Reporter and Cameraman shot by tormented ex-colleague

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Paladin1

Slumberjack wrote:

Yes, i was being genuine with that question.  Mass shootings are no longer the rarity they once were.  They're quite commonplace in fact, and more often than not the target settings are where young people congregate, such as schools, theatres, or symbols like churches, courthouses, and media.  The trend vividly suggests that individuals who are so inclined seem determined to inflict as much harm as they can upon society itself.  Certainly we have seen more than enough examples, from one person or another of varying backgrounds, to suspect that society itself is responsible for spreading this type of contagion.  But while societies tend to create the conditions that give rise to events where the Blooms lash out in final acts of confused desperation, in my opinion it still remains the right of individuals and communities to provide for their own defence, whether that takes the form of armed guards or armed kindergarten teachers.  The problem in that event though, which no contingency plan can adequately address, is when the security guards and the kindergarten teachers are launched into a Bloomesque rage of their own.  In a society that turns out so few winners and plenty of losers, such as the capitalist ones where failure is common and violence gets worshipped like it does, you would need to employ guards to protect the innocents against their co-worker guards who crack under the strain of everyday life, and so on.

 

Agreed.  There seems to be a theme of people wanting to do as much harm as they can with as much publicity as possible. In this latest case he wantes to make a statement by putting it on facebook. I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened more.

People use the UK as an example of a country that's largely banned guns.  I'm reading violent crime in the UK has been on the rise and there is a knife attack every 4 minutes.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

[/quote]

 

 

People use the UK as an example of a country that's largely banned guns.  I'm reading violent crime in the UK has been on the rise and there is a knife attack every 4 minutes.

[/quote]

Bad example. The Brits love fist fighting and brawling,it's nothing new. Ever hear of 'hooligans' ?

The UK is Hooligan Island.

Mr. Magoo

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Bad example. The Brits love fist fighting and brawling,it's nothing new. Ever hear of 'hooligans' ?

All this says is that you can ban guns or not ban guns, but people will find a way.

China is another good example.  I don't know whether most Chinese don't own a gun because of strict gun control, or just the unaffordability of a Glock.  But they've pretty much invented "mass stabbings".

Timebandit Timebandit's picture
alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Facts won't move the gun fetishists.

Rev Pesky

One of the things that could be done is making gun owners buy liability insurance. A minimum policy of say, $10 million could be appropriate. then let the private sector deal with it.

Paladin1

alan smithee wrote:

Facts won't move the gun fetishists.

 

Albert Einstein said it best. "Facts on the internet are worth the paper they're printed on"

 

That's a great counter-argument Timbandit posted.  It looks like firearm related homicides did drop. More significantly it looks like there was a drastic reduction in firearm related suicides. Apparently you can even see the drastic difference in suicides between states that carried out the firearm confiscation faster than others.  I recall seeing counter-arguments to the facts put forward about the Austrailian gun ban I can dig up for you to ignore (just kidding....or am I?).  At quick glance I would suggest Austrailia is also in a unique geographical position that isn't subject to the paths of illegal guns North America is. 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/austral...

In December 2014 a gunman in Sydney took 18 hostages.   Related to this thread the gunman forced the hostaghes to make demands on a video then posted them to youtube.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

One incident in comparison to how many in the US? A ban may not play out exactly the same way in USA as it did in Australia, but it seems a good place to start. After we stop entertaining the conspiracy theory bullshit, of course.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Timebandit wrote:
One incident in comparison to how many in the US? A ban may not play out exactly the same way in USA as it did in Australia, but it seems a good place to start. After we stop entertaining the conspiracy theory bullshit, of course.

Count me in on that idea. There is no rational 'middle' to this issue. Hand guns and automatic weapons should seized and destroyed. period.

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:
One incident in comparison to how many in the US? A ban may not play out exactly the same way in USA as it did in Australia, but it seems a good place to start. After we stop entertaining the conspiracy theory bullshit, of course.

 

If Canada, or the US for that matter, decided to ban firearms do you think citizens should be paid compensation for the state taking their private property away or do you think people should just have their property confiscated?

