NDP MP quits for Ontario Liberals

Michael Moriarity wrote:

An interesting read, thanks Debater. It isn't clear what the resignation of VP Bisson has to do with l'affaire Thibeault, if anything. Also interesting that Wynne has decided she needs to go to Sudbury herself, right away, to put out the fire amongst the riding executive, who probably consider Thibeault as appealing as ebola. It will be interesting to see how that goes.

Yes, I think this is going to create some division for a while, as these things often do.  Some party crossings are bound to ruffle feathers, and they do often settle down after a while, although some of them don't.

I don't know why the OLP couldn't just have gone with the Liberal candidate they already have and who almost beat Cimino in the June election, but perhaps Wynne knows what she's doing.  She's been right before when others have counted her out (eg. the Ontario election) so this could end up working out for her in the end, but it's also possible it's going to cause a lot of unnecessary controversy in the meantime.

Don't you think your hatred of Justin Trudeau prevents you from looking at his strengths objectively?  Doesn't it also tend to lead you to make assumptions about him that may be way off base?  In a post above you even suggest that Justin may be one of the people behind the Glenn Thibeault party crossing.  There's no evidence to suggest Justin was involved in the Glenn Thibeault situation.

Maybe it's my Alberta perspective but you get the sense that these opportunistic party jumpers are going to be a drag on the party they jump to. And considering he jumped to the OLP. They look to be a pretty tawdry group. Wiping hard drives, wasting money on P3 and now getting their candidate to step down while talking to him of a possible gov.earn meant job. I mean really. They sound particularly awful.

What you and Justin Ling are ignoring debater is that the NDP ran on a platform that included a provision that floor-crossers would have to resign their seats and run in a by-election.

Hyer and the other defectors ran on that pledge. It is hardly surprising that the NDP would call on them to honour it.

nicky wrote:

What you and Justin Ling are ignoring debater is that the NDP ran on a platform that included a provision that floor-crossers would have to resign their seats and run in a by-election.

Hyer and the other defectors ran on that pledge. It is hardly surprising that the NDP would call on them to honour it.

At least Thibeault will be running in a byelection in the same riding - albeit at a different level of government - to give the voters a chance to let him know what they think of his decision. 

nicky wrote:

What you and Justin Ling are ignoring debater is that the NDP ran on a platform that included a provision that floor-crossers would have to resign their seats and run in a by-election.

Hyer and the other defectors ran on that pledge. It is hardly surprising that the NDP would call on them to honour it.

I understand that part, but what Ling is saying is that the NDP doesn't necessarily need to be so vicious in lashing out.  In the case of Lise St. Denis and what the NDP did to her phone lines, it ended up getting the NDP slapped with a fine from the CRTC!

And does it not reflect on the NDP in some way that they've had so many people quit the caucus since 2011?  You know very well that the NDP would be saying it reflected on Trudeau's leadership if a bunch of MP's had crossed the floor from the Liberals on his watch.

As for Bruce Hyer, up until now he was kind of the lone man out since the other NDP defectors had all been in Quebec.  But now with a 2nd Northern Ontario MP quitting on Mulcair, it could boost Hyer's credibility.  He's no longer the only Northern Ontario MP to leave the NDP.

Debater wrote:

nicky wrote:

What you and Justin Ling are ignoring debater is that the NDP ran on a platform that included a provision that floor-crossers would have to resign their seats and run in a by-election.

Hyer and the other defectors ran on that pledge. It is hardly surprising that the NDP would call on them to honour it.

I understand that part, but what Ling is saying is that the NDP doesn't necessarily need to be so vicious in lashing out.  In the case of Lise St. Denis and what the NDP did to her phone lines, it ended up getting the NDP slapped with a fine from the CRTC!

Oh please. Any politician who joins a political party to run for office makes a bargain with that party. They use the name of that party, the financial resources of that party, and the amassed volunteer base of that party to propel themselves to victory. The lack of success of nearly every "indpendent" candidate speaks to that fact.

There is not one "indeendently" elected member sitting in the house of commons in Canada, and probably none in any provincial legislature.

As Chuck Angus points out, it is not just about the individual running but a covenant between that person and hundreds and sometimes thousands of people that the party provides to propel them to victory.

Among other things that convenant provides that they adhere to strict party discipline on whipped votes and public statements. The strictures are well known, and part of the deal.

This is serious business that costs real money and the real volunteer efforts of numerous individuals, and the amassed credibility of a party built on traditions and history made by millions of people, not some issue of personal "identity politics", or calling your girlfriend to tell her that "its over".

Of course people are offended. They should be.

Thiebault is an even bigger jackass and whiner than he appears now, if he thinks he can pull off such a stunt, and not expect backlash from the people who he has betrayed, and to express that too him, if they have the chance.

