What Liberals are missing when they feel persecuted here

102 posts / 0 new

Sun, 2015-04-12 01:37

jjuares

Left Turn wrote:

I consider myself a Marxist/socialist with views well to the left of the NDP, although I do vote for the NDP due to a lack of any better party to vote for. I rarely post in the politics threads anymore, because any voices that are not Liberal or NDP partisan get ignored.

I actually don't consider Pondering to be the worst offender at this point. I do wish she would stop posting unprovable points such as "When justin releases his platform, Liberal support will rise", "The Liberals are better positioned to make positive change", "The NDP is no better than the Liberals", "The Liberals platform will include a childcare plan", and "The Liberals will not finish third", but overall I think Pondering's behaviour has improved over what it was.

The bigger problem to me is the dominance of babble by Debater and North Report. The majority of threads are started by these two, and the majority of these are redundant. Debater's repeatedly asserts that "Ontario is a conservative province where the NDP can't win", and accuses NR of being a Conservative Party supporter. NR constantly asserst his opinions as fact, and is repeatedly antagonistic towards Debater. If I stop posting here altogether, it will most likely be because of these two.

That and the fact that the moderators are not stepping in to deal with this problem. Warnings, backed up by the threat of suspensions and bannings, need to be used. No babbler should be above this. Unfortunately, the mods appear to bee awol most of the time now.

It is too bad that you don't post here. I am not a Marxist but a social democrat but I feel that the NDP is due a critique from the left. And yes there are so any redundant threads including one polling thread for each company!

Sun, 2015-04-12 01:55

#53

6079_Smith_W

Left Turn wrote:

In any case, the mods popping in periodically to ask pepople to please play nice is not sufficient to deal with the problems that babble is facing.

On the other hand, when they do act, what happens...

Sun, 2015-04-12 03:09

#54

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The Liberal then calls any response to the pro-Liberal flow as a personal attack no matter how directly and exclusively the response is aimed at the post rather than the person. This is the claim of persecution. There are probably a hundred examples of this from the same person.

There is a pattern of constant provocation and attack and then running behind the shield of allegations of personal attacks when the responses in most cases have been limited, even when angry, to the behavior and words of the poster.

Then it should be easy to find a few examples. I don't have to go far to find evidence of your obsession over my support for Trudeau's Liberals.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
I take the criticism that the NDP at moments can be like the establishment parties but it is not one of the establishment parties or accepted by the national media as are the Liberals and Conservatives. And for this reason the NDP remains one of the reasons this place is here-- not the only reason but one of the voices this place was designed to help be heard. The Liberal party is one of two VERY loud voices that this was to be an alternative to. So I started this in part to challenge the assertion that all parties are equally the purpose of this site. Arguably the NDP is at times at the edge of that definition but the Liberal party is definitely outside that.

The NDP is about an inch left of the Liberals. Mulcair gets plenty of positive attention in the mainstream press. They are still gushing over his performance cross examining Harper over the Duffy affair. No political party forms part of the reason this place is here.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
Pondering is clever. She does not defend her aggressive pro-Liberal party cheerleading and promotions that takes over many threads. She does not defend the volume of posts that are meant to attack the NDP. Instead she points to the TINY minority of her posts that are on other topics and tries to frame this as about her person. It never has been. This is about the attempt to correct non-Liberal points of view and the snowing of this place by Liberal talking points. It is in response to her assertion that this place is to be equally open to ongoing promotion of one of the establiehment parties. I simply had the audacity to point out that this is not why this place was created.

This place was not created for any political parties.

Ongoing promotion of any political party is not what this place is for. It is for discussing Canadian politics and posters are allowed to have positive or negative opinions about any political party or politician as long as those opinions don't contravene policy in some way.

I don't need to defend my right to support Trudeau or to criticize Mulcair anymore than you do to do the opposite.

Julie Van de Valk is just the type of young person that Canada's major progressive political parties want to attract. There's just one problem: she's not impressed by any of them. Van de Valk, 20, is a third-year geological engineering student at the University of British Columbia. In her spare time she helps run a campaign to divest the school's endowment from oil and gas companies. Climate change is so urgent that "it's not something we can wait another day to address," she told The Tyee.

Van de Valk does not fit the prevailing stereotype of Millennials: lazy, apathetic and uninformed. She's so passionate about global warming she spent a recent Saturday knocking on doors in Vancouver as part of a Storm the Riding campaign to raise awareness of climate solutions. But Van de Valk refrained that day from endorsing a specific political party. None of them, in her opinion, "are addressing climate change with the type of leadership that people who understand the issue want to see."

http://thetyee.ca/News/2015/04/06/Young-Voters-Could-Defeat-Harper/

The NDP isn't attacking neoliberalism, speaking against CETA with the exception of the investor state mechanism. They aren't saying the oil sands have to be ramped down. They aren't speaking out against Canada's arms industry. I applaud them for standing up against C 51 and against the ISIS misson but it doesn't make them the only choice for progressive people. The NDP has to earn their votes.