 

A ban like that may be feasable in Canada. In the US it would lead to a lot of bloodshed when the police try to confiscate firearms from US citizens including current and ex- military and police as we seen in the Bundy Ranch standoff. If you watch videos of the stand off it starts with police rolling up like they own the place then quickly go on the defensive when they notice the couple hundred citizens with guns set up sniper over watch positions and overlapping fields of fire.

 

alan smithee wrote:

Timebandit wrote:
One incident in comparison to how many in the US? A ban may not play out exactly the same way in USA as it did in Australia, but it seems a good place to start. After we stop entertaining the conspiracy theory bullshit, of course.

Count me in on that idea. There is no rational 'middle' to this issue. Hand guns and automatic weapons should seized and destroyed. period.

Alan I'm having a hard time understanding your position. One one hand you're saying we need to ban handguns and automatic weapons (which are already banned) yet a few posts ago you admitted that you would shoot someone in the face if they insulted the passing of your daughter.

kropotkin1951

Many Canadians refused to even register their firearms. Of course in Canada guns are heavily regulated. 

Just like in Australia I am sure there will be no problem confiscating the arsenals of freedom loving Americans. LMAO

Paladin1

alan smithee wrote:

 

I currently live in a city that averages 30 homicides a year and that's for a population over 1 million. Most crime (money) related but not necessarily with a gun.

My city is pretty safe and I'd like it to stay that way.

 

30 homocides out of a million people seems pretty low to me, that does sound like a safe city for sure.

Out of those 30 do you know how many are with firearms, or out of those firearms how many are illegally owned firearms?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

 

Alan I'm having a hard time understanding your position. One one hand you're saying we need to ban handguns and automatic weapons (which are already banned) yet a few posts ago you admitted that you would shoot someone in the face if they insulted the passing of your daughter.

[/quote]

Ever heard that tepid song , If I Had A Rocket Launcher . some son of a bitch would die? That's my argument. If I lived in a city that was churning out 1 000 homicides a year with (for example 45% hand gun related, 5 % of which are automatic weapon related)That's still 450 dead from a bullet (s) a year. A lot of the major cities in the US have homicide rates that match or underestimate my estimation. I just might have shot someone losing my temper. Happens every day , along with other things (I suppose) ,some people like their new toys so much that they tend to use them at any oppurtunity. Yes,I'm pointing my finger on the US. That's daily life in America.We see it in news almost every day. They have a problem and everyone can spot the elephant in the room except for the gun nuts.

There's nothing 'radical' about basic background checks,possibly a license (like your car or your pick-up) and regulation but there is something radical about those that oppose this.

 

I currently live in a city that averages 30 homicides a year and that's for a population over 1 million. Most crime (money) related but not necessarily with a gun.

My city is pretty safe and I'd like it to stay that way.

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I'd say 30%..... almost always gang (money) related.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Paladin, the Australian model was a buy- out - I have no issue with compensation for people who are willing to comply. Kropotkin, some refused to register, but the process for our long gun registry was so Byzantine that some who tried just gave up. It would have been more successful if it hadn't been bureaucratically mishandled.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Some interesting visualizations here: http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2014/03/visualizing-gun-deaths-compa... Note that this is homicides, which would exclude suicide and accidental deaths.

Mr. Magoo

Venezuela passed a law in 2012 prohibiting the sale of guns.

Paladin1

Timebandit, they called it a buy out yes but owners didn't have a choice. It's really confiscation where they were thankfully paid for their property.  In Canada when we changed our gun laws in the late 90's Canadians had their property taken away and didn't recieve compensation for it.  I'd have to dig for it but I think the number of legally owned handguns used in homicide in Canada is something like 1% or 2%.  The Austrailians bought theirs back with some kind of tax, I wonder if people pushing for a gun ban in Canada would be cool with taxes taking a jump to support it.

 

I came across this article from the National Post.

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=87f79c5a-bb...

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This week, Chicago took over as murder capital of the United States. There are several cities that have higher murder rates per 100,000 population, but no city with more total murders.

Even with a population of just over 3 million, Chicagoans can expect more murders -- 500 -- in their city, than in New York (400 murders and 5 million population) or Los Angeles (300 murders and 3.8 million people).

Chicago is also the gun-confiscation and voluntary hand-in capital of the U. S. Over the past decade, Chicago police have confiscated or had surrendered to them an average of 10,800 guns per year. Chicago has also had a complete ban on handgun sales and possession since 1982.

