We have to remove poverty and we have to remove the guns
Both the Governor and the Mayor need to resign
The confederate flag is a hate flag and must never be allowed to be flown again
A life sentence with zero chance of parole is probably a fate worse than being executed.
What per cent of people who are given life sentences commit suicide?
NAACP
This is an act of racial terrorism and does represent who we are as a society
A life sentence with zero chance of parole is probably a fate worse than being executed
Well, if that's what you think, and you argue for life imprisonment instead of the death penalty, then you're actually arguing for a MORE punitive approach. You're the real law-and-order man!
smith
Thanks for that link
Obama made it clear that the cynical actions of so many politicians—their refusal to cross the N.R.A. and enact strict gun laws, their unwillingness to combat racism in any way that puts votes at risk—have bloody consequences.“We don’t have all the facts,” he said, “but we do know that, once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun. … At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn’t happen in other places with this kind of frequency.” On race and politics, he was more subtle, but not stinting, either, lamenting the event’s connection to “a dark part of our history,” to events like the Birmingham church bombing, in 1963.
Like many others, I’ve often tried to imagine how Obama’s mind works in these moments. After one interview in the Oval Office, he admitted to me that he was hesitant to answer some of my questions about race more fully or with less caution, for just as a stray word from him about, say, monetary policy could affect the financial markets, so, too, could a harsh or intemperate word about race affect the political temper of the country.
Obama is a flawed President, but his sense of historical perspective is well developed. He gives every sign of believing that his most important role in the American history of race was his election in November, 2008, and, nearly as important, his reëlection, four years later. For millions of Americans, that election was an inspiration. But, for some untold number of others, it remains a source of tremendous resentment, a kind of threat that is capable, in some, of arousing the basest prejudices.
Obama hates to talk about this. He allows himself so little latitude. Maybe that will change when he is an ex-President focussed on his memoirs. As a very young man he wrote a book about becoming, about identity, about finding community in a black church, about finding a sense of home—in his case, on the South Side of Chicago, with a young lawyer named Michelle Robinson. It will be beyond interesting to see what he’s willing to tell us—tell us with real freedom—about being the focus of so much hope, but also the subject of so much ambient and organized racial anger: the birther movement, the death threats, the voter-suppression attempts, the articles, books, and films that portray him as everything from an unreconstructed, drug-addled campus radical
to a Kenyan post-colonial socialist. This has been the Age of Obama, but we have learned over and over that this has hardly meant the end of racism in America. Not remotely. Dylann Roof, tragically, seems to be yet another terrible reminder of that.
Nearly all of South Carolina was in mourning Thursday. Flags were at half-mast. Except the Confederate flag, of course, which flew high outside the building where Tillman still stands and the laws of the state are written.
Gun control in the USA? It seems to be missing from the discussions.
Confederate flag, your time is up
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/opinions/cevallos-confederate-flag/index.html
And, like you, I am also an opponent of the death penalty. But if it's an existing and active punishment in a given jurisdiction, I'm not really gonna complain much about it being applied to someone as allegedly deserving as Dylann Storm Roof.
You seem to have missed my principal point - which is that the political and social system maintained by people like Governor Haley (and Barack Obama and the rest) is responsible for all the crimes against people in the U.S. and in so many countries around the world.
And that when some 21-year-old loner, commits a freelance lynching, then the Chief Executioner of South Carolina publicly calls for him to be put to death. Without waiting to hear the outcome of the niceties of a trial, or a medical assessment, or a look in the mirror.
And you're "not really gonna complain much" about this person, whom you know nothing about beyond a couple days' worth of media reports, being put to death.
I find your passion on this point a bit disappointing.
Besides, if we start banging the death penalty drums, it bears reminding that it isn't whites who are most likely to receive that sentence, nor most likely to be unfairly convicted.
What do people think about the judge's comments about needing to care about Roof's family as well?
A white judge expressing concern about the perpetrator's white family, in relation to a white accused of killing 9 black people
That appears to be quite an unusual statement.
Maybe he'll get house arrest and a bit of community service sentence from this judge .
Can't the Federales take over what is cause for concern in this SC courtroom?
And Mr Roof, if someone provides the money, is eleigible for bail? WTF!!!
And, like you, I am also an opponent of the death penalty. But if it's an existing and active punishment in a given jurisdiction, I'm not really gonna complain much about it being applied to someone as allegedly deserving as Dylann Storm Roof.
You seem to have missed my principal point - which is that the political and social system maintained by people like Governor Haley (and Barack Obama and the rest) is responsible for all the crimes against people in the U.S. and in so many countries around the world.
And that when some 21-year-old loner, commits a freelance lynching, then the Chief Executioner of South Carolina publicly calls for him to be put to death. Without waiting to hear the outcome of the niceties of a trial, or a medical assessment, or a look in the mirror.