It is clear that you are not so much missing the point as avoiding it. You are unreachable and therefore there is no point continuing this.

Sun, 2015-04-12 10:50

#55

Pondering

Left Turn wrote:
I actually don't consider Pondering to be the worst offender at this point. I do wish she would stop posting unprovable points such as "When justin releases his platform, Liberal support will rise", "The Liberals are better positioned to make positive change", "The NDP is no better than the Liberals", "The Liberals platform will include a childcare plan", and "The Liberals will not finish third", but overall I think Pondering's behaviour has improved over what it was.

Thank-you, I have been making an effort and I'm glad you shared your thoughts.

On the unprovable points, they form part of my reasoning for supporting the Trudeau Liberals for 2015. Because they are unprovable, or difficult to prove, it is up to readers to assess whether or not they are reasonable conclusions.

Consider the following:

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/the-inner-circle-inside-trudeaus-economic-advisory-team/

That is an illustrious group of people that know what they are talking about. Reading that article convinced me that the Liberal economic platform will be excellent. It's true that I don't have proof but I don't need proof. If other people think I am too easily impressed and this economic advisory team might put forth a really crappy economic plan they are entitled to their opinion. I won't argue the point.

A Liberal spokesperson did say they had an innovative childcare plan but I haven't got a link to it. Even if I had not read that I would still be certain that the Liberals will have a daycare plan of some sort. Everyone knows they had one in the works in 2005 and since then national daycare has gained in prominence. It has economic benefits so it is an easy sell. The lack of one is a major critique of the Harper government. To me it's a no brainer that Trudeau will have it in his platform. Because I heard it described as innovative I am guessing that it will be means tested to exclude families like his own.

Based on Liberal fund-raising results, the poll numbers he has maintained longterm, and the caliber of people he has attracted to run, I think Trudeau has solid base support so I don't see his support dropping much more if at all. Of course it is within the realm of possibility that the Liberals would drop to 3rd again. In my estimation it's not going to happen.

I am not alone in acknowledging Trudeau playing his cards so close to the chest is eating into his support. It is difficult to support someone who isn't sharing his plans. Harper fatigue has risen despite the ISIS blip but NDP numbers are down from 2011.

I think it's logical to conclude that Trudeau will have a strong platform and introducing it will increase his support.

There are some posters who are convinced greater exposure will decrease Trudeau's support. From his performances in interviews I think the opposite. It's fair to share those conclusions on both sides.

No one here is sticking to facts. I regularly read negative theories regarding how Trudeau will fair during campaign season and ridiculously exagerated statements. How about that thread about Trudeau's almost daily "gaffes". 365 days in a year, has Trudeau even made a hundred of these so-called gaffes? Babble does not stick to factual information not that it should. This isn't a newspaper. Everyone is expressing opinions.

I can't say that I am marxist or socialist or anti-capitalist. I am anti-oligarch and I believe the key to increasing democracy lies in opening up government data well beyond sunshine lists.

Sun, 2015-04-12 14:56

#56

Pondering

I missed responding to this.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
But by the time I come to rabble.ca, I have already read, more often than I need to, Liberal and Conservative talking points. I understand why New Democrats come here to present what may not be found elsewhere. Liberals here should understand that for New Democrats this is the only source they may have for this vision. This is why I suggested a reserved forum here for them.

Liberals aren't standing in the way of a reserved forum for NDP supporters. I'm all for it.

Sun, 2015-04-12 15:45

#57

jjuares

Pondering wrote:

Left Turn wrote:
I actually don't consider Pondering to be the worst offender at this point. I do wish she would stop posting unprovable points such as "When justin releases his platform, Liberal support will rise", "The Liberals are better positioned to make positive change", "The NDP is no better than the Liberals", "The Liberals platform will include a childcare plan", and "The Liberals will not finish third", but overall I think Pondering's behaviour has improved over what it was.

Thank-you, I have been making an effort and I'm glad you shared your thoughts.

It's not really much of a compliment. LOL But oh well.

Sun, 2015-04-12 16:08

#58

quizzical

Pondering wrote:
It is perfectly valid for progressives to choose to vote Liberal based on their policies and ability to deliver results.

they sure have delivered results.. results impacting us today.

napfta making us slaves to USA corporations for evermore

no national child care program leaving 10's of thousands of children hungry and poor because their parents can't afford childcare, food and housing expenses

increased numbers of food banks because they continued to make their friends rich off the backs of hard working canadians and gutted social infrastructure transfer payments to do it.

supported the conservatives in all their actions so they could continue the liberal's make the rich richer policies.

failed to impliment a national energy program protecting canadian's natural resources.

failed to impliment environmental protections like they said they would.

oh i could go on and on but you get the point....

