Oppose Canadian military mission in Ukraine!

 What military mission? I agree with you Unionist, I don't support military mission in the Ukraine, I believe in a diplomatic solution, but I'd just like to know more please as I haven't heard anything about a military mission to the Ukraine.

Of course, the question is why.  And the answer is easy.

An Ottawa Citizen analysis shows that Canadians identifying themselves as being of Ukrainian represent a potentially game-changing voting bloc in dozens of federal ridings. The fact ridings with large Ukrainian-Canadian populations in Toronto, Winnipeg and parts of Saskatchewan were hotly contested in 2011 speaks to the importance of each party being active on Ukraine.

http://www.canada.com/Ukrainians+Canada+could+game+changers+federal+election/9578956/story.html

6079_Smith_W wrote:

No. Let's let those bombs explode and those planes crash. Let's not give them that medicine or those sleeping bags. This is so wrong

yeah. And the phosphorus weapons used against Donetsk civilians, and the mass graves of civilians, and the incineration of peaceful protestors in Odessa, and the sniper fire in the Maidan from the Right Sector (now in government), and all the schools, hospitals, senior homes, water supplies, Orthodox churches, residential neighbourhoods that the Kiev putsch regime hasn't bombed yet.

Because the "sub-humans" in eastern Ukraine - as the Ukrainian PM calls them and as the viruoso pianist mockingly called herself - deserve to be "ethnically cleansed" just like the Palestinians deserve to be cleansed, the Syrians deserve, and all the other targets of the US regime and its vassals, like Canada, say so.

And when they're done cleansing everywhere else, they will continue with students in Quebec, and any babblers who are alive.

Because ... freedom! boo rah.

Security Council Calls on Parties To Implement Accords Aimed At Peaceful Settlement

http://www.un.org/press/en/2015/sc11785.doc.htm

UN Minsk 2 Protocol / Ceasefire - Annex 1 'Package of Measues'

"10. Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, as well as mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under monitoring of the OSCE. Disarmament of all illegal groups..."

Please note, this is the relevent UNSC  international agreement binding also upon Canada. By sending Canadian Forces styled as 'trainers' to Ukraine, Canada is subverting the above. Instead of 'withdrawal of all foreign armed formations', Canada is proposing to add to them.

* The Ukraine crisis has been exhaustively chronicled from the beginning, with contributions from both anti-war and pro-regime advocates.

http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/ukraine-3

I second the following:

ikosmos wrote:

Unionist wrote:

How should we proceed?

Since war is the greatest of all crimes, by virtue of containing all other crimes within it, and since sending Canadian troops to Ukraine is furthering (civil) war, therefore any involvement of Canadian troops to further that war is a crime and should be opposed by all those Canucks who oppose aggressive wars.

Maybe it's not the best way, but ikosmos already has a pretty solid proposal on the table. Drive the war (I mean the anti-war peace resistance) all the way to Kiev and there will be nothing left for warmongering Canadian sleeping bag demonstrators to butcher.

It's all about making foreign policy based on domestic politics.

http://t.thestar.com/#/article/news/canada/2015/04/14/when-it-comes-to-u...

Thanks Unionist. I just saw Trudeau surrendering to Harper again, again! 

 I don't know what Mulcair's position is, but I plan on emailing him and asking him not to support interfering in another countries civil war militarily and I encourage everyone else to do.so as well, even if your not a NDPer, we need Tom Mulcair's leadership and experience in fighting Harper on this.

 I mean they can't even hide behind terrorist or beheading or anything, its an old fashion civil war, since when do we fuck around in those, we used to send in diplomats and peacekeepers and now we send in trainer who teach how to kill better and then scream "fight, fight, fight!". WTF.

Thanks Unionist. I just saw Trudeau surrendering to Harper again, again! 

 I don't know what Mulcair's position is, but I plan on emailing him and asking him not to support interfering in another countries civil war militarily and I encourage everyone else to do.so as well, even if your not a NDPer, we need Tom Mulcair's leadership and experience in fighting Harper on this.

 I mean they can't even hide behind terrorist or beheading or anything, its an old fashion civil war, since when do we fuck around in those, we used to send in diplomats and peacekeepers and now we send in trainer who teach how to kill better and then scream "fight, fight, fight!". WTF.

