#YesAllWomen

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Doug Woodard

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I find this post very shocking and disturbing.

If you can't figure out the problem then how will you answer the question from a person who asks -- "my father was abusive to me and my mother so should I have been aborted? ... Should I be removed from the planet now? What about my kids?"

How about the suggestion to women that seems more like direction than choice?

The point of choice is it is up to the woman to decide. Period. It is not up to anyone else to provide advice on the decision-- just to provide support and access to whatever decision she makes -- and get out of the way.

It certainly is not up to anyone to suggest that people who are alive now should have been aborted. What a horrible message to send to children who have survived abusive homes and never been abusive.

Are you planning to advance data to suggest that being abusive is genetic?

Let me be clear -- I don't think your post was intended the way it comes across. I certainly think that I probably would agree with its intent. But as it is written the result is unbelievably disturbing.

"evolutionary biology" Wow, What we need is not an evolution of any kind but a social revolution with respect to violence. Not biological evolution with the flavour of  eugenics.

Sean, Daigle's partner was an extreme case as shown by his subsequent history. I reckon that most of us have some capacity for opportunistic and exploitive sexual behaviour, and that in males it is much more likely to take the form of physical threat, coercion and violence. Children of abusive parents seem more likely to abuse than others, and I expect that some of that is hereditary. I think that in most cases it's not worth worrying about for society, and I'm content to leave the decisions about reproduction to the individual, though I would much prefer that they understand the risks and feel responsible for the outcome. I'm against capital punishment for this society, and I'm happy to have a criminal justice system that can't bury its mistakes. If we were to have capital punishment for "socially alien elements" I might be in some danger myself, as I expect that Harris and Harper would consider me a dangerous radical with strong counter-revolutionary tendencies.

I think that others (including me) have the right to suggest criteria which women in general ought to consider when making the decision whether to abort. I think that society has the right to provide relevant information. I would be very dubious about government, or any individual or private body, actively influencing the individual's decision.

I am not planning to "advance data that being abusive is genetic." I believe that almost any behaviour one can name has a genetic component as well as an environmental component, and that the genetic component may or may not be decisive.

Why are you not a fish? Do you suppose that the reason is entirely environmental?

I definitely that that we should work for cultural change reducing violence against women, but I think that is a short-term affair of a few generations. I'd like us to also work on the biological substrate, though I don't expect that can ever be wholly successful.

I don't believe in revolutions. The French have barely recovered from theirs after 225 years. The Russian revolution doesn't seem to have accomplished much. The Americans made a mild revolution aimed at quicker and more efficient land theft and genocide, with the help of terrorism, arson, expropriation of property, torture and murder, and they are still lying to themselves about it. Their republic seems to be on the skids, having become a far more corrupt and authoritarian oligarchy than its founders had in mind.

If you don't understand that evolutionary biology has a determining role in human affairs, I don't think you understand much.

Forget about eugenics, the idea was as stupid and ignorant as its application.

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Doug Woodard. Whoa.

Doug W wrote:
 Children of abusive parents seem more likely to abuse than others

Evidence, please. If you're talking about the Cycle of Violence, it can in fact go the other way, and girls and boys learn different things from experiencing or witnessing abuse.

I further suggest that our violent society, and how our (war-mongering) culture specifically encourages male violence (against other men, against women, against children, against people in other countries) is a much clearer place to assign blame. That, sadly for you, puts the responsibility on all of us.

Quote:
, and I expect that some of that is hereditary.

Again, evidence please.

Quote:
I'm content to leave the decisions about reproduction to the individual, though I would much prefer that they understand the risks and feel responsible for the outcome. 
bold added by me

Um, WHAT?!?! Please correct me if I'm wrong, are you saying it's women's responsibilities to not bear the children of asshole abusers? And to simply have abortions if that happens?!?!?

Please read Sean's response again.

Quote:

I think that others (including me) have the right to suggest criteria which women in general ought to consider when making the decision whether to abort.

I think that others can go to hell. Just my opinion, you understand.

