MH17 Broke Up in Mid Air Due to External Damage - Dutch Preliminary Report (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/186256-malaysia-airlines-probe-report/
"The initial results of the investigation point towards an external cause of the MH17 crash. More research will be necessary to determine the cause with greater precision..."
After reading the report I have discovered that someone shot down the plane and that they have the following areas to study further. I guess that is why it is called preliminary. In fact this tells us nothing we didn't know. The best is yet to come.
This report is preliminary. The information must necessarily be regarded as tentative and subject to alteration or correction if additional evidence becomes available. Further work will at least include the following areas of interest to substantiate the factual information regarding
:•detailed analyses of data, including CVR, FDR and other sources, recorded onboard the aircraft;
•detailed analyses of recorded ATC surveillance data and radio communication;
•detailed analyses of the meteorological circumstances;
•forensic examination of wreckage if recovered and possible foreign objects, if found;
•results of the pathological investigation;
•analyses of the in-flight break up sequence;
•assessment of the operator’s and State of Occurrence’s management of flight safety over a region of conflict or high security risk;
•any other areas that are identified during the investigation
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rap...
Well you did get your transcript of the control tower conversations (page 15) with ML14 which proved a pretty much routine flight in progress.
Well you did get your transcript of the control tower conversations (page 15) with ML14 which proved a pretty much routine flight in progress.
Absolutly routine until someone shot at it. Although I still think in hindsight the whole air space (below any weapons range) should have been restricted as it was after the event. Hell even ducks and geese can figure that idea out.
Dutch Preliminary MH17 Crash Report Leaves Too Many Questions - Russia
http://rt.com/news/186812-mh17-report-russia-churkin/
"...With so many blank spots, Russia would like to see more transparency and less 'mystery' surrounding the investigation. One has to state that a truly international investigation hasn't been held to this day,' Churkin concluded."
Since Russia is still pushing the SU-25 shoot down scenerio I'll post this one more time for your consideration.
The Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 30mm cannon
This is the cannon mounted on the SU-25. The SU-25 has two of them mounted in a dual version called the GSh-30-2. The 2 is for how many barrels are on the gun.
Please note the following data about this weapon:
The gun's maximum effective range against aerial targets is 200 to 800 meters and against surface or ground targets is 1,200 to 1,800 meters.
The SU-25 would have to have gotten less than 1 KM of ML-17 to use it's cannons on it. This is well below the 3 to 5 KM Russia claims, based on thier own radar data, the mystery SU-25 got to ML-14 in thier news brief.
ML-17 had to have been hit by a missle, no cannon ever got close enought to really engage it.
30 Million bounty offered for information on who shot down MH17?
The fraud investigation company Wifka has been charged with investigating the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17. Their client is providing 30 million dollars as a reward for information and evidence. On July 17 the Malaysian Airlines boeing crashed over Eastern Ukraine on their way from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. All 298 passengers and crew were killed.
After the terrible assassination or "accident" all political parties, at home and abroad, said they owed it to the victims, their families and the public to clarify the circumstances of the crash and present evidence for what happened. None of this has yet been done.Wifka wants to know:
– Who shot down MH17 on July 17?
– Who gave the order?
– Who covers up the shoot down? (Also, if it was by accident and not out of political, economic or military motivation)
– Who can provide details on the circumstances that led to the shoot down?
– Who was directly involved with the shoot down?
– What happened to the people that were involved with the shoot down? What happened to the weapon used?
- Who can name the people that cleared the shoot down?Whoever provides evidence that identifies those behind the shoot down, will be given the reward of 30 million dollars. The money is securely deposited in Zurich, Switzerland. It will be paid there or in a different neutral place of the whistle-blower’s choice.
Wifkas client offers to give the whistle-blower a new identity.
Wifka works absolutely confidential. The agency advises whistle-blowers to take great care; e.g. to contact them through a lawyer. Details should not lightly be given away in emails or on the phone. A secure way of communication will be established for every individual case.
What will be entertaining, even amusing, to watch will be how one odious view will trump another. Of course, I mean that I expect Russophobia will be trumped by good, old-fashioned greed. Let the haters cannibalize each other.
There is no information there on who the client is.
Careful what you wish for...
There is no information there on who the client is.
... which is probably wise. Otherwise, it might be cheaper for the perpetrators to shoot down one more plane.
Or flush out witnesses.
Careful what you wish for...
