New Forum one for NDP one for Liberal

7 posts / 0 new

Thu, 2015-04-02 14:08

Sean in Ottawa

There are some forums here that are not partisan or should not be – news, international news, labour, environment, feminism. Then we have politics and elections forums that have almost no productive conversation anymore. These two forums drive people apart more than they bring anyone together and there is no effort to find agreement – only to bludgeon the other. The new definition of progressive (instead of those not in the main traditional parties it is those who are not ultra conservative) has turned this place into a battle between NDP and Liberal.

Maybe we should add an NDP forum and a Liberal forum for the more party discussions. Those posting in threads in each forum can respect the point of view of the forum. If you want to argue against the forum’s party go to the general political forum.

The Liberals will have their space to trash talk the NDP and the NDP can discuss NDP ideas, strategy and aspirations without the context of Liberal attacks and sarcasm. People could simply opt out of engagement with the hostile party including having to read through the latest partisan attacks or, if they want, go to the politics forum and duke it out if they choose. But this would allow them to continue to discuss ideas about their party with others who share the same vision.

Maybe this idea could save this place. A taste of the election and politics forums is enough for people to want to run away and never come back. Without as much confrontation in shared threads people might explore someof the other topic areas babble has to offer. Those who want to blow off steam at a party can put this in their own party's forum rather than enraging others.

There are political ideas that a person might want to float with others who share their party views and this place could be a good place for that if we can get the opposition out of each forum.

This would not replace or prevent engagement. It would make engagement with people hostile to your party an option rather than an inescapable burden.

Thu, 2015-04-02 14:22

Sean in Ottawa

The reason I am no longer confident that there is any hope that Liberals and NDP supporters can share ALL the forums without having a place to retreat to without the other is a recent conversation. Here is a comment from that:

"I used to think so highly of progressves. I never imagined they would be the bullies. Those were in my idealistic days when I thought progressives wouldn't be rapists or mysogynists either. Babble is certainly an eye opener concerning the character of progressives. Progressives, at least on babble, are just as vicious and mean-spirited as bullies anywhere else and bystanders are just as likely to standby and say nothing. Fortunately I have a thick skin. It's amusing to see how superior the bullies think they are when they share core values with Harperites in how they treat people."

I can’t but help think that those who you hate progressives so much might be happier not spending so much time with them. The interactions on this board between Liberals and NDP supporters are mostly unpleasant and unproductive. Perhaps the best solution is that they don't exist.

There was a time when this place was defined as FOR progressives. Now it is bombarded by supporters of a mainstream establishment party who are uninterested in conversation, discussion or argument. Instead it is a steady stream of taunts, sarcasm, feeds of anti NDP propaganda from the MSM, trolling designed not to convince or educate but to enrage. One person has now limited himself to a stream of sarcastic trolling without any other content. We have thousands of words fighting basic history such as whether the Liberal party fell in 2005 because of the NDP or their sponsorship scandal. Huge volumes blaming the existence of the NDP for the Liberal’s bad campaign in 2011 and the Harper majority government. The effect is that there is a choice: you come to these forums to fight the Liberal attack stream or you don’t come at all. Everything is reduced to this.

I don’t like what happens to NDPers either when they are under attack, defensive, angry by every post from Liberals eager to define this place as Liberal. People who are fighting are never attractive. And the first rule of war is that it replaces discussion.

I would prefer to engage with progressive people without that -- In a context where we can afford to be critical of our own movements without feeding trolls. Here, the stream of attack is so consistent that all conversation is polarized for or against a party. Party loyalty in this context by necessity replaces innovative ideas, self criticism and exploration.

This prevents this site from carrying out its mandate of being a place where progressives could discuss critically from a progressive viewpoint. In Harper’s Canada the definition of progressive has changed radically. The CPC is so extreme that anyone not Conservative is now defined as progressive and this new definition means that old-line establishment Liberals are today defined as progressive and adopting this label. And they are taking this place away from what used to be progressive discussion. The result is babble is becoming a mainstream place like the CBC pages often are—just without Conservative trolls. It is now a battleground between establishment Liberal activists and what used to be those who were the ones defined as progressive. The Liberals are winning because they are more willing to fight on this ground.

I see that for at least three people here the vast majority of posts are meant to needle, derail, make fun of, or otherwise attack any person or conversation that might be friendly to the NDP. These are not posts by Liberals coming here to find what they have in common with progressives, they are meant to be political campaigning against the biggest party that came out of the progressive movements in Canada in favour of one of the “cat” parties. Tommy Douglas would have a fit.

If there could be a way of limiting the most partisan posts to forums where people have the same party preference the head butting may be reduced or avoided by those who want to avoid it.

This does not mean the partisans should never post in the other forum -- just that they should not do it often and not use it to campaign, insult or attack that party. They have their own forum to do that.