The ban isn't working for them.

 

Also from the article.

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The second reason it is significant that StatsCan's revealed handgun murders have "more than doubled over the past 20 years," is that it has been the law in Canada since 1934 that all handguns be registered. Moreover, after the Liberals implemented their most recent controls in 1998, they confiscated nearly two-thirds of the legally held handguns in the country -- without paying their lawful owners a dime in compensation.

And yet, in Canada, handguns are far and away the most popular type of firearm used in murders.

A handgun is the weapon of choice in twice as many murders as all other gun types combined. In urban areas, according to StasCan, "81% of all firearm-related homicides were committed with a handgun."

If registration and confiscation worked, we would see it in our own handgun murder stats. Instead, we see what an utter failure it has been (and always will be) to take guns away from law-abiding Canadians.

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Re : Buy out - Right, it wasn't optional. The buy out was to soften the blow. Not sure why that's a problem. If you own something that has proven to be problematic to own without restrictions, them's the breaks. As far as Canada is concerned, if you were properly permitted, you didn't lose anything. BTW, I actually own a shotgun. If they told me to turn it in tomorrow because there were too many yahoos hurting people with them, I would comply without complant. It a case of suck it up for the greater good. My individual preference is not more important than the safety of my fellow citizens and neither is yours. Re: Chicago - it didn't work because it was too localized a ban. The failure proves nothing. They need a national strategy.

Mr. Magoo

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BTW, I actually own a shotgun. If they told me to turn it in tomorrow because there were too many yahoos hurting people with them, I would comply without complant.

With all due respect, why wait?  How many would be "too many"? 

Conversely, why would those "yahoos hurting people" get to use YOUR gun?

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My individual preference is not more important than the safety of my fellow citizens and neither is yours.

Are your fellow citizens in danger, and can you tell us more about that danger?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

No one is likely in any danger from me. I haven't even bought ammunition in literally decades. It's a keepsake, a gift from my father when I was a kid, so I have it because of an odd sentimental reason. But it isn't about me or my specific firearm. The problem arises when too many other owners of firearms constitute a problem, and like a number of other areas of law, bylaw and public health policy, the idiots out there ruin it for everyone. Human nature is a bitch. Now, I don't think my little bird gun is in danger of being outlawed, but when it comes to things like automatics and handguns, I question why even hobbyists should have them. They are a tool designed to kill humans. I don't buy the libertarian argument that you should be allowed to own such an item because you like them and you declare yourself trustworthy.

Mr. Magoo

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No one is likely in any danger from me. I haven't even bought ammunition in literally decades. It's a keepsake, a gift from my father when I was a kid, so I have it because of an odd sentimental reason.

I hear you.  I received a .22 bolt-action repeater when I was 10, and a 12 -gauge Remington Wingmaster when I was 14.  A friend from highschool has has the .22 for the last 31 years, and a cousin has had the shotgun for the last 27.  Old history.

But why would you hand over a gun that you believe is no danger to others because of someone else's choices?  I totally don't disbelieve that a gun is no hazard in your hands, so why shouldn't you be allowed to own it, for sentimental reasons or whatever other reasons?   Because some other person can't be similarly responsible?

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Now, I don't think my little bird gun is in danger of being outlawed, but when it comes to things like automatics and handguns, I question why even hobbyists should have them. They are a tool designed to kill humans.

Okay, but what about your non-automatic, non-handguns?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

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Because some other person can't be similarly responsible?

Yes. Part of the social contract is recognizing when the larger social good outweighs your individual preference. I am fine with that.

Mr. Magoo

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Yes. Part of the social contract is recognizing when the larger social good outweighs your individual preference. I am fine with that.

Well, I've said before we could save many more lives by banning the sale and consumption of alcohol.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Yes. Part of the social contract is recognizing when the larger social good outweighs your individual preference. I am fine with that.

Well, I've said before we could save many more lives by banning the sale and consumption of alcohol.

Again. Comparing something people choose to consume to handguns and automatic firearms is apples and oranges. Why would anyone need possession of such weapons that were manufactured SOLELY for the purpose of murdering other humans....in numbers?

They are weapons of war. Why the fuss over background checks and licenses (registry)? You're law abiding,what do you have to worry about?

