Racist hate crime: Church shooting in Charleston, South Carolina.

NorthReport wrote:

Sure but as Obama said America is the only society that has these kind of mass killings on a regular basis - it has happened now about 15 times since he took ofiice.

It's one thing to challenge statistics but it can be overdone just as global warming is being denied by unscientic arguments.

Australia brought in gun control and have drastically reduced gun killings. Why fight success?

We no longer live in a society where guns are required. Yes of course there will be exceptions and that is why London police used to keep weapons at the police stations but the police were not walking around carrying guns.

And so there is nothing anyone can say now that will convince me guns are required and the sooner we get rid of them the healthier and safer society we will all be.

So to summarise:

1 - Gun control is not complicated

2 - Science has shown gun control is effective in reducing gun violence

3 - 21st century society no longer requires guns

4 - Gun control is long overdue

5 - We need effective and courageous polical leaders to effect the change. 

1. Gun control is very complicated. Look at our laws. I mentioned in the other thread an example; you can go shooting targets at your hunting cabin with a gun that shoots anti-aircraft /anti-armored vehicle bullets but you would face jail time for using a .22 (barely strong enough to hunt rabits) that *looks* like an M16. But using size gun that doesn't look scary is perfectly fine.

2. That same science shows that in the US anytime gun control was instituded, homicide rates increased. States that have CCW permits have less crime rates than states that don't. Most gun control measures aren't enacted based off science or facts but rather appearences and trying to appease two polarized voting groups.

3. That's your opinion and I respect that but I totally disagree. Hunting. Sport shooting. Target practice. Self-defense. Collecting. a lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of the military and police being the only citizens who own firearms.

4. Gun control isn't over due, there are just many forms of it in various degrees.  In Canada one of our forms of gun control is to limit handgun magazines from the common 15 bullets to 10 bullets. Roof still killed 9 people. 

5. I agree. We need courageous political leaders who are willing to do more than put bandaid solutions on problems and try to make both camps happy and save as many votes as they can.  Making it legal to use 10 rounds in a gun instead of 15, or to only legally shoot at a range instead of somewhere else doesn't save lives.  Gun control should control who has access to firearms.

Oh, another thing, when you have a major news network like Fox News going 24/7 preaching hatred what do you expect?

Do people not realize how effective advertising is? 

Gun control would have stopped Mr Roof from getting the gun that killed those 9 innocent good people - there is no doubt about it.

alan smithee wrote:

 

What would have stopped him? Look at the little dweeb,without a gun he'd be physically taken care of easily,very easily. So what's your point?

If he can reach a gas pedal then he can shoot a 2000lb bullet.  I'm not so sure he would be harmless if he was swinging around a knife or machette or something, that seems like a dangerous assumption.

NorthReport wrote:

Oh, another thing, when you have a major news network like Fox News going 24/7 preaching hatred what do you expect?

Do people not realize how effective advertising is?

Very true! They know that they can make a statement and become infamous since they see people doing it and their names, lives and guns they used splashed all across the media.

Quote:

Gun control would have stopped Mr Roof from getting the gun that killed those 9 innocent good people - there is no doubt about it.

Unless he buys it illegally. Or steals it.  I think you mean banning all firearms and not gun control, in which case banning all firearms would have stopped him. Unless he buys it ilegally.

Confederate flag debate heats up in Republican presidential race

Rpublican presidential candidates continued to struggle Sunday over how to respond to last week's mass shooting of nine black parishioners at a historic Charleston, S.C., church, particularly over the issue of whether the state should remove the Confederate battle flag from its Capitol.

Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee told NBC’s “Meet the Press" that his fellow GOP presidential candidates were being “baited” with a question that a future commander-in-chief should not have to address.

“People want their president to be focused on the economy, keeping America safe, some really big issues for the nation,” he said. “I don't think they want us to weigh in on every little issue in all 50 states that might be an important issue to the people of that state but not on the desk of the president. ... I don't personally display it anywhere. So it's not an issue for me.”

His comments were echoed by two other 2016 GOP hopefuls, Sens. Ted Cruz of Texas and Marco Rubio of Florida, who both said the issue should be left to South Carolinians.

The killing Wednesday of nine people in Charleston rekindled the longstanding disgust many feel about the flag being officially flown on state property. South Carolina's Republican primary comes early in the presidential election cycle and the Confederate flag has been an issue in previous primaries.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-confederate-flag-election-20150620-s...