[/quote]

Sun, 2015-04-12 17:30

#59

Pondering

quizzical wrote:

Pondering wrote:
It is perfectly valid for progressives to choose to vote Liberal based on their policies and ability to deliver results.

they sure have delivered results.. results impacting us today.

napfta making us slaves to USA corporations for evermore

no national child care program leaving 10's of thousands of children hungry and poor because their parents can't afford childcare, food and housing expenses

increased numbers of food banks because they continued to make their friends rich off the backs of hard working canadians and gutted social infrastructure transfer payments to do it.

supported the conservatives in all their actions so they could continue the liberal's make the rich richer policies.

failed to impliment a national energy program protecting canadian's natural resources.

failed to impliment environmental protections like they said they would.

oh i could go on and on but you get the point....

[/quote]

I do get the point, but there have also been positive achievements by the Liberals in the past and parties evolve as conditions evolve. The NDP isn't promising to roll back all the tax cuts.The provincial NDPs have passed some progressive policies but nothing dramatic. All the provinces signed up to CETA. World wide the pendulum is swinging away from austerity

Not to beat a dead horse but Kelowna and and a National Daycare plan were both on the verge of implementation when the government fell.

In my opinion the Liberals will be judged on the content of their platform and the credibility of their candidates and leader to deliver it.

Sun, 2015-04-12 20:13

#60

Pondering

jjuares wrote:
Pondering wrote:

Left Turn wrote:
I actually don't consider Pondering to be the worst offender at this point. I do wish she would stop posting unprovable points such as "When justin releases his platform, Liberal support will rise", "The Liberals are better positioned to make positive change", "The NDP is no better than the Liberals", "The Liberals platform will include a childcare plan", and "The Liberals will not finish third", but overall I think Pondering's behaviour has improved over what it was.

Thank-you, I have been making an effort and I'm glad you shared your thoughts.

It's not really much of a compliment. LOL But oh well.

OMG I acknowledged I have faults! What was I thinking! Up til now I had convinced everyone I was perfect. Now everything is ruined.

Mon, 2015-04-13 12:37

#61

swallow

The moderators are not paid any more? That's outrageous, when did it happen?

Mon, 2015-04-13 15:27

#62

mark_alfred

swallow wrote:

The moderators are not paid any more? That's outrageous, when did it happen?

Cutbacks and austerity at Rabble.

Mon, 2015-04-13 17:10

#63

6079_Smith_W

mark_alfred wrote:

swallow wrote:

The moderators are not paid any more? That's outrageous, when did it happen?

Cutbacks and austerity at Rabble.

There's a cause and a solution there:

https://secure.rabble.ca/donate/

Mon, 2015-04-13 18:12

#64

Mr. Magoo

Evidently, moderation of babble isn't high on the priority list for funding, so my guess is that we'd have to donate a lot -- enough to cover shortfalls in higher-priority areas -- before there would be sufficient funds to resume spending some to pay the mods. That, plus, if it looks like babble isn't self-destructing without paid moderation it's probably even LESS likely that any new donations would be earmarked for moderation.

That said, it would be very interesting if rabble were to allow donors to choose where they'd like their donation spent.

Mon, 2015-04-13 18:39

#65

6079_Smith_W

And if people are determined to behave like fucking jerks I can't imagine what difference paid moderation would make. They seem to be putting up with a fair bit depite not being paid already. Not a betting man, but I'd probably opt to spend the money more wisely myself.

Sun, 2016-01-03 15:05

#66

Pondering

I found this post, number 37, very disheartening.

http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/this-not-ndp-website?page=1

Apparently I shouldn't quote from it here but I could not let it pass unanswered because it is by a mod. That means I am taking the chance of being banned but it is worth it.

So, you wanna be a Liberal, be a Liberal and own it. Just know that in a lot of discussion about the NDP however, you'll be looking in as an outsider. Hell, you can even be a fiscal conservative. We even have a history of one doing well here for years, because he happened to be a very pleasant and courtious guy. *waves at Heywood*. Social conservatives can expect a short life.

What if you don't want to be a Liberal? What if you are just someone who supports Trudeau specifically and are angry at the NDP?

There seems to be just as many posters here that support Trudeau as support the NDP not because they are Liberals but because they preferred Liberal policy. This has been referred to as a Liberal invasion.

Nathan Cullen said this:

Cullen, who has been the MP from Skeena–Bulkley Valley in B.C.'s Northern interior since 2004, doesn't think so. Most New Democrats have an "allergic reaction" to big deficit spending, he said. The working poor are usually the first to understand that deficits are unsustainable, and "pay-as-you-go spending is ingrained in our thinking."

Not only is Cullen comfortable with the NDP position, he thinks the New Democrats couldn't get away with running deficits in the same manner the Liberal party can.

Deficits were and are inevidable even without the Liberal infrastructure program. Economists even in the Globe and Mail and National Post were criticizing the focus on having a balanced budget and were referring to 10 billion dollar fluctuations as no big deal given the size of our economy.

The NDP was unwilling to be truthful because the NDP believes they don't have the credibility to defend running a deficit. Instead they expected Canadians to believe that a 2% increase in corporate taxes would pay for all their promises.

