We demand that Rabble.ca end your association with Meghan Murphy as blogger

Mr Magoo wrote:

In another thread on the same topic, it's been suggested that any man who's in favour of decriminalization rather than abolition is secretly just trying to make sure that he or his "dude bros" have easy access to sex workers.

That was me, and you are misquoting me slightly. I said that progressive men in favour of decrim are "unthinkingly" protecting their dude bros' access to women's bodies. There's a difference between male privilege, and a conspiracy, and I think generally people are too disorganized, gossipy and incompetent to keep any conspiracies hidden for long.

The thing about heterosexual and "sacred" relationships was somehere upstream, but I'm damned sure not wasting a second to track it down.

takeitslowly wrote:

as a trans woman i think i should just stick with the LGBTQ fourm , which is very popular..lol.

I would have responded with, 'introduce whatever you like' for discussion, but it's quite understandable if you didn't.

Sineed wrote:

I don't see how stigmatization and criminalization ties into the most drastic harm of sex work: putting women in the way of psychopathic men who prey on women. I'm not convinced that legalization will protect women from the Robert William Pictons of this world, men whose motivations are difficult for most of us (men and women both) to comprehend.

Did you read the Himel decision? Psychopaths DO NOT operate in brothels. The evidence is overwhelming. Brothels are by far the safest work places for sex workers. And that's why the new law does not make brothels illegal. The problem with abolitionnists like extremist organizations and sects like la CLES in Montreal is that they are calling law enforcement to raid brothels and massage parlours systematically to get rid of prostitution. Even the most consevative police forces will not do that because they know the consequences.

Caissa wrote:

Shut the expletive deleted thread down for Marx sake.

 No absolutely not, this conversation is too important to run away from just because some heat is being generated.

 And I changed my mind about Murphy being fired, I didn't realize she'd called for Chris Brown's murder, death threats crosses the line beyond free speech. She needs to go. A woman got kicked out of the Aberta NDP cacus for less then hateful thing Murphy has said or the death threat.

Gustave wrote:

Sineed wrote:

I don't see how stigmatization and criminalization ties into the most drastic harm of sex work: putting women in the way of psychopathic men who prey on women. I'm not convinced that legalization will protect women from the Robert William Pictons of this world, men whose motivations are difficult for most of us (men and women both) to comprehend.

Did you read the Himel decision? Psychopaths DO NOT operate in brothels. The evidence is overwhelming. Brothels are by far the safest work places for sex workers. And that's why the new law does not make brothels illegal. The problem with abolitionnists like extremist organizations and sects like la CLES in Montreal is that they are calling law enforcement to raid brothels and massage parlours systematically to get rid of prostitution. Even the most consevative police forces will not do that because they know the consequences.

 You're not under the mistaken impression that these groups give two shits about these women? No they're in it for the big rescue industy dollars, they lose out big time when fear of prostitution goes down, but a nice crack down with media attention funnels all kinds of money to them. Its corruption 101. And the non professional abolutionists support it because it makes them uncomfortable and maybe sometimes inconvienced, and how dare sex workers put making a living and surviving before the abolionists interests. 

 I think Rabble is at a crossroads, it can support sex workers or it can support abolionists, it can't support both, it can support trans rights or it can support transphobia, ect... I back the letter 100%.

 A day late and a dollar.short, story of.my life, still don't mean I can't.give my 2 cents. I still stand by my statement.

Brachina wrote:

 A day late and a dollar.short, story of.my life, still don't mean I can't.give my 2 cents. I still stand by my statement.

Obviously, and no one is saying you can't But if you are insisting on grand policy standsyou can make those on your own site. I think we just settled the issue of free discussion.

Quote:

That was me, and you are misquoting me slightly. I said that progressive men in favour of decrim are "unthinkingly" protecting their dude bros' access to women's bodies. There's a difference between male privilege, and a conspiracy, and I think generally people are too disorganized, gossipy and incompetent to keep any conspiracies hidden for long.

Alright.

I also support the right of adults to legally purchase and consume alcohol.

