NDP MP quits for Ontario Liberals

Maybe Thibeault is a lurker here at Babble, and he has been so impressed by Debater's arguments that he decided to get with the program, and join the winners of the world.

Website already pulled down:

http://glennthibeault.ndp.ca/

Debater wrote:

So another NDP MP leaves the Mulcair caucus.

At what point do NDPers have to agree that this reflects on Mulcair's leadership?

Sounds like a leadership problem, too bad he is only a manager. 

Webgear wrote:

Debater wrote:

So another NDP MP leaves the Mulcair caucus.

At what point do NDPers have to agree that this reflects on Mulcair's leadership?

Sounds like a leadership problem, too bad he is only a manager. 

When a team is built around a single personality, in this case Jack Layton, it is often a balancing act with a variety of figures vying for position within the group. The group holds cohesion because the leadership figure assembled the team. It is always difficult, when a new person comes into that position from the ranks of that group because the group has become unbalanced. Losing some figures from the original group is normal, as a new team, with a new leader.

That doesn't mean that the new person does not have leadership skills, because in fact Mulcair clearly does. It just means that the common cause of the old team has come undone, and a new one has to be formed.

nicky wrote:

Thibeault gave an interview on Power and Politics in which was asked a number of times if he now supported the Trudeau Liberals. He dodged the question.

Oh, nicky, I hope you're not trying to be misleading and take a shot at Trudeau over this already, are you?

Thibeault has just joined the Ontario Liberals.  As he told Evan Solomon, he's been an OLP member for *8 hours*.  He wasn't expecting to suddenly be asked whether he would be supporting Justin Trudeau when he was in the Mulcair NDP as of yesterday.

But I'm pretty sure that Thibeault will be supporting Justin Trudeau soon enough once he makes the transfer.  As Solomon told him, Wynne is a big Trudeau supporter, so no doubt Thibeault will be soon.

Debater wrote:

Thibeault has just joined the Ontario Liberals.  As he told Evan Solomon, he's been an OLP member for *8 hours*.

And that is the difference bewteen the NDP and the old-parties. The former was fromed by activists outside Parliament, the latter formed by poloiticans.

Thibeault is a pathetic opportunist and should be ashamed to show his face in the Parliaments of Ontario or Canada. I hope he loses.

I am donating to that cause.

Aristotleded24 wrote:

[...] Going from 1 seat to 59 in one single election presents all kinds of structural challenges for the Party that Jesus Christ Himself would have a hard time handling.

And Jesus only had 12 MPs... I mean disciples!

Maybe if Mulcair would walk on water or turn water into wine, maybe Debater would whine less about Mulcair's leadership skills.

And since you asked for it Debater, I'll be more than happy to take a shot at your Annointed One: 

Justin Trudeau is a clueless, vacuous twit with absolutely NO leadership skills.

And no, I am not underestimating him. If anything, I am probably being too generous. ;-)

Meanwhile Christina Blizzard says this is Andrea's fault

One thing this demonstrates is the shocking inability of New Democrats to hang on to their MPs and MPPs.

Cimino quit Nov. 20, with just 12 days left in the Legislative calendar before the House rose for the Christmas break. No matter what overwhelming personal issues he was dealing with, it surely shouldn’t have been too much for NDP Leader Andrea Horwath to convince him to hang in for those few days.

Let him take time those days off, if necessary, to deal with the issues.

In a majority parliament, it wouldn’t have made much difference.

As it is, the NDP will be hard pressed to hang on to the seat, although voters will view Thibeault’s defection with great skepticism.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/12/16/liberals-may-feel-public-wrath-over...

Rokossovsky, you are making an interesting point about team cohesion in politics. What you describe is often true -- and often not true. For example, Brian Mulroney did a brilliant job reuniting the Tories after he defeated Joe Clark for the Tory leadership, working with Robert Layton as his whip -- Jack Layton's father, from whom Jack learned his own team-building strategy and tactics.

With regard to your "worst case scenario" thing, I guess we'll never know.

Your "party establishment" are my friends and colleagues, young and old, new and experienced, men and women, former premiers and new members, committed New Democrats all, still loyal to our party and now working hard to get it elected under our leader Tom Mulcair. We all got over the leadership race long ago. Maybe you should, too.

Brian Topp wrote:

Rokossovsky, you are making an interesting point about team cohesion in politics. What you describe is often true -- and often not true. For example, Brian Mulroney did a brilliant job reuniting the Tories after he defeated Joe Clark for the Tory leadership, working with Robert Layton as his whip -- Jack Layton's father, from whom Jack learned his own team-building strategy and tactics. With regard to your "worst case scenario" thing, I guess we'll never know. Your "party establishment" are my friends and colleagues, young and old, new and experienced, men and women, former premiers and new members, committed New Democrats all, still loyal to our party and now working hard to get it elected under our leader Tom Mulcair. We all got over the leadership race long ago. Maybe you should, too.