Holy fuck.

Unionist

This has become a joke thread, right?

What is about babble that makes people respond seriously to disgusting regressive baiting bullshit (Doug's theory of how to purify the human race) instead of just laughing uproariously and moving on?

Nice way to destroy an important conversation in the feminism forum of all places.

 

MegB

Doug, some of what you're posting is anti-feminist. Please note that the mandate of this forum is pro-feminist discussion from a feminist perspective. So, understandably it is inappropriate for you to post that you think you want a say in the criteria for abortion.

So, Doug, please educate yourself before you post here again. When you participate in any thread in this forum you check your male privilege at the door.

Sean in Ottawa

MegB wrote:

As a younger, more vulnerable woman, I had to deal with unwanted male sexual attention on a daily basis. Age and attitude ensure that I rarely have to put up with that crap anymore but not once do I recall any man being a visible ally and calling out the predatory behavior of another man.

My daughter - who unfortunately has to deal with the same unwanted attention whenever she leaves the house - was walking home one evening and was accosted by a group of men on their way to the local losers' lounge. The one guy was vocal, lewd, made obscene comments and the group of them started to follow her. She ignored them for the most part and they eventually left her alone and made their way to the bar.

When she got home she told us what happened. My husband and my daughter went to the losers' lounge and confronted the guy who was doing the most overt harassing and made him apologize. "Not to me asshole, to her." Said asshole was told by his buddy that he better apologize, the guy did, then slunk out of the bar. My husband and daughter then came home.

That's how you call out another man's predatory behavior.

Yes-- and that's one of the points about collective responsibility to call out - not leaving it to victims.

Far from genetic there is a general patriarchal social/cultural disposition towards violence and abuse to women. As such there is a collective responsibility to change that. A good many of the children who grew up in abusive homes have also internalized that this is what needs to change. Some of our greatest activists in fighting to create a better safer social/cultural framework have come to this from very personal and at times very negative experience.

I absolutely agree that to witness is to participate. If you are aware of this you are already involved. If you say/do nothing you endorse the behaviour. Not everyone can take on a violent person. Those who can call them out directly, should. Those who can report, should. Those who can share the experience and advocate, should. Those who can listen to the experience and provide support, should.

Men happen to have a particular responsibility due to their gender to act for change -- and of course that includes speaking out but it starts with understanding, hearing, respecting, recognizing what is around them. (Not to want to bring the Hill debate here-- but to centre the discussion about stories like this around the victims/complainants rather than partisan opportunity which I feel has been the tune from both sides and sadly even at times from both men and even women.)

The other reason men have the responsibility is that for the most part women get this instinctively, because it is a part of their individual and collective experience. Men have to work harder and emply imagination to get there. It is not as automatic for men to get this but they can if they want to. Starts with wanting to. Includes making mistakes, readjusting and trying again. I don't think I know of any man -- self-included -- who started off with all the understanding and instincts. It's learned. And none can pretend they have a complete understanding either. That is ongoing learning.

NS NS's picture

I am going to share another anecdote with you folks.

I was out last evening looking for a winter jacket as I hadnt bought one in years. On the same day I shared my experience with a man following in a store on this forum, lo and behold , a man started following me into a store.  The place was packed, so many people on a cold Friday evening.

I first saw him in the corner of my eye as he past me but I didnt realize he had followed me all the way into the store about 50 feet or so. I was browsing at some shoes when he came up next to me. He had a big grin on his face.  I was thinking, you've got to be kidding me?

This was our exchange more or less:

"Hello sister"

"Do I know you from somewhere"?

"No"

"You are a good person and you have a good heart"

"You dont know me so how would you know"

"I can see you have a good heart"

"Listen very carefully to me, you do not follow a woman in a mall or anywhere else like this"

"I..."

"You are not hearing me, you cannot follow a woman into a store"

"I..."

"Show some respect.."

At this point he got angry at me and yelled something that sounded like "I have a wife" and walked away quickly.

No one in the mall seemed to notice as far I could tell.