The NDP is unwilling to make the progressive arguments. but we are supposed to just accept that the NDP is the progressive party.

Most people who voted Liberal and/or support Trudeau did so because he presented the most credible package not because they are Liberals.

There are many men here who vehemently defend prostitution. Is it okay for me to infer they must all be Johns due to their enthusiastic support?

It's not okay to impose identities on other people.

Understand however, that the bulk of members here are having a hard enough time sorting out their feelings about the NDP, and most of the fire coming at the party as it currently stands is coming from the left.

It is my understanding that such situations are exactly why rules of civility exist. We are adults. Having a hard time sorting out feelings is not an excuse to harass or attack other posters, or shouldn't be. Some posters that haven't been around for awhile have expressed their surprise over the abusive behavior being tolerated.

When I come across flame wars I usually can't tell who was at fault first and I generally couldn't care less. I'm just not interested and it taints the site.

How broad an audience does babble want to serve? It's valid to want to limit it to primarily activists, but you don't have many of them here. Or to activists and NDP supporters, but not a lot of those seem to hang out here either. You could add academics, but those seem few and far between as well. It seems the constituency you are aiming at doesn't want to be here or doesn't exist.

There is insufficient appreciation for those of us who don't fall in those categories.

This thread suggests separate forums for NDPers and Liberals.

http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/new-forum-one-ndp-one-liberal

I'm all for it. The Liberal forum would have no posters at all, or maybe 1. The NDP forum would have a flurry of posts from about 5 posters then it would die except for occasional flurries of trying to make it seem active, and maybe not even that.

Liberal supporters, or at least those who appear to be often wander into this crossfire, and muddy and confuse things. You are also walking into what may be an already tense family disagreement. I am of the belief that this is more often intentional, has a certain passive aggressive flavour, and thereby drawing a level of hostility.

What is more passive aggressive than throwing out that kind of accusation against members of babble? I guess you are disinterested in why former family members left. The urge is to close ranks.

Here is something else Nathan Cullen said in the same interview.

If two political leaders say the exact same thing, depending on who says it, the reception can be totally different.

That happens here too but it should not be supported by moderators.

As far as I know the only person here who identified as a Liberal is Debater and he destroyed his membership based on the Liberal position on C 51. The rest have all cited specific reasons why they decided to support the Liberals or Trudeau during this election.

Calling any of us liars is not okay. Repeately challenging our right to participate in conversations including personal slurs is not okay. If NDPers need a protected zone create one. You want a specific "no pondering zone" make one but in the general political forums I should be entitled to the same respect as anyone else.

Sun, 2016-01-03 15:23

#67

mark_alfred

Pondering wrote:

Apparently I shouldn't quote from it here but I could not let it pass unanswered because it is by a mod. That means I am taking the chance of being banned but it is worth it.

There is always the option of private messaging. It's a very good option to use when having a personal disagreement with someone (even if that someone happens to be a mod in this case), I feel. That way, you can quote to your heart's content.

Sun, 2016-01-03 18:45

#68

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Liberals aren't standing in the way of a reserved forum for NDP supporters. I'm all for it.

And the latest Pondering post is much ado about being called a Liberal rather than a Trudeau fan.

Of course the selection of threads to open up for the mod attack contains a self identification as a Liberal. At least people will not have to go far to show that Pondering actually is (when convenient) a Liberal.

***

I still think that there ought to be an experimental thread set up just for NDP supporters to work out their stuff without "advice" from opposing parties. There are also enough Liebrals here to carry a Liberal thread. Why not? If the threads die becuase nobody is interested -- so be it. If the conversation turns into somethign interesting -- without the NDP-Liberal war then that would be interesting to see.

In light of the recent vote by the NDP to support the Liberal tax gift to the well-off, I would not be able to participate in either as I no longer self-identify as NDP. Perhaps to that end it might be nice to have a thread dedicated to discussion among those looking to build a new small party -- that would also not be flooded with those telling us why we should not.

Sun, 2016-01-03 18:57

#69

Pondering

mark_alfred wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Apparently I shouldn't quote from it here but I could not let it pass unanswered because it is by a mod. That means I am taking the chance of being banned but it is worth it.

There is always the option of private messaging. It's a very good option to use when having a personal disagreement with someone (even if that someone happens to be a mod in this case), I feel. That way, you can quote to your heart's content.

It isn't a problem with a single mod or recent moderating. No members of babble should have to face repeated accusations and harassment from anyone.

I feel very strongly about prostitution. I feel the established male progressive community has betrayed women. Maybe the reasons men here give for supporting prostitution are just a cover for being johns or wannabe johns. Does that give me licence to accuse the men here of this every time they post condescendingly in favor of prostitution and attack the motivations of women who are against it?

Why should members of the NDP be free to behave this way towards people who supported Trudeau? For months TerryTowel posted "ITS OVER" for the NDP when they were down in the polls, when the Liberals were down, he switched to posting "ITS OVER" for the Liberals. There was no reason to be attacking him in the thread on if the NDP should go back to being the conscience of Canada.

