Vietnam liberation 40 years ago

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lagatta
Vietnam liberation 40 years ago

I know this is evidence of ageing boomerdom, but the Vietnamese victory over the US at the end of April 1975 (and some allies, such as Australia), after their victory over France in 1954, was a defining moment for many of us who spent much of our youth marching and protesting against this protracted war with its enormous use of chemical weapons as well as conventional bombs against a much smaller and poorer country; the Vietnamese winning with much cruder weaponry (but with great military strategists), as they had won over the French two decades earlier.

It was an inspiration for many people and peoples around the world. Yes, a civil war is never "polite" and there were many people who had supported the US-tied regime, and others who had different reasons not to support the new government who fled the country. But the Vietnamese achievement had an impact on a whole generation on all continents and made many of us anticapitalists who refused societies based on exploitation and oppression, and imperialism abroad. Yes, many of these young leftists sold out or gave up (we can name some infamous cases) but there are people, including the founder of rabble, whose commitment to the struggle has been a lifelong one.

Slumberjack

From the beginning, American political leadership has never been anything other than a conspiracy of criminals, mass murderers, and thieves.  Same as Canada.  They differ only in scale.

lagatta

A conspiratorial view of history, even of class rule, is not particularly refined or useful.

And why on earth do you use "American" to mean "US"? That's something we scrupulously avoid in social forums, meetings of progressive movements in the Americas, etc.

Unionist

A glorious anniversary indeed - thanks for the reminder, lagatta!

And by the way, there are other amazing photos [url=http://gigapica.geenstijl.nl/2009/05/vietnam.html]here[/url], many of which will be familiar to us boomers.

 

Slumberjack

The Vietnam War provided me with some of the earliest indications as a young child that not all was right with the world.  In our house the evening news came on just before the cartoons.

swallow swallow's picture

This was before my time, but the image of the helicopters taking off has always been such a defining image of the retreat of US imperialism: showing it can be beaten. 

This week, friends have been celebrating the anniversary of the Carnation Revolution, when the Portuguse overthrew their US-backed fascist government (25 april 1974). 

Months after the fall of Saigon, the US backed another brutal war in the region, encouraging its friends in the Indonesian military dictatorship to invade East Timor, partly to prevent it being "infected" with left-wing sentiment. Indonesian occupation meant 200,000 plus killed. But the Timorese people, too, won in the end. 

These victories are definitely worth celebrating. 

I suppose it's also worth celbrating the work of people who welcomed refugees from Vietnam -- a big shift to Canadain immigration policy and the genesis of an important community in Canada. 

lagatta

Yes, the 25th of April is liberation (from fascism) day in Portugal (1974) and also in Italy (1945). A big national holiday in both countries, and a "bridge" to May Day. Of course I don't remember the Italian liberation from the "Nazifascists" (that is not verbal overkill, it is short for the alliance between German Nazis and Italian fascists who fought on in the notorious Republic of Salo) but knew people who were Resistance members; alas all the ones I knew have died, some recently.

Yes, I agree about the refugees; it was right for Western powers to welcome them, and there seems to be little bad blood between the earlier (leftwing nationalist) Vietnamese refugees and immigrants here in Montréal and the later boat people wave. Civil War is never nice, however inspiring the Vietnamese fight against first France then the USA was and remains for many people and liberation movements the world over.

I'd use a (Marxist) holistic approach to history more to describe Gramsci's analysis of class and social hegemony, rather than a conspiratorial view of history.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

Unlike many self-proclaimed socialist states before it, Vietnam allows its workers to strike for better wages and working conditions. Capitalism is permitted, but if there is a State factory in that sector it must get the first orders, and the capitalist factories can fight over the remaining demand. If you wish to do business there, you must have Vietnamese partners and be integrated into the Vietnamese economy as best as you can in cooperation with Vietnamese authorities.

When I started looking at Vietnam in 2010, the Vietnamese Dong stood at 40,000 per Canadian dollar. Now, it is only 17,000 Dong per Dollar. In Canadian terms, they are 2.5 times as rich in only 5 years. Their productivity is advancing by leaps and bounds, and much of the textiles work they did 5 years ago is now being offshored from them. I lost big money by not betting on Vietnam.

India and Bangladesh have a minimum wage of around $70 a month which is now undercutting Vietnam. Pretty soon in terms of the course of human history, there will be nowhere for low wages to go.

swallow swallow's picture

lagatta wrote:

I'd use a (Marxist) holistic approach to history more to describe Gramsci's analysis of class and social hegemony, rather than a conspiratorial view of history.

Coudl you expand on the distinction? 

Slumberjack

Sometimes you have to assess situations using a holistic approach.  Otherwise it risks leading all sorts of leftist persuasions around by the nose into believing non-possibilities and fallicies from within the current construct of "American" political society, such as 'hope and change,' 'liberal democrats,' and rosy, progressive electoral prospects on the national electoral scene.  It has to be called by what it is quite frankly.  As for use of the term "American," they themselves have yet to come up with a satisfactory alternative to USian, or yankee, or the longer version, citizen of the United States of America.  They're known the world over as Americans, even among other non-US 'Americans.'  It's use also pluralizes the fact that people get the political leadership they deserve.

Slumberjack

swallow wrote:

lagatta wrote:
I'd use a (Marxist) holistic approach to history more to describe Gramsci's analysis of class and social hegemony, rather than a conspiratorial view of history.