And you're "not really gonna complain much" about this person, whom you know nothing about beyond a couple days' worth of media reports, being put to death.
I find your passion on this point a bit disappointing.
Well, let's say that this had happened in a non-death penalty state, and the governor had said "I want him to get the most severe punishment allowed by the law". Would you also be denouncing that sentiment, on the grounds of hypocrisy, because the governor isn't doing anything about all the other crimes that the are being commited by the state? Or is it specifically the death-penalty that invokes the charge of hypocisy here?
And I take your point about Haley's comments being made before the benefit of a trial(shades of "Manson Guilty Nixon Declares"), but that wasn't one of your objections in your original post.
As for my not knowing anything about Dylann Storm Roof, well, you'll note that my post included the usual qualifier "allegedly". What I meant is, if it turns out that he did indeed murder a bunch of black people simply because he hated blacks, I'm not going to make any more issue of his execution than I would about the death penalty in general, regardless of whatever hypocrisy is involved in the US government putting him to death.
Because at the end of the day, almost all governments, by their nature as collective entities, have probably harmed more innocent people than any one of their citizens has. So, by the argument from hypocrisy, no individual criminal(hello Paul Bernardo!) should ever be punished by a government.
Amazin' strength from the victim's families who have no room for hate.
And Mr Roof, if someone provides the money, is eleigible for bail? WTF!!!
No, he's being held without bail.
What does bond was set at $1,000,000 mean?
What does bond was set at $1,000,000 mean?
The judge set Roof’s bond at $1 million on weapons charges. Bond is not set on murder charges.
White Terrorism? US Avoids Race Debate in Latest Shooting Massacre
http://rt.com/op-edge/268243-charleston-attack-us-racism/
"Is America colorblind only when covering crimes involving whites?"
Well, let's say that this had happened in a non-death penalty state, and the governor had said "I want him to get the most severe punishment allowed by the law". Would you also be denouncing that sentiment, on the grounds of hypocrisy, because the governor isn't doing anything about all the other crimes that the are being commited by the state? Or is it specifically the death-penalty that invokes the charge of hypocisy here?
No, my main point had absolutely nothing to do with the death penalty. I've repeated it twice, I don't think I need to do so again. I hold that ugly society responsible for such crimes, which are carried out every day in the U.S., often by police and courts, in different ways.
Because at the end of the day, almost all governments, by their nature as collective entities, have probably harmed more innocent people than any one of their citizens has. So, by the argument from hypocrisy, no individual criminal(hello Paul Bernardo!) should ever be punished by a government.
I don't think you understood a word of what I said. You really heard me say the perpetrator here shouldn't be punished, because the government's crimes are greater? Then you are definitely hearing things. I said the government here, and the society over which it presides, is bloodthirsty and racist and criminal and has orgasms over guns. No quantum of punishment or indignation meted out to the murderer in this case will even begin to address the fundamental problem which gives rise to such crimes.
For you to focus on the individual (to the point of approving the death penalty) is not only disturbing - most importantly, it really misses the point of how to commemorate the victims and work to stop such savagery in the future.
UNIONIST WROTE: I don't think you understood a word of what I said. You really heard me say the perpetrator here shouldn't be punished, because the government's crimes are greater? Then you are definitely hearing things. I said the government here, and the society over which it presides, is bloodthirsty and racist and criminal and has orgasms over guns. No quantum of punishment or indignation meted out to the murderer in this case will even begin to address the fundamental problem which gives rise to such crimes.UNQUOTE
Okay, so you're not objecting to the death penalty, and you're not saying that the alleged criminal should go untried and/or unpunished. Your point is simply that putting the guy on trial won't address the systemic problems in the USA?
Well, I would agree with that, but I'm kind of wondering who exactly you are directing that argument at. I don't think I've seen anyone on here saying "Hey, arresting this guy just proves that the USA is solving all its social problems by leaps and bounds." I don't even think the governor of SC, your immediate target in the post, said that; all she was quoted as saying was that the guy should get the death penalty.
Usually when someone says "A is taking action against B, but A is far worse than B", the implication is pretty strong that A should not be taking action against B, or at the very least we shouldn't support A's position. So, I suppose I read your comments with that background. But I guess you were just commenting on the general irony of the situation?
Obama - confederate flag belongs in museum, domestic terrorism charges being considered
This is about inequality, race relations, and guns and it is beyond sick, and it needs to end.
From now on, instead of calling it "the Confederate flag" or "the rebel flag", just call it by a new name: the Dixie Swastika
Right-wing Twitter rages: How dare Obama blame Charleston massacre on guns when it’s clearly his faultGiven that this is the 14th time he's made this speech, it's a wonder they even have any guns left for him to take
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/18/right_wing_twitter_rages_how_dare_obama_...