You want a rule? How about no discussing of other posters negatively and no challenging of motivations unless those motivations have been expressed by the poster in question.

If babble's goal is to give progressives a place to gather and discuss issues it's failing in a huge way. Demonstrations aren't even announced here much less discussed so it doesn't seem to be attracting the community it professes to want.

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:03

#70

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Maybe the reasons men here give for supporting prostitution are just a cover for being johns or wannabe johns. Does that give me licence to accuse the men here of this every time they post condescendingly in favor of prostitution and attack the motivations of women who are against it?

Why would you need to every time? Doesn't this comment pretty much cover it?

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:14

#71

mark_alfred

Pondering wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Apparently I shouldn't quote from it here but I could not let it pass unanswered because it is by a mod. That means I am taking the chance of being banned but it is worth it.

There is always the option of private messaging. It's a very good option to use when having a personal disagreement with someone (even if that someone happens to be a mod in this case), I feel. That way, you can quote to your heart's content.

It isn't a problem with a single mod or recent moderating. No members of babble should have to face repeated accusations and harassment from anyone.

There is always the option of "Flag as offensive" in cases of harassment. No one should have to put up with harassment. To me, it seems a better idea to just flag a post rather than engaging a harasser and getting into a public brawl.

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:14

#72

wage zombie

Pondering, you often state that your posts are simply your opinions and everyone's entitled to have opinions. It seems that some here have the opinion that you're a strong Liberal supporter. They're just as entitled to their opinions as you are.

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:31

#73

mark_alfred

wage zombie wrote:

Pondering, you often state that your posts are simply your opinions and everyone's entitled to have opinions. It seems that some here have the opinion that you're a strong Liberal supporter. They're just as entitled to their opinions as you are.

No, can't agree there. If she identifies as a disgruntled NDP supporter who has now turned to Trudeau, then fine. It may be my opinion that any future association with the NDP might not ever be a good fit for her given: her open preference for FPTP, animousity to the Sherbrooke Declaration, expressed doubt of corporate taxation rather than deficit financing as a means to fund programs, preference for means tested services rather than universal services, and antipathy toward labour unions, but that doesn't give me the right to deny how she currently identifies.

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:36

#74

Mr. Magoo

I identify as a radical Marxist. Discuss.

Sun, 2016-01-03 19:52

#75

mark_alfred

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I identify as a radical Marxist. Discuss.

Thanks for your permission. I'm skeptical. Marxists aren't as cynical.

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:01

#76

lagatta

Oh, a lot of us are. You'd be surprised.

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:09

#77

mark_alfred

I stand corrected. I recall years ago travelling with a bunch of Marxists to a pro-choice rally in Washington, and that was fun. However, I did not detect any cynism from them. Rather, I got a lot of concerned questions about whether my factory job was okay (I actually wasn't working in a factory at the time, but that seemed to be how the people I was with said 'hello' to one another.)

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:09

#78

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
I'm skeptical. Marxists aren't as cynical.

And disgruntled NDP supporters don't carve statues of Justin Trudeau. You have my permission to discuss.

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:12

#79

Northern PoV

Funny - a mod shuts down the "this isn't the NDP site" thread (why? the stated reason was incomprehensible) and one of the main antagonists revives this mirror image thread to carry on his relentless mongering. And his chief opponent takes the bait. So much for the mods. ;-)

I voted Lib in October. I don't like that the F18s are still droppping bombs or that the 3 year sunset was not tacked on C51 in the first session or the NEB membership (and its current trajectory). I don't like that Bill Blair has a position of influence or that we are still anti-Palestinian. I could go on. But compared to Harper I am way happier as there is a list of positive moves too.

I don't live in Alberta but I was delighted to see the NDP win there. I don't like the new energy policy because it will provide social license to the oil sands. But I like it better than the old one and I like a lot of the other stuff they've done.

In both cases I am disappointed but not surprized. (I am old & skeptical.) The main thing is in both cases, is that some positive things are happening and just as important, the outright civic vandalism has stopped and the dialogue is shifting; we may win a few down the road if we keep going. Under Harper (or Alberta PCs) there was no effective dialogue and lots of civic vandalism.

We had a Notley victory and a Trudeau victory this year not party wins. Insulting each other and debating the past using rival google results in the aftermath is not terribly productive.

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:13

#80

kropotkin1951

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I identify as a radical Marxist. Discuss.

Everyone on this board is entitled to their personal delusions. You are a radical Marxist and Pondering is not a Liberal. You can tell from reading your posts so it must be true.

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:14

#81

Sean in Ottawa

mark_alfred wrote:

wage zombie wrote:

Pondering, you often state that your posts are simply your opinions and everyone's entitled to have opinions. It seems that some here have the opinion that you're a strong Liberal supporter. They're just as entitled to their opinions as you are.