Yes, e-mailing the NDP is a good idea. As for Harper and even Trudeau, I think the only proper response is demonstrations and other campaigns. They are set on unilateral support for Kiev, but they also want to be elected.

The most ill fated European adventure since Bonzo went to Bitburg

Quote:

And Mulcair, who never misses an opportunity to change his position, has now forgotten even the mealy-mouthed "it's gotta be approved by NATO or the UN first". Didn't take him long, only a couple weeks. Looking for votes, no doubt

SO unionist just making up bullshit or do you care to respond to the NDPs actual position?

In Rimouski, Que. Tuesday, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair said his party was concerned with the Harper government's "unilateral decision."

"This is not something that's even been discussed for one hour in the House of Commons," Mulcair said. 

"If NATO were to act... that would be one thing, but here this is Canada acting alone," he said, contrasting what's happening now with earlier missions to Mali and Libya, when MPs were consulted.

"Stephen Harper won't talk to Parliament... Canadians have every right to be consulted about this," he said.

​Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau called the mission "consistent with Canada's interests and capacities in the world," and told reporters in Oakville, Ont. that Canada had to "make sure that we're doing what we can to help against the unacceptable Russian actions."

While the Harper government has lacked transparency and accountability during past missions, Trudeau said he was reassured by Kenney being unequivocal about where the training was taking place and his insistence Canadian forces would not engage Russian troops.

thorin_bane wrote:

Also Trudeau in lockstep as usual. This is why the libs are further sinking in the polls

Is that really why, because I'm not so sure?  I believe the reason for this owes more to the fact that it is dawning on people that what was previously thought to be impossible, that this character Trudeau has fewer ideas ricocheting around inside of his head than even Mulcair, is becoming as plain as the light of day the more we hear from him.  It's the remnants of the public who are still interested in voting that are actually ricocheting around looking for a way out of our political dystopia.  This is what accounts for the hills and valleys of the polling industry where it concerns dead end politicks.

Slumberjack wrote:

thorin_bane wrote:

Also Trudeau in lockstep as usual. This is why the libs are further sinking in the polls

Is that really why, because I'm not so sure?  I believe the reason for this owes more to the fact that it is dawning on people that what was previously thought to be impossible, that this character Trudeau has fewer ideas ricocheting around inside of his head than even Mulcair, is becoming as plain as the light of day the more we hear from him.  It's the remnants of the public who are still interested in voting that are actually ricocheting around looking for a way out of our political dystopia.  This is what accounts for the hills and valleys of the polling industry where it concerns dead end politicks.

Thats my point, when two of the parties share pretty much the same ideology minus a few things, and the NDP an almost center right party at this point, a slightly principled one that at least requires the cover of a trumped up charge, it leaves little to vote for. But of the three I would hope to pull politics leftish with the NDP. Might not be the party I want it to be but it sadly beats tweedle dum and tweedle dummer

In this the people to pressure remain the NDP and Liberals.

The NDP ought to be clear on this. The Liberals are always susceptable to pressure as their ideology in practice is to follow public opinion.

The Conservatives don't listen or care what the public thinks and can be reached only when the opposition parties gain on them in the polls.

This is why punishing Trudeau when he backs up Harper is ore effective than going after Harper himself. When Trudeau turns himself into a fig leaf for Harper, public opposition to Harper becomes much more difficult -- but not impossible as we have seen with Bill C-51.

I'm not sure that it's a question of which party to lobby. Maybe it's a question of how to build up an anti-intervention movement - as with other cases where Canada has considered military interventions overseas. Maybe "no deployments oversaeas without parliamentary and public debate" is a useful tactic, even. Since the problem here is that these things are more and more done in secret. 

PS the "sub-humans" quote may not be accurate, as discussed on other threads, but continues to be repeated as fact. Maybe that sort of stuff could go on one of the many other Ukaine threads and tis thread could be kept clear for discussion of Canadian intervention? 

Well, yeah, if you're saying that the anti-war movement needs to be energized in this country that's a very important and significant problem. We all know that the Liberals and NDP have to be beaten around the head and shoulders, and have their ears boxed once a day every day, just to get them to move towards public anti-war sentiment. The whole Israel/Palestine conflict is only the most egregious example  of bleating, sheep-like unanimity among the Parliamentary cretins ... I mean MPs ....

