Continued from here.
Issues Pages:
The federal election, started May 20, 2015
Wed, 2015-05-20 13:49
#1
The federal election, started May 20, 2015
Wed, 2015-05-20 14:40
#2
Continued from previous thread:
Debater is hardly the only one who thinks along these lines, virtually everyone here places people in neat ideological boxes. They do that probably because people here are politically involved or at least aware. Most people are not so ideological.
I agree.
That's one of the points I've been trying to make for a long time, too. Many voters today are not aligned with a particular party the way they were in the past. That's why there are so many more shifting allegiances and "floaters" in the electorate. We've seen this at the provincial level in several provinces, too.
All I was pointing out above with regard to Mulcair & C-51 is that while I think Trudeau & the Liberals have lost voters to the NDP for supporting the legislation, there will be some voters who think the NDP is too soft on security & terrorism and may buy into Harper's arguments or be open to voting Liberal before they vote NDP. Historically those voters have been more in the red tory/blue liberal camp. The reason I mentioned them is because they are the main group who blocked the Layton NDP in Ontario in 2011.
Wed, 2015-05-20 15:16
#3
Opposition to Bill C-51 is a winning issue. Since it was announced, polling has only moved in one direction. The more people hear about it the more they hate it.
If the debate becomes Harper and Trudeau trying to tag team Mulcair on Bill C-51, the NDP will form the next government.
Frankly, I'd be more concerned about Mulcair getting tag teamed by the Greens and the Bloc over regional issues, distracting him from making the argument about the bigger federal issues.
Wed, 2015-05-20 15:39
#4
I don't think Trudeau & Harper are going to be tag-teaming Mulcair on Bill C-51
I think the Liberals are going to be trying to say they support improving security but that they want to make oversight amendments to the Con legislation and that they disagree with Harper over some of its provisions. Whether that works or not, time will tell.
And yes, I think that the Greens & the BQ will be going after the NDP because that's the party that they can win seats from the easiest.
Of course, that depends on whether the Greens & the BQ are allowed in the debates. So much of that is in flux now. I assume these alternative networks and organizations will allow them to take part, but who knows.
Wed, 2015-05-20 15:46
#5
This election like most federal elections will be decided in Central Canada. I hope the voters of Ontario don't buy the Trudeau Mania.2 hype that we are about to be subjected too.
In the riding I live in the biggest threat to an NDP retake of Catherine Bell's old seat is a strong Green showing and given the number of times that May has been in the riding already it seems this riding is one of the Green's targets. I know that neither the Liberals or the Greens want strategic voting because in the last election the Cons beat the NDP 46% to 41% and the Libs and Greens were in a deadheat for third at 5.1% and 5.2%
Wed, 2015-05-20 16:04
#6
I don't think Trudeau & Harper are going to be tag-teaming Mulcair on Bill C-51I think the Liberals are going to be trying to say they support improving security but that they want to make oversight amendments to the Con legislation and that they disagree with Harper over some of its provisions. Whether that works or not, time will tell.
No matter how I envision the debate, I see this playing out as it's already played out in the polls, at a minimum. Harper makes a big statement about security, Mulcair calls bullshit and makes a big statement about civil rights and liberties. Trudeau tries to make the awkward case in the middle, while getting pounded for being anti-security and anti-liberty from both sides.
That's at a minimum. If it plays out how you described it, with Trudeau or Harper trying to accuse Mulcair of being "soft on terror", then Mulcair is going to get a chance to describe some really flawed legislation. Also, Harper and Trudeau slamming Mulcair will also make this look more like a 3-way race, which is exactly what the NDP needs it to be.
Wed, 2015-05-20 16:57
#7
The Harper Tories are getting perilously close to irritating people out of voting for them
John Ivison
May 20, 2015
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-the-harper-tories-...
Wed, 2015-05-20 17:39
#8
Direct from the mouth of a war monger. Not only is Canada losing the war, but we shouldn't even be there in the first place. Shades of Bush's Iraq war.