No, can't agree there. If she identifies as a disgruntled NDP supporter who has now turned to Trudeau, then fine. It may be my opinion that any future association with the NDP might not ever be a good fit for her given: her open preference for FPTP, animousity to the Sherbrooke Declaration, expressed doubt of corporate taxation rather than deficit financing as a means to fund programs, preference for means tested services rather than universal services, and antipathy toward labour unions, but that doesn't give me the right to deny how she currently identifies.

In post 55 quoted in post 67 Pondering clearly identifies as Liberal. Then she reserects this thread to complain about being called exactly what she has identified as.

And of course we also have a history here of her praise -- to the point of firehose delivery propaganda -- not just for Trudeau but the Liberal party along with her hatred for the NDP.

It is not a huge scandal to call her what she praises, adores, and has identified herself as.

Her request is for endless double standards in her favour.

Northern P -- if you mean me -- I answered on the topic of the thread and moved it to the idea of just a single experimental thread -- the only debate I took was the fact that she came to a thread to complain in part about being called a Liberal when in the same thread she identified as Liberal. This is the only issue regarding Pondering I discussed since her post.

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:15

#82

Northern PoV

ooops ,,,,,,, apologies to Sean ... (I looked at the very first post on the thread)

Pondering: let it go

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:21

#83

mark_alfred

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I'm skeptical. Marxists aren't as cynical.

And disgruntled NDP supporters don't carve statues of Justin Trudeau. You have my permission to discuss.

Ha ha ha!

Sun, 2016-01-03 20:31

#84

mark_alfred

Agreed.

Sun, 2016-01-03 21:48

#85

oldgoat

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I still think that there ought to be an experimental thread set up just for NDP supporters to work out their stuff without "advice" from opposing parties.

We'd kill each other.

Sun, 2016-01-03 22:07

#86

Sean in Ottawa

oldgoat wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I still think that there ought to be an experimental thread set up just for NDP supporters to work out their stuff without "advice" from opposing parties.

We'd kill each other.

Sun, 2016-01-03 23:31

#87

Pondering

wage zombie wrote:

Pondering, you often state that your posts are simply your opinions and everyone's entitled to have opinions. It seems that some here have the opinion that you're a strong Liberal supporter. They're just as entitled to their opinions as you are.

They absolutely are entitled to that opinion. They aren't entitled to harangue me over it. I don't even have a problem with a thread entitled "why we think Pondering is a Liberal" or "Is a liar" or whatever other accusations they want to throw at me. I just don't think it's appropriate to disrupt thread after thread with it or with challenges to other people accusing them of having ulterior motives based on being Liberals especially when they don't identity as such.

Sun, 2016-01-03 23:33

#88

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Maybe the reasons men here give for supporting prostitution are just a cover for being johns or wannabe johns. Does that give me licence to accuse the men here of this every time they post condescendingly in favor of prostitution and attack the motivations of women who are against it?

Why would you need to every time? Doesn't this comment pretty much cover it?

No it doesn't. A single isolated comment that isn't within the thread doesn't disrupt discussion and doesn't force anyone into a defensive posture.

Saying someone who supports prostitution is a john shouldn't be an inherent insult to someone who supports prostitution. It only becomes an insult when it is used to accuse someone of having ulterior motives and to detract from the argument that they are presenting.

It become more insulting within threads that are denouncing johns, such as the current thread about why sex work isn't work.

The same goes for being Liberal. Saying someone is a Liberal isn't inherently insulting. It only becomes so when the individual has already explained that they don't identify as such and in the context in which Liberals are being accused of all sorts of nefarious sins. There was even a thread started for holding Liberal supporters to account for what the Liberals do.

I won't call quizzical a feminist, even though she appears to be from my perspective, because it is up to her to decide whether or not it is a label she identifies with. She says she doesn't so that's that. It doesn't change the arguments she presents.

It has also been suggested that Liberals shouldn't offer any opinions on where the NDP should go from here so the label does matter.

As I said, I have no problem with no Liberal supporters threads, or no Pondering threads, or an NDP only forum, whatever. Just be straight up about it. If people who support Trudeau are welcome to post in the general threads we shouldn't be attacked when we do so.

Sun, 2016-01-03 23:33

#89

Pondering

mark_alfred wrote:

Pondering wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Apparently I shouldn't quote from it here but I could not let it pass unanswered because it is by a mod. That means I am taking the chance of being banned but it is worth it.

There is always the option of private messaging. It's a very good option to use when having a personal disagreement with someone (even if that someone happens to be a mod in this case), I feel. That way, you can quote to your heart's content.

It isn't a problem with a single mod or recent moderating. No members of babble should have to face repeated accusations and harassment from anyone.

There is always the option of "Flag as offensive" in cases of harassment. No one should have to put up with harassment. To me, it seems a better idea to just flag a post rather than engaging a harasser and getting into a public brawl.