You are acting as if he just elected himself.

Who cares? I don't. If they broke the law, then they broke the law. They probably didn't realize they were doing it when they did it, because I am sure that they would have not condoned it if they had.

Was anyone injured? Hurt? Threats made?

Tempest meet teapot.

Thiebault is an ass. It's not against the law to tell someone to "fuck off", when they piss you off. Nuff said.

Hyer sat as an independent for awhile before he joined the Greens. They couldn't care less when he joined up with Lizzie and weren't whining about it like some posters here are claiming.

Rokossovsky wrote:

Oh please. Any politician who joins a political party to run for office makes a bargain with that party. They use the name of that party, the financial resources of that party, and the amassed volunteer base of that party to propel themselves to victory. The lack of success of nearly every "indpendent" candidate speaks to that fact.

There is not one "indeendently" elected member sitting in the house of commons in Canada, and probably none in any provincial legislature.

As Chuck Angus points out, it is not just about the individual running but a covenant between that person and hundreds and sometimes thousands of people that the party provides to propel them to victory.

Among other things that convenant provides that they adhere to strict party discipline on whipped votes and public statements. The strictures are well known, and part of the deal.

This is serious business that costs real money and the real volunteer efforts of numerous individuals, and the amassed credibility of a party built on traditions and history made by millions of people, not some issue of personal "identity politics", or calling your girlfriend to tell her that "its over".

Of course people are offended. They should be.

Thiebault is an even bigger jackass and whiner than he appears now, if he thinks he can pull off such a stunt, and not expect backlash from the people who he has betrayed, and to express that too him, if they have the chance.

You are acting as if he just elected himself.

We elect representatives not parties and he hasn't crossed the floor. He has resigned from federal politics to run provincially and chose a different party.

I don't know the man, but presumably he feels he can do more for his constituents as an Ontario Liberal than he could as a Federal NDP rep. If it is an NDP stronghold then the NDP will just win it back anyway so no need to hold a grudge and if it isn't an NDP stronghold then constituents are unlikely to feel betrayed.

The party may feel betrayed, but this is how our system works. Parties have to keep the support of their caucus.

Maybe we should start a thread about the five Liberal MPs not running for re-election including rising star Ted Hsu who supported Garneau than Murray in the leadership race.  Wonder if that has anything to do with Trudeau?  What did John McKay call him?  A "bozo"?  Wonder if Hsu thought the same... 

Debater wrote:

In the case of Lise St. Denis and what the NDP did to her phone lines, it ended up getting the NDP slapped with a fine from the CRTC!.

BTW other parties and individuals have been fined for the same transgression including Marc Garneau.

Rokossovsky wrote:

I getcha, so its just fine and dandy for the NDP to have spend 90,000 to "win it back again." Chump change. Spoken like a true Liberal sponger on the public purse: "Who cares? It's not my money!"

The other day you were adroitly tip toeing around the "legal" technicalities, or what is and is not "democratic" in the parliamentary procedure, purportedly in support of a broader moral standard of "right and wrong" in a discussion about the NDP motion on proportional representation because it did not purportedly give the electorate a voice in the decision making promise, today you are hiding behind a legal technicality about elected "representatives", against a broader moral standard of "right and wrong", in the case of a representative unilaterally overturning the decision of the electorate.

There must be a common denominator here, because it certainly isn't consistent in principle.

What could that be?

Let me see... could it be that in the first case you are running down the NDP and in the second you are also running down the NDP?

Nope. It's not that. It's your lack of logic. The man represented the NDP in the riding for 3 years or more then resigned to run in another election in the same area. He did not cross the floor. He did not resign after a matter of days or months. The voters will get another opportunity to pass judgement before he serves again. There is nothing undemocratic or immoral going on.

How am I running down the NDP by upholding the man's right to quit?

Getting all three parties to commit to MMP prior to the election if it were successful would be legal but not democratic because the Canadian public has not been sold on MMP. The word "democracy" is not just a legal term. It also has a philosophical meaning which is probably in far more frequent use than the legal definition.

I did not say it was the crime of the century. Just that had it worked, which it wasn't intended to do, it would have been undemocratic. As it stands it was just political gamesmanship not a serious motion.

TheSudbury Star quotes Wynne as confirming she has already appointed Thibeault as the candidate because of "electoral urgency."

I suspect that means that in order to purchase his defection she has to guarantee him the nomination he may well have lost in an open contest.

Was a sick bunch bunch of political opportunists these Liberals are. Rest assured this is going to come back to haunt them, and actually they are actually already showing signs of division over it within the Liberal party. Wynne is going to be paying a political price for this crap. He or she who laughs last, laughds best.