Brian. You should never have even run in that thing. You have never held an elected post, or been a front man for a political organization, let alone the leader of the official opposition.

I have no idea why this foray was pursued at all.

I was simply observing a fact, about the obvious merits that Mulcair had in comparison to the other leadership contenders. Making Mulcair the leader was practically a forced play, in regard to criticism of the NDP leadership choice.

.

thorin_bane wrote:

I gues both the tories and liberal have problems retaining thier people too...you know since Stronach, Martin, Brison, Emerson etc etc etc have all crossed the floor as well. Do tell how this is just an NDP problem. Might I again note Emerson just 2 weeks after the election left the liberals. I guess you guys must have been saying the same thing..oh right you were complaining about how shitty and trecherous it is. But that was then and this is the NDP right.

I don't approve of all floor-crossing.  But you can't lump all those people into the same category.

And the David Emerson defection was disgusting.  Because it happened just a few days after he was elected.  That one is practically in the record books.  He definitely deserved to be criticized.  I agree with you on that one.

But how can you put Scott Brison in the same category?  He made a change for largely principled reasons.  He was a gay man who was uncomfortable with the way the Canadian Alliance took over the old PC party.  Remember that he was a PC MP -- he didn't want to be part of the new Conservative Party that took the Progressive out of its name and which still to this day won't let a single CPC MP come out!

Brison was representing a riding (Kings-Hants) which had voted for the PC's far more often than it had for the Liberals historically, so he took a risk by becoming a Liberal.  It's not as if Kings-Hants was a Liberal stronghold.  It voted Liberal in 1993, and then was right back to the PC's again in 1997 & 2000.  But because Brison is well-respected locally, he has been able to get elected repeatedly since 2004, 2006, 2008 & 2011 as a Liberal.

 Of course Brian Topp should have run, leadership untested is weak, look at Trudeau, the challenge put forth by Brian and the others only made Mulcair stronger just as running against Harper and Pierre Elliot Trudeau's ghost will make him stronger.

 I waa watching Marco Polo tonight and one thing stood out in my mind. The most important trait in a hunter is patience. Mulcair hasn't come this far amd faced the challenges he has, as well as his predassors have, for us to be intimidate by bad polls. 

Thunder Bay MP John Rafferty, who calls Glenn Thibeault his best friend on Parliament Hill, was completely in the dark. He knew Thibeault "was unhappy" but thought it was just a matter of missing his kids.

Brian Topp wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

Brian Topp wrote:

Rokossovsky, you are making an interesting point about team cohesion in politics. What you describe is often true -- and often not true. For example, Brian Mulroney did a brilliant job reuniting the Tories after he defeated Joe Clark for the Tory leadership, working with Robert Layton as his whip -- Jack Layton's father, from whom Jack learned his own team-building strategy and tactics. With regard to your "worst case scenario" thing, I guess we'll never know. Your "party establishment" are my friends and colleagues, young and old, new and experienced, men and women, former premiers and new members, committed New Democrats all, still loyal to our party and now working hard to get it elected under our leader Tom Mulcair. We all got over the leadership race long ago. Maybe you should, too.

Brian. You should never have even run in that thing. You have never held an elected post, or been a front man for a political organization, let alone the leader of the official opposition.

I have no idea why this foray was pursued at all.

I was simply observing a fact, about the obvious merits that Mulcair had in comparison to the other leadership contenders. Making Mulcair the leader was practically a forced play, in regard to criticism of the NDP leadership choice.

 

Omniscience is a rare skill in politics, congratulations. I'll let you get back to your thing now. Just one more note before I go: I don't share your ungenerous opinion of our colleagues in the race. That was an impressive slate of candidates. Notwithstanding your views they all had every right to put themselves forward as options for the party to consider, as did I. The party was lucky to have good choices before it. It made it's choice. And then we all moved on. That is what democratic life in a democratic party looks like. Sorry if that baffles you.

Being strategically challenged is a bit of an NDP specialty.

Chow running for mayor was a clear mistake from the perspective of the NDP at least. And, if you check my record on this board, I said it before she decided to run. It distracted from the main issue, which was to win federally, expended resources on what amounts to a political side show, with serious long term consequnces for the organization in Toronto. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean I don't understand her personal decision.

If there is one thing that I would say would benefit the NDP it is this: "beware Liberals bearing gifts".