ISIS mission: Despite Ramadi setback, battle not lost, Jason Kenney says'Just imagine if we weren't there, how much more territory they would have claimed,' defence minister says
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/isis-mission-despite-ramadi-setback-batt...
Wed, 2015-05-20 17:42
#9
Federal Election 2015: NDP & Conservatives agree to debate on economy hosted by Google,
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-election-2015-conservatives-agre...
Wed, 2015-05-20 20:25
#10
Jeb Bush says he wants Stephen Harper re-elected
The Republican former Florida governor meandered into the unusual foreign endorsement at an event in New Hampshire.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2015/05/20/jeb-bush-says-he-wants-step...
Wed, 2015-05-20 20:36
#11
I rise to oppose the motion by my honourable colleague from Den Tandt
http://warrenkinsella.com/2015/05/i-rise-to-oppose-the-motion-by-my-hono...
Wed, 2015-05-20 20:37
#12
Wed, 2015-05-20 20:45
#13
Ever since that poll came out showing the NDP in the lead following the Alberta election we have been witnessing a right-wing freakout.
Canada's right-wingers (read: mainstream press) thought they had the script down pat with their two right-wing parties, the Liberals and the Conservatives, just the two of them fighting it out, and the victor would form the government. That script now has only one place for it: the trashbin.
What are the right-wingers going to do now?
Thu, 2015-05-21 08:30
#14
John Ivinson writes
"If an election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would probably win."
How depressing
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-the-harper-tories-...
Thu, 2015-05-21 09:43
#15
Arthur Cramer
John Ivinson writes
"If an election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would probably win."
How depressing
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-the-harper-tories-...
The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Buck up Terrytowel.
Thu, 2015-05-21 09:48
#16
The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Buck up Terrytowel.
I'm seriously consdiering TUNING out of this election, it just depresses me day after day
Stop reading newspapers, stop watching the politcal panel shows, stop coming here at babble
Just have a complete media blackout.
Because I don't think I can take four more years of Harper.
Thu, 2015-05-21 09:52
#17
Arthur Cramer
Seriously Terrytowell, buck up! Get a grip. Go work to get your candidate elected. Talkk to people. Be active. But stop this incessant sky is falling stuff. Get a grip!
Thu, 2015-05-21 10:03
#18
Seriously Terrytowell, buck up! Get a grip. Go work to get your candidate elected. Talkk to people. Be active. But stop this incessant sky is falling stuff. Get a grip!
I am actually doing that. But you can't ignore the mainstream media saying over and over again that Harper has this in the bag.
With everything that has happened since 2011, Harper and his gang should be at 15% in the polls. Not 30%
But as I said before and I'll say again. Harper is very machiavellian and shrwed. You cannot one-up Stephen Harper.
Thu, 2015-05-21 11:43
#19
John Ivinson writes
"If an election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would probably win."
How depressing
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-the-harper-tories-...
The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Buck up Terrytowel.
in fairness, Ivison adds that the election is NOT held tomorrow; it will be in 5 months, and Harper's welcome is wearing out with some undecided voter groups
btw,
10 years is a real watershed for elected Western leaders: De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan-Bush, Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien, Blair etc.
at around the decade-in-power mark, from 9-11 years, serious voter fatigue shows up
Harper could reach the 10-year mark in January, but October is close enough for a real voter smack-down, hence a minority Tory govt at most, I think, which would mean a backbench revolt and The End
Thu, 2015-05-21 13:49
#20
No point saying Harper can win a minority. If the NDP and Liberals have majority between them this is meaningless. So no TerryTowel sky not falling.
No matter what Trudeau says he will not support a Harper minority -- it would destroy his party if he did not govern with the NDP.
So stop worrying about CPC minorities. If they can't get to a majority they are toast.
Get worried if they gain 10 points in the polls and are in reach of a majority but I doubt that will happen.