Those who had the most to benefit from shooting down the aircraft, in all likelihood, shot it down. Western media can lie till the cows come home, but 30 million bucks is a big motivator for some disrespected, underpaid Ukrainian soldiers who just took a horrible military thrashing from some under-equipped, but highly motivated, independence-minded rebels.
In saying that this is going to be entertaining, I don't want to disrespect the memory of those killed in this heinous war crime.
And if rebels start comming forward with infomation thier side did it, what then?
30 million is a lot of money.
Whoever ordered it and whoever did it is probably already dead as part of the coverup. Whoever starts asking questions to try and get the 30 mil is likely to end up dead too if they start getting close to the truth.
My guess is the truth will never be known with any degree of certainty.
My guess is the truth will never be known with any degree of certainty.
In the PREVIOUS instance in which the Ukrainian military shot down a passenger jet, eventually the two sides settled and cash was paid by the Ukrainian regime. The manner in which this payment was made was such that the Ukrainian regime had some flimsy, but useful, deniability about it all. No one with a brain believed the nonsense, but some of these sorts of settlements can be made murky by secret arrangements.
For Canadian hockey fans, eg. , the Bertuzzi/Moore court case, 10 years on, was recently finally settled. Some estimate that Moore was paid anywhere from 10 to 60 million dollars. A huge range, yes I know. Problem is, it was secret. And that's the problem.
By the time the Ukrainian authorities pay up this time around, if they do, the political propaganda has already done its dirty work, no one is around to apologize, and the next Western Russophobic provocation is up to bat. That's how these things work.
Meanwhile, there are so many responsible parties, never minding that the aircraft was shot down in a war zone, that families of the victims would have to be zillionaires to afford to independently get to the bottom of things. Not very likely.
BTW, here is a link on the previous Ukrainian "accidental" shooting down of a Russian civilian airliner.
12:01AM BST 13 Oct 2001Ukraine finally admitted yesterday that its military shot down a Russian airliner that crashed into the Black Sea last week, killing all 78 passengers and crew.
Evhen Marchuk, the chairman of Ukraine's security council, conceded that the plane had probably been brought down by "an accidental hit from an S-200 rocket fired during exercises".
Russian investigators believe a missile exploded near the plane, spraying it with shrapnel. Russian and Israeli scientists found metal pellets in the victims and in the fuselage.
Vladimir Rushailo, the chairman of Russia's security council, said: "The investigation has found that the disaster resulted from a strike by a warhead from an anti-aircraft missile."
Although both Russia and Ukraine were almost certainly aware of the cause from the start, it took eight days for Ukraine to accept responsibility.
Daily Telegraph story in which Ukraine admits it shot down a Russian civilian airliner.
Yeah and who was shooting down aircraft in the warzone, Ukraine? I don't think so. One of them, a military transpot aircraft, was hit at 21,000 feet just days before ML-17 was hit as 33,000 feet.
I had forgotten about that one, but when it happened I don't think there was much doubt or debate about who was responsible. Like when the Soviets shot down Korean Air Flight 007, or when the Americans shot down that Iranian airliner in the Persian Gulf. Sure, nobody admits to these things right away, but in all of them there was really only 1 responsible party that could have possibly done it.
With MH17, it's very much more complicated by the fact there was a shooting war going on at the time.
Anyways hopefully the next time there is a war going on the civilian aviation industry won't be cheap bastards and overfly an active war zone to save on flight time and fuel costs. But I might be expecting a bit much here.
I see on the sakers site the Russians (or a Russian group) just released thier own report and they are sticking with the SU-25 cannon shot down theory.
They have yet to explain how a cannon that can only hit airial targets out to 800 meters hit ML-17 at 3 to 5 KM (3,000 TO 5,000 METERS) with such a tight shot group.
Adverse Conditions Hindering Probe on MH17: UN Official
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/09/21/379460/conditions-hampering-pro...
"While the cease-fire in south-eastern Ukraine, thus far, is holding, contributing to a marked de-escalation on the ground, the conditions are still not conducive for investigators to have full and unfettered access to the site,' said the top UN official.
'Winter will soon arrive in Ukraine, at which time it will become almost impossible to retrieve further remains and to collect further evidence,' UN Under Secretary for Political Affairs Jeffrey Feltman noted."
Malaysian Flight MH17 Crash Analysis By the Russian Union of Engineers
http://globalresearch.ca/malaysian-flight-mh17-crash-analysis-by-the-rus...
"This is an excellent detailed analysis of the MH17 tragedy by the Russian Union of Engineers which quite frankly illustrates how heavily censored the Dutch 'report' is.