That doesn't work with this form of harrassment because individually the posts are not that offensive, or even offensive at all. It is only through repetition they become a problem and not just for the targets (I am not the only one). The issue of who is and isn't a liberal and if so how freely they should be permitted to express their opinions disrupts thread after thread.

Case in point:

mark_alfred wrote:
No, can't agree there. If she identifies as a disgruntled NDP supporter who has now turned to Trudeau, then fine. It may be my opinion that any future association with the NDP might not ever be a good fit for her given: her open preference for FPTP, animousity to the Sherbrooke Declaration, expressed doubt of corporate taxation rather than deficit financing as a means to fund programs, preference for means tested services rather than universal services, and antipathy toward labour unions, but that doesn't give me the right to deny how she currently identifies.

You are not qualified to express my viewpoints.

I would rather stay with the devil I know, FPTP, unless someone shows me why a different system would deliver better results. That has not been shown. In my opinion other democratic reforms get ignored as if MMP would solve all our problems. Countries using MMP are also having serious issues and that doesn't get acknowledged by people who support MMP.

It's time to set aside the Sherbrooke Declaration. It isn't necessary to renounce it but it should not be heralded as the central document describing the NDP's approach to or relationship with Quebec. It doesn't please federalists nor sovereignists.

I have no problem at all with corporate taxation. It should be rolled back to where it was in the 90s. The NDP never made the case for even the 2% increase so pundits said that it would be passed on to consumers and the NDP never countered the argument.

I have a preference for universal services if everyone gets access but if everyone doesn't get access then I think the neediest among us should come first.

I don't have an antipathy towards labour unions in general, I just put the interests of workers before that of labour unions.

For example, I support using liquor stores to sell marijuana because they are unionized but I think existing medical marijuana shops should also be licenced to protect those workers.

mark_alfred wrote:

No, can't agree there. If she identifies as a disgruntled NDP supporter who has now turned to Trudeau, then fine.

I don't claim to be that. At the time I supported the NDP I had some naive perception of the NDP as The Progressive Party so I voted for them. I had never heard of the Sherbrooke Declaration and wasn't aware of any particular policy.

I don't support anything at all about the Conservative party, but I still think their best bet if they want to survive is to go with Peter MacKay. Republican style politics worked for awhile but it won't work longterm. That argument doesn't gain or lose strength based on the fact that I can't imagine ever voting Conservative.

The NDP never was what I thought they were but that doesn't mean that they can't be.

Sun, 2016-01-03 23:40

#90

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

In post 55 quoted in post 67 Pondering clearly identifies as Liberal. Then she reserects this thread to complain about being called exactly what she has identified as.

And of course we also have a history here of her praise -- to the point of firehose delivery propaganda -- not just for Trudeau but the Liberal party along with her hatred for the NDP.

It is not a huge scandal to call her what she praises, adores, and has identified herself as.

It doesn't matter whether or not you are right. The conversation itself is what is disruptive.

Mon, 2016-01-04 00:15

#91

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

In post 55 quoted in post 67 Pondering clearly identifies as Liberal. Then she reserects this thread to complain about being called exactly what she has identified as.

And of course we also have a history here of her praise -- to the point of firehose delivery propaganda -- not just for Trudeau but the Liberal party along with her hatred for the NDP.

It is not a huge scandal to call her what she praises, adores, and has identified herself as.

It doesn't matter whether or not you are right. The conversation itself is what is disruptive.

Hey this was your conversation as you revived a long dormant thread to discuss.

and here is the other thing. You have a persecution thing but not a responsibility thing happening.

You think you are being persecuted because you post or are being harassed because you post. And this is where you are wrong.

Your words are read and people respond to those words and when they provoke a response that is what you get. In other words you are not being attacked for posting as you suggest -0- you are being challenged on what you post. Now it is clear that you object to being challenged but that is what you get in a place like this. When you post things that offend people they snap back and are sharp with you. And you do this more than anyone else.

Now for some reason you think it is about you. Well it isn't becuase we don't know or care who you are. what this is about is what you say and all we get are words typed here. It is the words you type that are getting the reaction.

But you have this persecution thing going on -- not a responsibility for what you say thing happening so you do not want to own your personal involvement in why you get such a bad reaction here from so many poeple.

There are fights here. And there are feuds between the odd person. But nobody but you has built up so much animus with so many people. And you think it is about your person which we know nothing about -- rather than what you say which we read tons about and respond to.

Everynow and then you write soemthign that is not offensive -- and guess what nobody goes after you for it. So maybe when you are stirring up the shit it isn't appropriate to say everyone but you smells of it.

Mon, 2016-01-04 00:31

#92

mark_alfred

Pondering wrote:

Case in point:

mark_alfred wrote:
No, can't agree there. If ...

You are not qualified to express my viewpoints.

Fair enough. My apologies.

Mon, 2016-01-04 17:24

#93

Pondering

mark_alfred wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Case in point:

mark_alfred wrote:
No, can't agree there. If ...

You are not qualified to express my viewpoints.

Fair enough. My apologies.

Thank-you Mark, I appreciate it.

