Rally for Democracy in Hong Kong

The standoff continues as temperatures drop. A leading anti-occupier says this is the second time Hong Kong has been occupied, the first being during WW2...by Japanese soldiers. Speculation that the police are now training for a mass clearance to take place after the APEC conference in Beijing. Rumours they are training with a "pepper fog machine."
(article with minimal English: http://www.passiontimes.hk/article/11-02-2014/19489)

image from: http://hk.apple.appledaily.com/realtime/news/20141102/53087730

How Might Hong Kong’s Pro-Democracy Protests End?

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“If students in Beijing in 1989 could have left at the last minute, there would have been no excuse for a violent crackdown then,”  [liberal Chinese law professor Zhang Qianfan] wrote. In Zhang’s view, the students in Hong Kong reached their aims just by going out, expressing their views, and occupying roads for a week or so. Continuing the occupation risks turning it into “simply illegal acts,” he warned.

...

“We had a dialogue with the government but it had no real content. Each side just repeated their talking points—there was no deeper discussion,” [a protester] said...The Hong Kong government is in an “awkward” position, because it has no real power. “They just listen to the central government.”

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“This is not only a dilemma for the demonstrators, but also the government,” To said. “The two objectives are contradictory: you can solve it by peaceful means if you back down, or you can use violent means to disperse the crowds. I can’t see any chance that the people will go away otherwise. I think this could carry on for months.”

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 “We’ve been coming to the streets for over a decade,” [a 16-yr-old protester] said, referring to the regular marches and protest events held in Hong Kong throughout any given year...Wu, like many others, has adjusted to life as a long-term occupier. He volunteers at one of the supply tents in Mong Kok, the more working-class of the two main protest zones, refilling water bottles and handing out food to activists. If there was a violent clearance, he admitted that “yes, we’d leave.” Then added: “But we’ll come right back.”

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While initial demands by the students groups were unyielding, it’s possible that at this point, a sufficiently large proportion of protesters may accept a second-best option: promises by the government for a timetable to bring greater democracy to the nomination process.

...
Another possibility, of course, is if Xi Jinping steps in to resolve the crisis himself directly...In this optimistic scenario, Xi Jinping and the top communist leadership could then use this as a cover to retract the original decision by the National People’s Congress Standing Committee, which is headed by Zhang Dejiang, an ally of Xi’s political opponent Jiang Zemin, a former leader of the Chinese regime.

Despite Xi Jinping’s sweeping anticorruption campaign and purge of powerful opponents, including Zhou Yongkang, the former security czar, and Xu Caihou, formerly the second most powerful officer in the military, he has not still not fully consolidated power over all parts of the Party and government apparatus.

This line of analysis has appeared in Hong Kong and overseas political journals, and appears to be accepted knowledge among the politically aware in Hong Kong. Some of Jiang Zemin’s holdouts, including Zhang Dejiang, are still able to pursue policies detrimental to Xi’s interests. Leung Chun-ying, the chief executive, is known to have ties to the broad political network associated with Jiang Zemin.

Xi Jinping’s own messaging on Hong Kong has not been as hardline as the Zhang camp. Li Keqiang, his premier, was believed to be communicating Xi’s views last month when Li said “the people of Hong Kong have the wisdom” to resolve the crisis.

After retracting and amending the original National People’s Congress decision, Xi could conceivably present another interpretation, not as absolute, of how candidates for the position of chief executive could be nominated. He could then sack the widely-loathed chief executive Leung Chun-ying, as a token to the protesters, for Leung’s unseemly business dealings that came to light in early October.

The result would surely still include a level of control and veto of candidates by Beijing, but the conciliatory gestures may be enough to defuse the crisis without bloodshed. This scenario, which right now seems rather far off, would of course require Hong Kong’s protesters to stay right where they are—out on the streets.

Not sure about Cartalucci, I would like to see an interview with him.

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The problem is that as nearly as can be told, there is no such person as Tony Cartalucci. And what “Cartalucci” appears to have done is to have created a chain of biased or bogus online stories that travel in a circle from Bangkok to Moscow to Beijing to Hong Kong in an effort to discredit the Occupy Central movement.

A shadowy “researcher” recycles doubtful claims about HK’s Occupy Central onto the world stage

More questions about media coverage on this event:

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We are a group of Hong Kong citizens who are supporting the ongoing protests for democracy. We deeply regret that the BBC’s report on Oct 21, titled ‘Hong Kong protests: Activists share secrets at Oslo Freedom Forum’ is full of inaccuracies and slanted reporting. Although minor adjustments to the report have been made since its more blatant errors came under criticism, we believe that the report as a whole lacks objectivity and accuracy we would expect from responsible journalism. Without having interviewed a single Hong Kong person, the report alleges that the current Hong Kong protests are closely related to 1) the Oslo Freedom Forum and 2) Tiananmen Square protester Jianli Yang.