The GOP’s staggering Charleston cowardice: Why are so many Republicans so scared of admitting the truth?When it comes to the Republican Party, terrorism in South Carolina will never, ever be described as such
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/19/the_gops_staggering_charleston_cowardice...
“Blacks in America have lived with terrorism for centuries”: Monstrous history at the heart of the Charleston massacreMany have noted how the church where 9 people were killed this week is full of history — a history that runs deep
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/19/blacks_in_america_have_lived_with_terror...
What do Americans expect when you have a major news network preaching inequality, hatred, racism and violence 24/7?
Fox News needs to be shut down. Apparently Murdoch's sons who are taking over from him, dislike Fox News, so there is hope I think.
And there needs to be limits on online hatred as well.
Gun Control Voices in Congress All but Silent After Charleston Shooting
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/us/gun-control-voices-in-congress-all-...
The white, Charleston, South Carolina's judge, who conducted white Mr Roof's arraignment today, made comments in the courtroom that were despicable about concern for Mr Roof's family.
Family members and roommate called FBI as soon as they realized what Mr Rood did, and perhaps prevented further damage.
Big, big difference between who could have a gun and who should have a gun.
THey have to somehow get the responsible gun owners on board and bring in gun control just like Australia did to reduce the gun carnage in America.
Jon Stewart runs out of jokes after Charleston shooting
Daily Show host apologized Thursday for not having any jokes in the aftermath of the racially-motivated killings of nine black congregants at South Carolina church.
http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/2015/06/19/jon-stewarts-serious-com...
NRA blames Charleston victims as the mass shooting reaction echoes Newtown
An NRA board member suggested worshippers ‘might be alive’ if they had guns themselves, while Obama and gun control groups repeat calls for reform
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/nra-mass-shootings-south-...
Charleston shooting: Is South Carolina the most racially riven state in the land?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/charleston-shooting-is-...
So this is Ronald Reagan's legacy - the NRA
N.R.A. Board Member Deletes Criticism of Victim in Church Massacre
I'm just posting so that no one can accuse NR of posting 10 times in a row. It makes it more of a conversation this way.
[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/south-carolina-governor-calls-... confront Dylann Roof at hearing with forgiveness[/url]
The relatives’ remarkable comments seemed in keeping with a spirit evident on the streets of Charleston Friday, where people built a memorial and planned a vigil to repudiate whatever a gunman would hope to accomplish by attacking the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, one of the country’s most important African-American sanctuaries.“A hateful person came to this community with some crazy idea he’d be able to divide, but all he did was unite us and make us love each other even more,” Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. said as he described plans for the evening vigil at a sports arena.
South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley said the state will “absolutely” want the death penalty.
While the same courtesy should be given the families of killers of racialized or religiously-ethnically stereotyped groups, I'm not really opposed to a show of empathy with the suspect's family.
I remember how much the Polytechnique killings deeply affected the killer's family. His sister died of a drug overdose, and his mother was distraught for years: http://www.moniquelepine.com/
Well I certainly was impressed that the accused's family members and his roommate calling the police/FBI when they saw his description.
Perhaps it was the symbolism of more black victims, white accused, white judge, confederate flag still flying at full mast, South Carolina's racial reputation, etc.
While the same courtesy should be given the families of killers of racialized or religiously-ethnically stereotyped groups, I'm not really opposed to a show of empathy with the suspect's family.
I remember how much the Polytechnique killings deeply affected the killer's family. His sister died of a drug overdose, and his mother was distraught for years: http://www.moniquelepine.com/
That is generous of heart but I would not have the same empathy. It seems that this racist terrorist was taught to hate at home. If you teach your child to be a racist you share the guilt for any hate crimes they committ. If your racist views are also amplified by the governement and the white elite then you have a societal problem. American society is the source it is not just domestically but also their murderous imperialist actions abroad.
I think that it is American society that is evil. I saw a site the other day where they jokingly asked people in the states if they would support a first strike nuclear attack on Russia and many of them not only did not get the dark humour but instead agreed whole heartedly with nuking the people of Russsia. RT did the same thing in Russia and the people were flabbergasted and appalled at the idea of nuking anyone.
I was wondering if a boycott against these racist states would be productive.
I know of religious organizations that have changed their venue for a conference because they would not recognize Martin Luther King Day in their state. One church I know took a hit financially to get out of their contact but it was worth it to them, as it was a matter of principle.
Or would it just makes things worse than it already is for the poor people in the state?
And there are a lot of poor, uneducated people in those states, both Black and White. But there has to be some kind of action shunning such systemic racism.
No 1 that in your face racist confederate flag has to go. Somehow we have to shame them into ridding themselves of that monstrosity.