We will let you digest this report and come to your own conclusions which in all likelihood will explain the infamous high velocity projectiles whitewash pumped out by the western 'press'..."
'Liable For Damage': Families of Germans Killed in MH17 Crash to Sue Ukraine
http://rt.com/news/189428-germany-plane-sue-ukraine/
"The families of German citizens killed in the Malaysian plane crash in eastern Ukraine are planning to sue the Ukrainian authorities in the European Court of Human Rights, accusing them of manslaughter by negligence.
Ukraine should have closed its airspace if it couldn't provide for the safety of flights over its territory, Elmar Giemulla, a professor of aviation law representing the three families of German victims, told Bild am Sonntag, a German Sunday newspaper.
'Each state is responsible for the security of its air space,' Giemulla said..."
Anyways hopefully the next time there is a war going on the civilian aviation industry won't be cheap bastards and overfly an active war zone to save on flight time and fuel costs. But I might be expecting a bit much here.
It was not the aiviation industy but the Ukrainian authorities who were responsible for failing to protect and, according to some, deliberately diverting the aircraft to its doom. And the German families are already suing those very same authorities....
The families of German citizens killed in the Malaysian plane crash in eastern Ukraine are planning to sue the Ukrainian authorities in the European Court of Human Rights, accusing them of manslaughter by negligence.
Ukraine should have closed its airspace if it couldn’t provide for the safety of flights over its territory, Elmar Giemulla, a professor of aviation law representing the three families of German victims, told Bild am Sonntag, a German Sunday newspaper.
"Each state is responsible for the security of its air space," Giemulla said. "If it is not able to do so temporarily, it must close its air space. As that did not happen, Ukraine is liable for the damage."
According to Giemulla, by leaving the airspace open, Kiev authorities “destroyed” the lives of hundreds of innocent people. Thus, Ukraine committed human rights violations, he concluded.
He said at least one million euros should be paid to each family of the German crash victims.
See the link from NDPP in the previous post.
The Russian equivalent of the US Army Corps of Engineers has produced a report on the MH-17 atrocity. Given the poor quality of the reporting (by the Dutch) so far, I can't say as I blame them. The deliberately ambiguous reporting so far is really a disgrace and a slap in the face of the victims of this heinous war crime.
Anyway,
Malaysian Flight MH17 crash analysis, by The Russian Union of Engineers
September 18, 2014This is an excellent detailed analysis of the MH17 tragedy by the Russian Union of Engineers which quite frankly illustrates how heavily censored the Dutch “report” is.
We will let you digest this report and come to your own conclusion, which in all likelihood will explain the infamous high velocity projectiles whitewash pumped out by the western “press”.
This review was undertaken by experts who not only know the subject matter but have objectively presented evidence that must be considered with the legitimacy that is inherent to it. Here is the overall description of the “Analytical Group” from the report:
A group of experts from the Russian Union of engineers was convened to analyze the situation, including reserve officers with experience in the use of anti-aircraft missile systems, as well as pilots having experience with aircraft weapons.This problem was also discussed at a meeting of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, where many variants were tested and discussed again. In the course of their analysis the experts used materials derived from public sources, found in the media. The situation was also analyzed using a computer simulation of the Su-25.
The report in English can be downloaded from the following site
The report is very well written and worth a careful read. In particular, there is a thorough and careful review of the different ways the aircraft could be brought down as it was. They do a very good job of debunking the claim of some BUK anti-aircraft system being used to bring down the plane.
They conclude ...
9. Reconstucting the eventBased on the above, we can draw the following conclusions:
9.1. In relation to the circumstances of the crash of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 jet.
The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was carrying out the 17.07.2014 flight Amsterdam Kuala Lumpur in the flight corridor established by the dispatchers. At the same time, it is likely that manual control was turned off and the plane was on autopilot, flying in a horizontal plane along the route laid out and adjusted by air traffic controllers on the Ukrainian side.
At 17.1717.20, the Boeing 777 was in Ukrainian airspace near the city of Donetsk at the height of 10100 m. An unidentified combat aircraft (presumably a Su25 or MiG 29), which was a tier below, on a collision course, in the cloud layer, sharply gained altitude and suddenly appeared out of the clouds in front of the civilian aircraft and opened fire on the cockpit, firing from a 30 mm caliber cannon or smaller. The pilot of a fighter jet can do this while in "free hunting" mode (using onboard radar) or with the help of navigational guidance using airspace situation data from groundbased radar.