Selecting Mulcair was a rare moment of NDP strategic clarity. Mulcair was the only choice that made strategic sense, regardless of the quality of the candidates, and a rare moment of strategic clarity. Nikki Ashton was definitely my personal favourite, but that doesn't mean I supported her, precisely because of the objective factors.

Simillar objective factors weighed against yourself, as well.

That isn't a personal thing.

 I agree with Brian, they had the right to run. It was good that Mulcair was challenged it helped him prepared for his current rule and his future role.

-

Sounds like this has been in the works for a while, since November at least. That suggests pure opportunism, as opposed to policy disagreements on gun control.

Situation frustrates Sudbury Liberals

Quote:

Sorbara called a meeting about in late November to discuss what the riding association was going to do after newly elected New Democrat MPP Joe Cimino resigned Nov. 20 after just 5-1/2 months, said Nurmi.

Sorbara came to Sudbury and met with Nurmi and other association members, Andre Bisson, northern vice-president for the Liberals, Olivier and some of his people, and Gerry Lougheed Jr.

Olivier ran in the June 12 election, losing to Cimino by 966 votes. Nurmi said he made it clear at the November meeting his riding association wanted "an open and democratic process" to select a new candidate.

He had a "gut feeling" the meeting didn't go well because Sorbara told him and the others at the meeting that it was within the premier's purview to make an appointment. Still, he asked Sorbara to take back the association's wishes to Queen's Park.

Something to do with a local tycoon named Gerry Lougheed too.

Quote:

"In a democratic process, he should not be the one calling the shots," said Nurmi, suggesting Lougheed was putting pressure on the Liberals because he raises a lot of money for the party.

In September, Lougheed organized a $1,750-a-plate fundraiser for Wynne and the Liberals, raising more than $250,000.

Bottom line is that there is going to be some money spent in the North with the Ring of Fire deals, and it sounds like Thibeault wants to have the keys to the trough.

Skinny Dipper wrote:

Glenn Thiebeault will be like Ken Coran, the former president of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation.  Coran "negotiated" against the McGuinty government on a new teachers' contract.  In fact the secondary school teachers rejected the initial proposals.  Later, Coran ran for the Ontario Liberals in a London riding.  He was a turncoat who lost.  I think it will be the same for Thebeault.  The Sudbury riding will be strongly targetted both provincially and federally by the NDP.

The NDP may target it provincially, but it may be harder federally.  Remember that Sudbury is normally a Liberal stronghold at the Federal level.  It's only recently that the Liberals have had trouble winning it. (2008 & 2011).  Sudbury even remained Liberal during the 1984 Mulroney Landslide when John Turner was reduced to 40 seats.

Now that there is no NDP incumbent, word is going out tonight from Gerald Butts to the Liberals to find a strong candidate to run for the Liberals in Sudbury.  With Justin Trudeau far ahead of Tom Mulcair in Ontario and more likely to resonate with Franco-Ontarians, the potential exists for a Liberal return in Sudbury.

As for the provincial scene, I agree that the Ontario Liberals & Kathleen Wynne may not have handled this transition with Glenn Thibeault as smoothly as they should have.  There are some angry Liberals in the provincial riding association and this is getting some bad press tonight.  It's hard to know whether it will harm Wynne's prospects in Sudbury now, or whether it could also harm Horwath's.  Maybe it could even increase PC support in the area if people are fed up with both of them.  I'm not sure it's directly comparable to Ken Coran, though.  There are at least 2 differences.  Coran was not a well-known incumbent MP.  And Coran also antagonized the teachers & unions into organizing against him and helping the NDP instead.

Skinny Dipper wrote:

I know I have repeated myself in other comments elsewhere, but I do think Tom Mulcair will shine during the next federal election campaign.

I agree a thousand percent. On top of his winning personality he is very competent. Competence means a lot to people.

I'm not sure if it has been brought up but Thibault actually supported Mulcair in the leadership election.

This may end up causing legal trouble for Wynne and the Liberals. When she says there was no "specific offer" to the candidate to step aside you have to wonder about the word"specific". If the candidate was offered an unspecified position within the gov. the Libs may find they have some serious explaining to do.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/ndp-s-glenn-thibeault-proud-to-def...

JKR wrote:

Thibeault may have jumped to the OLP for personal gain but I can also see how Thibeault might want to be able to be on the government side in order to affect some reall changes for people.

I couldn't care less that this guy has switched parties, but he's not likely to go straight into cabinet, is he? If not, he'll be just another backbench MPP in a majority government. His job'll be to vote with the government. Any Liberal can do that. I fail to see anything special about this guy that would make him a better candidate to effect change than any other Liberal who might've run instead.

Apparently he considers himself a champion for disabled people, but Ontario Liberal governments have proven themselves to be no friend of people with disabilities. It seems an odd choice.