Thu, 2015-05-21 17:07
#21
But what is the reason that Harper is running again? If he is staying on, presumably he thinks he has a good shot at winning, otherwise why would he do it?
Let's keep in mind that this is a party that has repeatedly broken the election laws and tried to steal close ridings.
We shouldn't assume when looking at the numbers that they are going to play fairly - or legally.
Thu, 2015-05-21 17:21
#22
Good.
That's the way it should have been dealt with in the first place.
Now they need to make sure they leave an empty position for Harper so it will be clear to every voter that Harper was invited but chickened out. Harper runs a real risk here as he will be crucified during the debate.
Major broadcasters to host federal leaders’ debates with or without Stephen Harper
http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/05/21/major-broadcasters-to-host-federal-le...
Thu, 2015-05-21 17:39
#23
Mercedes Stephenson @CTVMercedes
#CPC will not accept broadcast consortium offer for 2 debates. Consortium has reached agreement for debates w NDP, LPC, Greens & BQ
Thu, 2015-05-21 18:06
#24
Power & Politics @PnPCBC Gerry Caplan says PM Harper will look very stupid if he doesn't agree to consortium - CBC/CTV/Global - debate.
Thu, 2015-05-21 18:22
#25
alan smithee
Meanwhile in Montréal,Harper is 45 minutes away from being Crowned King of the Useful Idiots by people claiming to represent the Jewish community for his defense of Israel and 'human rights' (!!!!)
I don't know what it's going to take for Canadians to wake the fuck up if this refusal to debate doesn't knock any sense into anyone.
Thu, 2015-05-21 21:19
#26
Richard Madan @RichardMadanPossible 1st in Cdn history: TV debates without leader of governing party /@CTVMercedes#CPC will not accept broadcast consortium offer
https://twitter.com/RichardMadan/status/601492210555691009
Thu, 2015-05-21 21:25
#27
Arthur Cramer
Possible 1st in Cdn history: TV debates without leader of governing party /@CTVMercedes#CPC will not accept broadcast consortium offer
https://twitter.com/RichardMadan/status/601492210555691009
Well, that's dissapointing. I guess its cuz he can't have the other party leaders arrested and charged with treason! 
Thu, 2015-05-21 22:01
#28
Broadcasters to go ahead with traditional TV debates with or without Harper
Thursday, May. 21 2015
Stephen Harper’s Conservatives say they will be a no-show at two federal political leaders’ debates announced by major Canadian broadcasters Thursday.
CTV News, CBC News, Global News and Radio-Canada announced that they’ve reached agreement in principle with Justin Trudeau’s Liberals, Thomas Mulcair’s NDP, Elizabeth May’s Greens and the Bloc Québécois.
. . .
The Harper Conservatives have rejected debate proposals from the consortium and spokesman Kory Teneycke has said the party wouldn’t entertain any more.
On Thursday, Mr. Teneycke stood firm on the matter, saying the Tories will not be participating in the consortium debates. “Our position hasn’t changed. We agreed to do five [independently organized] debates. We’ve announced four of them. We’re still looking for the final and fifth debate in French. We have declined a consortium proposal. Our position hasn’t changed.”
----
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-agrees-to-take-part-...
Fri, 2015-05-22 10:51
#29
Alberta NDP gives Harper government a lesson in cabinet making
Premier-designate Notley and her 11 cabinet ministers will be sworn in on Sunday, May 24 at 2 p.m.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/ctv-news-channel/power-play-with-don-martin/albert...
Fri, 2015-05-22 11:07
#30
Winning Canada's 'progressive primary'
Just this weekend, NDP leader Thomas Mulcair announced at a rally in Surrey that an NDP government would repeal the bill outright. If that message resonates with anti-incumbent voters, then Liberals are going to have to work hard to get back into the ...
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/stewart-prest-winning-canadas-...