As a result of multiple hits from shells there was damage to the cockpit, which suddenly depressurized, resulting in instant death for the crew due to mechanical influences and decompression. The attack was sudden and lasted a fraction of a second; in such circumstances the crew could not sound any alarm as the flight had been proceeding in regular mode and no attack was expected.
Since neither the engines or hydraulic system, nor other devices required for the continuation of the flight were out of commission, the Boeing 777, running on autopilot (as is standard), continued on its horizontal flight path, perhaps gradually losing altitude. The pilot of the unidentified combat aircraft maneuvered to the rear of the Boeing 777. After that, the unidentified plane remained on the combat course, the pilot provided a target tracking aircraft equipment, took aim and launched his R60 or R73 missiles.
The result was a loss of cabin pressure, the aircraft control system was destroyed, the autopilot failed, the aircraft lost the ability to maintain its level flight path, and went into a tailspin. The resulting overload led to mechanical failure of the airframe at high altitudes.
The aircraft, according to the information available from the flight recorders, broke up in the air, but this is possible only in the case of a vertical fall from a height of ten thousand meters, which can only happen when the maximum permissible overload is exceeded. One reason for stalling and going into a tailspin is the inability of the crew to control the aircraft as a result an emergency in the cockpit and the subsequent instantaneous depressurization of the cockpit and the passenger cabin. The aircraft broke up at a high altitude, which explains the fact that the wreckage was scattered over the territory of more than 15 square kilometers.
After the fighter pilot(s) killed the crew of MH-17, I read this as saying that they then calmly positioned themselves to completely disable the aircraft while the helpless passengers could only look on in horror as they were blown out of the sky. Maybe they had time to say a prayer. Maybe not.
9.2. In relation to the party responsible for the death of 283 passengers and 15 crew members.On 17.07.2014, the armed forces of the self proclaimed Donetsk National Republic had no relevant combat aircraft capable of destroying an aerial target similar to the Boeing 777, nor the necessary airfield network, nor the means of radar detection, targeting and tracking.
No combat aircraft of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation violated the airspace of Ukraine, which the Ukrainian side confirms as well as third parties who conduct space surveillance over the situation in Ukraine and in its airspace.
To establish the truth, it is necessary to objectively and impartially investigate all the circumstances of the destruction of the Malaysian Boeing 777, to interview the thousands of citizens who may have seen something. Naturally, experienced professionals should conduct the surveys. To ask the right questions this is a rigorous science, and a great art in advancing the truth. Important information is contained in the wreckage of the aircraft and the remains of the dead, but this precise information is easy to destroy, distort and hide. And there are plenty of parties interested in concealing the real facts. As confirmation, Ukraine, the Netherlands, Belgium and Australia signed an agreement on August 8 providing that information about the crash investigation would be disclosed only upon the consent of all parties. "The investigation is ongoing [utilizing] expertise and other investigative actions” – announced the Spokesman of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine, Yuri Boychenko. “The results will be announced at the conclusion of the investigation and with the consent of all parties that have executed the agreement."
Procrastination and the evasion of an objective investigation by all sides, with the participation of prestigious international organizations, raises doubts whether the concerned parties will make public the true circumstances surrounding the crash of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777.
First VicePresident of the AllRussian Public Organization
"Russian Union of Engineers”
Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Engineering Company "2K"
Ivan A. Andrievskii
After the fighter pilot(s) killed the crew of MH-17, I read this as saying that they then calmly positioned themselves to completely disable the aircraft while the helpless passengers could only look on in horror as they were blown out of the sky. Maybe they had time to say a prayer. Maybe not.
Somehow I think maybe not - to the whole far-fetched scenario of some fighter jet killing the crew, letting the plane drift on autopilot, then blasting it again (surprisingly, with a pattern that makes it look as if it was one burst of shrapnel).
But I'm sure that won't stop them from writing a musical number with horrified passengers and desparate prayers into the eventual tragic opera about the eternal struggle against fascism.
Not to mention the dead eyed Ukrainian fighter pilot that can pick off the cockpit at over 3,000 meters with a cannon that has a 800 meter range.
Go ahead and show us all the great and comprehensive reporting, complete with legitimate photographic and other data, from the Empire and its stooges in NATO.
Oh wait. There is no equivalent report from the US. We're supposed to rely on grainy photos produced on social media for the "proof" from the Empire of its claims.
Might as well rely on grainy photos of Nessie to substantiate the existence of crypto-zoological beasts like the Loch Ness Monster.
What would be the point. You wouldn't believe it anyways.