There are no places now to discuss ideas from a progressive left of centre viewpoint, without it becoming a war with Liberal party partisans here to tell us we are wasting our votes or that the NDP is bad and the Liberal party is wonderful. There are a good many people who do not come here to engage with the old line traditional parties about what it means to be a progressive.
We have enough divisions on our own that we can no longer explore, learn and resolve without giving the next troll ammunition.

Thu, 2015-04-02 16:10

Paladin1

Hey Sean. I can't really contribute much to your well thoughtout posts other than pointing out (okay suggesting) that a forum devoted to the NDP would see more traffic from nay sayers and critics than actual members. The same with a liberal forum.

The nature of internet message forums is that people are attracted to confrontational and negative threads and less so with supportive positive ones.

Thu, 2015-04-02 16:20

Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 wrote:

Hey Sean. I can't really contribute much to your well thoughtout posts other than pointing out (okay suggesting) that a forum devoted to the NDP would see more traffic from nay sayers and critics than actual members. The same with a liberal forum.

The nature of internet message forums is that people are attracted to confrontational and negative threads and less so with supportive positive ones.

I agree the temptation would be strong. But I was hoping some kind of truce if you like could be arranged where Liberal boosting posts could go in a forum for them and NDP ones in the NDP one and people agree not to spam the other with propaganda. I am trying to think of some way for there to be a separation at least for some conversations.

It would be an experiment. But it might be worth doing. There would still be a meeting place -- but this would be a place where people would be asked to respect-- the Liberals not attacking the NDP in the NDP forumand visa-versa.

Thu, 2015-04-02 17:20

6079_Smith_W

Thing is, if people could be trusted to be respectful there would be no need for send them to their rooms in the first place.

Interesting idea, I just don't see any "truce" lasting until the ink is dry.

Thu, 2015-04-02 19:21

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I can’t but help think that those who you hate progressives so much might be happier not spending so much time with them. The interactions on this board between Liberals and NDP supporters are mostly unpleasant and unproductive. Perhaps the best solution is that they don't exist.

There was a time when this place was defined as FOR progressives. Now it is bombarded by supporters of a mainstream establishment party who are uninterested in conversation, discussion or argument. Instead it is a steady stream of taunts, sarcasm, feeds of anti NDP propaganda from the MSM, trolling designed not to convince or educate but to enrage. One person has now limited himself to a stream of sarcastic trolling without any other content. We have thousands of words fighting basic history such as whether the Liberal party fell in 2005 because of the NDP or their sponsorship scandal. Huge volumes blaming the existence of the NDP for the Liberal’s bad campaign in 2011 and the Harper majority government. The effect is that there is a choice: you come to these forums to fight the Liberal attack stream or you don’t come at all. Everything is reduced to this.

I don’t like what happens to NDPers either when they are under attack, defensive, angry by every post from Liberals eager to define this place as Liberal. People who are fighting are never attractive. And the first rule of war is that it replaces discussion.

I would prefer to engage with progressive people without that -- In a context where we can afford to be critical of our own movements without feeding trolls. Here, the stream of attack is so consistent that all conversation is polarized for or against a party. Party loyalty in this context by necessity replaces innovative ideas, self criticism and exploration.

This prevents this site from carrying out its mandate of being a place where progressives could discuss critically from a progressive viewpoint. In Harper’s Canada the definition of progressive has changed radically. The CPC is so extreme that anyone not Conservative is now defined as progressive and this new definition means that old-line establishment Liberals are today defined as progressive and adopting this label. And they are taking this place away from what used to be progressive discussion. The result is babble is becoming a mainstream place like the CBC pages often are—just without Conservative trolls. It is now a battleground between establishment Liberal activists and what used to be those who were the ones defined as progressive. The Liberals are winning because they are more willing to fight on this ground.

I see that for at least three people here the vast majority of posts are meant to needle, derail, make fun of, or otherwise attack any person or conversation that might be friendly to the NDP. These are not posts by Liberals coming here to find what they have in common with progressives, they are meant to be political campaigning against the biggest party that came out of the progressive movements in Canada in favour of one of the “cat” parties. Tommy Douglas would have a fit.

If there could be a way of limiting the most partisan posts to forums where people have the same party preference the head butting may be reduced or avoided by those who want to avoid it.

This does not mean the partisans should never post in the other forum -- just that they should not do it often and not use it to campaign, insult or attack that party. They have their own forum to do that.

There are no places now to discuss ideas from a progressive left of centre viewpoint, without it becoming a war with Liberal party partisans here to tell us we are wasting our votes or that the NDP is bad and the Liberal party is wonderful. There are a good many people who do not come here to engage with the old line traditional parties about what it means to be a progressive.
We have enough divisions on our own that we can no longer explore, learn and resolve without giving the next troll ammunition.

Personally I stay out of the NDP threads almost 100% but I definitely see NDP supporters needling and baiting in the Liberal threads.

Your entire post assumes that people who vote for the Liberal party can't be progressives.

If NDPers want a forum here I think they should have one. Why not? If there are any Liberals who want want they should ask for it.

Fri, 2015-04-03 13:29

quizzical

LMAO you created a thread just specifically to bash the NDP.