Mr. Magoo

I'm not disagreeing with background checks or paperwork at all.  But that's gun control "centrism".

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Again. Comparing something people choose to consume to handguns and automatic firearms is apples and oranges.

I wasn't saying they're the same thing.  I'm saying that if part of the social contract is that we should give up something if it's shown to cause harm (even if it doesn't cause harm when we use it), and if it's all about saving lives, it would make sense to prohibit the sale of alcohol.  Would you agree?  I'm not asking you to agree that a beer and a Glock are the same thing.  I'm asking whether you agree that we could save lives -- and many more of them -- by banning alcohol instead of or in addition to banning guns.

If never having another beer could save some lives, would you be down with that?  Or if not, why not?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Prohibition already proved that point. Fact is, you can manufacture your own booze (we have 3 batches of mead fermenting in the cellar right now), people did and organized crime got involved. Plus, the main purpose of alcohol is not to kill, while that's the intended purpose of a firearm. i think it's a bit of an apples to orangutans argument you're making. Too many degrees of difference for the analogy to be useful.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Plus, the main purpose of alcohol is not to kill, while that's the intended purpose of a firearm.

How do you reconcile this with owning or ever having used a firearm?

Did you TRY to kill, and miss?  And how do those Biathletes never seem to kill ANYTHING?

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Fact is, you can manufacture your own booze

Fact is, you can manufacture your own gun.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

The tool is for killing. The level of skill of the user doesn't change that. Ever try to hammer a nail, miss and either gouge the wood or bend the nail? Doesn't mean the hammer isn't for bending nails. And of course, you understand that biathlon has its roots in warfare, right? (Although I'd have chosen biathlon over volleyball in a heartbeat when I was in school and woulda been a star athlete.)

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
The tool is for killing.

So... we were both using it wrong all this time??

I used to shoot at the YMCA in Sarnia.  I suppose the blood of a few hundred paper bullseye targets is on my hands, but I'm embarrased at the idea that I was supposed to shoot one of my buddies and, like a numpty, didn't.  FFS, why didn't our instructor tell us what guns are REALLY for??

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And of course, you understand that biathlon has its roots in warfare, right?

It was such a more interesting event when the targets were humans.

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(Although I'd have chosen biathlon over volleyball in a heartbeat when I was in school and woulda been a star athlete.)

You're complex.  You contain multitudes.  And this is kind of why I'm still here discussing this.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I shot birds. They were pretty darned dead. I don't know what you were up to, but I practiced and when I was skilled enough I hunted. Which involves killing thugs, usually with a gun (the tool of choice). Regarding biathlon - I'm a damned good shot - Dad made sure I was before he let me shoot at birds because a clean shot is less cruel - and I could x country ski like blazes when I was a kid. I've always regretted not giving it a go. ;)

Mr. Magoo

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I don't know what you were up to, but I practiced and when I was skilled enough I hunted. Which involves killing thugs, usually with a gun (the tool of choice).

I was mostly a hardcore, pop-can killa.

But I did kill a couple of other warm-blooded animals with my real weapon of choice, a single-shot .177 air rifle.  I "helped" a friend dispatch a squirrel that he assured me had been marauding his mother's bird feeder, and I popped a cap in the ass of a starling on a hydro wire by the railroad track in Bright's Grove, as a bet with my cousin.  Bird just flipped right over the wire, still holding on, and then after a long moment, fell.

And how shitty I felt after each is pretty much why I never took my shot at Cecil the lion.  But to be very clear, I totally don't judge hunters; I just recognize that I'm probably not cut out to be one.

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Regarding biathlon - I'm a damned good shot - Dad made sure I was before he let me shoot at birds because a clean shot is less cruel

I'll bet he also taught you that you either gut, clean and eat a fish or you gently put it back.  I got the same good speech. 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

"Things" not "thugs". Goddam autocorrect. Phone posting sucks.

Paladin1

alan smithee wrote:

 

Again. Comparing something people choose to consume to handguns and automatic firearms is apples and oranges. Why would anyone need possession of such weapons that were manufactured SOLELY for the purpose of murdering other humans....in numbers?

They are weapons of war. Why the fuss over background checks and licenses (registry)? You're law abiding,what do you have to worry about?