Fri, 2015-05-22 11:10
#31
NDP support skyrockets in Quebec as Liberals place a distant second – poll
Federal NDP leader Thomas Mulcair shakes hands with supporters during an NDP rally in Montreal on May 8.
Pierre Obendrauf / Montreal Gazette
http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-the-moment/the-story...
Fri, 2015-05-22 11:14
#32
Liberals need to stop lying. It seems every time they open their mouths it's another whopper! 
Major problems with C-51
http://www.kelownacapnews.com/opinion/letters/304636961.html
Fri, 2015-05-22 11:15
#33
then Liberals are going to have to work hard to get back into the ...
Justin Trudeau - IT'S OVER!
Fri, 2015-05-22 11:15
#34
Double Post
Fri, 2015-05-22 11:25
#35
The fact that the question is even being asked, well, I think it gives you a clear hint at what the answer could be, eh!
(Imagine for a second how that would have been worded if they were talking about the NDP)
Is Justin Trudeau ready for the election?
http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2015/05/22/is-justin-trudeau-ready-for-...
Fri, 2015-05-22 13:18
#36
The fact that the question is even being asked, well, I think it gives you a clear hint at what the answer could be, eh!
(Imagine for a second how that would have been worded if they were talking about the NDP)
Is Justin Trudeau ready for the election?
http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2015/05/22/is-justin-trudeau-ready-for-...
But it is the wrong question and the wrong story.
The real question is have the Conservatives spent so much time in the bubble spraypainting it from the inside that they no longer know what the outside looks like?
These debates moves Harper is making look like it is the CPC that is running scared and making huge blunders. The party that might get blown out of the water this time is the CPC.
No longer does it look like the so-called left is splitting the vote. This time it looks like they are tag-teaming a government that looks like it is teetering on the edge of a historic defeat. People are looking at the top line national numbers, ignoring the trends and negatives for Harper and not seeing the reality shaping up in the regions. Even the provinces that show the Conservatives in the lead in popular vote tell a story of retrenchment where CPC support is concentrated heavily in a relatively small number of seats.
Is Harper ready for the election?
Fri, 2015-05-22 13:57
#37
The whole debate fiasco of the Conservatives might be the moment where people say they blinked. Seems a strategy borne out of fear that they initially felt looked good on paper but will come to bite them in the rear in the near future.
Fri, 2015-05-22 14:21
#38
The whole debate fiasco of the Conservatives might be the moment where people say they blinked. Seems a strategy borne out of fear that they initially felt looked good on paper but will come to bite them in the rear in the near future.
This is what I think -- this is right up there with Campbell's anti-Chretien ad, comment that elections are not the time to discuss policy, Turner's bum patting etc.
Has every potential to be a turning point before the election even starts.
The only way to stop this from being catastrophic would be for the Conservatives to change their minds and eat a bowl of crow.
Fri, 2015-05-22 14:42
#39
montrealer58
If Harper is not debating, he is not competing. This is a complete insult to young voters who have never before had a debate they could vote on. The arrogance of Harper is at Mugabe proportions.
Fri, 2015-05-22 15:01
#40
montrealer58
The Conservatives cannot be said to be competetive because they refuse to compete. We are going to have to engage in some real alpha dogging over this because this is what Harper deserves. Still, on a progressive board we have to be careful what we say in that department.
Coward however seems to be politically correct enough. Insipid. Weak. Pathetic.
Fri, 2015-05-22 15:48
#41
Yes-- often parties did not want to debate. But not debating is worse than the disease.
The Conservatives are being too smart for themselves. Clearly theya re not learning fast enough from what happened in Alberta.
To walk this one back will cost them but not nearly as much as letting it play out.
If there is even one national debate with Harper not there that will be the enduring image of him for the election.
Like I said it is like the Conservatives are in a bubble and are painting it from the inside.
People writing off Trudeau-- they should not.