NorthReport wrote:

 

“People want their president to be focused on the economy, keeping America safe, some really big issues for the nation,” he said. “I don't think they want us to weigh in on every little issue in all 50 states that might be an important issue to the people of that state but not on the desk of the president. ... I don't personally display it anywhere. So it's not an issue for me.”

His comments were echoed by two other 2016 GOP hopefuls, Sens. Ted Cruz of Texas and Marco Rubio of Florida, who both said the issue should be left to South Carolinians.

Keeping America safe by arming the populace to the teeth?

Does this go for marijuana too?

Fucking hypocrites but I got to hand it to them,you can't shake their ideology. Close your eyes.it can't happen here..blah,blah.

In a SANE world , these clowns would be laughed off the face of the planet.

And look at idiot Cameron in the UK who wants to get out of the EC.

What is it about the white English speaking culture that we cannot function with any other culture on the planet?

I wonder what the Germans are thinking now.

We Were Never Meant to Survive: A Response to the Attack in Charleston

by Alicia Garza, one of the co-founders of Black Lives Matter.

Quote:

[On June 17, 2015], a 21-year-old white man named Dylann Storm Roof was arrested alive, suspected to be the gunman in this brutal and horrific tragedy. Roof went to the church and asked specifically for the pastor. He prayed with the congregation, and then after about an hour, he rose and said,

"I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go."

In the days following this one, many in the media will portray Roof as a mentally ill gunman with a troubled past who committed an isolated crime against an unsuspecting group of Black people. Facebook photos show Roof wearing a jacket with patches bearing the flag of apartheid South Africa. However, we at #BlackLivesMatter would assert that this is not, in fact, an isolated incident, but just one incident in a pattern of violence enacted against Black people in this country and around the world.

....

But where are the calls for accountability for those who taught a young white man to harbor such a serious hatred for Black people? Where is the accountability for a nation that has racism in its very DNA?

We, as a country, in the face of even more Black lives taken way before their time, have a choice to make. It is no longer a question of whether or not racism exists, nor is it a question of whether or not racism is an epidemic that plagues our very existence. The choice we have to make is whether or not we are willing to take it on in a real way.

Our lives, quite literally, depend on it.

“Allies,” the Time For Your Silence Has Expired

Quote:

As we reel from the horrific news out of Charleston, SC, in which nine people were killed and others wounded after a gunman opened fire during Bible study at Emanuel AME Church, the details we’re gathering in the aftermath all suggest that this was a hate crime. According to eye-witnesses, the shooter was lobbing accusations and generalizations about Black people and declared that what he was about to do (i.e. kill innocent worshipers) was necessary.

...

I remember when the news out of Ferguson, MO first came to us. I heard White friends and colleagues encourage each other to sit in a posture of listening. I honor that listening. I honor the desire to be in solidarity through understanding. I honor that they wanted to avoid any semblance of saviorism.

White allies, I thank you for your thoughtfulness in this regard. Now allow me to be your stopwatch; Time’s up.

...

At this point, I’m not interested in your listening. I think the danger in this listening posture is, while it seems like the mindful and conscientious thing to do, it can also be far too convenient. It’s a great way of doing nothing. 

...

I know you mean well, but what about your life demonstrates that you walk in solidarity with others who experience life differently from you because of their skin color, legal status, or sexual orientation? Please don’t call yourself my ally if your uncle’s racist jokes go unchecked in your presence. 

NorthReport wrote:

And look at idiot Cameron in the UK who wants to get out of the EC.

What is it about the white English speaking culture that we cannot function with any other culture on the planet?

I wonder what the Germans are thinking now.

Well, Norway, often held up as an example for a certain Canadian province to emulate, was never in the EU to begin with. So does that make them idiots?

Countries don't join the EU becuase they want  to partake in some multicultural world-beat love-in, they join because they think it will be to their economic benefit. If a country has found that they can be propsperous while saying "no thanks" to the EU, why shouldn't they pursue that path?

Quote:

I know you mean well, but what about your life demonstrates that you walk in solidarity with others who experience life differently from you because of their skin color, legal status, or sexual orientation? Please don’t call yourself my ally if your uncle’s racist jokes go unchecked in your presence. 