"Images of “pro-democracy” protesters in Hong Kong ignored by the Western media"

-- clearly showing how the youth are indeed spoiled, decadent and inconsiderate of society at large.

from: The Soft Power of Hong Kong Protesters  -  by Wei Ling Chua

The author Vltchek says the protesters in Hong Kong are products of western imperialism with no deep understanding of the world.

There might be some truth in this. Hong Kong is an east-west hybrid, born from opium-pushing colonists and a weak empire that failed to modernize China the way the Meiji did in Japan. China itself would not have made Hong Kong what it is; it grew with the energy of southern Chinese business acumen and avarice, sheltered by and working in conjunction with western imperialism. As for the lack of depth of worldly understanding among the youth, it may be due to an education system largely based on rote learning, which is the dominant educational model in Chinese-speaking societies. These protests would truly be a waste if the youth involved in them are not more awakened to the world beyond China, and stimulated to deeply consider more perspectives.

However I would not say Vltchek knows more than these youth about the ways in which China is impinging upon Hong Kong. Protesters are not blind to the PRC’s progress, and Vltchek misses the significance of them largely calling for the resignation of CY Leung not Xi Jinping. But there are real grievances, as Vltchek acknowledges and has been touched upon above in this thread.

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Beijing in no hurry to clear Occupy sites

While Beijing was initially worried that the protests in Hong Kong would trigger a revolution in the mainland, state leaders were relieved to find that the prevailing opinion among mainlanders is against the Occupy campaign. That is one of the reasons why Beijing is in no rush to force clearing operations.

Despite the Occupy protests, central government policies in favor of Hong Kong continue...However, the sources said, there will no longer be “huge gifts” for the city in future, and the central government will not limit the growth of any mainland cities in favor of grooming Hong Kong to assume a bigger role.

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The largest cyber attack in history has been carried out against independent media sites in Hong Kong over the past few months, according to the company protecting them, increasing in their intensity each time pro-democracy activists announced new activities or developments.

The distributed denial of service (DDoS) attacks have been carried out against independent news site Apple Daily and PopVote, which organised mock chief executive elections for Hong Kong. Now the content delivery network Cloudflare, which protects Apple Daily and PopVote, says the DDoS attacks have been unprecedented in scale, pounding the sites with junk traffic at a remarkable 500 gigabits per second.

The Largest Cyber Attack In History Has Been Hitting Hong Kong Sites

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hong-kong-protests-student-leaders-arrested... So sorry to see this. I was in Hong Kong for work last week and was at the site. Very peaceful and organized.

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“If there is enough of a public backlash against the police actions last night, we might be able to come back,” said Anthony Lam, a computer technician who was packing up a tent. “Only if there is enough public anger will there be enough people here to reoccupy somewhere.” (from above article)

19 yr old reads in front of police, says she doesn't want to "lose #mongkok " #occupyhk #OccupyCentral #hk #umhk

12:21 AM - 27 Nov 2014

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Nov. 27- The HK Federation of Students says it may now target government buildings as a means of stepping up action against the government, as it continues to push for democratic political reform here which meets international standards.

http://m.rthk.hk/news/20141127/1056703.htm

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...Many [protesters] said they could always occupy new streets. "If police also clear Nathan Road tomorrow, I'll see where people are occupying next and join them," said Maddie, a 60-year-old mother of three. She said she has been coming to Mong Kok almost every day since late September. "But no matter what, I'm not going to back down. I'm fighting for the future of my granddaughter and the next generation.”...

...those advocating for escalation, such as the storming of Hong Kong's legislature building by protesters on Nov. 18, are growing impatient with what they consider passive and ineffective tactics by organizers based in the financial district of Admiralty, who focus on public outreach and run the Admiralty protest site so that at times it feels like a festive village. Major disputes broke out last week as netizens and demonstrators in Mong Kok attempted to remove Admiralty-based organizers from power, who they believed are an obstacle to their plans to escalate. Jeffrey Lam, a pro-business legislator here, stated on Nov. 19 that protesters had "lost control.”...

...In response to dwindling public support, protest leaders are looking for a new direction for the movement, but are divided about what direction to go…Hong Kong's protest movement, it seems, is starting to divide, as different groups pursue their own strategies. Ironically, that is exactly the spirit of democracy that the protesters are pursuing.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/11/25/hong_kongs_house_divide...

Thank you for supporting those defending that bastion of capitalism named Hong Kong from those fighting the evil socialistic China.

RDP wrote:

Thank you for supporting those defending that bastion of capitalism named Hong Kong from those fighting for the evil socialistic China.

Read all my opinions posted above before you jump to simple-brained conclusions about my position. Then we might have a discussion instead of a flame exchange.

China is not a monolith.

And the protesters are the last ones defending the capitalist-dominated "functional constituencies" and CY Leung. RDP obviously hasn't read much on this topic. Why has there been so much talk about "princelings" in socialistic China?

And thank you!

Stories on last night's action.

Hong Kong Police Turn Back Siege on Government (NYT)

Police spraying pepper spray from back-mounted tanks with hose attached.