What's the new Liberal party like. Same as the old Liberal party.

And Trudeau displays the same Liberal arrogant "I entitled to my entitlements" attitude as Wynne.

Grits will leave association with heads held high

Members of the executive of the Sudbury provincial Liberal riding association have told Premier Kathleen Wynne they are resigning, but not until they help a newly appointed Liberal candidate "transition" to a new team.

Bill Nurmi, who has been president of the association for 20 years, said about 10 members of the executive met Thursday night to discuss how to move forward after Wynne appointed Glenn Thibeault the Liberal candidate in a byelection.

The former Sudbury New Democrat MP announced Tuesday he was resigning from the NDP and that he had been named as the Liberal to run in a byelection to fill the seat left vacant by Joe Cimino.

Cimino was elected New Democrat MPP for Sudbury on June 12 and resigned Nov. 20 citing personal family and health reasons.

Nurmi met with Wynne at the home of former long-time Sudbury MPP Rick Bartolucci on Friday morning to discuss the decision his association made. He had an open and frank discussion with the premier about how the association executive was feeling.

Wynne understood and "acknowledged our concerns," said Nurmi. He let her know, on behalf of his executive, it wasn't Thibeault the man they were opposing; it was the process by which he was named.

He and his executive felt "left on the sidelines," and their initial reaction was anger and hurt.

http://www.thesudburystar.com/2014/12/19/grits-will-leave-association-wi...

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

Maybe we should start a thread about the five Liberal MPs not running for re-election including rising star Ted Hsu who supported Garneau than Murray in the leadership race.  Wonder if that has anything to do with Trudeau?  What did John McKay call him?  A "bozo"?  Wonder if Hsu thought the same... 

Typical misleading attack on Trudeau by an NDP partisan.

1.  Irwin Cotler is going to be 75 next year and always planned to retire after this term.  He's not leaving because of Justin Trudeau.  On the contrary, Cotler endorsed Trudeau for leader.  (Check the Liberal Leadership thread).

2.  Lise St. Denis was never really a Liberal MP - she was elected as part of the NDP Orange Wave and is in her 70's and had cancer a couple of years ago.  She's ready to go back into private life.  It has nothing to do with Justin Trudeau.

3.  Gerry Byrne has been in the Federal Parliament for nearly 20 years and is ready to go into Provincial Parliament in Newfoundland and be closer to home rather than travelling across the country every week to get back home. (This is the same reason Libby Davies cited for retiring from the NDP).

4.  Frank Valeriote & his wife separated last year and his priority is to spend time with his kids.  Like many MP's, the time away from home has taken a toll on his family life, but he is still a Justin Trudeau supporter.

5.  Ted Hsu has also found the time away from his young daughters difficult and has cited this as his reason for retiring but has said he hopes to come back to elected office some day when his kids are older.

--

The other major difference between these retirements and the NDP of course is that NONE of these people quit the Liberal caucus to join another party or said their reason for retiring was because they didn't like Justin Trudeau.  That's VERY different from the NDP defections where the MP's in question have quit the NDP party and have cited problems working with Mulcair (eg. Hyer, Thibeault, Hassainia, etc.)

A totally misleading post, Hunky_Monkey, as usual.

Bingo!

nicky wrote:

I have heard anecdotally from people who know Hsiu, Valeriote and Rae that they were all dienchanted with Justin for various reasons and this is why they have given up their seats.

Reasons cited are Justin's narcisism, lack of interst in policy, and the dictatorial approach of the clique that controls him.

I understand that there is not a lot of respect in the Liberal causcus for Justin and that those who remain simply see him as their best route back to powe

 Which means when the wheels come off the bus the knives will come out.

Well, what a surprise.  A group of Liberal haters posting negative 'anecdotal' info about Justin Trudeau.

Interesting how a thread that is about the continual defection of NDP MP's under Mulcair has somehow become about JT -- like every other thread on here!

Why are NDPers so obsessed with Justin Trudeau?  Why do they want to talk about him more than about their own leader?  Are NDPers as unenthusiastic about their own leader as the Canadian public is?

Brachina, the polls are not conducted by me or any other Liberals here.  They are conducted by pollsters and the reason you get angry with them is because they show the NDP isn't as popular with the public as it is with the NDP partisans.

And is it any wonder?  The vicious attacks that are made by NDP partisans on anyone who doesn't agree with them have turned people off the NDP.  (Just look at the vicious comments someone just made about Lawrence Joseph in the Liberal candidates thread).

Glenn Thibeault: Why I did what I did

Jan 19, 2015

Excerpt:

Six years ago, I ran federally to represent Sudbury because, simply, I wanted to work for Sudbury. I ran for the NDP because I wanted to work with Jack Layton.