And I suppose if someone were motivated enough, they could point out that I'm either knowingly or unknowingly (read: callously or witlessly) standing shoulder to shoulder with Molsons and Labatts and Seagrams.  And that I'm so invested in "freedom" and "choice" that I'm turning a blind eye to alcoholism, DUI fatalities, and poverty.  And hey, maybe I only hold this opinion because I'm hoping to go out this weekend and get blotto at Mickey Fynns -- how shallow and empty is that compared to the pain of a child losing a parent to liver disease?  How can I not see how wrong I am?

pretty funny, read not so much, how the men will and are going to great lengths to trivialize and silence those against prostitution. right to the point of pretending they know what's going on in our minds as shown by their horrendous comments stating "we don't care".

fu i'm FN heritage and i've seen first hand what prostitution does to FN women, their families and our cultures.

...... men thinking they have a right to put down women who are against their exploitation of us. yep yep yep your all so progressive and knowing.

mark_alfred wrote:

I had earlier argued for Rabble to make up its mind given the mutual incompatibility of the two positions (see post #s 49 & 74).

I'm glad you're rethinking your earlier insistence that Rabble "make up its mind". I just wanted to mention that there are far more than "two positions" involved, and the very act of portraying the matter this way makes discussion and solutions difficult.

For example: I know women who consider sex work as a pure byproduct of patriarchy, colonialism, and class society, which must be opposed and eventually overcome as part of the struggle for the equality of women - but who also oppose criminalization either of the sale or the purchase of sex, because they believe it endangers sex workers, and because they don't believe that criminal law in the hands of the Stephen Harpers (or anyone else) and their police and courts is the vehicle to freedom and equality for women. Exception, of course, for coercion, trafficking, etc.

Where does that fit in your dichotomy?

When obviously sincere and committed activists on "both sides" (as you portray it) spend so much time and passion hurling invective at each other, each accusing the other of (in essence) not really caring about women... then maybe there's something wrong with how the dialogue is being framed. I just can't see any villains in this piece - so why do some see each other as villains?

mark_alfred wrote:

It is true that no such equal petition has been circulated from abolitioners against Rabble bloggers like Joyce Arthur, who occasionally writes articles in favour of sex-workers' rights here at Rabble (though the most recent I've seen was published Nov 2014, whereas Murphy is a paid staff who is published by Rabble far more regularly).

Joyce Arthur is a paid columnist at rabble.ca. Meghan Murphy is not paid to write. She is paid for four hours a week to proofread blog posts. I continue to be astonished at how much people equate her writing with rabble's editorial policy. Meghan Murphy is also the only person to write in favour of the Nordic model on rabble.ca -- compare that with countless others who favour decriminalization.

Also, many of us at rabble have "made up our minds" over where we stand on the sex work question -- with allowances that we may not be 100% right. That doesn't mean that rabble.ca as a reader-funded organization with countless contributors, volunteers, board memebers, staff and readers needs to declaratively state what the best policy is to protect sex workers. We prefer to let people on the ground and those with experience and research in the areas tell the story for us.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

I think Rabble is at a crossroads, it can support sex workers or it can support abolionists, it can't support both

Why is it necessary for rabble to bless either position?

I had earlier argued for Rabble to make up its mind given the mutual incompatibility of the two positions (see post #s 49 & 74).  I argued that the current indecisiveness of Rabble would simply lead to fruitless discussion.  I stated, "The premise each side is relying on is diametrically opposed.  Thus, the discussions are unproductive and unpleasant.  As Rabble has done for other issues, I feel Rabble needs to set up a framework for this issue."

Antonia Zerbisias argued that discussion is important, and the ideas should be debated.  Zerbisias was a feminist blogger for the Toronto Star, and co-created the Twitter hashtag #beenrapedneverreported (link), and favours a New Zealand-like decrim approach.

I still would prefer Rabble to make up its mind, but I also feel that open discussion of ideas is good.  So, I'm a tad less convinced than I was before.

It is true that no such equal petition has been circulated from abolitioners against Rabble bloggers like Joyce Arthur, who occasionally writes articles in favour of sex-workers' rights here at Rabble (IE, Nov 2014)*.

As is often the case for disempowered groups, I suspect the question of sex workers' rights here in Canada will need to be resolved after many more years of court battles, rather than through any united activist approach to the question.

*edited based upon information Catchfire shared below in post 476.

Closing for length. Feel free to browse the other threads on this topic.