What Trudeau needs to do is survive, double his seat count and get more seats than Harper and make it into official opposition. Trudeau can then guide his federal party into something that looks like the BC Liberals -- the party on the right that competes with the NDP. The Conservatives can be limited to a bunch of right wing yahoos screaming about abortions, gay marriage and loyalty to the Queen (the one in England). The Liberals might defeat these yahoos in a couple elections and we have a right-left federal dynamic. The Greens will likely pick up a few more seats and may have balance of power sometimes.
Fri, 2015-05-22 15:51
#42
John Ivinson writes
"If an election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would probably win."
How depressing
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-the-harper-tories-...
what a difference a days makes; no one would say that on May 22nd ...
Fri, 2015-05-22 16:12
#43
John Ivinson writes
"If an election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would probably win."
How depressing
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/john-ivison-the-harper-tories-...
what a difference a days makes; no one would say that on May 22nd ...
Paywall: I can't read the article without paying them money and I sure am not going to start paying them.
Fri, 2015-05-22 16:37
#44
Paywall: I can't read the article without paying them money and I sure am not going to start paying them.
If you're using the chrome browser:
Right-click the link;
Select "Open in new incognito window";
Switch window to the new one that was opened; and
Enjoy!
Fri, 2015-05-22 18:51
#45
The whole debate fiasco of the Conservatives might be the moment where people say they blinked. Seems a strategy borne out of fear that they initially felt looked good on paper but will come to bite them in the rear in the near future.
Yeah, it's possible that Harper may be pulling a Jim Prentice.
On paper, the strategy appears very clever & Machiavellian - avoid major debates on the National major networks where Harper could be raked over the coals before a major audience and instead pick particular networks & venues that are more favourable to the Conservatives.
However, the bottom line is that it has never happened before in Canadian history that a PM announces that he will not be showing up at the major National network debates. Why? It risks coming across as too clever by far, and somewhat arrogant.
And as you say, it makes Harper & the Conservatives look scared. They may think they are making things more difficult for Trudeau or the other opposition parties, but the question remains, if a Prime Minister is confident about his record and his ability to appeal to voters, why is he afraid to appear on National television?
Fri, 2015-05-22 18:54
#46
Paywall: I can't read the article without paying them money and I sure am not going to start paying them.
If you're using the chrome browser:
Right-click the link;
Select "Open in new incognito window";
Switch window to the new one that was opened; and
Enjoy!
Thanks -- similar option worked in firefox
Fri, 2015-05-22 19:29
#47
Yes-- often parties did not want to debate. But not debating is worse than the disease.
The Conservatives are being too smart for themselves. Clearly theya re not learning fast enough from what happened in Alberta.
To walk this one back will cost them but not nearly as much as letting it play out.
If there is even one national debate with Harper not there that will be the enduring image of him for the election.
Like I said it is like the Conservatives are in a bubble and are painting it from the inside.
People writing off Trudeau-- they should not.
What Trudeau needs to do is survive, double his seat count and get more seats than Harper and make it into official opposition. Trudeau can then guide his federal party into something that looks like the BC Liberals -- the party on the right that competes with the NDP. The Conservatives can be limited to a bunch of right wing yahoos screaming about abortions, gay marriage and loyalty to the Queen (the one in England). The Liberals might defeat these yahoos in a couple elections and we have a right-left federal dynamic. The Greens will likely pick up a few more seats and may have balance of power sometimes.
I really do see that as a strong possibility for the future and I hope that it is what is coming. Extreme conservativism is dying a well-deserved death.
Evironmentalism is on the ascendant and if you believe in climate change that will continue as we face more and more upheaval. It and other trends will bring back the popularity of considering collective well-being and a back-lash against individualism as the moral guiding principle of society. The danger is that climate/resource wars will support the military industrial political complex. There is no doubt in my mind that the North American Security Perimeter is about defending the continent from refugees as much as it is from terrorists.