Ikosmos,
Interesting link from the Russian Union of Engineers, I still think that Bec.De.Corbin has some valid points.
I don't agree with all their findings however some of their points are reasonable. However some of the document is pure propaganda at best.
Their data on the BUK-M1 is seems to be a bit false, most technical data I see suggest the platform is more capable than the engineers are describing.
The radar identification between a SU-25 and Mig-29 is completely false. There is a large difference in design between an ground attack aircraft and a fighter aircraft and most civilian radars would be able to tell the difference. All military radars could tell the difference for sure.
The Russians have more than enough radars looking into the Ukraine to confirm this.
Having been around 20/30mm weapons, the damage present in the document isn't remotely close to what I have witnessed before.
The interesting event is that the Russians cannot provide anymore dealt on these phantom fighter jets. If the Russian were able to tracked them behind the airliner for some time, why can't they confirmed where the aircraft landed or took off from? Ukraine is big but not that big to indentify were jets took off and land at.
"Interesting link from the Russian Union of Engineers, I still think that Bec.De.Corbin has some valid points."
Which ones?
"I don't agree with all their findings however some of their points are reasonable. However some of the document is pure propaganda at best."
Again, which are "reasonable" and which are "pure propaganda" ?
"Their data on the BUK-M1 is seems to be a bit false, most technical data I see suggest the platform is more capable than the engineers are describing."
Does this affect the conclusion they made that this weapon system, given the noise, obvious flight "trails", etc. could not have been used by anyone without some evidence to show for it? Aren't you missing the forest for the trees?
"The radar identification between a SU-25 and Mig-29 is completely false. There is a large difference in design between an ground attack aircraft and a fighter aircraft and most civilian radars would be able to tell the difference. All military radars could tell the difference for sure."
Again... how does this afffect the conclusions they came to?
"The Russians have more than enough radars looking into the Ukraine to confirm this."
What's clearly true is that, other than relying on grainy photos of Loch Ness monster quality, or outright frauds, we have nothing from the US/NATO or Ukraine. Nada. Squat. And we know they were watching very carefully.
"Having been around 20/30mm weapons, the damage present in the document isn't remotely close to what I have witnessed before."
Does this debunk their claim? The argument about the sort of damage from BUK is very clear. Arm waving won't do it. You actually have to MAKE AN ARGUMENT AND PROVIDE SOME POINTS TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIM. Of course, you could always claim "National Security" and just tell us that you can't tell us. lol.
"The interesting event is that the Russians cannot provide anymore dealt on these phantom fighter jets. If the Russian were able to tracked them behind the airliner for some time, why can't they confirmed where the aircraft landed or took off from? Ukraine is big but not that big to indentify were jets took off and land at."
What's interesting is how much evidence the Roooooooooooooskies have provided. It's remarkable. And the utter lack of evidence on the other side, the public agreement among the 4 countries that they won't publish anything unless all agree in advance ....What a crock.
Where is the US evidence? Do you deny that they were watching the entire battlefield, same as the Russians undoubtedly were?
This is going to end up in court, and the families (as the German ones already have!) are going to have to sue Ukraine for the truth of this. Pathetic. Then, quietly, when as few people as possible are looking, some blood money will be paid to the families on the condition that they shut up about it.
Let freedom reign. Boo rah.
[/quote]
Does this affect the conclusion they made that this weapon system, given the noise, obvious flight "trails", etc. could not have been used by anyone without some evidence to show for it? Aren't you missing the forest for the trees? orest for the trees?
I’m willing to bet witnesses are out there but I’m thinking they are intimidated and afraid to come forward right now. Anyone whom saw or recorded the launch of a SAM missile was and still is in rebel held territory.
Releasing evidence against the rebels would not be a very good idea for now.
There are articles where people on the Russian version of Skyp were heard talking about seeing the launch the day of the downing. Those Skyp sites were shut down.
Same could be said for your denial to believe the big socal media fuck up of the rebels leader did claiming to have shot down another Ukrainian transport plane right after ML-17 was shot down (and then taking it down). Same with the recordings of the rebel's phone calls. That's one big assed forest you seem to be missing so don't throw too many rocks... 8-)
That sort of evidence could be see for kilometers around. Read the argument. Military on both sides could have seen the trails, heard the noise, and snapped a simple photo. Yet there is nothing.
Yes, you can claim the entire population, opposed to the "rebels" but terrified of them, are afraid to speak, etc. but we both know that is a pile of garbage. The Ukrainian regime bombed them indiscriminately, and it is that regime that is the danger.