He had a message of hope and a vision that politics could be about more than partisanship and vicious attacks. 

Since his death, however, much has changed. My work on behalf of the people of Sudbury grew and changed, as I learned how to serve my constituents more effectively. And, with Jack gone, the NDP changed. There came a time when I could no longer reconcile my goals and values for this great city, with those of the NDP. 

----

http://www.northernlife.ca/mobile/displayarticle.aspx?id=90650

It's certainly true that Thibeault's piece in Northern Life has some self-serving spin in it, but don't forget the NDP is doing some spinning of its own.

While Thibeault may be an opportunist, it's not as if he's the only NDP MP to defect under Mulcair's leadership.  This is not an isolated incident.

1.  Lise St. Denis (actually left under Nycole Turmel's leadership, but cited Jack Layton as a reason for leaving).

2.  Claude Patry (defected to the BQ)

3.  Bruce Hyer (said it was no longer the party of Jack Layton and that he had issues with Mulcair).

4.  Sana Hassainia (said Mulcair led by fear instead of hope like Layton).

5.  Jean-Francois Larose (defected to F&D)

6.  Glenn Thibeault (defected to Ontario Liberals citing issues with Mulcair's leadership).

But regardless of what Thibeault's precise reasons are, the fact remains that it is the latest defection in a long series that have occurred in the NDP during this session of Parliament.

Only one Conservative MP has quit on Harper (Brent Rathgeber), and Trudeau hasn't had any defections at all.

So to come back to the key question, is there not an issue with Mulcair's leadership that has caused about half a dozen MP's to defect over the past 3 years?

nicky wrote:

i will repsond to some od debater's points.

1. As usual for him Debater gloats in the defection of Lise St Denis to the Liberals without acknowledging the facts behind the defection. When she was elected as MP for Champlain she was truly just a name on the ballot, never stepping foot in the riding and being swept to victory solely because she was the NDP candidate. There were a number of other Quebec MPs in the same category. The party encouraged them to move into their ridings and set up organizations. St Denis refused to do so. She also declined to do any constituency work, though her medical condition may have been a factor. She was becoming an embarrassment locally. The party told her to either perform her duties as an MP or resign so she could be replaced in a by-election by someone prepared to do the job. The Liberals cynically recruited her in order to embarrass the NDP and claim some sort of Quebec momentum. Wanting to continue to collect her salary without doing anything at all for it St Denis found her natural home in the Liberal party. She has never been heard from since except when Debater gloats about her defection.

2. Patry left because he did not consider the NDP nationalist enough. He is not running in the next election.

3. Hyer left in a pique because he was not given a place in the shadow cabinet. 

4. Hassana has just about the lowest attendance record in the hosuse. She was going to be opposed for the nomination in any event and is not running again.

5. Larose also left when it became apparent that he would lose the nomination to a heavyweight candidate.

6. Thibeault was bribed by an unscrupulus Liberal Party which may face prosecution for violating the Elections Act.

I beliebve there are 8 NDP MPs not running again or about 9%. There are 5 Liberal MPs so far who are stepping down or about 14%. Debater seems to ignore this statistic.

 Home run, you just crushed Debater.

nicky wrote:

I've read Thibeault's explanation for switching parties. Apart from saying that thw NDP has changed now that Layton is gone, he doesn't give any reason to criticize the party.

In fact he doesn't provide a single example let alone a substantive reason why he has abandoned the NDP. Since he is utterly unable to explain himself the obvious reason is personal ambition and the alure of Liberal bribes.

He does give reasons that I find clear:

“Glenn, why the switch?”

Six years ago, I ran federally to represent Sudbury because, simply, I wanted to work for Sudbury. I ran for the NDP because I wanted to work with Jack Layton.

He had a message of hope and a vision that politics could be about more than partisanship and vicious attacks....And, with Jack gone, the NDP changed. There came a time when I could no longer reconcile my goals and values for this great city, with those of the NDP.

But the issues I most frequently dealt with as your MP were related to health care, education and infrastructure — areas that actually fall under provincial jurisdiction.

Ontario’s new premier, Kathleen Wynne, came onto the scene with a positive, collaborative approach to government. I was drawn to her message that government can be a force for good in people’s lives, and that our best days are ahead of us if we work together to address the challenges we face.
I don’t have much time for those who think the only work that matters is done by people wearing their team’s colours.

My allegiance is to the people of Sudbury.

His allegiance is to Sudbury not the NDP nor to a particular level of government. He originally chose the federal NDP because he liked Layton. Now he finds the NDP is more partisan than he cares for and the topics that most concern him fall under provincial jurisdiction. He likes Wynne and thinks he can get stuff down for Sudbury by working with her.

What's not clear?