Information revolutions have always supported rebellion and democratic reform. We have barely begun to experience the impact of digital communication and the power to publish it has given the individual. The surveillence state has always been a boogie man, and it is scary and intimidating, but Goliath can be slayed by countless Davids from those exposing NSA secrets to those taping police violence.
I think we are going through a major period of transition that holds a great deal of potential for progressives.
Fri, 2015-05-22 22:15
#48
Harper rejects participating in national English TV debate
Friday, May. 22 2015
Prime Minister Stephen Harper reiterated Friday he will not take part in a national English debate that would be broadcast by the major TV networks.
During a visit Friday to Grosse-Ile, Que., Harper was asked at least twice why he would not participate in the multi-platformed debate being set up by the consortium.
The networks have announced a partnership with Google, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Vine and YouTube.
“The position of the party has been clear on this question for some time,” Harper responded. “The Conservative party is ready to participate in a maximum of five debates in total, which is a record for federal campaigns in our country.”
---
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/harper-rejects-participatin...
Fri, 2015-05-22 22:41
#49
Conservative-dominated Senate committee changed Mike Duffy report 7 times
May 22, 2015
OTTAWA – A Conservative-dominated Senate committee changed a report into Senator Mike Duffy’s expense claims at least seven times, documents obtained by Global News reveal.
The confidential drafts reveal for the first time the extent of the changes on the May 9, 2013 Senate report into the expenses of the now-suspended former Conservative senator.
. . .
The RCMP has suggested in court transcripts that Tkachuk and Olsen altered the reports with the help of the Prime Minister’s Office after Duffy repaid $90,000, later revealed to have been with former chief of staff Nigel Wright’s money.
The drafts reveal how significant criticisms about Duffy’s expense claims were removed, including details about Duffy’s travel patterns from Ottawa to Prince Edward Island and back, demonstrating that “Ottawa was his primary or default location.”
-----
http://globalnews.ca/news/2012833/conservative-dominated-senate-committe...
Fri, 2015-05-22 23:14
#50
Anne McLellan is a Liberal and one of biggest liars on the planet.
Think anyone’s going to repeal C-51? Don’t hold your breath.
Does anyone seriously believe that the flitty, Peter Pan-like leader of the Liberals has the intellectual heft and spine he’d need to resist the ferocious pressure to leave C-51 alone — pressure he undoubtedly would face from the RCMP, CSIS and all the other deeply-entrenched bureaucratic interests that make up Canada’s vast security intelligence infrastructure?
Recall that this is the same guy who either came up with — or was simply a willing mouthpiece for — the Liberal party’s incoherent position on C-51, which can be summed up like this: Hey, we don’t like the bill, but all of us support the bill because it will protect Canadians from terrorists, but we promise to take out the bits of the bill we don’t like if and when we become a government. OK? Next question.
Remember as well that the last time the Liberals were in charge, they introduced equally draconian security laws that granted police and spooks unprecedented powers which also constituted an assault to the Charter of Rights.
Here’s a televised snippet of then-Liberal Justice minister Anne McLellan giving testimony before a parliamentary committee in defence of Bill C36 — which, tellingly, was also part of an omnibus bill — that allowed for secret trials, “preventative” arrests and new, and expansive security and surveillance powers in days following the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks in the United States. You tell me if McLellan’s rhetorical hyperventilation in late 2001 differs in any way from the stuff that has been coming out Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney’s mouth these days in defence of C-51.
I laughed out loud when McLellan told the CBC’s Rosemary Barton in a recent interview that she supported parliamentary “oversight” of Ottawa’s “entire security apparatus.”
http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/05/22/think-anyones-going-to-repeal-c-51-do...
Fri, 2015-05-22 23:23
#51
You are doing one hell of a job Peter!
$20M-fund to help sex workers is ‘over-subscribed,’ Peter MacKay says
There are more groups than money available for the government’s proposed $20-million plan to get sex workers out of the industry, Justice Minister Peter MacKay said Friday
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/05/22/20m-fund-to-help-sex-worke...