But go ahead. You can spin things your way endlessly. Right up until the day when the slimy Ukrainian regime has to pay the families their blood money. By then, there will be some new reason to crap on the ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOskies. And this one will be forgotten. Just as the atrocities of the Georgian regime are now, conveniently forgotten, just as the arrest warrant for THAT President from his own country doesn't make the important news in the citadels of Western imperialism.
"Interesting link from the Russian Union of Engineers, I still think that Bec.De.Corbin has some valid points."
Which ones?
"I don't agree with all their findings however some of their points are reasonable. However some of the document is pure propaganda at best."
Again, which are "reasonable" and which are "pure propaganda" ?
"Their data on the BUK-M1 is seems to be a bit false, most technical data I see suggest the platform is more capable than the engineers are describing."
Does this affect the conclusion they made that this weapon system, given the noise, obvious flight "trails", etc. could not have been used by anyone without some evidence to show for it? Aren't you missing the forest for the trees?
"The radar identification between a SU-25 and Mig-29 is completely false. There is a large difference in design between an ground attack aircraft and a fighter aircraft and most civilian radars would be able to tell the difference. All military radars could tell the difference for sure."
Again... how does this afffect the conclusions they came to?
"The Russians have more than enough radars looking into the Ukraine to confirm this."
What's clearly true is that, other than relying on grainy photos of Loch Ness monster quality, or outright frauds, we have nothing from the US/NATO or Ukraine. Nada. Squat. And we know they were watching very carefully.
"Having been around 20/30mm weapons, the damage present in the document isn't remotely close to what I have witnessed before."
Does this debunk their claim? The argument about the sort of damage from BUK is very clear. Arm waving won't do it. You actually have to MAKE AN ARGUMENT AND PROVIDE SOME POINTS TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIM. Of course, you could always claim "National Security" and just tell us that you can't tell us. lol.
"The interesting event is that the Russians cannot provide anymore dealt on these phantom fighter jets. If the Russian were able to tracked them behind the airliner for some time, why can't they confirmed where the aircraft landed or took off from? Ukraine is big but not that big to indentify were jets took off and land at."
What's interesting is how much evidence the Roooooooooooooskies have provided. It's remarkable. And the utter lack of evidence on the other side, the public agreement among the 4 countries that they won't publish anything unless all agree in advance ....What a crock.
Where is the US evidence? Do you deny that they were watching the entire battlefield, same as the Russians undoubtedly were?
This is going to end up in court, and the families (as the German ones already have!) are going to have to sue Ukraine for the truth of this. Pathetic. Then, quietly, when as few people as possible are looking, some blood money will be paid to the families on the condition that they shut up about it.
Let freedom reign. Boo rah.
[/quote]
Let's make this simple, please provide me a list your approved websites and I will research the data from them to prove my points again and again.
Webgear, it's one thing to disagree. It's another issue when the details of the disagreement arent' clear.
From your remarks, it's not even clear what your points are so I can argue or agree with them. e.g., vague claims about BUK weapons don't refute the very good argument that the noisy launch, obvious trails that can be seen for miles, audio-visual evidence ad nauseum, make the use of this weapon very, very unlikely. Please try to address that point. It seems to be a rather strong argument about the manner the aircraft was brought down. In that light, arguing about the radar signature of this or that aircraft, when it seems clear that it WAS an aircraft, etc, seems to be missing the forest for the trees.
The apalling lack of evidence from the US/NATO side is critical as well. The "absence of evidence" proves nothing but it certainly casts very large doubts over the noisy allegations, shouted from rooftops by Western governments and media for weeks, about Russian and/or separatists involvement. It's just not plausible that the US/NATO doesn't have evidence. The silence from them is ... deafeaning. It just seems disingenous to them claim that the evidence the Russians have provided is somehow 'lacking".
Ikosmos, for the easy of discussion let's break each point down and discuss the merits of points. What would you like to talk about first?
Sometime I think you are missing the forest because you are looking at a single tree. 
I will rip apart any report. Give me a NATO report and I wll discuss it and rip it apart too.
Yes, the lack of evidence from the US/NATO is distrubing.
Yes, the lack of evidence from the US/NATO is distrubing.
It's funny how you dance around the range factoid of the 30mm cannon I keep bringing up.
That's one group of facts you can't talk your way out of or around because they are hard wired in so you seem to be ignoring it.