Coudl you expand on the distinction?

I hesitated to ask but I wondered about that too, since social hegemony does imply a set of mutual objectives, agreed upon rules, handshakes, etc; as Gramsci makes clear.  Gramsci favoured a type promotion from within program.  We'll get enough socialists embedded into various levels of the machinery and with any luck things are bound to change.  The Marxist view as Negri and Hardt see things differs only slightly in it's approach, where the plan is to enlist vagabonds to refurbish the proletariat; after they're provided with a makeover presumably; which will re-energize the situation with newfound intensity, enabling us to give a better account of ourselves as workers, to give challenge and eventually claim power.

Unionist

swallow wrote:

This was before my time, but the image of the helicopters taking off has always been such a defining image of the retreat of US imperialism: showing it can be beaten.

The people's struggle energized the whole world. Their victory was just icing on the cake. It's too bad we have to have sterile debates about whether imperialism is a "conspiracy" or some social construct. Somehow, victory was achieved in blissful ignorance of all that stuff.

 

Ken Burch

Interesting bit of puppetry someone created here, which seems to fit this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjGoXwyEaAs

(English and French translations of the song sung in the clip)

The right to live
said the poet Ho Chi Minh,
whose words struck from Vietnam
and touched all of humanity.
No cannon will wipe out
the furrow of your rice paddy.
The right to live in peace.

Indochina is the place
beyond the wide sea,
where they ruin the flower
with genocide and napalm.
The moon is an explosion
that blows out all the clamor.
The right to live in peace.

Uncle Ho, our song
is fire of pure love,
it's a dovecote dove,
olive from an olive grove.
It is the universal song
chain that will triumph,
the right to live in peace.

Le droit de vivre
Poète Ho Chi Minh,
Qui frappe du Vietnam
A toute l'humanité.
Aucun canon n'effacera
Le sillon de ta rizière.
Le droit de vivre en paix.

L'Indochine est l'endroit
Bien au-delà de la vaste mer,
Où l'on fait sauter la fleur
A coup de génocide et de napalm.
La lune est une explosion
Que fait sauter toute la clameur
Le droit de vivre en paix.

Tío Ho, notre chanson
Est un feu de pur amour,
C'est un pigeon de pigeonnier
Un olivier d'oliveraie.
C'est le chant universel
Chaîne qui fera triompher
Le droit de vivre en paix.

 

Slumberjack

Unionist wrote:
Somehow, victory was achieved in blissful ignorance of all that stuff.

I'm sure the North Vietnamese side had far more than an inkling about Marxist theory.

lagatta

They most certainly did, at least the leadership. And popular education included that, and many other things, including hands on stuff and basic schooling.

The reason I am so much against viewing capitalism as a "conspiracy", is not only that it is simplistic and fails to take in the very real disagreements within the capitalist class - including inter-imperialist wars, eh? but that it leads to a passive, defeatist attitude. I deliberately didn't elaborate more on concepts of hegemony here because I thought this thread should be devoted to this monumental historical struggle and its victory. It also had a huge influence worldwide.

Remember the Têt offensive? (or heard of it, for those who haven't reached boomerdom). It started off early in 1968, sparking a year of worldwide protests and actions (not only those in France and the former Czechoslovakia; we read less about those in the global South - people in North America will likely be most familiar with the protests in Mexico). And sparked the consciousness and commitment to struggle of many. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_of_1968

I'm interested in what Montrealer had to say about workers' rights and social protection in contemporary Vietnam. I'll try to find out more.

Slumberjack

lagatta wrote:
The reason I am so much against viewing capitalism as a "conspiracy", is not only that it is simplistic and fails to take in the very real disagreements within the capitalist class - including inter-imperialist wars, eh? but that it leads to a passive, defeatist attitude. I deliberately didn't elaborate more on concepts of hegemony here because I thought this thread should be devoted to this monumental historical struggle and its victory. It also had a huge influence worldwide.

I don't know if recognizing the existence of collusion and the internal competition factor that is inherent with Capitalism is as simple as you make it out to be.  At least, that is what Marxism does to a large extent.  Marxism however does not exercise a monopoly when it comes to emancipatory sentiments articulated as a critique of Capitalism.  Certainly today there is less of a center to Capitalist enterprise than there ever was, which makes for the dangerous times we live in with different Capitalist blocs (east and west) carving off large and contentious chunks of the whole for themselves.  It isn't defeatist to question theories concerning a politicized working class that are put forth as having emancipatory qualities, to be exercised once they’ve taken ownership of the economic and power structures.  And passivity would have little need for questions.

Unionist

Slumberjack wrote:

I don't know if recognizing the existence of collusion and the internal competition factor that is inherent with Capitalism is as simple as you make it out to be.  At least, that is what Marxism does to a large extent.  Marxism however does not exercise a monopoly when it comes to emancipatory sentiments articulated as a critique of Capitalism.  Certainly today there is less of a center to Capitalist enterprise than there ever was, which makes for the dangerous times we live in with different Capitalist blocs (east and west) carving off large and contentious chunks of the whole for themselves.  It isn't defeatist to question theories concerning a politicized working class that are put forth as having emancipatory qualities, to be exercised once they’ve taken ownership of the economic and power structures.  And passivity would have little need for questions.

Well put - food for thought.

lagatta

Yes, I agree.