If someone in the affected community called for such a boycott, sure. Though a boycott of what, with what goal, and terms for ending it?
Until that time there are things that can be done from the outside without putting the screws to them. Dealing with the issues of racism, intolerance and gun volence that go beyond the borders fo those states is a good place to start.
After all, squeezing them just to make them hurt, and other reactive responses , because we think they are bad people doesn't do anything but perpetuate the cycle of hate and blame that we blame them for.
We might want to take our cue from the more compassionate response of those parishioners who were on the receiving end of that violence, rather than doing the exact opposite supposedly in their name..
Hatred is not where I am coming from.
But that flag represents oppression and worse for the black community. There is nothing more to say about that issue except how quickly can we get rid of it. Now it's time for action.
Maybe a tourism and convention boycott for all the states that fly that flag - whatever it takes but it has to go. Obama want to address it but he needs backing to force the issue.
http://archive.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/20120112marti...
Racist online manifesto mentions Charleston, includes images of Roof
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/20/us/charleston-church-shooting-main/index.html
In Charleston's wake, Clinton speaks forcefully on guns, race
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/20/politics/hillary-clinton-race-guns/index.html
Hatred is not where I am coming from.
But that flag represents oppression and worse for the black community.
I was talking about an outside boycott, NR. I'd be quite happy to see someone knock that flagpole over with a truck and torch that rag.
Prediction : An open carry protest will ensue and to make the point clear,it'll probably happen in Charleston.
Everytime there's a mass murder by a gunman,talks of gun control break out and all of a sudden the gun nuts come slithering out of their holes worried about their 'rights'
Believe it. If the massacre of children didn't phase them,this definately won't.
As for flags,the US should retire both symbols. They each promote war and slavery.
THank goodness Mr Roof was apprehended before he could kill some more.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/20/friend-dylann-roof-says-suspect-pla...
Now Bellis Fair Mall - this is starting to get close to home for some of us. I and many of my friends & co-workers shop there on occasion.
Shooting at Bellis Fair Mall in Bellingham, Wash.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/shooting-at-bellis-fair-m...
delete
Prediction : An open carry protest will ensue and to make the point clear,it'll probably happen in Charleston.
Everytime there's a mass murder by a gunman,talks of gun control break out and all of a sudden the gun nuts come slithering out of their holes worried about their 'rights'
Believe it. If the massacre of children didn't phase them,this definately won't.
As for flags,the US should retire both symbols. They each promote war and slavery.
Well, from what I've seen, most African-Americans, or at least the ones who are vocal about the issue, hold the Confederate Flag in special contempt not usually held for the US flag. Probably because the Confederacy was founded with the explicitly stated purpose of protecting slavery, whereas the United States as a whole, whatever its other faults, was not. Slavery had existed in the thirteen colonies prior to independence, and continued to exist in the British Empire until 1834.
As for war, well, if we're gonna change every flag under which slaughter has taken place, that's gonna be a lot of places having to change their flag. Starting with every Canadian provincial banner containing some variation on the Union Jack. (I'll give the Maple Leaf a pass largely for sentimental reasons, and that most of our atrocities probably happened before it was adopted.)
Everytime something like this happens the usual suspects say the usual things.
It's time to ban guns so things like this stop happening.
Banning guns won't stop criminals from getting or using guns.
Why do you even need a gun?
If at least one of the vitcims was carrying a handgun the shooting could have been averted.
I'd suggest we don't really listen to stats on the internet anymore when they don't support our own beliefs. Would anyone listen to me if I cited a stat indicating the crime rate in Chicago significally dropped as soon as the introduced permits allowing people to carry guns? Or cite a stat showing how crime rates in the US, since the 1800s, would rise any time gun control was put into place?
No of course not. And truth be told I probably wouldn't listen to stats which I think are bogus, made up or out of context either.
When things like this happen though, regardless if someone is pro or anti gun (as if it was that simple) I think we are too quick to get tunnel vision about the method. Maybe it's an easier issue to try and deal with than other, tougher questions. This kid committed murder using a gun and as usual, the gun control issue springs to the for front. What about a situation like the one below that just happened in Austria?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/at-least-two-killed-in-au...
A deranged man used his car, something obviously quite common, to commit murder. He targeted and plowed into crowds of people killing 3 of them and injuring some 34+ more. After he crashed his car he got out, took out a knife (another common thing) and started stabbing people.
No firearms involved. I find immediately looking at the method used and debating it detractes from other just as important, if not more, discissions like why did it happen and how it could have been prevented. Suppose the roof kid didn't get a gun, would that have stopped him? Would he have just used a car, or knife instead?
In many of these attacks we are still seeing all sorts of warning signs and red flags which people always seem to ignore until it's too late. We need to foster an environment where people ask questions and get involved before something happens instead of saying "oh I'm not surprised, because".