The closest the SU-25 got to ML-17 was over 3,000 meters; that is way outside the range its cannon can shoot accurately, 800 meters maximum, at aerial targets (and the report has him picking off the cockpit area no less). Both those facts are given by the Russians themselves, not NATO or the USA or the Dutch or the Ukrainians, in two different reports they made and when you put them together they don't jive. They thought of allot of stuff when they made their live briefing and that report. But like most people who make stuff up to suit their needs they over looked on little fact that challenges the whole story: the range of the cannon they claimed was used. Opps, nobody is perfect I guess.
Accuse me of spinning facts all you want but I'm challenging the air to air cannon shot down based on real information and not my politics. I'm not even going to get into how the fuck a fully loaded (it would have to have both missiles and cannon ammo loaded) SU-25 can climb up and dance around ML-17 so far above its operational ceiling (7,000 METERS VS 10,000 METERS of ML-17).
Your 2nd point is directly addressed in the report. They explain how such-and-such aircraft can, briefly, climb to 10 km. It's there.
I know it is and I've adressed this farther down the thread before. Key word here is briefly... not spend time lining up a 3+KM pick off shot to the cockpit with a cannon that can only shot 800 meters then spend more time manuvering around for a missle kill. They also failed to mention the aircraft has to have a minmal load to do that brief climb to 10,000 meters. The jet in their scenerio would need a load of both missles and cannon ammo (which is not light).
The devil is in the details and I'm afraid the details don't add up if you know what you are looking at.
"As western leaders turned up the rhetoric on Russia, it was only through Prime Minister Najib's rare personal intervention – negotiating directly with the rebels – that the bodies and black boxes were recovered...."
Normally as a government, you’d only deal with another government. But here is a movement, a separatist movement, and there was this impasse.”“We couldn't retrieve the bodies; we couldn't get our hands on the black boxes; we couldn't have access to the crash site.”
“Dealing with the separatists was something just unprecedented.”
That is, Russophobia was more imporant for the Western countries than investigating the disaster.
Swine. But why am I not surprised?
Malaysian PM acted alone to win release of MH17 bodies and black boxes.
Never mind that the more important question is why those bodies, and the black boxes, were held hostage at all, and that those difficult negotiations were even necessary.
What are you arguing.... that western government SHOULD have interfered in what was a matter between Ukraine, Malaysia and Netherlands?
I am sure the Malaysian PM did important work, and I am sure he is right about back channels, but he was hardly the only person there. the Dutch delegation (the first to reach the train), Ukraine, and OSCE were also involved.
I know Christine Amanpour made a reference in that blog to western governments turning up the rhetoric, but did Najib Razak - the person who was actually there - say anything critical, other than mentioning difficulties in communication?
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/20/ukraine-malaysiavictims....
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/mh17-black-boxes-handed-ove...
Never mind that the more important question is why those bodies, and the black boxes, were held hostage at all, and that those difficult negotiations were even necessary.
Hostage is a tainted word. I believe there was some concern about turning things over to proper authorities and investigators, as in, who will actually be coming in to do the retrieving? There was a war going on at the time, with all manner of fabrication being thrown around and reported as fact.
What a load of nonsense. The Ukrainian regime was bombing continuously and making any sort of assistance very difficult. This bombing slowed down the OSCE observers as well, or certainly gave them an excuse to slow down. Meanwhile, the resistance fighters were supposed to tell the locals to leave the bodies to rot, in their front yards, while the observers sauntered around in their own good time.
And the Dutch agreed with the three other countries involved, including the Ukrainian junta, that no report would be released unless all 4 agreed to do so.
Boy, are you backing the wrong horse.
The wrong horse? What does any of that have to do with my questions?
I know commentaors like to play up conflict, but what do you think western countries (other than Netherlands, which was there on the ground) should have done?
And did the PM say anything negative about anyone else's government?Ina malaysian article it is made more clear that he was talking about mistakes his own government had made after the crash of MH370.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/i-had-to-act-alone-t...
As an aside, the PM's step-grandmother was on MH17.
And if you think hostage is a tainted word, it is one used to describe a very tainted matter. The Australian foreign minister used a very similar word when she told rebels to stop using the bodies as "pawns":
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-21/bishop-lobbies-un-as-bodies-being-...
What are you arguing.... that western government SHOULD have interfered in what was a matter between Ukraine, Malaysia and Netherlands?
Wow. That is just obtuse. Instead of the loud megaphone blaming the resistance and the Russians (in no particular order - they're supposed to be lumped together, after all) from the Western regimes and their captive mass media, instead of encouraging the ethnic cleansing of the Donetsk by Ukraine and its fascist miltias, the Western countries could have played a positive role. They did not. Don't goddam pretend otherwise.
