anti-tank missiles from the West. “And because they fear ISIS. They aren’t traitors.”

Ali Rasheed, a 24-year-old former regime soldier who joined the FSA two and a half years ago, lamented his situation. “ISIS has salaries, good salaries they can live on,” he complained. He came to Turkey for a few days to recover after being shot in the chest fighting the regime. “They have food, equipment, someone looking out for their needs. They have oil. We are in the middle of battle and it’s a catastrophe. We are lacking many things.”

Canada Signs Up For Washington's New Mideast War  -  by Keith Jones

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/09/13/cnda-s13.html

"No one should give any credence to the Harper government's pledge that the CAF will not be involved in a 'combat mission' in Iraq, or that Canada will not join military action against Syria..."

¨Part of strategy is going to have to be rethinking how to reach people......¨

This is not the key problem!
A day of wreckoning is soon upon us.....except for the finance capitalists and their corporate elites and especially the war mongers, the populations continues to suffer more, and yet the final crisis, which may now be looming, is still to come.

We cannot reach the vast majority lost in the matrix of the mass media entertainment with words and ideas...it will come where it hurts, joblessness, homelessness and violence, hunger and sickness from the crap they call food in canada.

The key problem rests in the fact that people of conscience, with spiritual/ideological  values beyond the pursuit of money are lost in the delusions of representational totally corrupted democracy and totally disunited to prepare the suffering people with real alternatives!

This war against ISIS is a distraction to continue the delusions and lack of alternative

re montrealer 58...you missed the point entirely...I referred to representational democracy as obviously opposed to direct democracy in some form or other.

My logic stands...you vote for a rep who is beholden to his or her financiers, his or her party elite who in turn is controlled by their financiers, either directly or through corporate unions, and all under the control of the corporate media starting in canada with the CBC financed through the tar sands lobby, the nuclear lobby, etc.

I appreciate your passion for justice and democracy, may it lead to some real solutions to bring justice and democracy to Canada.

Anyone who belives we have justice and democracy in Canada, should take a few moments to walk outside and feel the real world....

And yes I plan soon to return to canada back to pass through the BC west coast which is soon to become a nuclear waste sacrifice zone, and travel on up into the mountains to feel  death  at the hands of the party support for the corporations which have made a sacrifice zone out of traditional Shuswap territory

I did read your link NDPP but I also went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army for a nutshell over view.

The mid east is a brutal complex place. The Western world has been very complicite in creating the conditions that encourage brutality. In almost all cases I agree that intervention is wrong. The US has a responsibility towards Iraq because they broke it recently. I'm sympathetic to the Kurds but I would not send ground troops at this time. Advisors and equipment I would.

Pondering wrote:

I did read your link NDPP but I also went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army for a nutshell over view.

The mid east is a brutal complex place. The Western world has been very complicite in creating the conditions that encourage brutality. In almost all cases I agree that intervention is wrong. The US has a responsibility towards Iraq because they broke it recently. I'm sympathetic to the Kurds but I would not send ground troops at this time. Advisors and equipment I would.

And the drums of war continue to be beat by self-identifying "progressives", at Rabble, Canda's, "Progressive" website.

Right.

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

And the drums of war continue to be beat by self-identifying "progressives", at Rabble, Canda's, "Progressive" website.

Right.

If you want to discuss me you can do it here:

http://rabble.ca/babble/introductions/pondering#comment-1457330

Or if your concern is the type of posters permitted here this thread my suit you better but they don't want to talk about me either so you would have to keep it general.

http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/current-mess-and-addition-new-f...

 

Another nonsesnse reply Pondering; good job!

ETA: I'll tell you why its nonsense, Pondering.

In a recent post, you told me you aren't a Pacifist. Yet, you speak about the use of Ground Troops. Lets think about this.

You have also said you would advise anyone not to join the CF. And you said, you would never join the CF. The ONY conclusion that can be dranwn form your own words is that you want others to endanger their lives, and do your fighting, for you. You expect them to go off and serve, but feel no moral obligation to do so yourself and none of your currently posted words, no concern for their ultimate welfare. What that says to me is you lack Character, and the courage of your conviction. You are "all hat, and no cattle". If you don't understand that saying, ask Trudeau.

Yeah, you stay at home. In the Field, the only person's back you'd have is your own. As a 20 plus year CF Naval Vet, I consider your stance, to say the least, objectionable. It is objectionable, and a perfect display of how not to meet your obligations as a Canadian Citizien. But its OK, you are welcome for my years of service watching your back while you slept in your warm, dry, safe, bed. Yeah, yeah, I know, I shouldn't expect any thanks, etc., blah, blah, insert counter argument here. Stop posting links directing me how to respond, and try speaking for yourself, directly, without the double-speak and clever banter, just for once.

Arthur Cramer wrote:

 

And the drums of war continue to be beat by self-identifying "progressives", at Rabble, Canda's, "Progressive" website.

Right.

isn't there something we all agree to when we sign up to rabble that says the parameters include some basic starting points - like not supporting warism, racism, sexism, etc?   

there is a lot of that bullshit here now, dragging the conversation down to "should we or should we not support harper's warmongering". 

no, no we should not.

I am still on the side of helping the Kurds, but I have been reading and I am being influenced. I am not alone in this thread for wanting to help the Kurds. We are not bad people for this. At the very worst we are naive.

At this point westerners have swamped the Mid East with weapons and used factions against one another and trained terrorists etc. ad infinitum. Pakistan is a nuclear power.

Even if we could stop shipping all weapons tomorrow and washed our hands of the area it would still be a mess and they would still hate us with enormous passion and they would stil want to destroy us.

The "do nothing" alternative doesn't seem like a solution.

Arthur, it didn't occur to me that you would choose to continue attacking me in this thread. I will copy and respond to all of your attacks from this thread here: http://rabble.ca/babble/introductions/pondering#comment-1457330

Moving my response to the following to the Current Mess thread at http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/current-mess-and-addition-new-f...

eastnoireast wrote:

isn't there something we all agree to when we sign up to rabble that says the parameters include some basic starting points - like not supporting warism, racism, sexism, etc?   

there is a lot of that bullshit here now, dragging the conversation down to "should we or should we not support harper's warmongering". 

no, no we should not.

Paladin1 wrote:

I don't think anyone is safe from these people.

No one is safe from lightning either, but if you live in North America, you are much more likely to be killed by lightning than by ISIS, or as you so charmingly put it "these people".

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

I don't think anyone is safe from these people.

No one is safe from lightning either, but if you live in North America, you are much more likely to be killed by lightning than by ISIS, or as you so charmingly put it "these people".

Is that a Robert Downing Jr reference?

Lots of people over there  running for their lives and would probably love to take their chances with lightning at the moment.