 

Suggesting firearms are manufactured soley for the purpose of murdering other humans isn't accurate. Many are designed for competition shooting and target practice.

I do agree comparing them is apples and oranges.  I do my best not to compare them but that said alcohol is responsible for 10 times the amount of deaths in Canada than firearms. I would bet it's even more than that.

 

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Regardless, firearms are weapons. They were invented as a killing tool. To try and obfuscate that origin and purpose is disingenuous.

Slumberjack

Yes, that's what they were intended for of course, killing, there's no doubt about that.  Which is why monopolies on gun ownership, restricted to mafia/criminal elements who obey no rules concerning restrictions, the state, the police, etc, seems like such a bad idea.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

And yet, that hasn't been the case in Australia or the UK, who both have much lower rates of gun deaths than we do in Canada. 

Slumberjack

In the UK gun ownership was more or less confined to the gentry, for their fox hunts, for protecting their walled off estates from being trespassed upon by the commoners, etc.  It's not something the general population were imbued with as a right.  Australia, as a former penal colony, would not have cultivated the notion of popular gun ownership and use for historically obvious reasons.  Different regions have different traditions.  The entire planet doesn't have to conform to the same ways of thinking.  People should be less afraid of a hunk of metal that can fire bullets than the way society indoctrinates people toward violence in all of its manifestations, including with guns.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Nevertheless, indoctrination isn't the topic here, gun deaths are.  It's not about whether one is scarier than the other, it's about preventing deaths by firearm. 

Australia had a much more open gun culture than Canada does.  They rectified that and deaths went down - by your lights, doing what they did "seems like a bad idea".  And yet the outcome was positive.  I think maybe you are mistaken in your assessment. 

ETA: You are right that not everyone on the planet needs to think alike.  However, I think it's a mistake not to extrapolate from what works in other places to inform decisions about how we do things.  Rather than continue to make the same old mistakes, why not take a note from someone else's experience?

Slumberjack

I'm often mistaken, just like anyone else.  It seems like the Australian state imposed restrictions and people complied.  I would say a gun culture developed and the state felt it needed to emphasize that in order to act.  If a country offered its citizens fewer examples of systemic violence emanating from the corporate state, there might be scope for discussion about general gun ownership.  I don't know how Australia managed that, being as it is.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I think there's more work to do than a gun ban, but I don't see the point in putting off a ban in deference to an objective that is less defined, many-faceted and will take a significant amount of time to accomplish.

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:
Regardless, firearms are weapons. They were invented as a killing tool. To try and obfuscate that origin and purpose is disingenuous.

 

They definitely were invented as killing tools. I don't prescribe to the notion that they're "just tools" to be compared with hammers (but to point out there was an FBI study in 2014 and hammers and fists killed more people in the US than rifles).

We sell alcohol to Canadians with the presumption that they will be drink responsibly. We tell them to drink responsible and spend money on advertising and campaigns about it. At the end of the day it comes down to the persons decision.  It's basically the same with firearms however generally speaking I can go shooting all day long and nothing will come of it. If I, or anyone else, went drinking all day long theres a much bigger chance of me being an asshole or doing something irresponsible, don't you think? We need only look at how many people have "a few drinks" and decide to get behind the wheel of a car. The thing with alcohol is after a few drinks people stop thinking as clearly and it gets progressively worse.  

 

I'm actually for gun control. I dislike that phrase but I haven't found a better one yet. The difference is my view of gun control isn't trying to mitigate shooting rampages by limiting magazines from 15 bullets to 10 or by banning certian firearms because of how scary they look.   You're familiar with a .22 caliber rifle correct? The RCMP just banned a .22 rifle because it looks like an AK47. That's not even it's origional form, it's an after market kit that you put on the rifle to make it look that way, absolutely nothing of the function is changed.

To compare it to cars the RCMP just banned  you from having a Honda Civic with a body kit that makes it look like a porshe. That doesn't save lives.

I have young children in school so preventing school violence and the 'disgrunteled school shooter' is top on my list but I don't believe for a second forcing you to turn in your 12GA bird gun or .22 caliber pop-can blaster will save lives. 

The pistol this man used to murder his co-workers was legally owned. There is an estimated 400 million guns in the US and 7 to 10 Million guns in Canada if I remember correctly.   If North American banned guns tomorrow criminals wouldn't turn in their guns. I suspect many citizens who legally own firearms wouldn't turn them in either. We need to start looking at the bigger picture.