That's similar to what reactionary politicians and news outfits say about silent Muslims and terrorism isn't it?.  Apparently if they're silent it's like they're in cahoots or something.  Why, just the other day the UK's David Cameron harangued the kingdom’s Muslims over their silence regarding terrorism.  Beyond one's own children, is it really anyone's job to serve in a wider context by becoming an educator for their entire extended family?  Other than getting up and leaving if some racist sounding remark is vocalized at a family occasion, to what extent is anyone responsible for correcting that kind of speech when it occurs, and how broadly does this responsibility apply in the context of an extended family.  I can understand excluding certain people from one's social circle who are prone to making racist remarks, whether they are related or not, but to become the police of unacceptable thoughts and remarks is problematic.

Thanks Maysie for continuing to remind us what this is really about. 

First black female GOP representative Mia Love returning Holt donations

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/earl-holt-dylann-roof-2016-gop-do...

SJ, who said anything about collective guilt?

This is about not imaginging that because you and I are less likely of getting assaulted or killed because of our skin colour that we have no responsibility to act against this system

- and not pretending that we haven't all benefitted from it because of our status. I think part of the point of Maysie's quote is that the last thing they need is a bunch of weepy, guilty white people. We are no help at all if we don't stand up and act.

The Office of the Treaty Commissioner said it quite clearly WRT First Nations: "We are all Treaty People".

It might not be quite so formal when it comes to other people of colour, but it is still a racist system of which we are all a part, and which we alll should be doing something about.

alan smithee wrote:

 

That said,whites SHOULD feel guilty.

That depends. If all that comes of it is some people getting whiny and mopey about it, and others getting their back up, I'd say it is pretty unproductive.

I've got enough butchers in my family that I could slit my wrists if I wanted to indulge that self-indulgence, but I don't think it would help anyone.

I reserve my guilt for situations where I don't do as much as I can to change things here and now.

(edit)

And by the way, there is no white race, and liars, cheats and swindlers cut across all groups.

Not quite so simple, when you consider that a great number of the people now considered white in my part of the world - specifically slavic eastern europeans - werent' seen as white 100 years ago, along with a lot of mediterranean people, and Irish. And considering the many settler and Native people who were considered white because they could pass.

It really is a term that has more to do with power, appearance and dominance than race.

But we are drifting. And considering that we are talking about a terrorist murder, and that we have been steadily drifting off topic, we should probably try to keep this on point, out of respect, if nothing else.

NorthReport wrote:

Lindsey Graham to call for Confederate flag to come down

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/lindsey-graham-confederate-flag-c...

Took him a few days

On another note this thread is incredibily educational. I'm learning a lot about transgender and transracial issues.

President Obama uses "N" word and rightfully so, in the context used by him. Of course he is being attacked by the right and the racists for it.

So instead of addressing racism we are going to focus on the president's language. WTF!

Obama uses N-word, says we are 'not cured' of racism

President Barack Obama used the n-word during an interview released Monday to make a point that there's still plenty of room for America to combat racism.

"Racism, we are not cured of it. And it's not just a matter of it not being polite to say nigger in public," Obama said in an interview for the podcast "WTF with Marc Maron."

"That's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not. It's not just a matter of overt discrimination. Societies don't, overnight, completely erase everything that happened 200 to 300 years prior."

The jarring comment comes as the nation is engaged in a debate over the role of race after a white supremacist killed nine African-Americans last week in a historically black church in Charleston. They also reflect a growing willingness for Obama to discuss race during the final years of his presidency.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/barack-obama-n-word-race-relation...

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http://wonkette.com/589082/fox-news-race-experts-so-mad-obama-allowed-to...

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Desperate Republicans scrambling to prove that large swaths of their base aren’t racistBut even Ben Carson acknowledges that they're afraid "of offending a particular segment of the electorate"

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/22/desperate_republicans_scrambling_to_prov...

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/wal-mart-removing-confederate-flag-items-fro...

Unionist wrote:

Interesting how a gun fetishist has managed to turn this thread to shit. With the enabling collaboration of innocents. This makes one pessimistic about the possibilities for change in our society.

 

I demand the mods close this thread.

Gary - thank you indeed for an excellent article that we as a society keep sweeping under the rug.

Three black churches burned in the past five days:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/26/1396786/-3-Black-Churches-burnt...

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Three black churches burned in the past five days:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/26/1396786/-3-Black-Churches-burnt...

 

I'm not surprised. The racisim I continue to witness in the US, specifically the south, is just jaw dropping. It's like something out of a movie.