Russia spent more on the Sochi Olympic Games than the GNP of most of the Baltic States. Why the hell would they give a sh*t about such countries or want to invade them? This "Russian threat" garbage is based on a steaming pile of animal droppings. None of this crap holds any water. ffs.

*Canada Sending Troops To Ukraine is Exactly the Wrong Thing to Do   -  by Paul Robinson

http://russia-insider.com/en/canada-sending-troops-ukraine-exactly-wrong...

"...Ukraine's greatest strategic blunder has been the Anti-Terrorist Operation itself. Support for rebellion was actually fairly low a year ago, and the numbers willing to protest, let alone take up arms, were small. A year of living in cities which are being shelled has driven thousands of Donbas residents into the rebel armies.

Listening to Canadian politicians and generals speak on the matter, it appears that they view the conflict in Ukraine in utterly black and white terms - the war is the result of 'Russian aggression' period. That implies that the solution lies in 'standing up to Russia.' But this is a grotesque oversimplification of reality.

While Russia shares some responsibility for what has happened, the rebels aren't rebelling because Moscow told them to. They are doing so because they dislike the Ukrainian government. Deterring 'Russian aggression' is irrelevent to this.

A route to a political settlement does exist. It was laid out in the Minsk II agreement according to which Kiev must negotiate constitutional reforms with the representatives of the provinces of Donetsk and Lugansk. Ukraine cannot defeat the rebels by military means. That is now impossible, regardless of how much training Canada or any other country provides.

Unfortunately the training mission not only doesn't contribute to this [negotiated settlement] but is also likely to strengthen the hand of those within the Ukrainian government who believe that no compromise is necessary. [its intention]

Politically, therefore, the Canadian mission sends entirely the wrong signals to Kiev, indicating that Western states will support it regardless of the errors it makes and regardless of willingness to take the steps required for peace."

*please circulate and distribute especially to all Canadian politicians and war-party supporters.

Power-Play MPs Weigh-In on Canadian Soldiers to Ukraine

http://goo.gl/FszBbb

MPs Bezan, Freeland, Laverdiere

All in Favour

Ukrainian Canadian Congress President Paul Grod: Reaction

http://goo.gl/007CDz

"Glad to see there is full political support, all three parties, for this initiative."

6079_Smith_W wrote:

If that is the case, and I have read conflicting reports about it, somehow I don't think the Canadian army will have too much to teach Azov about how to fight, considering who they have taken on already.

Besides, if we actually look at the damage and atrocities that have been committed by both sides, the lions share has been done by the regular army and the rebels and the Russians; not the so-called far right militias. And even though both sides are rotten with Nazis, all evidence suggests Ukraine pales in comparision to the number of rightists in some European countries and Russia. So this flipping out about symbols and political values is really nonsense.

The recurrent Nazi apologetics and obfuscation from smith.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

One good thing though, it 's refreshing that people have stopped making the false claim that Ihor Kolomoyski is behind Azov - funny that it coincides with him no longer being governor of Dniepropetrovsk.

"Funny" indeed, despite smiths smarmy innuendo here, I've never mentioned Kolomoyski before; yet, even according to the pro-Azov Kjev Post, the oligarch Kolomoyski was a major funder of the Azov, Dnipro and Donbas battalians. (Though the Interior minister downplay's his ousted rival's role in favour of Ministry support for the integrated Nazi storm troups).

Quote:

The Dnipro, Azov and Donbas battalions, which together have some 3,700 active fighters, benefited from Kolomoisky's patriotic generosity. The battalions, which are part of Ukraine's Interior Ministry, have often been referred to as “Kolomoisky's private army.”

But Interior Minister Arsen Avakov has insisted that the battalions are now well integrated into his ministry, and other have said that Kolomoisky's influence is “very much exaggerated.”...

Kjev Post

NDP Condemns Violence in Ukraine

http://www.ucc.ca/2014/02/18/ndp-condemns-violence-in-ukraine/

"New Democrats are appalled by the escalating violence in Ukraine..."