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

The "criminals wouldn't turn in their weapons" gambit is a red herring.  Too many guns = too many deaths.  A dearth of guns for all will also make them, in the long run, less available to those who would acquire them illegally.

(I think you mean "ascribe" rather than "prescribe", and yes, firearms are a tool.  Definition of tool: a device or implement, especially to be held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.)

I'm okay with banning a .22 that looks like an AK47.  The calibre of the gun itself is beside the point - it's the ethos that makes it desirable to have any firearm that looks "dangerous" that is being discouraged.  I also don't like the idea of law enforcement officers having to make a judgment call based on not being able to readily identify what they're dealing with.  It's a goddam stupid idea.  So yeah, I'm okay with that. 

I also don't care what you "believe".  There's evidence that a ban works.  You've got objections and "logic" of a sort.  I think we should go with the evidence.

I'm also not going down the rabbit hole with the booze analogy, for reasons I've already articulated. Foodstuffs are not the same as firearms - it's not even apples to oranges, it's kumquats to comets.

Paladin1

I was going to critisize Alan in another thread about deciding laws didn't apply to him and being okay with smashing campaign signs but being honest if I was ordered to turn in all my firearms I would probably only turn in the ones the police know about (ie handguns).

I agree banning all firearms would reduce the number of firearms criminals have access to via theft from home owners but I don't think it would really make all that much of a difference. Talking about theft the Toronto police chief had to admit a couple years ago that over 400 guns disapeared from the police  evidence lockup in TO.

Banning something based soley on looks is ridiclous. It's no different than racial profiling.

The evidence the ban works is counter-weighed against the evidence it doesn't, as seen in Chicago- toughtest in gun control and murder capital of the US.

We're evolving scientifically to the point where I can use a 3D printer and print a gun at my kitchen table. We need a new, different approach to curbing violence.

Instead of trying to force a gunman to use 10 bullets instead of 15 or making them pay twice as much money for illegal guns on the street wouldn't it be better to try and figure out why these people feel their last resort is to goto a school and kill children? Or for people to murder their coworkers and upload it on facebook?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Oh, wow.  So much to unpack here...

Paladin1 wrote:

I was going to critisize Alan in another thread about deciding laws didn't apply to him and being okay with smashing campaign signs but being honest if I was ordered to turn in all my firearms I would probably only turn in the ones the police know about (ie handguns).

Which would be spectacularly bad planning and reinforces my opinion that most people shouldn't own guns.

Quote:
I agree banning all firearms would reduce the number of firearms criminals have access to via theft from home owners but I don't think it would really make all that much of a difference. Talking about theft the Toronto police chief had to admit a couple years ago that over 400 guns disapeared from the police  evidence lockup in TO.

Except that in Australia it did make a significant difference.  So, once again, we are juxtaposing an uninformed and unsupported opinion on an evidence-based opinion. 

It doesn't matter what you think.

That the TO police service needs better systems has little to no bearing on the evidence.

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Banning something based soley on looks is ridiclous. It's no different than racial profiling.

You are not seriously comparing restrictions on weapons to endemic racism, are you?

Or were you just giving us an illustration of what ridiculous looks like?

Please re-read my answer as to why, actually, it makes good sense not to have one sort of gun masquerading as another and the larger cultural context that might exist in.  If you need help, sing out, we'll see if we can walk you through it.

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The evidence the ban works is counter-weighed against the evidence it doesn't, as seen in Chicago- toughtest in gun control and murder capital of the US.

Asked and answered.  Too local.  Anyone wanting a firearm just had to take a short drive outside the city where firearms were still readily available.  A national ban is the only level where this would work.  Do we have an example of that?  Oooooh, let's see.....  Could it be.....  AUSTRALIA?????

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We're evolving scientifically to the point where I can use a 3D printer and print a gun at my kitchen table. We need a new, different approach to curbing violence.

Let's start with the ones that exist now and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Quote:
Instead of trying to force a gunman to use 10 bullets instead of 15 or making them pay twice as much money for illegal guns on the street wouldn't it be better to try and figure out why these people feel their last resort is to goto a school and kill children? Or for people to murder their coworkers and upload it on facebook?