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(Guardian) Hong Kong: clashes escalate between pro-democracy protesters and police Injuries on both sides as police force demonstrators to abandon barricaded position in one of city’s main thoroughfares

The pepper solution sprayed by police in recent days appears to be stronger than standard pepper spray or even teargas, with a photographer saying he was temporarily blinded by it. Injured protesters with red rashes were washed down with bottled water. One of those giving first aid, a 23-year-old nurse who gave his name as Vincent L, said the spray was six times stronger than teargas and that some of the components were found in pesticide.

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...the fact that the “one country, two systems” formula has been almost completely discredited by events in Hong Kong is part of the context.

The Guardian view on the continuing protests in Hong Kong

Pan-democrats, key protest figures break ranks over surrender

The fracturing of protester unity progresses as the uniforms continue to move forcefully on the main encampment. Authorities would like this to be the end of a movement, others hope it's only the end of a phase.

Expect a drawn-out, low-key persecution of protest leaders and key followers. Many will probably leave Hong Kong, especially the young ones with the wherewithal to study overseas. I bet some will easily get scholarships, which China will propagandize by accusing student leaders as doing this all for personal gain.

Other changes in Hong Kong will occur as well. For example, I'm sure Beijing has already discussed changing the side of the road they drive on.

The loss of the international-ness of Hong Kong would be a loss for the world, and for China. I am all in favour of a stable, strong, peaceful, prosperous, progressive and proud (though not arrogant) China. I think it will have to accommodate calls for democracy, gradually but genuinely, to get there. A major factor bogging this process down is the constant threat of foreign interference, which gives elites in China an excuse - if not a reason - for authoritarianism.

Hong Kong is/was (before the takeover) most definitely a free and capitalistic society.  This is what they are trying to preserve.  I wish them luck.

Bash plutocracy.

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Hong Kong students overwhelmingly see the mainland as a foreign dictatorship rather than a motherland, and see Hong Kong as being progressively swallowed up by its authoritarian mainland masters. This is totally different from what Hong Kong and Beijing pundits envisioned 20 years ago; they assumed young people would become more Chinese. This was not even fully imaginable 20 months ago. A generation has been radicalised. Will this young generation be running a new, more democratic and open Hong Kong in future decades? Or will it be doomed to suffer an ever more plutocratic and authoritarian Hong Kong?

Politicians and police have done a thorough job of alienating Hong Kong youth

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The struggle has been amplified by increasing economic polarization, rising prices and falling wages, and fears that locals’ dreams of a better future will be foreclosed by plutocrats with Communist Party connections. This struggle should not feel unfamiliar to Americans forced again last month to choose between candidates beholden to corporate special interests, family dynasties and party politics.

Like Americans, many mainland Chinese – and not only those visiting Hong Kong – complain every day about the revolving door between corporate and political positions, about the illicit accumulation of wealth by party “princelings,” and about systemic corruption and surveillance states. But unlike Americans, people here are unable to access the salve of the ballot box.

Umbrella Politics: What American Movements Can Learn From the Hong Kong Protests

Persistence. The popular shopping area, Mong Kok, cleared out of protesters last week, now sees random, massive surges of "shoppers." In central HK, students are going on 'hunger strikes' - but I'm not sure how worthy of this term these activities are. Apparently enough (100+ hrs) to require electrolytes and a wheelchair for striking 18-year old student leader Joshua Wong.

Photo from central HK today:

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Today several farmers are working on the Admiralty farm (next to Lennon Wall). They are inviting people to participate as well as updating foreigners that pass by on the movement. Buckets of food waste accumulated by the protesters at LegCo are now fertilising the soil. (Sign: "I want true universal suffrage.")

/u/studio_leung

The topic I referred to above was the demands of the current protests in Hong Kong.

Let's keep it to the last 100 years.  And please, show me the mass graves of First Nations peoples.

Taiwan soundly rejects KMT's approach to China relations in local level elections.

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...former Hong Kong League of Social Democrats chairman Andrew To (陶君行), who was in Taiwan as an election observer, said Saturday’s event gave Hong Kong great encouragement. “The ‘China factor’ effect is substantial for both Taiwan and Hong Kong. Facing the erosion of freedom, Hong Kongers can only resort to civil disobedience, but in Taiwan, you have elections. If Taiwan can, why can’t Hong Kong?” he said.

Sou Ka-hou (蘇嘉豪), convener of Macau Conscience, an activist organization in the territory, said that the elections were a victory for Taiwan’s democracy movement, which has entered a stage of consolidation and deepening.

Activists from HK, Macau eye results

Taiwan's election results inspiring to Hongkongers: democracy activist

The CCP has to start taking baby steps toward genuine democracy, and Hong Kong is the logical place to start. Even a small measure would help. Bend now, or break later.

Cultural genocide.

I don't want to hijack your thread. So, i keep my posts short. But are you kidding?  Again, I am sure you would agree.  Cultural genocide is so much better than genocide.