Mon, 2016-01-04 17:27

#94

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
You think you are being persecuted because you post or are being harassed because you post. And this is where you are wrong.

There are less than a handful of posters who consistently go personal in threads and it isn't just against me. Terrytowel and Debater are also frequent targets. More than one NDP poster has been assumed to be a Liberal for criticizing the NDP.

If I or TT or Debater or Unionist or any number of other posters had started a thread about starting a new party to rival the NDP they would have been trashed for it. How ironic that you take such umbrage to my criticisms of the NDP then repeat much of what I have said about the NDP over the past two years.

You have been claiming for years that the moderators are against you and unfairly protect me so I would say it is you who has the persecution complex because they don't. They just don't want to be your puppet either. They can see that you attack me then have a fit because you get called a name and expect them to come riding to the rescue. I'm not going to do that anymore for the sake of the mods but if you keep it up you won't like my other answers any better.

Mon, 2016-01-04 18:41

#95

mark_alfred

Pondering wrote:

If I or TT or Debater or Unionist or any number of other posters had started a thread about starting a new party to rival the NDP they would have been trashed for it.

If you declared, "I supported the Liberal Party, but I'm so disappointed in them that I've decided to start a new party to take over from the Liberal Party!" --> I would be fully supportive of you.

Mon, 2016-01-04 19:18

#96

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
You think you are being persecuted because you post or are being harassed because you post. And this is where you are wrong.

There are less than a handful of posters who consistently go personal in threads and it isn't just against me. Terrytowel and Debater are also frequent targets. More than one NDP poster has been assumed to be a Liberal for criticizing the NDP.

If I or TT or Debater or Unionist or any number of other posters had started a thread about starting a new party to rival the NDP they would have been trashed for it. How ironic that you take such umbrage to my criticisms of the NDP then repeat much of what I have said about the NDP over the past two years.

You have been claiming for years that the moderators are against you and unfairly protect me so I would say it is you who has the persecution complex because they don't. They just don't want to be your puppet either. They can see that you attack me then have a fit because you get called a name and expect them to come riding to the rescue. I'm not going to do that anymore for the sake of the mods but if you keep it up you won't like my other answers any better.

You keep rocking on baiting and baiting and baiting.

You are told to stop so you open a new thread in reactions.

It is closed and you go and re-open a long dormant thread to keep it going. You really want me to call you a bunch of names in order for there to be a reaction and so you continue baiting and baiting and baiting hoping for a nice big fight.

However, I don't need to call you that name -- you are exactly what you appear to be and you put that on display. Each person can decide for themselves as you just go on baiting and baiting and baiting.

After all what is your purpose in this thread?

Mon, 2016-01-04 20:03

#97

mark_alfred

When you two think of each other, just think "Send PM", to spare the rest of us.

Tue, 2016-01-05 12:42

#98

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
However, I don't need to call you that name -- you are exactly what you appear to be and you put that on display. Each person can decide for themselves as you just go on baiting and baiting and baiting.

Then do let each person decide for themselves rather than repeatedly attacking my right to participate in discussions.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

After all what is your purpose in this thread?

What was your purpose in creating this thread?

Mark, what is your purpose in participating in this thread?

Tue, 2016-01-05 14:59

#99

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
However, I don't need to call you that name -- you are exactly what you appear to be and you put that on display. Each person can decide for themselves as you just go on baiting and baiting and baiting.

Then do let each person decide for themselves rather than repeatedly attacking my right to participate in discussions.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

After all what is your purpose in this thread?

What was your purpose in creating this thread?

Mark, what is your purpose in participating in this thread?

Wow -- you don't stop.

You do seem capable of understanding the difference between a challenge to what you say and a challenge to you participating at all. You just choose to misrepresent one for the other.

Perhaps, with the degree of misrepresentation and baiting you bring to the table I should be challenging your right to participation but I have not done so.

Interestingly, there is no firm rule about lying when refering to other people's posts or you would be long gone.

Tue, 2016-01-05 15:12

#100

mark_alfred

Northern PoV wrote:

Funny - a mod shuts down the "this isn't the NDP site" thread (why? the stated reason was incomprehensible) and one of the main antagonists revives this mirror image thread to carry on his relentless mongering. And his chief opponent takes the bait. So much for the mods. ;-)

Quick correction, this thread was revived in post #65.

ETA: cross-posted with others.

Northern PoV wrote:

But compared to Harper I am way happier as there is a list of positive moves too.

So far, the Trudeau Libs seem to be a big improvement over the Harper Cons.

Tue, 2016-01-05 15:34

#101

mark_alfred

Oh boo. I messed up the font with an additional unnecessary end-quote tag in post #82, which was quoted a bit later. I'll PM the person who quoted my boo-boo to try to rectify it. ETA: not that it's a big worry -- the changed font goes away once a it flips to a new page (as this here post did, since my setting is 50 posts per page). Anyway, as you were.

What Liberals are missing when they feel persecuted here

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