I tried to keep my cool and be polite as possible the whole time and I was worried about making a scene. Imagine that? Not sure I would have the courage the next time to do the same, its just easier to ignore it and walk away.

MegB

Wow NS, talk about grace under pressure. You dealt really well with that creep. Sadly, whenever I was accosted by some creep my response would be "fuck off". Not such a good idea and I'm not much better when creeps approach my daughter when I'm with her. That started happening when she was about 14 or 15. You can imagine my reaction to a grown many trying to pick up my adolescent daughter. Not pretty.

NS NS's picture

Thanks Meg for your kind words.

Aristotleded24

MegB wrote:
My daughter - who unfortunately has to deal with the same unwanted attention whenever she leaves the house - was walking home one evening and was accosted by a group of men on their way to the local losers' lounge. The one guy was vocal, lewd, made obscene comments and the group of them started to follow her. She ignored them for the most part and they eventually left her alone and made their way to the bar.

When she got home she told us what happened. My husband and my daughter went to the losers' lounge and confronted the guy who was doing the most overt harassing and made him apologize. "Not to me asshole, to her." Said asshole was told by his buddy that he better apologize, the guy did, then slunk out of the bar. My husband and daughter then came home.

That's how you call out another man's predatory behavior.

[url=http://enmasse.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11018]Reminds me of this little anecdote:[/url]

Quote:
A friend of my wife's was groped on a city bus. She grabbed the creep's wrist, held his hand as far up in the air as possible, as though it were a detached object, and bellowed "HEY! I found this on my ass, does it belong to anyone here?" Guy blanched and slunk off the bus as quickly as he could, to jeers and derision from other riders.

Basement Dweller

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Men happen to have a particular responsibility due to their gender to act for change -- and of course that includes speaking out but it starts with understanding, hearing, respecting, recognizing what is around them. (Not to want to bring the Hill debate here-- but to centre the discussion about stories like this around the victims/complainants rather than partisan opportunity which I feel has been the tune from both sides and sadly even at times from both men and even women.)

I'm sorry but, as a man, I have a hard time trusting any man who starts crusading on behalf of women by pointing his finger at other men. Just like this can be politically exploited, it could fit well into a man's personal agenda.

jas
NS NS's picture

Latest on the "American dad" Cosby and British comedian who jokes about homeless people and rape.

Social media strikes back at Cosby and pressures British TV channel to drop comic

 

jas

Unbelievable. "Tongue in cheek", they say?

South Wales 'Ride me' bus advert sparks online backlash

Notice also in the pic how the window border pictorially forms a choker or restraint on the woman's neck.

lagatta

The shirtless young man version doesn't make the ad any less creepy. They both look like extremely cut-rate escort ads, and who on earth would board a bus shirtless in Wales? Its attractions do not include a tropical climate.

jas

Yes, to equal the vulnerability factor they would have had to use a younger, more slight-of-frame male. And anyway, seeing the ad with the female out of context with the other ad in the real-life setting in which these ads are situated still produces the same effect to the unaware viewer as if the campaign solely featured women models.

Brachina

 Ita supposed to be tongue in cheek and sexy, its harmless fun and if.feel some.how damaged by seeing such.and.ad.then you have much bigger.issues then.what's on the.ad. 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Hi, mods - Would you please explain the ethos of the feminism forum to Brachina? Or, alternatively, ask him/her to take a powder?

Brachina

 Take a Powder? Care to rephrase that?

MegB

Brachina wrote:

 Ita supposed to be tongue in cheek and sexy, its harmless fun and if.feel some.how damaged by seeing such.and.ad.then you have much bigger.issues then.what's on the.ad. 

Perhaps that's how you see it but in a feminist context it's incredibly offensive and harmful. This being the femininst forum and all, with a mandate to discuss issues from a feminist POV, you'll need to express that opinion outside this particular forum. Thanks.

Brachina

 Very well, go back to your challenge free echo chamber, I won't post in echo chamber again, I just pray the other sub forums suffer the same fate.

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