A "positive role"?
THat's what I am curious about: what action on the part of western nations would constitute a positive role for you. Because frankly, I think you'd see any action on their part as interference. Which is why I find your misinterpretation of the Malaysian PM's words (actually referring to his own country) into blame for inaction kind of bizarre.
In fact, the nations who were most directly affected - Ukraine, Malaysia, Netherlands, and Austalia - were very much involved in the efforts to recover victims and information, and several of them had people on the ground in eastern Ukraine.
[On September 24, 2014], Obama spoke at the United Nations General Assembly. He touched on a broad range of subjects, but he devoted most of the time to Ukraine and Russia. Against the background of American bombing in Syria, his speech has a most cynical quality to it:“…Russia’s actions in Ukraine challenge this post-war order. Here are the facts. After the people of Ukraine mobilized popular protests and calls for reform, their corrupt President fled. Against the will of the government in Kiev, Crimea was annexed. Russia poured arms into Eastern Ukraine, fuelling violent separatists and a conflict that has killed thousands. When a civilian airliner was shot down from areas that these proxies controlled, they refused to allow access to the crash for days. When Ukraine started to reassert control over its territory, Russia gave up the pretence of merely supporting the separatists, and moved troops across the border…”
It is interesting, by the way, that the question of who shot down the Boeing is no longer even raised. The tune is now different: the unforgivable transgression of the Militiamen is that they did not allow someone to go somewhere. Even though, as I recall, the inspectors could not reach the crash site because of merciless shelling by the Ukrainian punitive forces. But who remembers that now?
That's called "moving the goalposts".
There are other sources that agree with Bec and Webgear about the 20/30 mm question and who argue that it is much more likely that the aircraft was shot down by a missile - say, air to air, while being somewhat agnostic about who did it.
Basically, it is argued that the kind of damage on MH17 is consistent with a proximity fused missile, hence the closely-spaced small holes, exploding near the aircraft and spraying shrapnel all over it. This, it is said, is more plausible than what sound like World War One dogfight descriptions that are out of whack with the hypersonic speeds and distances of modern fighter aircraft.
None of this addresses the real problem that the US surveillance data is completely missing from the discussion. Nor does it explain why the four countries have the secrecy agreement (nothing made public unless all 4 agree ... when one of the parties may be the culprit) on the investigation.
One reason for the silence from the USA intelligence community could be they do not want to show their true information gathering capabilities (for better or worse) to the Russians. Its obvious why the Russians would want to see what the US really detected; they would learn allot about US surveillance capabilities. We can argue in circles over this but for the most part, aside from those that believe in various conspiracy theories or the Russian version of events most people have pretty much made up their minds (based on whatever reason) what happened: and that would be the separatists accidently shot ML-17 down with a weapon systems Russia gave them.
So in the end, much to the disappointment of the Russians, there is really no need for the USA to show its satellite capabilities in the case of ML-17. For all we know the SU-25 shoot down theory could have been and attempt to get the USA to show its capability by showing evidence to counter that theory (total speculation on my part).
Of course if that was a US airliner or if ML-17 had a large number of USA citizens on it things would probably be different.
One thing that cannot be changed, other than the loss of 298 lives over a war zone, is that the Russophobic campaign by Western governments and their captive media had, combined with the idiotic sanctions, driven a wedge between Western countries and Russia. They have seen, firsthand, that the West is happy to see ethnic Russians physically exterminated as a prelude to general extermination.
Russia is now preparing for a Nazi-style attack on themselves by NATO and they figure they have around 10 years before it happens. The Russian Deputy PM laid out on Russian TV just exactly what they are doing to prepare.
They will accelerate the reforms needed to make themselves immune from such myopic foreign policy by the Empire and its vassals like Canada, they will move towards jettisoning the US petrodollar as the basis for trade, especially in oil and gas, they will work together with other BRICS members, especially China, a country that has never been so close to Russia maybe in its history, they will reluctantly extricate themselves from Ukraine, making use of a massive brain drain from that failed state, they will modernize their military (only Canada can compare to such a huge country with only the population of France and Germany combined), they will elaborate a civilizational alternative to the spritual impoverishment of rotting, fetid Western society, and, together with the rest of world outside the so-called Anglo-Zionist Empire , they will put their untrustworthy neighbours in NATO behind them.
It is not only the Novorossiyans who no longer trust the West.