Or the guy who has a handgun he only ever uses at the range because he's a law-abiding citizen and some rounds of ammunition and his girlfriend breaks up with him and he's totally distraught...  Oh, wait. 

I agree about only 10 vs 15 being pointless.  Let's ban the device that fires them.  Problem solved.

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:

 

Which would be spectacularly bad planning and reinforces my opinion that most people shouldn't own guns.

Hardly reinforcement that people shouldn'town guns but your opinion none the less.

Quote:

Except that in Australia it did make a significant difference.  So, once again, we are juxtaposing an uninformed and unsupported opinion on an evidence-based opinion.

Chicago still has the toughest gun control in the US and the highest murder rate, many of those homicides with fireams. How can that even happen if guns are banned?

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It doesn't matter what you think.

You keep saying that. Why bother responding then?

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That the TO police service needs better systems has little to no bearing on the evidence.

An example that removing firearms from citizens won't mean they're off the street. The TO police doesn't need a better system they need better ethics and integrity.

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You are not seriously comparing restrictions on weapons to endemic racism, are you?

Or were you just giving us an illustration of what ridiculous looks like?

Yes and no. Assuming a gun is more dangerous because it's black is dumb in my books.  Letting the RCMP decide what is legal and what's not based on looks is a slippery slope. Maybe your car looks too fast, dangerous to the greater good time for a new slower looking one.

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Please re-read my answer as to why, actually, it makes good sense not to have one sort of gun masquerading as another and the larger cultural context that might exist in.  If you need help, sing out, we'll see if we can walk you through it.

I get it. You're starting to get emotional and make snide comments. If you don't feel like discussing this like a mature adult save yourself the stress and just don't reply. 

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Asked and answered.  Too local.  Anyone wanting a firearm just had to take a short drive outside the city where firearms were still readily available.  A national ban is the only level where this would work.  Do we have an example of that?  Oooooh, let's see.....  Could it be.....  AUSTRALIA?????

And firearms were banned in the UK and we simply see people using knives, to the tune of one stabbing every 4 minutes. 

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Let's start with the ones that exist now and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Or we can address why this stuff happens and how to combat it in a larger scale and we won't need to worry about crossing that bridge in the future.

 

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I agree about only 10 vs 15 being pointless.  Let's ban the device that fires them.  Problem solved.

Problem solved like pistols banned in Chicago. Check. 

If your stance is that all firearms should be banned from civilian owner ship then that's great but it doesn't leave much room for debate on practical fixes so I guess thanks for your views.

Mr. Magoo

I can't deny wondering:  suppose Canada did decide to ban all private gun ownership, and confiscated/bought back millions of rifles, shotguns and so on.

What if we still had gun crime (and I have zero doubt that we would).  Then what?  I'm not really interested in facile answers like "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" or "let's start with the banning and worry about the rest later" or whatever.  But what do you suppose we would do if banning private ownership of guns doesn't really solve the problem?

If an outright gun ban is Plan A, what's Plan B?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

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I get it. You're starting to get emotional and make snide comments. If you don't feel like discussing this like a mature adult save yourself the stress and just don't reply.

Don't be a sexist git.

You're ignoring several valid, key points.  Again, Chicago doesn't wash - I notice you bring it up twice in your responses, but do not include my rebuttal (again, asked and answered, a local ban is not the same as a national ban and will always be less effective.)  If you want to start giving lessons on responding to posts like a mature adult, start there. 

And again, if cultural context and making a gun look more dangerous is too difficult a concept for you, just say so.

You've no evidence for your opinion. 

Mr. Magoo

If Chicago is a bad example because all a criminal has to do to get a gun is go to a neighbouring city, then I'm not sure Australia is a great example either.  Who does Australia share a border with??

The vast majority of Canadians live along our border with the U.S.  What percentage of handguns used in crimes in Canada even originated in Canada?  Anyone got a statistic for that?  Because if banning guns in Canada is supposed to fix things, I don't think it's unreasonable or unscientific to ask whether it's legally owned "Canadian" guns causing the crime.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Right.  But since the OP is about an American incident, I think the initial discussion was about a US ban.  Which would be an excellent idea.

Unless Donald gets to build his wall, in which case it's moot.

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